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@ Ebm, Thats uncalled for!, shakeydeal is a gentleman that meant no harm!, do not disclose a response to me, I am out of here! |
Yeah, who gives a shik about spelling?
So there, I siad it. |
Who gives a shit shakey deal!! |
I'll go with JBL too, and maybe Klipsch. But JBL is better than Klipsch, imo. |
"LBL L100 Allman Bros!!"
How do you misspell JBL? You have to really be trying, no?
Shakey |
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Thiel CS 2.4, 2.7 or 3.7 -
great rock speakers! |
I vote for JBL speakers to rock, alot of your bands use the pro for stage use JBL speakers for a reason! you guessed it, I own JBL myself, Happy listening. |
Since we are attempting to breathe life into a 10 yr. old thread, get yourself a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls. Although they do it all well, they certainly shine on R&R.
Shakey |
a more sensitive speaker is going to sound better at lower listening levels. and will play loud if you want. la scalas are the best speaker I ever heard. and you could drive those easily with a 30 to 45wpc amp. and normal listening volumes would take about 2 watt, maybe 3. those would be class too. legacy makes some great speakers that are efficient and 4ohm. a 4ohm speaker will vary from 4ohm to 8 ohm and average out about 6. an 8ohm speaker will dip as low as 4ohm at times. a good amp even if listed as 8ohm will handle 4ohm. the amp will differentiate the loads attached. speakers with lower sensitivity values require more power. more powerful amp costs more, and uses more electricity. not my first choice. about 89db or better. the greatest sounding speakers I ever owned were Advent 6003s. I drove those for years with a 20wpc Scott tube amp, and then with a 40wpc Jolida amp. That was real sounding. Axiom is a great buy. The M80 are fine and for $245 upgrade to real wood veneer with 30 day free in home trial. why would you not want to try these? shipping is free too. Everyone has a different opinion and favorite brand. So many of us though want to change after a few years. So? Let your ears be the judge and nothing else- forget graphs. If a speaker needs lots of power then it is making inefficient use of the power given it- like a car that gets low gas mileage. wasteful. get a pair of RF-7s. |
oh, just one more thing based on what I experienced.
I listened the the studio 60's way back when I was looking for speakers. They were nice up top and all, but had no bass at my regular audio salon. I listened to the 80's in another room and they kicked out the bass. Now the 60's were hooked up in a lousy sound room to parasound halo stuff. That is why I went 80's.
Today I listened to the 60's at a completely different place and the bass was fantastic. The whole bottom end just filled in like it was supposed to. I guess it was room acoustics as well as different electronics. So do not be put off right away by one bad listening session. If you guys get the opportunity to listen to the same speakers at different locations, you might get a better idea of what the speakers really can do. just two more of my cents..... |
Hey guys,
I just came back from a checking out some speakers at this new audio place they opened up in NYC. I was actually down looking for a cd player but could not resist sampling some of the floor models. I checked out the AUDES O37, Snell E.5mk2, Studio 60's, and some JM Cobalt 816's. I loved the audes 037 as it was a little laid back but had that impact I love. The bass was really good. They were super easy on the ears. The snells were also pretty good and had a good presentation on rock but the only thing that worried me was that I might (only after prolonged periods of loud music) might give me some listener fatigue. They were a bit mid range forward at higher levels. The paradigms were def more forward on the highs as I am used to on the 80s. I also listened to some tannoy floor standers but was not impressed. They sounded a bit hollow.
If you guys can, check out the audes speakers or the snells. You will like them. Although it is up to individual tastes, you may like what you hear. As far as the Silvers, I would not really sleep on them. They are refined but do have good imaging and great dynamics. The JM were a bit bright but sounded pretty nice anyway. You might need to spend some time with critically listening to them. One thing I should mention is that I listened to these speakers on a creek integrated/NAD CD player. Not the very best stuff but overall really good. Imagine better electronics would do these speakers real justice. I used Oysterhead, Phish, Bela Fleck and the Flektones, as well as some Van Halen for sample cd's
The guy I dealt with was really nice and cranked em up to concert levels when needed. He showed me a pair of $4000 JM Lab Electra 926's and I got blown away. It was hooked up to a YBA Complete System. Damn! Might have to sell the motorcycle to finance those babies. He wants to cut me a good deal hehe. |
Tweak, exactly what I'm looking for. Nice detail, bass & the "live" experience in the living room. There are plenty of choices here but I can not demo most of them. I was leaning towards the Golds but I want more detail in my recordings & not less. |
Phizzer,just from what you said I think I'm not even going to give the PSB's a listen.
