I just had my Green Mountain Audio Chromas upgraded to Chroma HX. The difference is the crossover, with the capacitors being exceptionally high-grade. The low-pass filter is specially made to Roy Johnson's specifications. Unobtainium (not for sale) Litz wire is used with the latest unobtainium solder. The change is dramatic enough to consider the HX a different speaker, even though the schematic is essentially the same.
And the result is absolutely stunning. I was expecting a substantial improvement, but I was unprepared for the result. It's going to be difficult to put this into words, but I'm going to try. Let's face, we've heard it all before.
I have never heard a speaker that so effortlessly plays music. Every note has more music in it. I guess you could call that greater detail, but the HX transcends that description. Perhaps I should call it harmonic richness. The sound is unbelievably accurate, yet musical, throughout the frequency spectrum. The copious bass digs down deeper while being more well-defined. I would call it high-definition bass, to coin a term. The midrange is similarly tuneful, clear and also hi-def. It just flows naturally and cleanly. I would describe the treble as ethereal, sparkly and airy, never bright.
The HX is also the most coherent speaker I have ever heard. The woofer and the tweeter coexist happily. It is impossible to tell where the crossover frequencies are. You cannot hear the port either, just the bass. I find myself listening for hours, without fatigue, because the music captures my attention and holds it.
The sheer accuracy seems to lend itself to the soundstage, imaging with pinpoint precision. You know where every voice and instrument is at all times. This is an area of audio that I didn't much care about previously, but I cannot ignore now.
Any criticisms? Well one, maybe. If you like to crank the bass hard enough to drive your neighbors to yell death threats, you're going to need a powered sub.
I have heard many speakers in my time, among them Wilson Audio, Joseph Audio, Paradigm, Triangle, Meadowlark, Dali, Thiel, Usher and Vandersteen. None of them can deliver what the HX can. It's not even close. If you have a pair of the already excellent Chromas, HXing them is a must. I have found the speakers that I am going keep for life in the Chroma HX.
Related equipment: Musical Fidelity A308cr with upgraded clocks Audio Note Kits DAC 2.1 Pass Labs B1 buffered passive pre modified for shunt volume control Pass Labs Aleph 3 power amp BPT BP-1 balanced power conditioner Audio Magic Matrix Mini power conditioner Pass Labs Aleph 3 power amp
I just received my GMA Chromas today.... I also just spent the entire weekend at the RMAF hearing big buck systems.
I must say, the GMA's have absolutely won me over. The imaging, precision, and lack of effort to play musically is absolutely captivating and far exceeds anything I heard at the RMAF except for maybe the PS audio room. It is far an away the most transparent speaker in my line up ( I also own some Spatial Audio Holograms, Gallo 3.1's, GMA continuum, Maggie-- 1.5's and MMG's, and GMA Continuum .5's)...
... and yes this my 'opinion'.. Colored sound or not these speakers, for the price are very hard, if not impossible, to beat...
@kenjit it is quite common for companies request specific drivers be custom made. You think most speaker companies make their drivers in house? I believe Zu uses Eminence drivers as do several other companies, but I am guessing they are not available for direct purchase. If you talk to Zu - they say on the Druid VI the driver is incredibly expensive to have made.
As far as Seas - I always thought they made fine drivers. What drivers would you put in your speaker?
It says: "For bass, a large ported box (1.3cf or so) and tuned to 40hz works nice."
The green mountain chroma is about 12 litres? Can somebody confirm the exact volume?
If so that's about a third of the required volume according to the simulations done by those guys.
So what happens if you stick it in a smaller box? Higher f3 and poor bass transient response. Which is the antithesis of green mountains claim of time coherence.
The tweeter used is SEAS H1462-06 27TDFNC/GW.
