High order crossovers

@trelja 

The manufacture of a component is not the same as it's electrical performance. 

We cannot look at a cutaway via a microscope and evaluate how it will sound anymore than we can look at the glowing plate of a tube. 


Best,

E

@trelja

" Resistors represent a fundamental component in the toolbox. Resistors reduce voltage, reduce gain,

Yes, right right ..

... reduce dynamics"

Woah, no, they don’t. They could only do this if they were non-linear. Resistors are the most linear parts in the entire audio chain, except wire. If you are going this way, you might as well get rid of every volume control and only listen at full output. Hahaha. :)

I think you are confusing output level (dB SPL) with the ability to present music without compression. The latter is how I define dynamics.

High sensitivity drivers like in horns have the advantage in dynamics not because they are loud, but because they suffer much less from thermal compression. That is, the coils and motors heat up less and can handle more heat.

While resistors and other crossover components and even drivers may suffer from this, it is up to the designer to keep all of them well within spec. None of this makes the argument that high order (4th) is less dynamic than low-order (1st, 2nd).

This is why I use 5W resistors when 2W are called for. :) 

Best,

E

Again, I strongly suggest anyone who REALLY wants to walk the walk and stop debating forever, build a pair of the A26 kits. It doesn't get any lower order than that. 

Zero order is NO crossover, not low-order crossover. 

Best,

E

If memory serves, time / phase coherent speakers often use 1st order tweets, 2nd order on the mids, along with physical offsets. 

But as I have mentioned, I've heard them and they were not for me. I didn't think that dynamics was a particularly stellar reason to buy them. 

<< shrug >> 

Comments I have heard from those who have played with DSP to force speakers into submission in the time domain indicate better location of instruments, but not something I'm going to worry about much. 

Buy what you like. 

Best,

E

There is no correlation between part count and difficulty of driving. In fact, after a crossover is done, say you end up with a dozen parts, you might often add a few more to reduce impedance peaks and make the speaker operate more consistently with tubes. 

But the original poster asked about "high order" crossover slopes. This too me means 4th or higher. 1st, 2nd and 3rd are super common. 

Of course, there's always some one with a pet view point. In this case, full range, one driver, no crossover speakers. They're fine I guess. 

@kestner 24db/octave slopes help maintain smooth response when you are off the tweeter axis. 

You need to evaluate the entire speaker, not just the possible imperfections of one specific parameter. 

Best,

E

I can say one thing for sure: They're not nearly as reliable. :) 

Overall. 

Of course, much is up to the specific design, but you have to be a lot more careful with first order slopes. 

Best,

E

btw a lot of the output in so called high efficiency designs is trash ( distortion ).... which the efficiency spec takes no note of.....

Maybe true, but our hearts and ears buy speakers, not test gear, so it is worth listening with your geek off. 

But I do think that listening to Vandersteens as exemplars of low order crossovers is a good idea if that is your question. Of course, you can also listen to full-range (i.e. single driver) zero crossover speakers to see if they float your boat in terms of dynamics. 

Or for something truly different, build the Seas A26 kit:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/seas-a26-10-2-way-kit-pair-based-on-the-cla...

In terms of crossover slopes, it doesn't get much simpler than this. 

Best,

E

I'm afraid that I've heard both Vandersteen and old thiels and neither impressed me as being game-changing speakers. 

I feel as if low order crossovers were actually significantly better in dynamics I'd have heard it. 

Best,

E 

I personally don't think so. 

One way you can evaluate this is to listen to old Thiel or current Vandersteen. They use low order crossovers (often 1st, the lowest) exclusively. 

Ask yourself, are these speakers the most dynamic you have ever heard? 

Best,

E