I too have herd many rockers like the Klipsch line.Only the lines they REALY like is the older stuff like the Hersey.
I don't know about you guy's but I am not looking for a painfully articulate speaker.Most of what I listen to wasn't recorded that great.I'm more about the music having a live fealing with some detail, and some slamin bass.
I'm not talking slammed Honda crank'n Sir Mixalot bass either.I like some high's in there also.
Have any of you guy's ever heard speakers called Mach One?
They were produced by Realistic in the late 70's to the early 80's.They also use horn mids and tweat's with a 15inch woofer.Laugh if you wan't, but they actualy don't sound to bad for cheap. |
Anyone have any experience with the new Q series Kefs?
Those look really nice but I haven't heard them. |
I use a pair of Modified NEAR M15's and will be getting a set of NEAR M50's that are really phenominal on everything I have heard them with.
Alot of rockers like Klipsch ,but I think for myself I would try VMPS.I heard some Vany's and was not to impressed,but the amps and CDP might have been liable.
B&W's are not to shabby either,but my NEARs had them in soundstage articulation, detail and Bass.
I would like to hear the speakers from Monitor Audio also. |
I found a pair of Montana's that I really enjoyed, they are smaller than I wanted but so far have the sonic characters I am looking for. I do not have a PSB dealer near me with Golds & still have to check out the Matrix's this week. So the search is still on, I'll keep everyone posted. |
Tweakster,
like the choice in your music and we seem to listen to a lot of the same stuff. I agree with you on your assesment of the vandersteens. As far as the 100's go, they do need juice to crank them but they do a pretty good job on rock imho. You must like a speaker that is a bit more forward so that wailing guitar can stand out and really come at you the way you want it to. Let me know what you think of the gold's when you listen to them. To me, they are a little more laid back and smoother. I do not know if you will like it in that respect. NHT' require serious juice to crank em. |
I should have mentioned the 100's I listend to were the V2'S. |
I listend to both the Vandy 2ce's and the Paradigm Studio Reference 100's at my dealer.
I also listen to rock n roll.Rush, Metallica, Stevie Ray Vaugn, Iron Maiden, Hoobastank, Megadeth, and Disturbed are some of what I choose.
I listend to a bit of all of it on both speakers.
I realy liked the sound of the Vandy's, with their matching sub. Even with the sub they didn't quite go low enough for me.They don't go loud enough for me either.
The 100'S will go loud enough but be prepaired to give them lot's of juice, for when the bass gets a cook'in with groups like Disturbed, they need it, like 250+.
As one reviewer also mentioneed they don't throw that big of a soundstage, and in my opinion they were lacking when the electric guitars went off with soaring solos.
I passed on both for the reasons mentioned.
Look you I need to look at those NHT'S or the PSB Gold's. |
All things considered, I was using a old Hafler Dh200 with the Paradigms which isn't the best amp. Now that I am into tubes I couldn't be happier!!! |
As a former owner of paradigm studio 100v2's and a lover of hard rock and classic rock. VMPS took me to heights paradigm never dreamed of. |
I actually found my Paradigms slightly bright (what a shocker) until I got the Odyssey Amp. Now they are nice 'n smooth. That amp made a HUGE difference over the NAD 5 channel I was using before.
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How right you are Joew, Many find Proacs dull at the top end. I love the top end. How right you are!! |
In your opinion of course.
No offense taken. Speakers are probably the most subjective peice of equipment out there. So, while you may think the Paradigms suck, I actually found them better than most I heard at twice the price. Once they broke in they got even better.
Without the beauty of differing opinions there would only be one speaker company, one amp company etc etc.
Keep the ideas coming.
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I am sorry if I offended anyone. I purposely put in IMHO. I don't want to push my preferences on anybody. I guess that happens when we are totally honest in our opinion. Now here I go again. You said best sounding speakers for the money. Please don't take this personaly. Which Paradigms did you buy and how much did you spend? I bet you $5.00 I can find you 2 pair that sound alot better for the same price you paid. |
There is a pair of B&W Matrix 804's close to me that I am trying to audition next week. At this point I think I should hear as much as possible. Moving the Vandersteens around last night didn't help much so I think I must move ahead & find a pair that will fit into my room. |
Glad I didn't listen to Scottht before I went out and got the best sounding speakers for the money in the Paradigms. Sheesh. Next time don't sugar coat it and tell us what you really think.