SEAS recommend a minimum crossover point of 2.5khz second order so it's being overworked by using a first order. Its impedance from 2khz to 750hz goes from 5 ohm to 13ohm so you're not getting a first order slope because the tweeter starts rolling off and the impedance rises. The 1uf zobel across the tweeter does nothing to correct the impedance hump. Is it a coincidence that the 750hz resonant frequency of that tweeter is one of areas of the frequency range that I hear peaks on certain notes?
The woofer has a 0.21mh coil which gives you first order electrical lowpass slope at 4ohm at 3khz but once you put the woofer in the cabinet, you won't be getting first order acoustic slope with a single coil.
Incidentally the values chosen for the tweeter zobel and woofer filter are the exact values that you get from an online calculator which suggests that no effort has gone into calculating them by measurements.
The importance of chamfering the baffle is greatest when the baffle is thick as in the green mountains. Similarly woofers should have very open baskets to miminise obstructions to the rear waves. In light of this, companies like b&w use drivers that have open basket designs. The aurasound woofer uses a resonant stamped frame which is not very open. The situation is even worse because it sits inside a thick baffle that surrounds the woofer from the rear.
No other high end speaker uses these parts based solely on their performance. It's bizarre to suggest that there are no better parts than these. I've seen high end tweeters and woofers with far greater extension than the aurasound or SEAS.
All the above are ommissions or mistakes that justify my view that the green mountains are not well designed
@kenjit I have owned 2 sets of GMA and liked each, still owning GMA EOS HX. I have also owned Gallo 3.1, Celestion, Klipsch Forte 1, Klipsch Chorus 2 and currently own modded Klipsch Cornwalls. My friends have had Zu, Joseph audio and von schweiker (quite familiar with these) - plus heard many other at shows
I like the detail of GMA and for monitors they are some of the best I have heard at their price point.
Again - if you dislike them I really encourage you to find speakers that you do like, instead of continue to love the speakers you hate. I suggest possibly Harbeth if you found GMA harsh.
I have spendor's in the living room, psb's downstairs, and Europa's in the bedroom. I love the sound of my GMA europa's. To each his own, good luck finding that perfect speaker.
The green mountains use no baffle step compensation, highly resonant cabinets which ring, very cheap parts and are highly overpriced for what you get. do you expect us to believe there’s not even one better woofer that money can buy than a 5 dollar car woofer?
The woofer is mismatched which is why you get poor bass. You need a bigger cabinet, or a different woofer. This is basic speaker design 101. Every bookshelf speaker I’ve heard or owned has deeper bass than the green mountains. No speaker has sounded as cold as the green mountains. This is mentioned even in the reviews. The crossover IS improperly designed because there’s no baffle step compensation and too much energy going into both drivers which is why 99% of speakers don’t use first order. The tweeter has no impedance correction either so youre not even getting a first order roll off over most of the bandwidth. Instead you get a severe hump at its resonance frequency which you can hear if you play the tweeter on its own. Green mountain do not send their speakers to be measured by reviewers so it’s impossible to know how they measure. But measurements don’t give you the whole picture and may hide any problems with the design. You would need a blind test where you listen to green mountain alongside yg acoustics, wilson audio, dynaudio, magico etc then I’m sure you’d hear which speaker was inferior or superior. Unfortunately despite being around for many decades green mountain audio is not widely distributed by all the hifi dealerships so it’s very unlikely that an opportunity to make such a comparison would arise. The dealerships that carry green mountain do not carry the big names like yg acoustics, but only other less well known boutique speakers. If you look at what else is available you can quickly see that green mountain are indeed selling you an overpriced product.
The coloration of the speakers is so bad that it’s easily heard by listening to the YouTube video I posted the link to.
The knuckle test clearly shows how badly the cabinet rings right in the midrange. Putting your ear against the cabinet reveals further ringing only on certain frequencies.
The baffle is so thick that there’s no room for the woofers rear wave to escape freely. This is all very poor design.
There are many reasons a designer chooses the drivers they do, and excludes the ones they don't. It depends on what they are trying to achieve. The out of band ringing of Accuton drivers make them a terrible choice for a first order crossover. If you look at manufacturer supplied response curves for ScanSpeak drivers, many of them have out of band behavior that would make them not suitable either.
