Personal experience leads me to conclude that ALL components, including conductors (PC & others) contribute a sonic signature. We could say that we all wish the system's sonic result should exceed the sum of the parts. IMO PCs fall into the same category. However, our perception of sonic results (better, worse, etc) depend upon,
a) system
b) how we want to hear reproduced music, as Detlof noted in another thread.
As Redkiwi notes above, the name of the game is *reproduction*, a simulation of reality -- the simulation that best "moves" us into being virtually there. Virtually.
PC vs. price: A $3k /1,5 m PC performed poorly (for the price) in my modest system. Pls note, modest (in a more revealing system?). The same manufacturer's $8K / 1,5m (!!) PC blew three of us out of the room. |
I find myself in general agreement Mmccoy. There are indeed diminishing returns beyond the competent cables such as Synergistic Research AC Master Coupler etc. But there are also different flavours of sound to be had. And these reasonably priced cables do have compromises - eg. some eliminate noise well but add warmth and diminish dynamics to some extent. We will never get the identical sound of the real thing at home, and we all have different values on the next small step along the way. |
Mmccoy, that's a tough question in that I've found a $500 cord (BMI Whale) has bettered quite a few $1500-2000 cords. I've also found on certain equipment a $3000 cord is so much better that it's worth finding at a lesser price. Not only are some cords excellant values and some just names, but my experience proves equipment matching to the cord is equally important. The only way to prove the need on your own system is experimenting with different cords.
Happy listening, and enjoy the music!
J.D. |
Just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, I'm not of the opinion that stock power cords are in every case 'totally sufficient' and a system cannot benefit from a better quality cable, e.g. I can certainly wholeheartedly agree that anything that might lower resistance, improve mechanical connection & reduce potential interference, etc. beyond what the current cable provides (no pun intended) is a good thing.
Rather, I'm just thinking there has to be a point of diminishing returns... that once you reach a certain minimum/maximum level of achieving the above any further effort is simply beating a dead horse. That is, in all seriousness can a $1500-2000 (retail) power cable provide that much improvement over a $500 (retail) one to warrant the difference in cost?
Of course my simplistic view doesn't take into account the 'psychology' inherent in audiophiles that creates the ever present quest to achieve totally perfect sound reproduction . And I thus suppose the point at which an audiophile begins to 'beat a dead horse' is, bottom line, only dictated by his/her budget. My hats off to those that can pursue this 'ultimate goal' with a system budget that (in more than a few cases) exceeds the cost of my house ;) |
I experienced a significant improvement with my Soundlab speakers using audiophile power cords.
These speakers, like the Quads, require AC to operate. The first time the discussion concerning expensive replacement power cords was raised, I rejected it outright. My assumption was that with a power requirement of only one eight of an amp, the extra carrying capacity, geometry and quality of copper could not possibly help the performance.
The end result of my experimentation was that the superior power cables provided equal or greater performance for my Soundlabs, as they did on my preamp and amps. I do not claim to have an explanation for this, but obviously there is something more to this than just delivering 120V from the wall to the component. |
Hi Frap. Thanks for the help - I hope Mmccoy realises we are trying to help, not beat him into submission. Good PCs on electrostatic speakers do indeed have a significant effect, in my repeated experience. The standard cords sound as if detail has been smoothed over, there is an upper midrange ringing, and the soundstage shrinks. The ringing problem can be reduced by using RF blocking capsules on the power cord, but it does not improve the other issues. |
Red & Greg, two excellent posts. I have an even more severe test for you Mmccoy. Take solid core 14/2 or 12/2 Romex and attach the appropriate male/female IEC ends, and compare that to your stock 16/2 or 16/3 stranded PC. You should immidiately hear some pretty big differences in sound. Usually, brighter, glassier and harder than the stock cord. Of, course this is also bad sound, but should be sufficient enough for anyone to hear, and therefore know this is a real occurence. Perhaps Red or Greg have also tried this in the past. The PC that showed me the light, was manufactured by the now defunct, DISCRETE TECHNOLOGY company. When the stock PCs on QUAD ESL-63s were replaced with this, the speaker became a legend to my ears, back in 1985 or so..........Frank |
Mmccoy. I cannot help thinking you are falling into a trap that many or perhaps all of us have fallen into from time to time, and that some here seem to be utterly captured by. It is important in any endeavour like ours to have some basis for guessing which direction might lead to progress with enjoying reproduced music. This means we naturally develop theories. The trap I refer to is believing that our prevailing theories are sufficient and complete that we need to do no more than deduce knowledge from them. My experience does not support your deductions that power supplies render power cord quality as redundant, nor your conclusions that the sound difference must be small, nor the conclusion that at 53 you would not hear the difference.
In the end you must decide whether the many here that agree with me have sufficient credibility with you to cause you to try some decent power cords. I was sceptical when I first tried a decent power cord but was open minded enough to give it a try and just listen - in my case, not expecting to hear anything at all different. What I have found is that the difference between different power cords is very similar to the difference between speaker cables in my system. Depending on your perspective this is either a lot, not much, or nothing at all. For me, it is a lot.