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Fishwater -
There is a pair of used Coincident Partial Eclipses on Audiogon now. The higher efficiency of these speakers would give you plenty of headroom, and I think you'll find them to be articulate and nicely voiced. I can't say for sure they'll image better than the Vandies (which are very good in this respect). But their 92 dB efficiency compares very favorably with the 86 dB efficiency of the Vandies. To put it into perspective, you'd need FOUR TIMES the amplifier power to drive the Vandies to the levels your McCormack will drive the Coincidents.
Duke |
I was thinking of the sub but really would rather put that money into another speaker. It seems so hard to top the Vandy's on paper (everyone seems to love them) but they are not working in my room. I have a few friends reccomending the B&W CDM7's but I have no way to borrow them & use them in my system. I have never heard anything other than a friends DM303's. I want to make a move but I also want to make sure it is a step up, not sideways or down. |
I was using Vandersteen 2ci's up until about a month ago.These were originally coupled with a 130w Rotel Rb981 amp and an Rc980 pre. Then I changed to a Parasound php-850. Got a little more bass response but my the vandys' always flash notoriously when I played any thing heavy like creed or metallica. They are just not made to crank although they were fab on Jazz and softer rock. Was using with a Paradigm pw-2200. Then tried the Studio 80's and really enjoy them now. Speakers are so subjective-it really depends on what you are looking for but give them a listen. You will like either the 100's or 80's. Given the fact that I did have the sub, I saved the bucks and got the 80's over the 100's. Note that the tweeter does take a long time to break in. |
IMHO Paradigms suck for rock and roll. Just MO. I have had several different models that I had tried in my HT setup. I didn't even think they worked well for HT. They have the worst tweeter I have heard in any level of speaker. Actually I think they suck for any music. I believe either the Triangle or B&W would provide alot more value for the money, and sound ten times better. |
Fishwater,
I know you don't want to go down the sub avenue, but I would suggest adding a Vandy sub if you can fit it into your room.
I don't own Vandy mains, but I do own a 2Wq sub. I have a friend that owns a pair of 2Ci's, which I am currently borrowing. I was listening to them this weekend in my 13'x17' room. My amp (Bryston 9BST) was clipping very briefly and the idiot light in the speakers never turned on.
The sub will take some of the load off of the amp and the speakers, allowing them to play louder and cleaner. Things were quite loud when my amp was maxed out. I don't know how loud you want to go, but it my room, they were pretty darn loud with R&R. I am not sure how much more power the speakers could take since my amp gave out first.
If the 2 Sig's don't really work for you in your room, then finding new speakers is your best approach. If you do like them, give them a shot with the 2Wq sub. It should give you better bass and more volume headroom. |
Paradigms are a very underrated speaker. They have zero snob appeal but we want great sound not greatly exaggerated prices right?
I run the 60's with a PW2200 sub and they are excellent. Great value.
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Inexpensive solution..Paradigm Studio 100 or VMPS RM2... |
Hi!
You might get a chance to hear Triangle loudspeakers. They match pretty good the criteria you mentioned.
Some of they floorstanders are suitable to close wall siting and really can Boogie. The fun factor is realy enormous (if the connected electronics are up to it). I listen to Rock mainly (they are GREAT with Live music!) and am very happy with their presentation. It's hard for me to find a alternative to them if you like loud Rock music but also want refined and (very) detailed allrounders. I believe the Vandersteen's (i like the Vandy 3CE very mutch) will look bland in comparison with them (especially dynamially). CJ amps work wonders with them but don't know about DNA...
Either you'll love 'em or hate 'em...
Cheers! |
Those are the ones I was interested in listening to. Yours is the most glowing review I have heard yet on Paradigm. I am a little nervous to get rid of my Vandy's for another speaker (b/c they are so highly rated by everyone around here) but they just aren't doing what I need them to do for me. So what if Paradigm has no snob apeal, I guess I just need to listen to them & decide for myself. |
You should take the drive over to the Paradigm dealer and give the 80s and 100s a listen. They will play plenty loud; have excellent, deep, tight, bass; image quite well; and look very elegant if you opt for one of the real wood finishes.
I currently have a pair of 80s in the rosenut finish and I'm quite pleased with them - bought 'em off A'gon a couple years ago and don't intend to upgrade anytime in the near future. They are used in a mixed 2ch/5.0ch setup and I do not feel compelled to add a subwoofer, they have plenty of low register output.
