I once had ten tube traps, I once had eight Room Lens, I once had four Shatki Holographic room treatments, I once had 22 RPG diffusors, and I once had mylar room mirrors. Now I have Zilplexes which are eleven tiny cups. I've had it! |
Over thirty tube traps in a small room? Now I don't feel so bad about having so many Shun Mook Mpingo discs. :-) |
Just for the record, and not being a fan of soft materials as a general rule, viscoelastic damping material is a "soft" material. The viscoelastic material just needs to be constrained, allowng vertical vibrations to be converted to heat via horizontal motion of the viscoelastic layer. |
@ theaudiotweak Hi, this may come to a supprise to you!, I have given many seminairs on resonance tunning in the late 90s thru-out half the u.s.a!, I have met gale sanders, Dave wilson,people from Avolon acoustics, spectral electronics, and so on etc..., you may have heard of poly crystal resonance products that went out of bussiness years ago because Bruce Badlack could not keep up with production?, really!, anyway, I gave him a one of my inventions, the sorry S.O.B never paid me!, he sold it quite well!, I have been reading all that is said here, keeping my thoughts to my-self, I will tell you I have been amused at everything said here, It appears the few of the comunity has come along way, not very many audiophiles know what they are doing, they want to isolate everything instead of resonance tunning, I can litterally change the sound stage, bass, treble, clarity, mid-range, and etc..., with-out no electricty!, I have done this for a very, very, long time, when I express any thing about it, most believe nothing!, so I go on and do not concern myself with what they think, I have a couple of inventions now that I would like to make a reality, from cones for componets for tunning to speaker stands that are jaw dropping in performance, how do I know, I made proto types for myself, you would likly laugh at some of the materials used, that's ok with me, I know what happens when they are used, that's really all I care to say about it, cheers! |
Okay we do agree on the potential benefit of resonance control and that it can be fun and games or maybe not.
Really exciting to hear a new breath or audio cue from a recording that I have listened to for years. That added breath that was revealed makes me want to find even more air in the recording.
I have recently added a external method of chassis tuning to my transport that can be adjusted right on the chassis. No soft materials are required or wanted. We have been doing the same with the amps and speakers for sometime. The fact that these are adjustable make for a trial of patience. While these methods allow for immediate change the fact that materials are more or less stressed they must be allowed to relax on their own into a redirected state. When they are settled and relaxed then you can fully evaluate their benefit good, better, best. Unlike wooden parts that can be tuned these methods in metal will not be affected by tempertaure or humidity. The fact is you can tune all night long to your preference and to the benefit of your sound space. All major parts of the components are adjustable in the same way inside the chassis. Again there are no bandwidth limitations from the use of damped materials . For all of this to work the units must be mechanically grounded so as to maximize collected thru put of redirected energy to ground..The whole idea and benefit is to maximize energy collection to the point of exit much like a tuned exhaust header. The user can adjust the "back pressure" to their sonic preference with out the use of soft materials. Tom, Star Sound Technologies |
Geoffkait, yes I agree with what you have said, thank you.
I've had success isolating transformers from the chassis and stressing
the circuit boards also. I've found it helpful to use hot glued wooden circuit board standoffs in the past BUT I'm experimenting with Stillpoint Standoffs ( one of Stillpoint's OEM product line ) with ball bearings.
Your idea of damping top plate of isolation stands works for me also.
I get more music by putting a little damping on some of my damping and isolation devices. I've discovered more playback info using two iso platforms on top of each other with Stillpoint under each and under the component. crazy but it works. another direction is Stillpoint's no shelf equipment racks, well designed racks with attached stillpoints no shelves. Like all of Stillpoint's stuff, surprisingly effective and surprisingly expensive.