Therefore I am happy to spend a similar amount on power cords as I have spent on my speaker cables. If you think I am just deluded by marketing, then I would add that the first decent power cord I tried, was before I ever saw any advertisement or review or recommendation for esoteric power cords. My local dealer simply handed two to me and said "try these and tell me what you think". Believe me, I have tried lots of his suggestions and returned the kit later and told him what a load of junk they were. |
Mmccoy, an inexpensive test worked for me: buy a piece of heavy gauge double insulation cord (flexible, of a kind used in industrial applications) an IEC and a wall plug. Make a pc out of it (you may connect the shielding on the wall socket end and leave bare on the other, if you wish). Connect this cord to a piece in your chain that would easily reveal differences (if any are perceived) with stock cord -- say, the pre. Give your new pc time to settle in the system, "burn in" if you will.
The excercise will cost little and, if rejected from audio, the cord can be used happily for other household items.
Cheers! |
You hit the nail on the head redkiwi (re: my assumption that the only purpose of a power cord is to transfer volts and current from the wall to the component). I certainly don't mean to appear snide whatsoever, but what other purpose does a power cord serve?
Thus my unsophisticated observation that beyond gauge and mechanical connection, everything else might be, umm... great marketing?
Beyond that, I could definately see how noise shielding might be beneficial even tho, as others apparently have before me, my own 'logic' surmises the components power supply should rectify (no pun intended) any potential problems in this area. And I would think certainly so if the component is considered high end, audiophile quality.
Unfortunately it's a moot point for me. At 53 yoa I doubt my poor ol ears could discern what would have to be very subtle differences in sound quality. I just wanted to better understand how/why someone would pay up to $2K for a power cable.
In any case, whether real or perceived, I envy you and others that CAN hear a difference in reproduced music simply by changing a power cord. |
I will try to help you Fpeel, but have no more real understanding than you of what is going on. Mmccoy, the scepticism in your question seems to spring from an assumption that the only purpose of a power cord is to transfer volts and current from the wall to the component. If that were so then I reckon I would be with you on this one, and a few years ago felt the same way. In much playing with power cords I have come to believe that you can tailor the sound to some degree with use of different geometry (at least) and seems to be through manipulating resonance of some sort. I have first-hand experience of making power cords perform this trick. Secondly, cable geometry and shielding can reduce noise. I theorise that we are talking about harmonics in the audio band, caused by high frequency noise getting onto the line. Neither the harmonic issue or the RF or EMI noise issue are controversial, but it appears that the nay-sayers believe that the components' power supplies will do this job much better than a few feet of cable will and so disbelieve that it happens. In the end, you need to listen to a few power cords and decide for yourself whether or not there is a difference. The majority of nay-sayers on this site with respect to this subject do not appear to have done that. |
Mmccoy, that's a fair question, but one that's been answered in detail a number of times. To save you a bit of research, the short answer is, and please understand this comes from a non-techie, the differences lay in the shield configuration, conductor size and construction, quality and types of materials and workmanship, and, in some cases the additional components (i.e., filter materials, also called "magic dust"). None of that is to say I personally buy into the mega-price cable story, BUT I also do not have first hand experience with extremely expensive power cords. Certain of the claims do, on the surface, make sense. My ears say upgraded cables do make a difference, though. My only question is where does the "improvement curve" drop off into silliness, if it actually does? Hope that's helpful on some level.
BTW, if any of that is grossly erroneous, guys, please correct it. I try to pay attention, but don't always get it right. |
OK, my first post here so be gentle ;)
Pardon my ignorance. I may have missed the answer but 'logic' dictates that super esoteric (read VERY expensive) power cables would not make a difference for one (IMHO) simple reason:
Indeed I could see how ensuring the mechanical contact (on either end) is as good as possible but otherwise what difference would the last 5-6 feet of '6 ga multi-stranded platinum alloy, laser end cut terminated in pure 24ct gold' power cables make when the previous power feed (up to the aforementioned 'super' cable) is nothing more than run of the mill 3 strand bulk romex? |
Jhunter and Kjg, I am also in the San Jose area. Would the two of you be interested in dropping by for an afternoon of listening? If so please drop me a message with your contact info. No tests will be given or taken; don't need the stress. We could do it in a couple of weeks or so as I'm just getting settled into a new place. This invitation also applies to other interested Bay Area residents, too.
Frank Peel |
Jhunter, if anyone criticises you for posting what you hear, then the RHUBARB cavalry will be on your side. |
I have to say, this thread is *far and away* the most passionate, thoughtful (well, most of the time), and interesting thread I've read on this site (and there have been many). Thanks to all of you for playing a part in it and allowing a great number of us to listen in.
Jhunter: I'm in your area and would love to provide my ears to the experiment if you're willing. Prior to this discussion, I was rather in your camp about power cords (using stock cords myself), but have to admit my interest has definitely been peaked. Give me a holler if you'd like some skeptical, but reasonably open minded company. I'll be happy to bring down my cords and see how they fair against rest.