Many of his older designs use drivers from many different OEM suppliers. High end OEM suppliers. Do you truly believe that Roy has not bought, measured, and tested many, many drivers for use in his designs? Do you believe he doesn't measure and adjust his speakers during the design process? If you do believe these two statements, there can truly be no discussion with you. A competing, and well respected manufacturer of really excellent sounding speakers (Duke of Audiokinesis), has stood up for Roy and vouched for his expertise as a designer. Which speaker have you designed and built? Where are your measurements of the Chroma that show how poor the design is? Where are your measurements that show uneven frequency response and out of band behavior of the drivers in question that show they are not suitable? Or that the crossover is improperly designed? With none of those things, you are nothing more than some guy, who may not hear particularly well, that has decided to go on a vendetta for some reason over something as insignificant as a speaker purchase that he didn't like.
@csmgolf I don't have much direct experience with any other bad speaker. The green mountains were the worst AND the most expensive I've had. Yes every speaker is colored but not to the same extent. There are different degrees of coloration, do you agree?
If you are so eager to respond to this topic, why don't you contribute by responding to the criticisms I've made? What do you have to say about the cheap car woofer used in their speakers? The cheap tweeter and the cheap crossover? Why aren't they using expensive accutons or scanspeak? Other manufacturers do, so why don't green mountain?
It doesn't matter whether there are other speakers as bad as green mountain. Green mountain is a case in point of a speaker that is engineered badly and should be avoided
This discussion could be educational to those that are unaware of the issues I've raised.
If you think they're so good why don't you buy them?
There are quite a few speakers out there that not only don't fulfill this definition but does a disservice by misleading us into thinking we are hearing high quality sound.
So why do you insist on harping on only one of them, and for years at that? You have said your piece on them over and over. Isn't it time to move on?
The green mountains are colored. Its not easy to prove but it's a fact.
EVERY speaker ever built is colored, bar none. Find the color you like and get on with life.
Hi end audio to me is about elevating the standards of audio reproduction not diminishing it. There are quite a few speakers out there that not only don't fulfill this definition but does a disservice by misleading us into thinking we are hearing high quality sound.
The green mountains are colored. Its not easy to prove but it's a fact.
It's important to separate speakers that are colored to suit people's taste from those that are engineered to elevate the art.
Using a cheap woofer in a 5k speaker is just not right.
Mismatching the woofer and the cabinet volume is a basic mistake that no serious speaker designer would make. The result is poor bass response. Even the reviews mention this. It's undeniable.
Why all of the carrying on about Green Mountain Audio and why has it been going on for so long? You don't come across as a savior, you come across as pathetic. I have yet to see any YouTube video that told me anything about how any system sounds, including that one. If one disappointment in speaker purchase bothers you this much for this long, maybe you should find another hobby.
@kenjit wrote: "Why are you so eager to prevent a discussion? What harm is there?"
You have demonstrated an agenda to disparage Roy Johnson and Green Mountain Audio, and you have done so unfairly. That’s not a "discussion", it is trying to do harm to someone’s reputation and business.
You probably don’t realize that you are being unreasonable (which happens when we let emotions call the shots). Let me show you. You also wrote:
"If you go online there are crossover calculators. Plug in 3khz 1st order, and you get 0.21mh on the 4ohm woofer which is the exact value used by green mountain. So no measurements were involved."
You could not possibly know that "no measurements were involved." That statement is unreasonable and unfair.
And there is absolutely nothing sinister about .21 mH corresponding to a 3 kHz first-order lowpass filter into a 4 ohm load. ANY inductor on ANY woofer is going to correspond to a first-order lowpass filter at SOME frequency.
It is possible that an emotional part of you thinks this kind unfounded attack constitutes "having a discussion", but switch over to your rational side. "No measurements were involved" is a completely unfounded and unfair conclusion. There is no way you could reasonably come to that conclusion based on the information you have.
