Not too many audiophiles want to spend money on a Stillpoints rack.
But it is the only component in my stereo still left from 2016
(besides an Oyaide R0 outlet).
I am always amazed at how much it improves the performance of a component.
I still use the acrylic shelves, since I can fit multiple components onto one shelf (versus the grid where you can only place 1 component on each shelf).
I would probably never listen to music without the rack.
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One last point i want to make is that total isolation is not even desirable as there would not be a conduit for the vibrations generated inside and outside each units case to dissipate quickly. The ultras through contacting the units rid the vibrations as friction and heat. Obviously this cannot be done in total isolation as the ultras must contact unit in order to remove harmful vibrations. I just as Tbg have found the ultras to far surpass any prior device in improving the sound of my system. In fact, i was not happy with my new system until the ultras were applied.To explain why i am so sure, later this week when time allows i will write about my Odyssey of spending a 100k+ on my new system and not being happy and in fact left pining for my previous stereo until ultras were put in.Marc |
Theaudiotweak, I have been engaged in controlling resonances since the days of marble suspended on slit racketballs and Mode Squad TipToes. Most of these efforts amounted to spring with a resonant frequency somewhere. I have made comparisons of many such devices and chosen the better of the two tested, but always with most modest gain.
At one point I got a Halcyonic active device with no resonant frequency and thought it was quite good but very expensive. I could never afford more than two of these. The first StillPoints Rack with all components on it was far better than two Halcyonics and with the other components on Mana stands.
I think that the Ultras far surpass any prior device I have tried. They greatly reduce vertical vibrations. I also very much like the SR MIGs but have no idea why these cups should be effective. |
Norm
The application of resonance control to the cables was started many years ago. Though these materials added are considered passive by nature they become reactive to the electron flow as well as to floor borne and airborne vibrations. My system is wired in this manner. Thanks Tom |
There are many who have been consistent for the last twenty years in the applications of resonance collection and transfer to ground. The collection of resonance is supported by material selection { not plastic not carbon fiber not delrin not acrylic ] as well as several other key techniques. Your welcome to discover these on your own.
The same rack technology has been applied to the entire signal chain including internal and external cables. The platform is the same technology applied to a single device such as mono amps stereo subs..devices that sound better having their own separate path to ground. Some also need to brush up on their reading and comprehension skills. I have already repeated myself two and half times. |
Theaudiotweak, I have another axiom-you cannot ever have too much isolation, or at least too many Ultra SSs. I have heard the benefits of Ultra SSs on the sliders on my StillPoints Component stands. A substantial improvement. I have heard also the benefits of Ultra SSs as the feet under this stand. Another major improvement. A friend reports the benefit of using an Accapella platform on the Ultra SSs on sliders above and with another layer of Ultra SSs on the platform.
Even with the "new technology" in my StillPoint Rack, I found major improvement with Ultra SSs under components on the acrylic shelves on the Rack. StillPoints even notes that putting the Ultra SSs directly on the rails of the Rack and not using the acrylic shelves is a major improvement.
What impresses me with all of this is how insidious vibration is. No one has mentioned the vibration of cables, but again I know all too well, that there is great benefit for isolating them from vibration. |
Theaudiotweek, only you speak of isolation. I said a rack is a starting point and to hear your system at its best you will need some devices that control and dissipate vibration from the audio unit's (CDP,amp,pre,ect.) outer case in order to hasten the removal of the resonant energy and the vague musical memories you referred to in your thread. I use no mud, rubber or carbon fiber either so I am not sure why you mention that as we were discussing ultras and their ability to act as conduits for vibration with either hardhats against units case or attached as footers. You still do not mention which rack you use, but even in your thread you mention rack AND PLATFORM SYSTEM,not just rack. And that is my point, you need more than just a rack, so your comments about isolation seem misplaced as vibration control is where the subject was. Also your statement to design a pathway for resonant energy to pass to ground is exactly what the ultras do and what I have been saying is needed BESIDES a rack. |
Isolation only exists in the absence of matter. If you design a product based on the false premise that isolation is possible in the dimensions in which we exist then you wasted your time and energy. The much more effective resolution is to design a pathway for resonant energy to pass to ground. Even in archaic and so-called isolation systems resonant energy will eventually find its way out and to ground but very slowly leaving vague musical memories of notes of the past. Much like an inferior capacitor distorts and blurs the sound stage. All of my components and boards, speakers, drivers....they are all assembled as a conduit to ground. No mud or rubber or carbon fiber in between. The racking system has been on the market for years... |
Theaudiotweek, like written earlier,the rack is just a stating point. Without some additional hardware, either couplers or some vibration absorbing devices such as those from stillpoints and others you will not hear your system near it's best. Your vague inference about a rack plus platform only backs up my contention that a rack is just a starting point and to drain vibration from our audio units we need to contact the case of the units with a conduit for dealing with vibrations. |
Tbg,
I read your review, that was part of my encouragement. That and previous experience with standard Stillpoints and the new Stainless Ultras.