Thanks again to all for the both the information and entertainment.
Cheers,
Ken |
jhunter, *no* one should ridicule or condemn ewe - ewe, sir, have an open mind. regards, doug s. |
Jhunter, I can assure you from my view you will not be attacked for trying, that's all any of us have asked for. I support your test and will accept your findings for what they are, education. |
Albert -
Thanks for setting this up; I'll contact you separately with the details. It'll be interesting and educational; of course, I run the fairly high risk of ridicule from one side or the other depending on the findings. Either I'll be accused of terrible hearing (if I don't hear anything) or improper testing (if I do). I'll do my best to insure that neither is the case, but it will have meaning for me irrespective of the outcome.
Cheers,
JHunter |
Thank-you Albert, you are a great person! I look forward to your report Jhunter. |
this is *great*!!! i *love* it!!! now, all we need is for 702 & stevemj to agree to try 'em... doug s. |
Jhunter. I just spoke to Jim Aud of Purist Audio Design. Jim has graciously offered the (temporary) loan of a Dominus Power cord for your testing. If you will contact me via the Audiogon e-mail system, and give me your physical address, the cable will be sent directly to you freight prepaid.
I will most likely get my Acrotec cables back this next Tuesday, and I will ship them separately. |
Albert, Jadem6 -
OK, I'll bite. Could you two get together and figure out, say, 2 cords the most likely to differ from stock? I'm willing to listen to them, first sighted and then blind, and will report back the results (and return the PCs, maybe . . .). Might have a chance to pick up a PC from Bruce, but would like to keep the total to a reasonable number.
Cheers,
Jhunter |
While not cable related, an an anecdotal exchange occurred this past weekend that gives an interesting bit of insight into how some people's training is almost akin to brainwashing.
A couple of friends helped move my large items like furniture to a new place. My system had been moved and set up a week ago, though it is still going through fine tuning for the room.
Both of these friends are mechanical engineers. Rex is a vibration control expert who's into home theatre. We've had many a lengthy, often times spirited, exchange on equipment. Rex is, for the most part, a non-believer in tweaks and cables (after a point). This was the first time he's heard my system. John, as I've described before, is an acomplished musician and has spent many an hour in my living room listening to music. He knows my system almost as well as me.
The work finished we settled in for a couple of beers and a demo for Rex' benefit. Unrelated, but I found it interesting that Rex, Mr. HT, found it necessary to drive the volume far beyond what the room would handle. Not just as a test of its limits, but as a chosen listening level. He did exhibit a good ear by pointing out a shifting image in the soundstage I hadn't found yet.
Anyway, at one point Rex picked up a spare set of Black Diamond Racing cones that were lying next to the rack. The gist of the commentary was that all tweaks are "snake oil", that nothing in his training allowed that they could possibly do anything to effect the production of sound. He and John kidded about going into business making something that *seemed* exotic and how well it would sell. Then I made a mistake. I reminded John about an experiment we'd done with the BDR cones. One afternoon we had put a spare pair under the pre- and, he admitted, then and in this conversation, that it *had* changed the sound. He blubbered some excuse to Rex about not being able to quantify whether it was an improvement (his otherwise good memory suddenly failing him) and the subject was quickly changed.
While helping me return the moving van John took an opportunity to mildly chastise me for embarrassing him in front of another professional engineer. He was obviously torn between his education and that of a respected colleague's and first hand experience.
It's at times like this that the fact I am, for the most part, self educated, has great value. It has not been drilled into my head that "this is *always* the case" and the ability to see things for what they *really* are is still part of my faculties. It's unfortunate that education somehow has taught these otherwise intelligent people to believe books before their own senses. That's not to say education is bad, just that the rigid thinking it promotes is one of its downsides.
BTW, I know deep down John is actually a convert as he's been around while my system has matured. He's seen what various cables and tweaks have done, both good and bad. Rex doesn't know it, but he's next.
Redkiwi: Your last post shows we're somewhat in agreement. I would gladly participate in an exchange with the members in question if it were an open minded exchange. I simply refuse to participate in circular debate. It serves no purpose except to occupy space and time. That and it frustrate me. Apparently you, too, after awhile. |
Hi JHunter,
I now have three NBS Statement power cords, two on my bi-amps (Aloia) and one on my SACD
(SCD-1) player. I have BMI Whales on the pre-amp and suppling my PS300 conditioner.
I have actually done a lot of testing with power cords with these same guys over the years. We have had sessions where they or I are blindfolded and we will try two, maybe three cords. The trick of not switching is a good one to see them squirm, but I've found it meaningless. My experience is it's almost 50/50 as weather they heard anything. I've tried to inject the no switch test a few times in one night and all that happens is confusion from the listener, and then they begin to doubt everything they hear. I'd say my experience with that trick is it may actually be counter productive and invalidates earlier findings.
This blind testing has become a game for us, it's fun to see how well we pick up on subtle changes.