(For anyone who is curious, this might be of interest: In practice, a single inductor NEVER results in a first-order electrical rolloff because the voice coil’s inherent inductance increases the impedance of the load the inductor sees as we go up in frequency. The net result is an electrical rolloff of less than 6 dB per octave. So other components are used to modify the impedance of the load that the inductor sees. And the inductor may or may not end up seeing a "textbook" constant-impedance load - it all depends on what the designer needs to do to meet his targets in the phase and frequency response and impedance domains. In other words, the additional components may result in the inductor seeing a load whose impedance intentionally rises and falls at different frequencies if that is what works best. Crossover design is about how the components all work together with the drivers’ characteristics to give the desired end results.)
Kenjit also said, "I would love to hear your explanation for [not using baffle step compensation]."
When you have demonstrated that you can have a discussion in good faith, we can have that conversation. But it will have to be in another thread - this thread is not about my stuff.
So I have a question for you, Kenjit: Does treasuring your grievances against Roy Johnson and Green Mountain Audio make you happy? I’m not asking whether or not your grievances are "justified" - grievances are ALWAYS justified to the person who treasures them. I’m asking, do they make you happy?
And if not, why do you hold onto them? Maybe it’s because, it never occurred you that doing so is a choice (and you would not be alone in that!).
If you choose to, you can simply say to yourself, "I’m tired of being angry (sad, discouraged, bitter, whatever) about this. I’ve done it for long enough. My grievances have offered me nothing that I truly want, so I’m letting them go." It may not work the first time because it’s a new way of thinking, but give it a fair chance.
Then start a thread about baffle step compensation and we can have that conversation.
The kinds of measurements and analysis he conducts, and the time coherent results he gets. Imo the things he can do well are a lot more difficult than the things I can (hopefully) do well.
99% of speaker companies don't care about time coherence. 99% Audiophiles don't either.
If it was so important, surely more people would pay attention to it?
If Roy says he used measurements in the design process and you say he did not, guess who we’re going to believe?
Hopefully you will believe neither of us and just do your own research to find out the facts. If you go online there are crossover calculators. Plug in 3khz 1st order, and you get 0.21mh on the 4ohm woofer which is the exact value used by green mountain. So no measurements were involved.
I have not used baffle step compensation since I was an amateur.
I would love to hear your explanation for that.
And in the meantime, why not let it go? How is that going to harm you?
I'm still waiting for somebody to answer the questions I've raised. Why are you so eager to prevent a discussion? What harm is there?
If you were happy with the PMC speakers I recommend finding something with a like sound. I have only heard PMC at shows and thought they were very good. Perhaps the PMC twenty .24 or something in the twenty lineup is what you should strive for.
I was not suggesting your amp wasn't good, but merely curious what it was. a solid state amp with 100 watts of power vs a 8 watt tube amp does matter.
I do find it somewhat odd that you haven't found a new set. I couldn't live for 6 years without a decent set of speakers.
There were no measurements. He just stuck a 0.21mh coil on the woofer and called it a day. No baffle step, nothing. The baffle is so heavily slanted that you're never on axis unless you stand up. All in the name of time coherence and all at the expense of a smooth polar response. Which by the way you'd never get out of a cabinet the shape of the chroma. Olsen showed that a cylinder is the worst possible shape yet the eos is essentially a tweeter sat on top of the cabinet with no boundary other than its faceplate. Could have used a waveguide at least!
@kenjit : "I think they are reasonable questions which require answers."
You clearly have an agenda. Let it go.
Kenjit: "Like what?"
The kinds of measurements and analysis he conducts, and the time coherent results he gets. Imo the things he can do well are a lot more difficult than the things I can (hopefully) do well.
I've asked a series of questions in this thread about green mountain speakers and their technology / design choices. These questions have not been answered but will not go away. I think they are reasonable questions which require answers. This has nothing to do with grievances. The questions are about the speakers, not the designer per se.