The stands will be the new version, so I expect to be suitably impressed.
My listening will probably be interrupted before I come to any conclusion. I jet out for Salon Son and Image (Canada) the day before Press day which is two days prior to regular attendees. |
There has been a racking and platform system whose design from the outset was to deal with self generated resonance within components as well as airborne disturbance within the listening environment. Isolation is only possible in the absence of matter. Tom
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Albert, I had the Stillpoint stands before the new technology and thought they were the most effective isolation I had ever heard. Then after hearing the new Ultra SSs and being shocked at their performance even on the StillPoint Stand, I learned that you could install the new technology on the stand's rails. I did that and again it was a massive improvement, but still the StillPoint Ultras on the acrylic shelves greatly improved the sound. I think you are in for a treat, but the Ultra SSs will give you further improvement. I have said all of this in my StereoTimes reviews. |
New Stillpoints stands on the way. These are the triple shelf model, 28" tall and 26" wide, two complete units.
Hope to have an idea about performance late next week or early the week after, before I fly out to cover Salon Son and Image show in Canada. |
Tbg, I have been back and forth with Paul at Stillpoints and finally have tried every unit with inserts and hardhats down and without inserts and hardhats up. I have to agree with Paul's assessment that most sound better with inserts and hardhats down. The difference was small in some instances and fairly big in others. Thanks for your input. Ebm, whether the Symposium rack is the best is probably system dependent. But one thing I am certain of is the rack is just a starting point and not nearly enough. A rack does little to nothing to deal with vibration from air and, just as important if not more, does not deal with internally generated vibrations which have surprisingly been some of the most important.(amps, pre-amps, CDPs and TTs) |
Had many stands in my opinion this is by far the best sounding and best made my thoughts only. |
Ebm, on what basis do you claim the Symposium best? Perhaps in your personal opinion? |
Best amp stand is Symposium with stealth top had many stands this is by far the best comes with adj copper spikes for leveling and best sound. |
Tbg, i have the ultras pointed up on components now. What i will be testing and was wondering if you had yet tried, is to see if having inserts coming out of units where previous footers were, will allow more vibration to be transferred from components facilitating better sound.PS i was told by Paul of SP when using ultras on speakers to tighten ultras to business card thickness between Wilson and SP body and to leave the hardhat loose, i plan to try same on units, just curious has anyone yet been down that particular road, thanks, marc |
Marc777, it makes no difference up or down. On components I have the heads up; on the speakers down. On the amp and turntable, I mounted the Ultras on the top of SP Component Stands in the up position on the sliders. This gives two levels of their isolation, although that on the Component Stand is old technology. |
Thanks Tbg and Albert for feedback. i agree about rollerblocks, once zeroed in the roller blocks and balls where nice. The stillpoints ultras, though, were superior especially in midrange where the Symposium units had some glare and brightness. Will be selling Symposium stuff. i have ordered some inserts from Paul so i can test the ultras in different locations. Did you end up with the ultra points up or down on units? Have you tried them on a TT and /or speakers? Thanks again, marc |
GPA is coming out with a new series above the Monaco. |
Marc777, basically I now have them everywhere. They are considerably more expensive than the SR MIGs, which are second best IMHO, but so much better than anything else in my experience that I just had to buy them. This includes the Symposium Rollerblocks with the #3 balls. Check out the one review on the Ultra SSs. |
Tbg, saw on a thread you have some SP ultras. I recently put some under Wilson speakers and was double-wowed.I have some more coming in along with two sets of Symposium Rollerblocks with #3 balls. Where did you end up with your ultras placed and a little of why if you don't mind, it will be appreciated? Marc |
Marc777, the same technology that is in the StillPoints Ultra SSs is in the new StillPoints Racks. It is a major improvement akin to that with the Ultras. As much as I like the SR MIGs, the SP Ultras are the best. |
Wanted to thank Roy and Samuel for their posts. I have been looking at various racks and ended up with the TOL StillPoints rack, partially due to their advice and because of previous blessing from using SPs and risers extensively in my syste I also have multiple sets of the Ultra SS footers coming in after hearing what they do under Wilson Sophia III speakers just recently, double wow. It is amazing how much warmth, detail, sweetness, hair-raising emotion,foot-tapping ect. is related to proper isolation. Thanks again Marc. System starts with 3 20A dedicated sockets. one each goes to 2 JL-113 subs. All cable is Shunyata with King Cobra cable feeding V-RayII. Anacondas and Pythons feed rest of system. Audio research LS-27pre and their DS-450 amp. Sources are Esoteric SA-50 SACD player & DAC combo along with their G-03X clock and Clear Audio Emotion turntable & MC cartridge. I have 2 Quantum qx-4s to test also with this system. Speaker cable is Transparent newest TOL and inter-connects are 2 notches from TOL.