It's not ABX, but I insist the results are as good or better. I have two amps, exactly the same model. We've played with switching between amps with exactly the same interconnect model, of exactly the same age. We have found one of the amps to be a bit better in it's high range than the other (guess which amp is wired to the bass and which to the midrange tweeters). I suppose it could be burn in because they were bought at different times, of it could be shelf placement, or one having cleaner terminals, I happen to believe nothing man made is exact, and two identical pieces are never identical. This is why I believe my testing methods as described many times here on these threads provide more valid results than the clinical approach demanded by some here. It's funny that the demands keep coming for tests, but there are no attempts at real tests by these guys, and a flat un-acceptance of the results reported by so many here on Audiogon. I guess again I'm proven too stupid to understand there higher life form. Happy testing, oh ah listening, no enjoying the music, wasn't that the purpose?
J.D. |
NEW CHALLENGE is afoot! Count me in. I would be willing to "lend" a power cable to Jhunter as well. I have a pretty good Synergistic Research not in use. I would be happy to send it along to Jhunter for a few weeks. Same test conditions as Albert Porter suggested. Plug it into a component, let it settle in for two weeks, then replace with stock power cord. If you can honestly tell yourself that you do not hear a difference, send it back to me and I'll cover shipping costs back. If you do hear a difference, send it back to me anyway, or maybe we'll make a nice deal because you can't bear to part with it ;)
I'm game, how about you? |
Jhunter, your system may not be the absolute ultimate in audio, but it is certainly high quality and capable of resolving the differences between power cables. I would love for you to audition a couple of cables that are very different from stock and from each other.
Perhaps Purist Audio Dominus and maybe something like a Siltech. I would not tell you in advance that the performance in your particular system would be worth the investment. I am certain though that the test I outlined, employing long term listening with one of these, then returning to the original power cord will provide an easily discernible performance change.
I would love it if you tried this and then posted your comments as to what you heard. You don't have to agree with anyone, much less me, but finding a new tool to make your music better would be exciting. If you do this test, and tell me in advance what you like and dislike about your system with the stock cords, I think I can almost guess which of these two aftermarket cords will make you happy. It could be a fun experiment. I will not be unhappy if I fail to guess right, and should you find something that works better, you are the winner in the end.
Last, I could possibly supply you with an Acrotech and a pair of old Tiffany TPC 60's. These would be fairly easy to tell from stock. This offer is in case you cannot borrow the suggested ones from a store. I could possibly loan you a Purist Dominus if I can find a spare. They are expensive, so I don't have much in the way of extras laying around, but I am willing to look. |
Albert, Jcbtubes -
My system, while not ultra-high end, is quite enjoyable and pretty revealing:
Pioneer 525 DVD/Marantz CD63 mkII feeding an MSB Link DAC III;
Plinius 8150 integrated amp (w/apologies to Redkiwi's countrymen, this might be the weak link in the system);
Dunlavy SM-1.
Pretty nice sounding, but if anybody wants to send me a really good subwoofer I'd certainly not object! By the way, there's no lack of aftermarket PCs in the area. Within 15 miles of home, there are 6 bona-fide high end stores and a couple of mid-fi stores with a smattering of better stuff. At one store, you could listen to the $85k Dynaudio Evidence with a Krell Master Reference sub. They also had the Krell Master Reference amps; I think this is what led to the power crisis in California!
Cheers,
Jhunter |
Jadem6 -
I agree that your results are interesting indeed. Not a blind experiment so from a purely audible sense the results aren't valid (you might possibly have unintentionally given some clue as to what was happening, maybe not), but the tests do give some meaningful information. Could you tell us (and I apologize if you've given this info before) what your aftermarket cables are?
Also, it would be extremely interesting for you to try this test again - this time without switching the cables, even though you say you are?
JHunter |
Jadem6 - Very interesting experiement. First, you learned that your friends are honest. Second, you showed that people don't buy into the placebo effect all the time. Maybe there IS something to this and we're not just nuts for trying out wacky tweaks. |
Frap, I did not mean to imply I would react negatively if 702 surprised me by posting something of positive value, nor did I mean to imply I want to see him go the way of Jostler.
702 is what I call "on it". When people are "on it" they bang away repeating the same point ad nauseum and don't leave room for conversation and transfer of knowledge. I want 702 to get "off it" and contribute to conversations in a way that allows for others' views and new discoveries. I have no problem with 702 posting his thoughts, experiences, opinions or beliefs. But his style and derision for others here are "on it" to an extent that is highly detrimental to enlightened discussion.
Fpeel, I reserve RHUBARB for when I am too exasperated to continue to fight the good fight. I feel a RHUBARB phase approaching. |
Redkiwi, I do not think that "stonewalling" of any member including 702, Steve etc., is good for the overall A-gon climate. Suppose a topic arose that 702 had expertise in, technical or otherwise?
Now 702, I know that there are alot of thinkers on these controversial subjects that are in your camp, but you have not demonsrated any testing that you have done regarding the subject, where many others (including a great gottcha test by Jadem6 above) have.
Are you truly interested in the pursuit of better music? This is the question you need ask yourself.
