Gmorris, please read my initial statement: the effective mass is not DETERMINED by the distance of the counterweight from the pivot.
There are a lot of tonearms - past and present - which do feature different weight counterweights to match different weight cartridges/headshells.
This is done to situate the counterweight (technically preferable (if not sonically in the ears of some audiophiles.....) as close as possible to the pivot.
So the distance is of course ONE factor/parameter of the effective mass, but it ALONE does not determine the effective mass of a tonearm.
A tonearm in static vice versa dynamic mode has different effective mass (and here in this model the distance of the counterweight is usually indeed the ONLY variable parameter in comparism, as the other parameters are fixed).
If an audiophile does only use or look at a tonearm with one fixed mass counterweight only (Graham....) he may overlook that there are other options (Triplanar...). |
On the subject of the Phantom II and its virtues...I was wondering if anyone have experience with the Phantom II on an Avid Acutus Reference. After reading that Conrad Mas, the designer and builder of the Avid was not fond of and was not recommending the use of a unipivot arm for his TT, I felt conflicted about my decision to purchase the table. Part of the upgrade path/plan I have is to run a Graham arm, one because I like the arm and two because one can set up multiple arm/cartridges, of course (mainly mono and stereo). It turns out I wrote Mr. Mas recently and he felt that after an acquaintance of his had run the Phantom with its magnetic stabilization in the lateral plain he was not willing to count all unipivot designs out of the running. So I'm looking for further experiences, if there are any out there. Opinions would be appreciated too.
Happy Listening! |
Personally I always have a problem, when there is a discussion about a Tonearm which has "a or no synergy" with a turntable. What does it mean?
A Turntable which has lots of internal vibrations can't be used with a clever made Tonearm, which has none and it is obvious after a short time, that the TT is the problem? Or a Tonearm which has average bearings mounted on a clever made Turntable which can show what is on it?
The Phantom Arm is probably the best Arm made today, it works with a lot of cartridges on a very good level, not with everything, but most. Clever design and excellent from quality.
Turntable Design can have a lot of differences (Material mix, suspension, Platter quality ....), but Designers are Humans like you and me and they have their favorites, too. When someone thinks, this Arm is the best for his turntable, why not..Lots of people are happy with units I would never touch...try it and learn :-) |
Syntax, if you happen to be commenting on my previous post to your thread, I would like to add a little insight.
Likes or dislikes play into it I'm sure. I admire the Swiss watch like fit and finish of the entire Graham line, it is truly very alluring. It is also truly rare, even amongst a history of many great tonearms and tonearm designer/manufacturers. I also understand and appreciate the fact that Bob Graham makes a tonearm that has functional precision that leaves most others in the dust, IMHO. My concern and my understanding of Conrad Mas's concern with unipivot arms on his table is that his clever suspension is also essentially, unipivot, which together create some basic engineering challenges, and very possibly a poor result in combination with a basic unipivot tonearm. It is an issue of basic mechanical compatibility not synergy to the subjective listener. Personally, my experience as an industrial designer and analogue Hifi enthusiast tells me that Mr. Mas also has a strong command and insight on turntable/tonearm physics.
In the words of Bob Graham:"Once Neutral Balance is chosen for use in a unipivot tonearm, one must remember that both the vertical and lateral planes will be affected the same way; without proper lateral stability, such a design would not have consistent, proper vertical alignment, and the pivot would tend to flop over to one side or another (usually in the direction of the weighted cartridge offset angle mounting). Obviously this condition must be avoided. The answer to this lies at the very heart of the Phantom's design." In brief, the Magneglide system which completely changes the paradigm of how a unipivot arms responds. This could very well be the key for my success with the Avid and on a grander scale be beneficial to almost any TT set up.
A thought about vibrations, the very nature of all record players works on physical vibration, obviously from the source (Lp). It would be naive to believe or suggest that turntables themselves or tonearms for that matter, do not have inherent vibrations both from the source and from the loud speakers or foot falls or a truck driving down the street near by. The object is what you do with them. Material dampening alone is a cave mans analogy to solving this tricky puzzle. Vibration management on the other hand is the ability to control where and when particular menacing frequencies resolve and the properly dissipation of them in areas that don't adversely effect the music. It is a science that is still being pioneered by those with outstanding insight and technical skills. It's obvious that Mr. Graham is unique in that he has shown a strong command of these skills and an amazing standard for both taste and quality.
Lastly, my inquiry was that of supporting observation and opinion on the given subject... I felt this might be a pretty good forum for some help from those intimately familiar with this tonearm in many different applications. What it was not was an attempt to divert the main discussion tangentially. Just looking for a little help.
Happy (analogue) Listening! |
>>10-21-09: Syntax
The Phantom Arm is probably the best Arm made today<<
There is, of course, no best of any component and tonearms are no exception.
I have my favorites as well but hyperbole such as this should simply be ignored. |
|
>>10-21-09: R_f_sayles
.....My concern and my understanding of Conrad Mas's concern with unipivot arms on his table is that his clever suspension is also essentially, unipivot, which together create some basic engineering challenges, and very possibly a poor result in combination with a basic unipivot tonearm......<<
Does Mas consider his suspension unipivot?