@mindlessminion
I didn't build it. It was pre assembled. I just put it in a case.
I've used it with my previous PMC speakers. If you are trying to blame the amp for the problems I've mentioned, that is ridiculous. Cabinet coloration, uneven frequency response and lack of bass are caused by the speaker. Nothing to do with the amp.
The UK distributor brought the green mountain Rio speakers over to my place to demonstrate. The same amp and room were used then. he set them up and checked. If the amp or room was that bad he would have mentioned it.
the funny thing is, the chromas I bought actually sounded worse than the original rios I heard.
the rios themselves still had the same problems with bass. But I preferred the sound of the crossover on the Rio.
It's also important to note that the woofers natural response can vary between batches. unless you measure each woofer to make sure, the crossover will no longer work properly.
But I asked green mountain Audio for the records of the frequency response. They would not provide it.
Kenjit, I looked at your previous posts. How long are you going to treasure your grievances about a speaker not working well in your room? As my granddaughter would say: "Let it go."
I compete against Roy. I have lost sales to him in the past and expect to lose sales to him in the future. He does things that are way beyond my ability as a loudspeaker designer. I have nothing but respect for him and his work. Not many speaker designers outright intimidate me, but Roy does. It's not that he's an intimidating person; rather it's because his expertise is genuinely on another level. Roy doesn't often choose to talk but when he does, I shut up and listen.
If your intention was to harm Roy and his company, I think it's backfiring... you see, now you've got his competitors sticking up for him.
The title of that thread and the very first reply to it simply confirms that the green mountains do not have a neutral tonality due to the resonances and incorrect bass response.
Some like resonance and poor bass response. Most do not. Obviously the designer of the speakers enjoys this type of coloration and perhaps can't hear it. That doesn't mean nobody else can hear it and find it unpleasant.
Not only do I own a set of GMA Callistos, I’ve followed every thread I can find on GMA speakers - I disagree with your “fact” that the vast majority of audiophiles end up disliking their sound.
I’ll not engage further; I’ll simply allow this thread to provide context:
Green mountain audio has been around long enough for audiophiles to know about them and try them out.
The fact is, the vast majority of audiophiles end up disliking their sound just like I do. Why?
Why aren’t they a successful company like Wilson audio or Magico? Why don’t we see more coverage in all the magazine reviews? Why aren’t they mentioned in reports from hifi shows? Why can’t green mountain audio have as many distributors as the other highly successful companies? Why is there such low demand for green mountain audio speakers compared with others?
Why do their cabinets ring like a bell when struck?
Why do they use cheap drivers when considering the price of the speakers there are so many other more expensive and better choices?
Where is the evidence for green mountain audios claim that their speakers are time coherent and that it’s important?
Where is the evidence for their claim that their use of special wire and solder in their speakers makes any audible difference?
@kenjit you are entitled to post your opinion, just as everyone else here is entitled to (quickly) read through your 41 other posts (as of this posting) to gain perspectives on your opinion. I wish you all the audio happiness in the world.
@kenjit it seems you bought the GMA many years ago and haven't moved on, nor bought anything else since. I have bought speakers I too regretted, but do not discommend the speakers, or company
GMA is indeed a small company - if you want to stir up a bees nest on 1st order cross-over and time-coherence post your findings in a Vandersteen forum.
cd transport going into a nuforce dac and then into a kit power amp. nothing special but more than adequate to hear any problems with the speaker like coloration, resonances, lack of bass, changes in sound as you move around, frequency response and so on.
Speaker design is not just an art it's also based on science. There are rules on what size box can be used with what driver parameters. This is a basic consideration. there are ways to measure cabinet resonance. Getting this wrong is a serious mistake. It will seriously affect the sound you hear.
