Checked Herron's website, but can't make out which tubes are being used...
Are they 5687s or the ubiquitous 6922/12AX7 variants??
Can these be rolled?
What's the retail price? |
Hi everyone,I got my VTSP-3A preamp back from Herron Audio four days ago and it has been on continually since. Although it is still breaking in, I can discern several areas of definite improvement. The most obvious to me is in dynamics.It will now rock your boat from a dynamic standpoint. The width of stage is wider and more defined and the depth of stage seems to go straight back from the sides with no truncation from the sides toward the center. I thought that the VTSP-3 was quiet but the 3A seems quieter in that it allows more space between notes. This is particularly evident on solo piano music but is also noticeable in general listening. Tonality wise it is spot on in my humble opinion. After having played the violin for nearly 60 years and in several symphony orchestras as a reference, I feel that the 3A reproduces the true timber of instruments very realistically.
As it continues to break in ,I will update any further changes that I notice.
Violin |
Mitch,
If and when you get the Herron, please post your impressions. I'm especially interested in how it compares with your Lamm, as these two are in my short list and I have no way to audition both in my system.
Thank you and have fun!
Horacio |
Thanks guys. My speakers (Aerial 9) and amps (Clayton M300's) will do the bass if the preamp passes it through. My current Lamm LL2 does a fine job of that, and so did my TEAD Vibe/Pulse, although a bit less dynamic but slightly better defined than the Lamm. The CAT was absolutely killer in the bass, but had other issues I liked slightly less than with the Lamm. I enjoyed the clarity, tonality and purity of the midrange I heard when I had the Herron M1 amps, but I have never owned his preamps and was concerned with comments I have read about perhaps too much neutrality and not enough body, warmth, and bass. It sounds like he has bridged that gap with the 3/3A so I will consider giving it a try. I really could use a good balanced preamp, but have pretty much given up on that since most of the best I have heard in my price range have all been single-ended. Thanks again for your comments about the Herrons. |
Hi Guys, one , if not the biggest improvements that I have heard from a change to my system occurred last year when I replaced the stock power cord for the VTSP-3 with a Synergistic Research Tesla T-2 power cord. The improvement was noticeable in all areas. Later, I also installed a SR Teslaplex wall outlet and that added even more improvement but not the equal to the power cord change. That was huge.
By the way, Keith shipped my 3A yesterday and I should have it Tuesday. I will report on my observations after burn in.
Later,
Carter |
I agree with Sflazor. No need to be concerned about the bass performance from the VTSP-3A. However, just like Violin said, there is a lot of other factors involved as well. |
Mitch2, the VTSP-3A has incredible bass. I have auditioned/owned many of the top contenders from CAT, Conrad Johnson, First Sound, Modright, Audio Research, etc. and none of them matches the bass I get from the VTSP-3A with my Rowland Model 10 amp. I am using Proac speakers and one would think that I have a subwoofer given the terrific bass in my system. Your interconnects and speaker cables are two variables you must consider also. I have found that the quality and quantity of bass will vary greatly with changes in your interconnects and speaker cables. I am using Shunyata Antares speaker cables and the newest Wireworld Silver Eclipse interconnects and have found they are both champs in detail, clarity, and frequency extensiion (bass and treble alike). |
Hi Mitch, deep bass is so dependent on a lot of things, not just the preamp.First it has to be present on the record or Disc. I have a dedicated listening room which is 23' lg and that calculates to a room resonant frequency of 24HZ for that length.In this room with the Herron 3 I get a solid 25hz bass when measured with a Real Time Analyzer and calibrated mike.Herron is shipping my modded 3A this Friday and I am very eager to listen to the improvements.
To answer your question IMHO, if you have a room whose dimensions will allow deep bass and speakers that can reproduce it, then you should have no trouble. The Herron preamp can certainly provide the deep base signal to the amps.
I believe that you would be very satisfied with the 3 or 3A.
Regards,
Carter |
I have been looking for a new preamp and I keep coming back to the Herron 3A as one to try. The Herron has great features, which I would consider a bonus, although my only consideration is sonic performance and I really don't care about remote volume, etc. I do however, think the phase and gain adjustments on the 3/3A are beneficial. My question for current owners of the 3 or 3A is, how does the bass reproduction compare to other top contenders? For comparison, preamps I have owned that had what I consider to be good bass reproduction with adequate weight, power, and definition include a CAT SL1 Ultimate MkII, Lamm LL2 Deluxe, and TEAD Vibe with Pulse power supply.