I know a great many "Audio" people, and a whole lot of "Music" people. Sometimes the technical gurus cant hear what the music oriented hear(I have seen this many times).
And to quote the Warden in "Cool Hand Luke", "Some people you just can't reach"
I think your "Mr Spock" personality here has left many cold towards you, but I am sure you are loving this, eh 702?.....Frank |
I have completed my newest power cord "experiment". I have taken three nights and three different audio friends. I invited them independently over to here the new power cords I just received. I told them they are the latest cord that received all the press at the New York show and that I bought the show set. I set them down to first listen to my existing system with the existing cords in place. We listened to a few tracks of their choice before switching to the "new" cords. I plugged them in, the whole time talking of my excitement and how much I hoped they liked them too. After listening to the same tracks, all three had basically the same comment. They were disappointed with the presentation. Comments included grainy, tighter sound stage, glare, harsh, lack of detail.... I was visibly upset and asked them to try again. Same result, the second time with full conviction rather than guarded concern.
As our session closed, they seemed sheepish as I thanked them for coming. I also thanked them for their honesty and told them that I played a trick on them. I tried to see if the psychological issues talked about here on Audiogon would pan out in the reality of my system. The trick was rather than switching to the "new" fictitious cords I switched to the stock cords that I received with the equipment.
Now we have Redkiwi and myself going back to "test" our stock cords, and for me using the psychology against myself. Both of our findings are the same. So Steve and 702, how do you want to handle these new experiment results? Where is you agreement now? I'm sure you'll find a new tact rather than trying to apply these contradictions to your theories and begin to work on the reality that you don't know enough about this topic to argue your lost case. I'm sure 702 that you'll again tell me you don't understand, that must be a real problem for you, your inability to understand people. IMO your both to stubborn to accept the fact that your dead wrong. Time to wake up, maybe you can disprove my results but until you figure out a way to disprove fact, I'll just accept your weaknesses in science and value your opinion for what it's worth. ZIP |
All good points, Redkiwi. Personally, talking to the collective brickwall grew old quickly and feeling it was a waste of energy choose simply not to do so. Circular arguments tend to have that effect on me. There are far too many other interesting threads available to feel any sense of loss. In any case, it certainly wasn't my intention to encourage anyone to alter their approach.
Anyway, whatever happened to "RHUBARB!"? |
Fpeel, we have three choices. First, engage with 702, arguably letting him get our goats, but possibly driving the debate to some conclusion (eg. Jostler). Second, ignore him completely, thereby causing new (and other)posters here to be intimidated from posting any of their opinions, in fear of unchallenged attacks from the likes of 702. Third, not reply to 702's posts but vote against him.
I agree that there are problems with the first alternative. But I am more concerned about the second alternative as I have seen this outcome eventuate elsewhere and this forum therefore degenerate into the closed-minded talking to the closed-minded, getting solace from being right. The third option may be preferred by some, but I see it as the weasle's way out. If I disagree or disapprove, then I do not intend to hide behind the voting system.
Therefore, regardless of 702's motives, I feel the necessity to react to his contradictory position. If he, as you suggest, continues to post asinine comments here purely to feed his immature need to get a reaction then I reckon he will get a reaction until he grows up or goes away. If this feeds his need for attention, he is one very sick puppy, and most certainly not one that should be left to intimidate posters here. |
Guys, haven't you figured it out yet? 702 is getting exactly what he wants. It's not insight, education or sharing as with most of the participants here. It's your collective goats. |
702, ewe say: "I've heard many, many audio systems of exceptional quality that had nary a designer PC, and couldn't possibly be improved by adding any..." this blatant disregard for scientific method is pitiful. i can't believe we are still arguing w/someone who purports to believe in scientific method, yet completely ignores it, & who won't even trust using the most sensitive aural measuring device known - his own ears!?! 702, WHAT ARE EWE AFRAID OF??? are ewe afraid ewe mite be wrong? afraid of discovering science HASN'T yet discovered all the answers? afraid that yule have to spend more money on wire? jadem6, 702's horn tooting is outta tune - whether it's live, on a boombox, or thru albert porter's stereo - w/or without designer cords... ;~) doug s. |
Has anyone else heard that the guy who continues to toot his own horn is the same guy that can not get anyone else to toot it for him?
Is any one else as sick of the tooting by the high and mighty as I am? It's all clear to me now! |
702, it sounds like you have played with as many power supplies as me. And yet unlike you I don't find exotic PCs silly. I did find them silly before I tried them though - which I guess is the difference between you and me. You illustrate this point even further when you comment about "exceptional quality systems that ... couldn't possibly be improved by adding any [PCs]." How can you know that if you didn't even try.
You see I think your mind misunderstands useful theory as completely explaining natural phenomena, and you simply deduce everything from that theory. This is not scientific at all, it is pompous and short-sighted. (I don't mean to be insulting because I am guilty of being pompous and short-sighted about things I am highly educated in - usually the ones I am most educated in).