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Hornguys,
Yes, I had the GPA with 3/4" acrylic shelves and Apex footers. I understand the Carbon Fiber shelves are a nice upgrade over what I had, but I have not had an opportunity to try that.
When I got the GPA the amps were just sitting on the floor and the improvement was mind blowing. I did not think anything else could make it better and in all fairness, other systems might have produced completely different results. |
Albert,
Forgive me if I missed it, but did you have the Apex footers on the GPA amp stands? |
03-06-10: Tabl10s
Albert,
Physical isolation. Sorry to be so slow responding, I was at Axpona in Florida until late last night. I have only the stock footers under the JL Audio subs. Probably would be a big upgrade with Stillpoints rather then the stock. |
I understood, Grant. I must admit that I have a bias against acrylic but nevertheless think the StillPoints rack is outstanding. I found the OEM feet between my linestage and the acrylic shelf added greatly to the sound. |
Tbg, I don't believe Acrylic by itself is necessarily bad sounding. All materials have an inherent sound when used as a base, whether Corian, marble, granite, wood or MDF. The component base rack was a step up in their technology and was wider than the original. Also, the absence of any shelf material on the bigger rack probably played a role no matter what shelf material might have been there before.
I thought the original Stillpoints rack was the best isolation I had experienced with the original acrylic shelves, so I was taken aback at the improvement gained from switching to the stacked component base rack. As always, context plays the lead role in our preference and experience. Their OEM footers also made a permanent and positive difference under my MAXX 3's.
As with anything its best to try and compare when possible.
Grant
Shunyata Research
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Albert,
Physical isolation. |
If you have acrylic shelves, but need an improvement, putting myrtle wood blocks under my preamp and phono and the shelf really improves the sound a lot. I haven't tried this with amps (weight?), but they are inexpensive. |
Thank all of you for your efforts to further the accuracy of your systems. Music is a passion. It is a quest that will drive us insane, while necessary for our sanity. I would hope in the long run it brings us all great pleasure.
Your observations do corresponded to our design in the technology. We are quite different from all the dampening products on the market. Our products can move and release micro motion without absorption. All the products work in both directions, upward and downward independently. The acrylic we use was the item we found with the least signature for a reasonable price. There are some items in some systems that require a shelf. For those who can afford the extra expense ( $1100/ shelf for a 26 wide rack) our component stands added to a rack . The skeletal rack is our finest example of what we can accomplish in terms of music.
The newest of our designs is the stacking component stands rack or SCS. This was designed with a number of goals to accomplish.
#1 To bring the strength of our technology to a lower price range.
#2 Give customers a alternative performance wise, in cabinets and closets
#3 Increase the music per $ ratio
This rack is different from the ESS in total isolation per shelf. In our top of the line ESS rack. You get 64 planes of isolation per shelf. In the SCS you will get 16 to the bottom component (same as a component stands ) the next shelf will have the benefit of the 1st shelf technology so it will see 32 planes . The 3rd shelf will have 48 planes. This means the top shelf will always have the most isolation.
This modular buildable shelf structure is capable of being installed in the cabinet next to the fireplace. It will give the audiophile his desire for ultimate reproduction. It will also make the marital partner very happy still being out of sight. With some of the biggest book shelf speakers like the Harbeth and Escalante you can build you mono blocks into the bottom of a stacking rack and the speakers over the top of the amps.
We are always working on new ways to implement our technology. There will be a lot more coming from Stillpoints in audio and other arenas. |
Samuel, so the acrylic shelves do really hurt the sound. I know that StillPoints is going to have an alternative shelf at some point. All that could be done now is to add component stands to the top layer of the rack. Doing so on the lower shelves would make them unusable.