Female voices and guitars are particularly pleasing, and I find the soundstage to be wide with very good, pinpoint imaging. In my room, 15'x18', they are placed on one of the long walls, approx. 15" from the wall and toed-in about 15 deg. I have placed them within 6" of the back wall with little degradation of imaging, and a small (un-needed in my case) increase in bass output. They are front ported and can sit close to the wall if needed.
I am usually seated about 12' away, centered. The "sweet spot" is 2 people wide, but you can still get decent imaging even when seated 3' to the left or right of the sweet spot.
They are reasonably efficient and play plenty loud with decent amplification - I've used an Adcom 6000, an Acurus 125X5, and currently an HK Signature 2.1 and AlphaCore biwires to drive them. Everyone leaves the house when I get to rockin'!
Look good, sound good, relatively inexpensive - what's not to like? |
The B&W DM603-S2 can really rock. Not sure about how the new S3 compares. |
What about Paradigm's ? I have a dealer less than one hour from here & they would probably take my Vandies in trade. |
I listened to the PSB Gold's on an Acurus DIA100 100watt integrated and they would be excellent rock and roll speakers. They might even put out more bass because they are ported, just not as low. You are in good shape with the PSB's because the bass port is on the front.
http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/StratusSeries.html
Check out the pictures and user manuals are online. |
I was at my friend's for dinner last night, and his mid-80's vintage Polk SDA-1A's sounded incredible! I had just gotten him to buy some custom made Sound Anchors stands for them and the bass became so much more focused and tuneful. The rest of the spectrum seemed to improve also. These speakers look like the Vandy's (there are a pair of Polk SDA-1B's for sale on this site right now, for $650, and the seller has a picture of them, they look just like my friend's) and are designed to go right up against a back wall. That's how he has his placed, and the imaging and music are really fantastic. I know these are an old design, but these speakers are really a classic. Now that he's added the stands, he will probably be keeping them for another 15 years. |
Reading Sterphiles review of the 2.9's they state NHT designed the speaker to be at a right angle to the rear walls, which will not work in my room. What about PSB silvers or golds? |
I have owned NHT 3.3's for 3 years and they go deeper than the 2.9 which have a sealed 10" sub on each speaker versus the 12" sub on the 3.3's. Because of the angled front setup for proper imaging it really easy!
Just get them as close to the back wall as you can, make sure they are perpedicular to the back wall and parallel to each other. Seating position for correct imaging is 1.3 to 1.5 times the distance between the speakers. and adjust the angle of the speaker up/down with the spikes based on your couch height!
3.3's will do 23hz and it is tight and solid, visually they don't take up a lot of room because they are so thin. If they stick out too much into the room then get the 2.9.
Later you can biamp them with an NHT SA-3.
Actually I have had a problem owning my NHT 3.3's in apartments and currently I have had to pull them off the back wall 13" so they don't get me thrown out. Also My Velodyne 18" sub sits disconnected for movies because of the bass being generated. If you can't get enough output out of the NHT's then you have lost serious hearing!
The satin(Italian) black doesn't show fingerprints like the gloss black does.
Disclaimer, I am selling my pair on Audiogon because I'm moving and I plan to upgrade to another excellent imaging speaker (Wilson 6's or 7's depending on funds) that is full range at 4+ times the price after I move.
You can see them in my system in an 11x11 foot apartement room (Yuk) Chris |
Craig's giving you good advice. I owned the 2.9's for two years and they were excellent, especially given their price range. I would assume the 3.3's would be even better. Both will benefit by being driven by good electronics - they're very revealing. But, as Craig says, they are made to be placed basically against the back wall. They go deep and loud - you won't blow them up to be sure. The 3.3's go for less than $2K used here on A-gon, the 2.9's for around $1200. They're a different-looking speaker, so research, but their gloss-black finish is very nice. -Kirk |
Fish; I just looked up NHTs for sale, and it's the 2.9 model I was thinking of-- there are at least 3 pair for sale in the Vand. 2Cesig price range. BTW, I've owned 3 pairs of 2Cesigs and my experience was like yours, ie I could get the warning lights to come on without much trouble. The 2Ces were not designed to be played above about low 90s SPL, but I'm quite sure the NHTs are though. Both the 3.3s and 2.9s have been reviewed by Stereophile quite awhile ago. Cheers. Craig |
NHTs are designed for placement against the back wall and they are known to Rock-- don't know if they have a model in the $1000.-$1500. range. In fact I don't know if they're still in business-- maybe changed hands. There should be some good ones around used though. Corey Greenberg, when w/ Stereophile, used to Rave about them and the way they rocked. Good Luck. Craig |