Where I do agree with you is concerning the ludicrous claims of the marketers who are paid to sell audiophiles on manufacturers' product. Anyone that has a business with shareholders is obliged to do this. You tell them what is legal, but otherwise anything that will sell the product. Some of the advertisements and "piffle" on web sites is a hoot. But there is only one difference between the audiophiles that fall for it and yourself - the fact you are better educated in electronics theory. Otherwise they are just like you and deduce from a scientific theory whether something will be beneficial or not. You and they fall into the trap of believing in the completeness of a theory.
For example, there might hypothetically be unequivocal evidence to your satisfaction that a shielded interconnect cable will sound better than an identical unshielded cable. And so as the hypothetical pioneer of shielded interconnect cables I might write some convincing rubbish for the masses that gets them into a lather that they just have to have my cables. Both you and the ignorant masses would be wrong to conclude that my cable was better than all other cables, provided there was some other parameter that affected the performance of a cable. Hypothetically my cables might use steel conductors and a competitors' might use copper. The dilemna that you do not address is how do you decide whether the shielded steel cable will outperform the unshielded copper cable. The answer seems simple to me - you listen to them. For you it appears to me that you would prefer to see what a 'scope tells you than by listening. But how can the scope identify which form of distortion is most likely to reduce the listener's enjoyment?
Of course the example includes two issues (shielding and conductivity) that you probably accept as influential on the sound, and a dilemma that can be resolved - ie. get a shielded copper cable. But it is not always that simple. And where we have the problem incessantly in these argumentative posts, is where experienced audiophiles hear a difference, and you deny that report because of your pompous and short-sighted belief that you know everything that there is to know about reproducing music electronically. Frankly 702, that is just as much a "hoot" as some of the claims of the copywriters working for the cable manufacturers. |
Frap: A lot of people want the "tube sound," even at the expense of a couple percent THD. That's fine. I know you can make tube circuits without that distortion, but that's not what most seem to want to hear. For the "nice sound," tubes are great. For accuracy and neutrality, I pick solid state. And actually, for a while I was experimenting with FETs to get the tube-like transfer function. That was fun, but I didn't have a practical application for it.
IMHO, the audio pioneers (not only design, but also techniques, science, etc.) included Bell and Edison, of course, but also Helmholtz, Fletcher and Munson, Alan Blumlein, Edwin Armstrong, Jack Mullin, Paul Klipsch, Ray Dolby, Rudy Van Gelder, Stanley Lipshitz, Julian Hirsch, Eugene Patronis, Kees van Imminck, John Eargle, George Martin, Harry Olson, F. Alton Everest, and many more.
Brulee: No, I did not make a boastful claim in saying that PCs do not make a difference. I've designed, built, modified, and repaired many dozens of power supplies in audio gear, and the claims that the cable purveyors make are just downright silly, just as a claim that designer air in your tires would seem silly to an automotive engineer or to a mechanic.
Do I believe that you, Jcbtubes, and others are hearing things that aren't really there? That's a very strong possibility. Sound is invisible and temporal, our hearing varies with conditions, and aural memory is evanescent. Thus, audio is susceptible to biases, misjudgment, and misperception.
BTW, what CDs did you get?
Jadem6: I don't know what you're saying. Are you saying that building Heathkits is more instructive to audio design than studying acoustics, electronics, music, psychoacoustics, etc.? Man, I've done both. I guess I could've save myself some time and tuition, eh? I'm delighted about your practical experience, but I enjoy the fruits of my own even more. If you feel that true audio excellence is attainable only by spending megabucks on power cords, well, I guess your peasants are pretty damn wealthy and out more to impress than to listen. I don't object to your spending big bucks on such things; if anyone should spend his money on snake oil, I have the least objection to your doing so.
Jcbtubes: I will add the adjective "untrue" to your latest "boastful" statement. I've heard many, many audio systems of exceptional quality that had nary a designer PC, and couldn't possibly be improved by adding any. If slavish and worshipful devotion to every cockamamie marketing scheme meant to separate audiophiles from their money is being a "winner" musically, I'll let you have that one. |
Jhunter. You are certainly welcome to listen here anytime you are available. Advance notice of a few days would help, and I am willing to pick you up at the airport and treat you to dinner.
My reason for assuming that audio tools are not important to you, is due to the challenge you made to everyone here at Audiogon. Primarily, your obvious pre assumption of failure for all of the aftermarket power cords. Further, by injecting money into the equation, you set a mood of smugness in your certainly as to the end result of the tests. Your procedures are another ABX topic with a softer sell, and is a subject that has been declared off limits by Audiogon as counter productive to the discussions of advancing music systems.
This is of course, why I made an alternate offer. It is elegant in it's simplicity, and does away with the problems of cycling equipment, multiple movement of the cables, and undue pressure on the listeners. I have faith, that even knowing in advance which cable is which, you will not be biased to choose only the stock wire. If you arrive with an open mind and audition once each way, in a relaxed atmosphere, you will conclude that high performance power cables not only work, but are essential to the system.