I thought it was fairly conventional 3 point spring setup with lateral stabilising rubber bands. Not sure what makes this suspension 'unipivot' - or for that matter incompatible with a unipivot tonearm.
In any case if Mas considers unipivots don't work (for whatever reason), why not just go with one of the other excellent arms available - eg Triplanar or Kuzma 4point?
I'm a Phantom owner but I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with either those other 2 arms. |
Well, when I would be a Dealer I would write the same.
And when I would be a customer, who has money but no idea, I would agree.
Most Audiophiles WANT to spend money, they don't want to KNOW what the unit really does. They "like" it or not. Or. they read something in a magazine and save a few lines in their memory and after a while it is transformed to "Knowledge".
But to be fair, only new products makes the money go round. And when something is really better (or clever made) than others, and cheaper, and limited...then it can be dangerous. The goal is the "Balance".
It is the way it is. |
And when I would be a customer, who has money but no idea, I would agree. I think a read of Syntax's System would reveal the veracity of this statement? But to be fair, only new products makes the money go round. Are we not talking about the NEW Phantom compared the OLD Phantom? Methinks his confusion overwhelms him? |
It appears that we have a "clever" audiophile in our midst. You are so transcendent in your thought...
Oh sage please,through a few pearls of wisdom to the swine that surround you, i want to "KNOW" the secrets that i have been denying for so long as i through my fortunes to the wind...Just kidding, of course!
So many words, but nothing is said,
tell us, what makes your words any more credible, or better yet, what makes your judgement/knowledge any more credible than "most audiophiles" or "dealers" that you condescend to.
So far it has remained unseen.
One who chooses to confront his fellow music lover hiding behind oblique comments and explaining them all as the unwashed masses, rarely does any good except to feed his own ego. We have a word for that on these threads, it's called a troll.
i prefer the honesty of sharing and helping my Hifi friends, and on occasion showing my ignorance.
Happy Listening! Come in here dear boy, have a cigar, your going to go far...
|
What make Syntax' comments more worthwhile and valuable than most (.... not all...) others?
First he has absolutely no financial interests in promoting either component and has tried most in discussion here in his home system.
Furthermore - as I do know him quite well and will visit him again tomorrow - he tries to make as little compromise as possible and does judge any component (and through his hands and system went a hell of a lot of components with really serious price tags the past years...) by its performance only and not by hype, fellowship or price tag.
Honestly - this alone is rarely seen.
Add to this an open mind which includes and shows some affection for logical chains, conclusions and enough stamina to make a stand against any crowd.
On the negative side he has quite a vein for teasing lesser minds and making harsh statements.
And he has some friends around which are even worse .......... one being me.
But then - no one of us is really perfect..........
BTW - Syntax is certainly no Troll. I have seen 2 Trolls in 1986 in the very northern part of Finlandia (close to Kilpisjärvi - permafrost area). They do behave different....
Maybe it would be a bit smarter to take some of Syntax's comments more serious and not seeing an instant insult in any of his posts.
He is much more serious than most of you imagine. |
In general (.... I like this phrase...) a good TT should indeed be a good TT independent of the particular tonearm mounted.
In other words - the TT has to spin the record and should provide a stable base for the tonearm to be mounted.
If a TT designer chooses to built his entire design on a theoretical base which sees from the start problems with certain tonearm bearings, it is of course his choice.
I for one believe in designs, which are independent in their display of quality from certain design features of associated components which - first in line - do not have anything to do with the pure physical function of the TT itself.
There are similar demands in many respects to a high-class TT and the base of an electron microscope - both do deal with an isolation from outside vibration and both do need to supply most stable and continuos foundation for the performance of components mounted on them (cart/tonearm on one and electron-microscope on the other).
Yes, I know - the base of the microscope doesn't revolve with 33 1/3 rpm.....
Anyway - I guess this is a common place and something everyone (.... even if a general agreement might well be impossible in Audio society ...) can agree upon.
A TT trying to meet the pure mechanical demands resulting from the real world requirements to give the stylus the chance to extract each and every detail from the groove will always have some certain features.
It will be immensely heavy, suspended on below 1 hz frequency, sport a platter with relatively high mass (30 lbs ++) and thus can't come cheap.
Please note that I have not mentioned any bearing type or drive to be preferred.
These are pure mechanical requirements which do result direct out of the physical mass and the special behavior of the stylus and the record.
Back to the initial quest.
The Graham Phantom II is an extremely well designed tonearm.
While I am certainly not an admirer of unipivot tonearms, I have high regards for the Graham Phantom II.
An excellent basic design which features now many clever details which do further add to the excellent sonic performance and does so with a wide bandwidth of cartridges.
If I would today look for a new tonearm it would be one of my prime choices. |
Dear Halcro, no.... a look in Syntax's line-up of past and present components does not tell the story. And it does not tell much about the veracity of his statements either.
He has a good hand in selling used components for insane prices and has an even better hand in getting to-die-for prices on very new units.