I understand Herron products are known for a natural tonality and quietness (two attributes I am looking for), however not at the expense of other key factors. The only Herron products I have owned were a pair of M1 monos, which sounded beautiful, refined and conveyed an uncommon naturalness, but which for me didn't provide sufficient power and weight, especially in the bass. I have read similar comments about the first two iterations of the preamp being neutral and natural sounding, but somewhat "light" in the bass. Does the VTSP-3A truly improve on those earlier models in areas of warmth and bass impact? |
My herron takes me to the live concert! When i play orchestra i can enjoy his sonic performance on bass, the mids and treble...all is perfectly balanced. |
I only have a problem with dealers that call me Francis.:). Yeah, I wish there was and edit button. Oh well. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like neither the First Sound and the LL2 have remote control. That might matter depending on what your listening habits are. For me, I have a computer as a source. Of course this allows me to choose any song from any album at any time. Most of the recordings have different loudness so since I do a lot of switching it is nice to have the remote since I adjust the volume levels frequently. If had a cd player or table as a source, then it wouldn't matter as much. In that situation I normally would just play that one artist or album during the listening session. Being able to control sources from the Herron remote is a nice too. Anyway, good luck with whatever direction you decide to go, looks like you have a great preamps on your list. |
Kclone: no, not a deal killer at all. BTW, you didn't mean dealer killer did you?? you don't like your dealer too much, ah? :-)
Just wanted to know to understand what one gets for the price. The LL2 and the First Sound don't have a phono either, and I don't have a turntable although at some point I'd like to.
I had thought the VTSP-2, with all its ergonomic features, traded some sonic benefits for ergonomics, very much like a McIntosh C220. I guess I was dead wrong.
Looks like the VTSP-2 goes straight into my short list.
Thanks for the great tip! |
Lewinski, is not having a built in phono a dealer killer? |
Herron makes one of the best phono stages in audio. |
You need a phono stage for the Herron. Herron's own unit is a very good match as you would imagine. |
Thanks guys for the very good feedback!
It's really too bad I cannot listen to any of these components.
It's not the first time I read something about the First Sound leaning to the lean side in some systems. I'm thinking it might be too risky with my B&W 804S, even with the Rel on tap. BTW, amp is McIntosh MC275. I love everything else I read about FS, including references to Mr Go, but it might not be best for my system.
I've talked to a couple of LL2 and McIntosh tube amp owners and they love the match. However, at about the same sound quality, ergonomics in the Herron are an attractive plus. Interesting. Does it include a phono section? I see a Phono input, but no comments about the section.
Any and all further comments on these units are very welcomed! |
I had the First Sound in my system for many months - I know people who love it. In my system, the FS was very good but ultimately a bit leaner than I like, and I didn't realize by how much until I put the Herron in.
Remember, I was using the hot-rodded version of Keith's original preamp - not the 2, the 3 or 3a. The FS is excellent, excelling most comparable pres in bass and dynamics. But I felt the Herron had all that plus it was just...rounder...more natural sounding...totally effortless...just as dynamic...it's very hard to describe the differences actually, because the Herron gear doesn't really have a "sound". How do you describe the "flow" of music Herron achieves??? I haven't heard anything like it except with ginormously expensive components. While I was listening to music through the Herron I wasn't aware of anything missing at all - the sound was "whole". Completely satisfying.
Now, having heard the VTSP2 and 3, I know that those models do in fact improve on my pre - better bass, solidity, dynamics and air...but again, I was never aware of those qualities being lacking in the slightest with my pre in operation...even Keith's first preamps produce music of a whole cloth, very satisfying.
Lastly, and this might be a small thing for most people, but I also preferred the ergonomics of the Herron over the FS. It was just easier for me to use.
I loved my Joule Electra LA 150, as I'd loved the LA 100 MkII before it. The 150 is a wonderful preamp...as is its predecessor, but it's definitely on the warm side of neutral. Not by tons, but it defintely is. You can get it custom tweaked to suit your system, and it does better with an after market PC too (that tends to wake the J-E's up a bit).
I could've lived very happily with the Joule. I describe it as making music "more beautiful" than real life, and many people are seduced by this quality. If the FS and the Joule are the yin and yang of the audio spectrum, then the Herron is in the middle. But the Herron definitely beats the Joule in dynamics and top end, especially in big, complex orchestral music.
Never heard the Lamm in my system, and I would imagine it is superb, but possibly more system dependent than the Herron.
I think Keith makes killer preamps and amps for very modest prices, especially considering the quality. Not statement pieces, just amazingly musical gear. He and his wife are true music lovers - the Herron room always sounds excellent at any audio show, no matter how bad the room, no excuses, just good music. That's the kind of philosophy I can believe in. |
I just updated from #3 to 3A and I must agree with Sfazor.