My concerns regarding your equipment is natural, considering the experience of myself and others in my group ( including the Grammy award winner ). Our gains were so dramatic, as to be impossible to ignore. I assumed that you either never auditioned any high end power cables, or your system failed to reveal the improvement to you. If you have experimented with these products, your opinion certainly brings into question the validity of your system to serve as a test bed for this experiment.
Each must ultimately judge how much time and effort to invest, and whether the performance balances the expense. I do not expect the same level of commitment from every person that enjoys listening to music. I do however, bristle at those that limit their options, and in their own judgement, claim everyone else to be wrong. I have gained knowledge only by keeping an open mind, and experimenting with the tools that were claimed to be of benefit. Certainly there are more failures than successes, but ultimately, you receive in return almost exactly what you invest.
I sincerely hope to have an opportunity to share this with you. I believe you will find ours a passionate group of dedicated musicians, engineers and audiophiles, all sharing a diverse software library, seeking only the opportunity to make the music and the system the best it can be. |
Jhunter, in response to your "honestly, honestly don't understand why people are reluctant to evaluate components in this fashion". I can only give you my reasons, but suspect that they may overlap with others'. I find ABX testing provides far too short a listening experience where the listeners are trying to discern differences in the equipment, not trying to enjoy music. It is my opinion that we all try to objectify too much when we describe how a component sounds, and that we are better to just try relaxing into the groove of the music when evaluating equipment. I have learnt when evaluating a component to just put it in place and then forget about it. After a few days, maybe a week (ignoring burn-in time) I get a sense of how much I am enjoying the music. When I am not enjoying it I start to get objective and try to identify what is going on. When I have developed a hypothesis I test it by swapping out the new item for its predecessor. Sometimes I get an overwhelming sense of relief from doing this, not always easy to objectively describe, but clearly the new product had been reducing my ability to relax into the groove of the music.
I don't think that what an individual needs in order to get enjoyment out of music is easy to objectify, much less measure. This is because electronically recorded and reproduced music is not the same as the naturalness of the real thing, and in order to recreate the feeling of the real thing the brain has to do a lot of work. Exactly which distortions tax the brain most, or distract the brain most from relaxing into the groove are not captured by measurements of THD in my experience.
I find that in ABX testing (which I have had some experience of), I can only readily identify what I perceive to be differences relating to tonal colorations, grain, dynamics and transparency. I often find that understanding the differences in PRAT, for example, or naturalness of the way sounds start and stop, as another example, take me longer. I theorise that this is because these issues only become meaningful when you are just trying to enjoy the music, not when you are trying to objectify the sound. And yet these two issues are critical requirements for me in a music system.
And by the way, I have reported elsewhere here the results of an ABX test I did with two other listeners with respect to power cables. The differences were readily discernable for me even in an ABX, because there were clear differences in that the stock cable imposed a grain on the sound and suffered some upper-midrange ringing. |
To ALL- I regret that I can sometimes take things too seriously. This is supposed to be fun.
To JHunter- I do apologize for my diatribe. I recented communicated with Brulee and discovered that in fact you have been discussing the listening issue further. Though I did attempt (twice, actually) earlier to add a response stating this, the Audiogon server wouldn't accept my follow-up till now.
May I add, as has been detailed in other responses, that A/B testing of audio equipment is not a trivial task. Power cycling of equipment and equipment (cable) movement can take a considerable amount of time to restabilize. This can severely limit the number of swaps possible in a week, let alone a day. Also, conclusions based on other's perceptions really aren't as valid as those based on your own experience.
To this end, I'm willing to offer a Shunyata King Cobra (moderately flexible but thick and heavy) for audition (with some reasonable form of deposit) for a week in your system. (I'd offer a FIM, but it seems Brulee has already offered one). Though your system is unknown to me, I will assume that it is a true attempt at hi-end aspirations. My opinion is that you will easily differentiate between a stock cord and the Shunyata. (FYI: the King Cobra will have to be installed and not moved for a couple of days before it will perform at it's best. It's internal construction requires settling of the proprietary "dust" used for emi/rfi absorption. Also, I'd recommend that you place it on your front-end equipment first.)
If I may, I do find that knowledge through personal experience is usually worth much more than money. This is what I was refering to as "for your benefit". For someone to offer to set aside their time (and Brulee has, I seem to recall, refused any monetary compensation) to help enlighten you, certainly fits my definition of "for your benefit".
I allowed my cynicism to get the better of me. I must assume that you are sincere about listening to power cords yourself with some semblance of an open mind, regardless of some of the comments that you've previously submitted. However, it does seem perplexing that you haven't commented about attempts to contact any dealers concerning pc auditioning. I'm sure that I and others on this thread can help direct you to several so that you can participate in this endeavor yourself. Please contact me if you are interested in auditioning the Shunyata pc.