Thanks for the report. |
I did complete direct comparison between the original Stillpoints rack and the new component stand rack. The difference between the new one one and the original Stillpoints rack with the Acrylic shelves was profound. Everything related to sound became more focussed, more pitch articulate and it seemed as if there was a noticeable drop in perceived noise as I could clearly discern detail I had been missing on familiar recordings. It is probably the most significant change I have heard in my system since completing the room and electronics.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata
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Albert, at CES, or really THE Show, StillPoints showed their component stands combined with vertical pillars between them. This allows making a stand with many different heights, widths, and depths. You could fit one into your frame.
I am told that such a rack is the equal of the StillPoints rack. I have yet to compare one with my rack. I will soon have the capability to do so, but the component stand rack is to allow me to isolate all the components that I use, not just that fit on my rack. One real benefit of the component stand rack is not having the acrylic shelves. |
Tabl10s, Don't know about the new rack, but probably not.
My equipment is built into the frame and foundation of the house, except for the two outboard custom stands for turntable and tape.
When you ask are the subs isolated, do you mean electrically, mechanically or ? |
Albert,
Will you try the new version of the Stillpoints rack? Are the subs isolated? |
Thanks!
While I could have most likely surmised your response simply based upon the materials used in the differing support systems, it was good to have first-hand validation. Enjoy!
-Richard |
Albert,
Could you expand further on your personal impressions of each stand's relative strengths and weaknesses in the context of your system, and why, ultimately, you opted for the Stillpoints vs. the GPA? The Grand Prix has very bold bass but it's a bit flabby, it presents music in a soft and sweet manner reminiscent of Audioquest Sorbothane footers. All notes are a bit fatter especially the mid bass. Sound seems slowed down a tiny bit. The Stillpoints bass is so tight, at first it seems something is missing. You may have to retune the system by moving speakers, swapping tubes or whatever tweak to put tonal balance back where bass is in balance again. Ultimately the Stillpoints are cleaner, faster, higher resolution with better sense of each instrument placement and much better frequency extremes. They are also less money, take up less space and I prefer their appearance. Remember I was experimenting to find the best resolution for my system to balance the new twin JL Audio Fathom F-212 subs. Tight bass for the main speaker was a huge improvement and allowed better integration with the subs. Hope that helps. |
I have not compared the StillPoints rack with the GPA but with the Halcyonics. Actually, that is not really correct. I was able to put everything on StillPoints and only three components (amp, tt, and digital) on Halcyonics units. Everything on StillPoints greatly outperforms three pieces on Halcyonics. The sense of involvement in the music and lead edge were much improved. I do wonder what everything on Halcyonics would sound like but prices on Halcyonics have sored and they take up too much room.
There have been complaints about the acrylic shelves. I have a set of what StillPoints calls their OEM feet between my linestage and an acrylic shelf and this was a major improvement in soundstage precision and dynamics. |
Albert,
Could you expand further on your personal impressions of each stand's relative strengths and weaknesses in the context of your system, and why, ultimately, you opted for the Stillpoints vs. the GPA?
I ask not to make you write a short treatise, but because both products make promises about vibration control, are similar in price, yet have radically different approaches to how they address the problem. Thanks,
-Richard |
I've converted to Stillpoints for my amp stands and the GPA are sold. Both are superb products and this test could have been reversed in another room or with another amp or even due to personal taste.
The one thing that is not a variable, component stands are a big influence on sound, especially with big tube amps subject to vibration and impact near large speakers. |
I wonder what would happen if an F-1 was placed atop the SP? |
Saturday I mounted the (4) Stillpoints stands to the VTL amps and gained several square feet of floor space. This is exactly what I needed to accommodate the JL Audio subs.
Sound difference between it and GPA could not be more different, I'm sorting out my feeling about this more tomorrow when a friend visits and I listen with more kinds of music. |
Cool. Have you received the Stillpoints yet? |
Have you changed the pads on the Monaco? Yes. I mentioned that fact in my post 2-17-10. I have new pads, which have been calculated for exact weight load by Alvin at Grand Prix. |
Have you changed the pads on the Monaco? |
What is Stillpoints purchase/return policy...do you know? Up to the dealer as far as I know. |
Albert,
What is Stillpoints purchase/return policy...do you know?
Someone, some magazine that is not a subject of advertisers will... simply needs to order up a sample of all the big boys and not so big and just listen. I would lend my ear to such a collective shootout and bring along a design that neither proclaims to isolate, constrain or damp. Descriptive words that should not be used in the conductance of music production or of its reproduction.
Tom |