I think it's important for audiophiles to learn and understand these things and the difference between bogus and genuine claims.
there are plenty of bad and expensive speakers out there. We need to understand how to identify and avoid them.
lots of good speakers out there. If you were unhappy with the Chroma I recommend moving on and not rehashing its design and what is or might be wrong - in my opinion not worth your time,
Once you identify the sound you like you can more easily find a system and speaker for your tastes. I have 2 main systems - sometimes I like a more detailed, with excellent separation and other times I like a warm polite sound.
I bought a pair of used Celestion 33s that I really like (Celestion I believe made the driver for the Spendor SP1). I also have the Cornwalls modded that I am listening to right now - Dire Straits in fact. You can find many great speakers for under 1K.
true...audition before you buy is best, especially new. I listened before I bought my GMA. Absent of that - you are relying on posts, reviews and documentation.
I have foregone "the listen before you buy" in cases where the used market is very solid - I think Klipsch heritage speakers, Harbeth, etc fit this category. In these cases you need to ensure you are receiving a quality product. If fore whatever reason the speaker doesn't live up to expectation you can sell without taking a major hit in the wallet.
It's not odd when you've been in this hobby a long time you learn that what you read in magazines is not always accurate. Ultimately what you read in magazines are opinions. Eventually you realise that opinions can differ greatly and there's no reason to value a reviewers opinion more than anybody elses
Magazines like 6moon do not even bother to measure the frequency response let alone claims about time coherency and more detailed information like distortion. Sterophile do at least carry out such kinds of tests at the end of their reviews. even then nobody has still figured out why some speakers sound better than others or what parameters should be optimised in a high end speaker.
The moral is never trust a magazine review simple as that. That is precisely the mistake I made when I bought the green mountains without spending enough time listening to it.
Ask the manufacturers for evidence which can be independently verified. We have every right to if you're spending thousands of dollars on a speaker. If they get defensive or don't reply, I would not bother with them.
@kenjit Odd - 6moons has reviewed several GMA speakers and based on my reading seemed to enjoy. In fact the Callisto was honored with one of their awards.
I currently own the EOS HX, fed by a Schiit DAC and LFD AMP. I find the system very good. Of course I never take measurements, but rely on my ears. My only comparison is what I hear at shows, in showrooms and visits to friends homes. In addition to the GMA, I currently own modded Cornwalls and Celestion Ditton 33 - I just sold some modded Chorus 2 speakers.
However, if you do not like that is understandable as I do not often like some speakers many find very favorable.
They are actually the worst speakers I've had even though they were the most expensive. I've heard b&w, revel, PMC, tannoy and others.
the reason green mountain audio is not mainstream is because the sound of their speakers is very colored.
most audiophiles do not enjoy coloration but there will always be some who do.
green mountain meets the needs of those people.
there is very poor bass response. the reason is the cabinet is too small for the woofer used.
The cabinet is made of highly resonant marble which rings. If you knock on it, you can easily hear it ringing.
The price of parts used is not proportiornate to the cost of the speakers. The woofer is a cheap aurasound ( 7-8 dollars each!) and the tweeter an old seas costing about 40-50 bucks.
the green mountain speakers make claims about time coherence, phase coherence and frequency response which are unproven and not independently confirmed.
They sound cold unrefined lack warmth and have a uneven frequency response. Bass is poor as mentioned. There is an exagerated sense of timing which some may enjoy but is tiring after a while.
green mountain is not a successful company because their speakers do not appeal to the majority of audiophiles. They have been around a long time and have not expanded. I believe they do not employ dozens of staff. It's a one man show and it always has been.
mindlessminion5 posts08-13-2018 12:06pm@ctsooner I suspect owners who have them like them - I rarely seem them used. I was hoping when the Super Nines were released there might be a few come up on the used market.
Yes, they do. I'm also not sure how many of the top ones they actually sell. That too would affect the number seen. I have personally seen three Orangoutangs sold (not sure which model they were as they make two if I recall).
One was actually a pair that was brought into a store I was at and when he heard what the salesperson showed them, it was a no brainer, lol.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