Jcbtubes
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Jcbtubes - Have you bothered to read the PC challenge? Judging from your post, clearly not, yet for some reason feel the need to expound upon it - and upon me personally ("closeminded and lazy", you said). Your comments are insulting and ludicrous. Let's check the facts - while you might not care, others are perhaps interested: "You wish that others go out of their way to accommodate YOU". The ONLY restriction I placed was for the test to be local; I've a family (and a life) and was unwilling to jump on a plane and spend a couple of days traveling. Since I live in the 5th largest metropolitan area in the United States, that limits it to a population of roughly 7 million people. Sorry if you consider that unreasonable. ". . . at least put forth the time to take Brulee up on his offer". If you'd even skimmed through the PC Challenge thread you'd know that Bruce, others and I have discussed this . You would also know that we are planning on getting together at a time when it's mutually convenient. I'll be down in LA pretty frequently, although June doesn't work out well for Bruce. Sorry if our getting together in a month or two isn't fast enough for you. You wouldn't know that Bruce and I have discussed my trying some of his PCs. The first wouldn't work, as my rack doesn't allow inflexible cords to be easily inserted but he's looking for another. That I'll try.
"Stop complaining that more people aren't willing to put themselves out . . .". In my post I said that the lack of participation was most likely due to geographic constraints - an acknowledgement, not a complaint.
". . .for what will amount to simply your benefit". Let's see - I'm willing to put up $500 with ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBILITY of any financial gain, as you'd know if you'd read the challenge. How can you possibly feel that's to my benefit, simply or otherwise?
JHunter |
Albert -
Your test description was certainly picturesque! ;-)
I'm sure that you already know, however, that a blind test only means that the identity of the object under test remains unknown. That's ALL that I'm looking for, and still honestly, honestly don't understand why people are reluctant to evaluate components in this fashion. I have no desire or intent to diminish anyone's listening enjoyment, and think that even a cursory reading of my postings here would show that.
Also, why do you feel that I don't think that audio "tools" are important? Ignoring your comment regarding my hearing abilities (unwarrented and unfair, please!), I feel that there are a great many things that can be done to change the sound of a system. Room acoustics and speakers clearly have a huge impact, front end (especially analog) and amps may have an impact as well although much smaller IMO. Speaker cables and interconnects should not have any effect in most cases and PCs bring up the rear (confirmed to me, at least, when I've listened blind; I've heard all sorts of things during sighted evaluations).
I'd be sincerely happy to join you for a listening test, and as an amateur classical musician would be eager to meet someone at the Grammy-level. It'd be fun regardless of the outcome. I'll let you know the next time I come out to Dallas (it's been 1-2x/year typically, but hard to know with a new job) and let's see if we can set something up.
JHunter |
Sorry Fpeel for adding you too. I must be loosing my sense of humor (even as sick as it is) Thanks Dekay for pointing that out, I didn't like the idea of another! J.D. |
702- Sorry about not reponding more quickly. I was too busy deluding myself with irrelevant audio tweaks to check back with this thread. Your conclusion that I know nothing about the people in question is absolutely wrong. I don't claim to know everything, but I do know some things from the responses given in this thread and others. It is based on those comments that I used the term "losers" and limited its' context to music.
Let me add another boastful statement. There does not exist a true hi-end system that can't be improved sonically through the use of exceptional, aftermarket power cords selected by the "ludicrous and erroneous practice of personal auditioning".
As for JHunter- The fear of discovering that the Emperor has no clothes is clearly indicated by those who consistantly refuse to audition and experience for themselves the positive effects of the best pcs. At least the child who proclaimed the Emperor nude, was present at the time to observe the Emperor. Those on this thread who refuse to take part in or expend the slightist effort necessary to expand their personal experience concerning this subject, don't even have the validity of the aforementioned child who at least PERSONALLY WITNESSED the procession.
You wish that others go out of their way to accommodate YOU concerning an issue that YOU won't even bother to place a few phone calls and obtain power cords so that YOU can listen to them yourself. Just how sincere, or should I write closeminded or lazy, is that! Brulee has already offered you the opportunity to experience the difference in his home. All that is required of you is to just arrange a time and show up. If you won't take the time, effort, and shipping money to discover for yourself through dealers that allow auditioning, at least put forth the time to take Brulee up on his offer. Stop complaining that more people aren't willing to put themselves out for what will amount to simply your benefit. (I write this, because the others will not change their experience-less based opinions even if you do). I do hope that you are honestly sincere about participating ( I will gladly offer the first glass of wine or beer during dinner in reconciliation for my diatribe ), but the burden is now solely on you.
As always, just my .02 |
Oh no: Were you being sarcastic as well? The lines are becoming very gray to me at this point. |
JD: FPeel was being sarcastic as was I. |
Albert, I was hoping you were going to set up the blindfold kissing thing. You must know some women that could take part. The cloths pin and gloves seems a bit kinky though. I'd rather take my chances with all my senses thanks.
As much as I want to hear your system I will pass on the big group, I already know the outcome so if you don't mind, I'll hold off until I'm in Dallas and hopefully hook up with you for a solo performance. Thanks for the offer, I hope Steve, 702, Jostler and now I guess Fpeel will join you. (if they don't, well it only shows there intent again!)I would love to see there faces!
Anyway keep working on that blind woman thing and thank-you for the gracious offer. J.D.
P.S. I expect the free dinner offer is a standing offer? |