I was very happy with my VTSP-3 but the upgrade to 3A status has been a revelation. Greater transparency, extended dynamics and more punch in the bass are immediately apparent. I also noticed more stereo separation.
I live in Australia and it took 1 month. It cost me more in shipping than the upgrade cost so I would say it was great value.
What I like a lot is the fact you have an upgrade path from previous models and don't need to go buy a whole new unit.
Also, Herron gear is not outrageously expensive like some other more well known hi-end brands. Plus the fact that Keith Herron is always on hand with help or advice makes it a no brainer for me.
I'm a BIG fan! |
Rackon, I agree with you. Until this thread appeared I thought that I was the only one on Agon that owned any Herron gear and wondered why more people did not mention Herron Audio.
Lewinskih01, I also have a Joule Electra LA 150 II and there are differences. In my system the LA 150 has great bass and mid-range, actually a little too much warmth,IMHO to be absolutely accurate, but the top end gets constricted when called on to reproduce the treble at loud passages.I understand that the A mod to the VTSP increases it's low end and overall dynamics which I thought were pretty great before.However I cannot comment on the A mod until I get my unit back and it breaks in.
In my system, I definitely prefer the Herron even as just the 3 over the LA 150.
Carter |
Lewinskih01, if Tvad is reading this thread, he could advise you regarding the LL2 and First Sound preamps, not sure about the Joule. IIRC, he said the LL2 is very system-dependent. If he doesn't pipe up here, you could always email him.
Bill |
Interesting thread. I've been eyeing the VTSP-2, though, that is in my short list with the Lamm LL2, First Sound Presence, and Joule LA-150, to be paired with a McIntosh MC275. Any thoughts sound-wise from experienced Herron owners who have also had First Sound and/or Lamm?
Thanks! |
Violin, yeah from what SFlazor posted above, it sounds like the 3A is considerbly better than the 3. Let us know your thoughts after it comes in.
I have been spending some more time listening, I still can't get over how good this preamp is and I'm still using the stock power cord and I have it plugged in to the wall too. I mentioned in my initial post, the Herron pretty much ehances or improves all aspects of the sound. I would describe it as a preamp that does not have any trade offs. It has good spacing, air, warmth, soundstaging, imaging, tone, yet at the same time has outstanding frequency extension and detail. |
Wow! A Herron thread!!
I love Keith's gear and think he must be one of the most underrated designers in audio. Whatever he makes...pre-amp, phono-amp, power amp - it just sounds like - MUSIC. Plus they are reliable and worry free. Why doesn't Keith get more ink???
I had Keith's VTSP-1a-166 and M150s and it was heavenly with my Alons.
I do think there's a definite synergy between the Herron pre-amps and power amps. I tried Rowland with my speaks ages ago but thought the Herron/Herron combo was terrific. I highly recommend the amps as well as the pre's, they simply don't get the praise they deserve.
I too had tried many big name preamps: Hovland, First Sound, ARC, Cat, Joule-Electra etc. For me the Herron just maed music sound "alive" and natural. The gear itself doesn't really "sound" like anything at all. It just gets the heck outa the way and lets the music roll.
I can't say enough good things about Herron gear, Herron service and Herron quality. Can't wait to hear the newest preamp, and hope this piece helps spread the word about Keith's products. |
Hi Guys, you have really stirred up my anticipation. My VTSP-3 is at Herron Audio now being updated to the 3A and I should get it back the week after next.Keith's audio equipment is everything that you have already stated,the best that I have ever used. I am using the Parasound Halo JC-1 mono amps in my system with the VTSP-3a.
Great gear.