I don't think I've mentioned that I have the ugliest system ever with so much cr#& piled on it that you can't see the components. I'm using
multi layers of heavy duty aluminum foil between each component and between speakers and components for RF IF interference with strikingly good sonic effects. I have over 30 tube traps in my small room, 6 behind each speaker and a 7 foot tall "Stonehenge" circle around the listening area effectively canceling unwanted room reflections, each tube trap fine tuned by ear. One begins to expect that I have no family around and no life other than Audio??
I'm having a lot of fun with audio friends and I'm tingling with excitement as I await my HF UR Speaker cable. Dave |
Tbg, I agree that the processes and never ending parameters are frustrating at times and as I age, the heavy lifting gets harder.
What lifts my spirits about tests is my successes, which come weekly,
and allow me to peer further into the presentation. Each success has me feeling good about discovering something new and I can imagine my self as a cutting edge pioneer for a moment. Another really fun thing for me is that, any improvements I make these days reveal music, images, presentations that I've never heard anywhere before and could not have known were possible. Revelations!
I say that the hugest upgrade in my system ever is Ricks HF inventions. Thanks again Rick and Thanks ALL for participating in this
thread.
Dave |
Tbg. Norm, I new you were not being critical. The third word I used in my post happened to be the same word used by you in your post that's all. Sorry if my comments were misconstrued.
In a description of my personal experience with materials and shapes I should have placed the word frustrating where I used the word resent. I am now very happy with my current results. Tom |
Theaudiotweak. Tom, I am not being critical; I'm basically expressing my frustration that we don't know enough about this to have engineering predictions of what is best. I'm tired of trial and error. |
I never resent the time I spend seeking out new materials, processes, proportions and blends that enhance the directionality of my products in use with musical instruments that touch the floor. Capturing the forces of nature and placing them in a reactive device many years ago and in the previous 24 months finding a supplementary method to enhance that directionality was pretty darn cool. These methods are highly beneficial to first person real acoustic instruments used in Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center and carry forward to playback devices already in the audio chain. The wrong choice of material and geometry does not serve well the instrument or the musician which are all before the playback chain. That has been my experience.
I am highly respective of all the posters here and especially of the last few. I know that collectively we have as much as 150 years of audio experience. We all have had our personal encounters in and around audio and we are here to express those to all. Tom |
One of the most important things I've run across recently is the value of damping or isolating the toroidal transformer from the printed circuit boards and to isolate the printed circuit boards as much as possible from the rest of the chassis. Damping the capacitors is also a worthwhile endeavor. Constrained layer damping for CD transports, transformers, top plate of isolation stands, etc. has proven to be Verrry Interesting. |
Theaudiotweak, Ddraudt, and Geoffkait, perhaps it is my age and long experience with trial and error improvements, but I resent the time I have to commit to dampening, coupling, demagetizing, removing static interferance, etc. Heaven knows I have done a great deal of this. I do value my limited findings, as well as the success of some companies with their efforts, such as StillPoints, Star Sound Tech, Rightway Audio, AudioTop, Essence of Music, Zilplex,TriPoint, cable charging by Synergistic Research and Exemplar, and of course, High Fidelity Cables, among others.
Carry on guys; I will always listen to demonstrations and hopefully know when there is an improvement. |
Tom, further thoughts on damping.. You may see by my last post that I have experimented with different size and types of the same material to find the right one. Took trying a lot of different lead shot to find the correct size and the correct % of antimony additive in the lead to sound best. I also use lead bars. I have worked with many metals, woods and mixes of materials. inside bags and inside wooden blocks of different woods. I have even found one static shielding bag that sounds better than plastic bags in some applications. I've never gotten steel shot or sand to sound good and brass has always sounded brassy but there are thousands of other sizes, shapes, amounts of materials I have used, or haven't, that I could try if I live forever. I also have spent years working on every part of my power
system, years on room acoustics, years on speaker and component mods. I test new components, tweaks, cables, power inlets and outlets, filters, shielding devices and I build a lot of power cords.
I do a lot of listening to music also so time for damping tests is limited. 20 years ago I realized that I would never run out of things to try. I am about to try… HF UR cables, new wire for my 7 power cords,
more Stillpoints, bell bronze heat sinks, a few new CD's, a better set of speakers, some different size iso platforms, advanced equipment rack tuning, a new amp and to find a lot of money to continue my audio madness. I'm thrilled to be busy with my audio dream.
Enjoy the Music
Dave |
Thanks Tom, interesting ideas that remind me of my approach and teaches me more. I have used hundreds of freezer zip lock bags over 3 decades in weights from a few ounces to 50 pounds. I have found only one size and one type of lead shot works well and the rest do not. Hint; if you haven't tried #6 chilled, you haven't heard lead at its best. I have tried a number of materials as well. the choice is endless so I haven't tried them all. Do you have any specific items to try?
At times, with lead, I must place another material between the lead and the item to be damped to prevent overdamping. I listen very carefully to Not lose"air", "space" and hi fq. detail.
I still use 11 VPI bricks also for weight and to pull magnetic fields away from circuitry.
Example: Inside my amp I have 3 vpi bricks, 4 lead filled wooden blocks, 5 tiny slivers of wood, a dozen squares of plywood, 15 various
size bags of lead, some Rf If shielding and maybe more i have forgotten about. The amp sits on layers of isolation devices.
With virtually every component in the amp damped, shielded and isolated, sound I hear is wonderful to my ears. (and other ears as well)
best system I've ever heard. So, pretty good then;-)
I love experimenting but about parameters, The human mind can think up more things to try than a human can do in a lifetime.
My never-ending list just gets bigger with time. That is why sharing is
vital. Thanks everyone.
P.S. I could use 4 more VPI Bricks if anyone knows of some for sale.
Dave |
That's weird. I found lead to be one of the most harmful materials, evicerating the bass frequencies and generally just making the sound, uh, sound funky. |
Placement of the right material in the right place that has the right mass is crucial. I prefer to use materials that are of similar reactance that have much the same transfer rate and mechanical impedance and are of similar sonic character. Brass and certain grade of steels are my preference.. Soft materials including lead are actually high impedance and will store energy and when placed around or on other materials greatly influence energy flow and therefore character. These soft materials are mutes of sorts and dynamic structure will change. Adjustable material reactance is the key much like tuning a musical instrument.
Dave I would propose to you that you purchase some heavy duty zip lock bags that you fill these with different materials and weight and experiment with the tuning of your cables or chassis. If your try materials that are the same, the size of that material affects their reactive value and you can easily hear this as well. So the material choice could be the right one but it's initial choice of size maybe the wrong one..You have to try a few of the same family to get it most right. This test can be easily changed, compared and repeated and may be fun for only a few but may add value to your broad audio experience. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, about non ferrous knife edge- How about a ceramic knife blade!!!
about airborne vibration, I have seen using weight (mostly lead)
on power and signal cables for some time with Wonderful results.
One need put the right amount weight, of the right type, in the right places. Achieving that produces exceptional low noise, air, bass, dynamics, detail and listening fun.
I have 2 five pound lead filled wood blocks on my CT-1 U Speaker waveguides. as well as the Mini's and platforms mentioned by Tbg |
Theaudiotweak, at the top of my pile is the Harmonix cable support. True this may not be the best vibration isolator, but the enomous variation in performance between just the 18 kv isolator or no isolator suggest that static is a greater threat.
I did find that putting StillPoints Ultra Minis which have ceramic ball isolation within them did help the sound of platforms of wood filled with shot.
There really is much to explore with isolation of cables in addition to components. |
Interesting idea.
Regards, |
you are welcome TBg, let me know If may be of any help with anything else, cheers. |
What I proposed limits the material contact between the floor surface and any cable.When you limit the surface area for a charge to jump across you also reduce the vibration that can be conducted from the floor to the cable. Neither proposal limits or reduces airborne vibration that will disrupt most all cables to some degree. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, but my experience is that even most dielectrics aren't any good. Static electric charge is probably the culprit. |
Basically using a non ferrous knife edge for minimum contact area. |
Theaudiotweak, I think this is the opposite of my experience as you are using conductive materials, while I'm using non-conductive materials. |
Tom, Thanks. Audiolabyrinth, Thanks.