carter |
Billspecfoc inquired regarding what amp I am using with my VTSP-3A. I am using a Jeff Rowland Model 10, which is a two chassis (separate control unit and power supply) 150 wpc solid state amp that I love. The synergy with the Herron is perfect. I have also used the Herron with an Reference Line amp that has 100 WPC pure Class A output. The Herron was perfect with the Reference Line also. One nice feature of the Herron is that it affords the user the ability to switch the preamp between a low gain and a high gain setting. With the Reference Line amp I use the low gain setting, but with the Rowland I prefer the high gain setting. The preamp is dead quiet on both settings. It is easy to switch between the two gain settings. One merely holds down the "phono" button for three seconds and the preamp switches from one gain setting to the other. When the preamp is switching from one gain setting to the other, it automatically mutes itself. Keith Herron thinks of everything. |
Agree on all the comments about the spectacular sonics of the VTSP3a (Disclosure: I sell Herron gear, Departure Audio). What I think doesn't get recognized enough with this piece is how intelligently it's designed and how good the ergonomics are. There are really useful features in this pre, i.e. balance, mono, phase, hi/lo gain, more than enough inputs/outputs, etc. It's also a joy to use with a large, readable remote-controlled volume display in fine increments. As noted, the tubes are run very conservatively and produce almost no noise. Reliability is also first rate. This is a very easy tube preamp for any music lover to own. It can assimilate easily into most any system and deliver its special magic immediately. |
Bill, I bet there is no doubt there is great synergy between the VTSP-2 and the M-150s. For me, I am using the Modwright KWA 150. I thought about maybe getting the M-150s, but now I just do not see the need, since introducing the VTSP-3A I don't see the need to do anything to my system. I had planned on playing around with speaker placement, not now, everything sound so good. I am planning on doing some room treatments, but again I don't see the need(however, I'm still going to go through with room treatments.) It is kind of like the VTSP-3A took care of all the sins in my system. How about you Bill, are you thinking about moving upgrading to the VTSP-3A?
Slazor, good post. like you I have heard my fair share of preamps. I have had preamps from Thor, Unison Research, PS Audio, ASL Twin Head II, Pathos, Audio Research REF 5, Red Wine Audio Isabella, and Musical Fidelity. I'm not ready to say it is the best out there, but it is certainly better than anything else I have heard or had in my system. |
Kclone and Sflazor,
What amplification are you using with your VTSP-3A's? I', running my VTSP-2 with Herron M-150's right now and I'll tell ya, there much be some sort of synergistic effect going on because the M-150's sound like they've been put on steroids since introducing the VTSP-2. I was using an Ultraverve with very good NOS tubes before introducing the VTSP-2 into the mix.
Bill |
I loved my VTSP-3 and felt it was perfect in every respect. When I learned that Keith Herron had redesigned this wonderful preamp and was offering an upgrade to the new VTSP-3A status for a very modest charge, I initially hesitated because I did not see how he could improve on perfection. Despite my doubts, I took the plunge and sent my VTSP-3 back for the upgrade. In less than three weeks I received my new VTSP-3A and could not wait to reinsert it in my system. What a stunning product! Keith did not upgrade my VTSP-3--he transformed it into an absolutely incredible preamp. He is selling himself short by calling his new preamp the VTSP-3A. It should be the VTSP-5 [the number "4" is bad luck in some parts of Asia]. This new preamp is superlative in every way. Anyone who is looking for a preamp--regardless of cost--must audition this product. Anyone who owns a VTSP-3 MUST take advantage of the upgrade Keith is offering. You will find the modest charge for the upgrade to be the best money you have every spent in this hobby. I have owned some very good preamps over the thirty plus years I have been in this hobby including top of the line preamps from companies such as CAT, First Sound, Sonic Frontiers, Krell, Pass and others. I have auditioned for extended periods of time other top preamps from Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Levinson, etc. The VTSP-3A is hands down the best of the best. It is dead quiet, absolutely transparent--crystal clear in its transparency--extremely detailed, a champ in sound staging, tonally perfect,and VERY musical. My favorite aspect of this preamp is the truth and accuracy of its tonality. A bell sounds exactly like a bell. A wooden instrument sounds exactly like it should. The preamp has incredible bass and beautiful treble that extends beyond the limits of your hearing. This preamp does not reproduce sound--it is a transducer that conveys the actual true sound that your brain recognizes as the real thing. In addition to my spending a great deal of time listening to music, I have an extensive collection of movies on DVD that I play through my stereo system. The VTSP-3A makes the movies come alive. I am hearing ambient sounds and details that I never knew existed on various sound tracks. The realism of the voices and of the sounds produced by the Herron is uncanny and greatly enhances my enjoyment of music and movies alike. I have no ties to Herron Audio and I am not a dealer. I merely am a very appreciative customer who would encourage anyone who is looking for the best to give the VTSP-3A a listen. You will be hooked if you give it a try. Keith Herron is to be commended for his undying search for perfection. He is a genius in engineering who happens to have a love for music. His products are dead reliable, and his design is kind to the tubes--they last forever in his preamps. The VTSP-3 and VTSP-3A are preamps that you can and should leave on 24-7--without any worry about tube wear. Herron preamps do not need tube life meters like the Reference 3 or Reference 5. At 4,000 hours, the Herron's tubes have not used any appreciable percentage of their useful life. There are no gimmicks here--just a wonderful product that is worth every dollar of your investment. |