Great to learn even more ideas on this.
Tweakaholics Unite!!
Dave |
Brass sheet material cut into small pieces laid on edge between the carpet and cables works wonders. It is a balancing act of sorts but once elevated stays in place. The material and minimalist contact area between the threads and the cable are the benefit at work. Same could be achieved with brass bent and joined at right angles to form a T to rest on a hard floor material placed between the flat surface and the cable. Tom |
|
@ TBG, Hi, As it turns out, the brown top ceramic isolators are available!, go to audiogon member, Red_dragon_audio_, e-mail them, the dealer there name is Ryan Tew, tell him audiolabyrinth sent you, cheers. |
Nic10pin, yes, I talked with him about all of this. He thinks rubber may be sufficient. I agree that it may be sufficient, but I would never be satisfied with it. |
tbg..Ricks response re wave guides, etc, on carpets...
Nick the issue is static energy - it can and does hold a bond on the signal in the cable itself. The more dry the climate the greater the issue.
I recommend the use of Static Guard spray on the carpet under your cables. The spray will block electric bonds between the cable and the carpet itself. I would apply rather liberally and even wipe or rub over the carpet after spraying to allow a good penetration and bond with the carpet. It may/will have to be repeated every few weeks or months..
This should take care of most all of the issues associated with the floor and its static charge and can and should be done under all audio equipment and cables. The issue is not really a small one so you will hear a pretty good effect.
Rick did say that this is already in his Oddiphile episodes on YouTube, but was fine with me posting it here as well.
Nick. |
Audiolabyrinth, I've started looking for isolators to try TGB's idea so I'd be interested in what you find also. I will be trying at least 3 very different ways to support waveguides in the coming months and, as most folks know, I like to expound on my discoveries.
Thanks
Dave |
Thanks Nic, for you response.
Fyi that was Baltic birch plywood, birch trees that grow in cold weather
grow more slowly and are therefore, more dense with closer grain.
sound better that warm weather birch. if one wishes to nitpick.
I've been really enjoying all the interesting posts of late!
Dave |
Audiolabyrinth.....how many of the ceramic,brown topped isolators do you need..?.. |
Ddraudt..thank you for all your thoughts, v.interesting!
Rick is of the same mind as you, in that experimentation is key, as well as being fun.
Birch ply hmm? Will have to keep an eye out for some of that then. :-] |
tbg..have had a very interesting response from Rick re Wave Guides on carpets, so have asked his permission to quote him on here, as I am not sure if it would be correct to do so without asking.
As far as the isolation side goes, he is of the same mind as both you and Ddraudt, in that experimentation with different materials is key.
Such fun! |
TBG, I have E-mailed both dealers, asking if they have available the classic brown top ceramic cable isolators, I will let you know their answers over the next few days, cheers. |
Yes, but as I said I am pretty sure they are out of business. Also, I can no longer find the brown top ones. |
Thankyou TBG, I do have the brown top ceramic audio isolators saved on my watch list archive, I believe I may have two places to get them when I am ready, I was currious of the isolators you talked about on the above threads, I never knew of them. |
Audiolabyrinth, I don't think they are in business. Try ceramic audio isolators on Google. There is a company that has a brown on top and white on the bottom isolator that is still available. I don't really know that the brown glaze is best but it was used by utility companies forever. Of course, they also used glass one, which in my experience, are no good. |
TBG, Is rightway audio in bussiness?, can you provide a link here so that I may see their offerings?, thanks Tbg. |
Tbg...
Many thanks for your advice - will search out some glazed ceramic from my garage then.
Will also email Rick as you suggest.
BR: Nick |
Nic10pin, I have found it fun to experiment with different materials and
methods for waveguide iso. A friend of mine makes isolation tables so I have tried 3 different size iso platforms with 2 types of feet.
Finite Element cerabase classics and Stillpoint Mini SS.
l like the larger base (which is 14' x 18' x 2.5") with stillpoints.
I also have damping blocks in top of the waveguides and some Rf If shielding around. This gives me the best sound so far.
Hopefully, soon I will be completely re arranging my equipment set up
and, at that time, i plan to experiment with raising my cables up by adding a pedestal stands under the iso tables. I may experiment with ceramic but isolated from the floor and the touching waveguides.
To me, ceramic by itself sounds like ceramic- cold and hard.
I believe that you could use different types of wood, ceramic coffee cups, ceramic risers, a speaker stand for a small speaker, lead filled wooden stand. IMO I would avoid too soft a material like carpet, cardboard, plastic OR too hard material like glass, granite, concrete blocks, steel, brick and never use orange clay flower pots (sound awful). I like the sound of Baltic Birch plywood.
Do you know Tsushima1, Roger from London? |
Nic10pin, no cables should ever touch the floor and the best isolator is glazed ceramic. The guy that used to own Rightway Audio used to argue also that only one isolator per cable should be used. This is pretty easy if you have a high single isolator.
All of my HF speaker cable WGs have been use atop my 18kv 15 inch high isolators with a Rightway audio isolator taped to it and a Harmonix cable supporter on top of it. Overall, they are about 22 inches high.
Email Rick and ask him. |
Hi everyone, me again with yet another question.....
currently have CT-1E speaker cables on demo, but don't know what are the best supports for the WGs which are on the floor - thick carpet/wood/brick/ceramic?
Any suggestions much appreciated.....just loving my music now :-)))
Nick (over the pond in UK) |
The CT-1 would seem to be a tremendous value. It is the" entry level" of the High Fidelity line, it will still be an upgrade compared with many cables in the marketplace. |
The CT-1 are not being discontinued, and they are selling. I don't know where this came from Norm. |
New HF articles on the way!
I hear Reviewers are working on new articles about the
HF Ultimate Reference products. the next new report on UR cables
and the first official report on the HF UR Magnetic Wave Guide Power Filter. I'm excited to read these when they appear.
D |
Leicachamp, The CT-1 was years in development and for me a real eye opener in the potential of Magnetic conduction. The openness, effortlessness and natural sound showed me something wonderful
and exciting I had never experienced. Then I heard the 1E and it was a lot better. adding to my excitement and fun.
Having followed the progress closely, I've seen Rick get even more excited as he experimented with magnets 10 times stronger. Rare earth magnets are produced in limited quantity and are 10 x more expensive.
( i think they use magic meteorite dust)
Continuing to add more and bigger and more powerful, expensive
magnets have continued to advance the miraculous magnetic effects.
I liked Jack Roberts article, Dogogo feb 2014. in the end he rates all the cables he has heard in 3 decades from 0 to 100% .
HF UR 100%, HF U, 75%, HF E 60%, HF CT-1 50%,
ALL OTHR CABLES 0% - 40%.
Although I agree that all other cables I've tried in 30+ years are less than High Fidelity cables, my experience puts the Ultimate at least 4 times better than Enhanced, and the UR
10 to 100 times better than the Ultimate. YMMV
It appears no one is ordering CT-1 new anymore and they appear on Audiogon and other sites as audio friends are able to move up the line. I'm sure all the CT-1's made will be enjoyed for years to come and i believe if there were orders coming in they would be filled. D |
Leicachamp, there is another reason for discontinuing the original CT-1s, namely that they aren't selling.
On your other posting, I did use CT-1Es with another company's speaker wire for a while. They too were improved by having the Enhance cables upstream. |
Has anyone found that their existing speaker cables sound better than the HF CT1? |