But - yes, he always wants to testify the toys in his own settings.
Thus he is giving little to nothing on 2nd hand experiences spread around widely.
He not even eats my advises and comments right away...... at least not always.
BTW - how's spring downunder ? We have a lousy autumn right now - cold, rainy, depressive - but great to switch on the music system ! |
We should try to take it not too serious. I dreamed about it, because I am sensitive and can't stand it when you don't love me anymore.I had a Dream,
there is Restaurant at the end of the universe.
But honestly, it is not a Restaurant, more a very unfriendly low pub, where only
fat, dark, bad smelling pieces of meat are served, with a glibber, awful looking sauce.
That's it. Nothing else. Always the same. Every Day.
And for drinking only warm Cherry Coke is available.
In this Restaurant at the end of the Universe all High Enders are taken prisoner, who
had a lot of sins in their regular life.
You will meet people, who rated the power of their amps once of more often in Horsepower, those who made a lot of money with cable- or
Rackvoodoo , those who hyped units which create Ear cancer when listening too long.
Or those who sold their inferior cheap made speakers to those unlucky enthusiasts who believed in reviews.
Btw. in that Restaurant you will find one or the other High End Journalist, too.
In this Restaurant you will hear day in, day out Chris de Burgh only, from Mini-Disc via a continuous
clipping Pre-/Amp combination linked to 6 way speakers with defect midrange chassis.
I had that dream last night and I have absolutely no idea what was real in that dream.
But I liked it very much. |
I wonder who the Bouncer is at that place... |
Dear Daniel,
Bill (Audiofeil) replied to a statement made by Syntax with the following quote :-
"There is, of course, no best of any component and tonearms are no exception.
I have my favorites as well but hyperbole such as this should simply be ignored."
Bill has been a valued and witty contributor to these pages for many years and has openly added the caveat of his 'dealership' to any controversial topics.
Nevertheless I find his postings to usually be valuable, humourous, poignant and occasionally barbed (where warranted).
To be dismissed by Syntax because of his dealership status displays an arrogance and elitism which is unfortunately symptomatic of his postings in general.
I find the contributions of some Dealers, Manufacturers and Critics to be amongst the most valuable in these Forums as they give a viewpoint which we, the Consumers, simply do not have. Most of them also have a great deal more varied experiences of listening and equipment choices than the majority of us 'Punters'.
However the most salient point in all this is simply, as Bill points out, we all have our own opinions.
Opinions are not 'facts' and no amount of elitist postulation will make them so.
Syntax has been regaling this Forum for weeks about his adulation of the Graham Phantom arm and his sycophantic (almost amorous) language towards Bob Graham has become tiresome.
We get it. He loves the arm. Enough said.
Bill loves other arms and so do I but we don't attack others who might disagree with or question us?
Syntax is always quick to take offense and insult others with his snide and often obscure indirect remarks which may be a result of inappropriate translation from his mother tongue but he is a big boy Daniel and can defend himself adequately.
Your continual and swift rushing to defend and 'explain' his 'deep seriousness, humour and value' on almost every occasion in these Forums is doing more harm than good.
It resembles a protective mother duck thrusting herself forward before any harm may befall her beloved chicks?
Now for the important stuff........the sun is out in beautiful Sydney. I've just returned from a week in New York where I heard the Magico M5s driven by Soulution Pre and Power combination at Sound by Singer and I have new vinyl to listen to. Things are good.
I hope your winter is not such a bad one?
Regards
Henry |
To be dismissed by Syntax because of his dealership status ... I am not a dealer. I am a regular customer who bought everything from Dealer(s) at the price they wanted to have. I have no contact or support to any manufacturer. I am pretty sure, they don't know me at all. |
Some information from my experience with Graham Arms.
One or the other may think, I want to hype it, or trying to support the manufacturer...that#s not true. I don't care about that. I am interested in Performance only.
All started with a Graham 20. de Luxe, I guess it was 2002 (or so), at that time it was mounted on a Basis Debut with vacuum and I bought multiple Armboards for other arms to compare.
At that time I listened to SME V, Schroeder Reference, Triplanars and a few more I forgot
Then the upgrade to 2.2 was made, I got it and my thought was, that Graham made another step ahead.
Other Arms didn't move on, only cosmetically "improvements" (cable, head-shell) which had no improvement in Performance.
I sold it, when the Phantom was available and it was obvious, that Graham was able to re-think his own - successful - design. That Arm was not only a step forward, it was a jump.
Very impressive.
At that time I got other Arms (DaVinci, Kuzma, FR's ...), bought another Graham Armwand to compare cartridges etc.
Then I sold that Phantom, because I thought I didn't need it. After a few months I regret and bought a new one again. This one stayed at my home until last year.
One of my friends did visit me and asked for it and I did let it go. After 8 years with various Graham Arms my System was running with other Designs.
After some months I was at a Linn LP12 Demonstration, the new LP12 with Keel and Ekos SE were introduced. Never really a Fan from either I did listen to a comparison between the latest Ekos and Ekos SE and I heard remarkable differences in their Frequency range and in reproducing the tone.
SE Arm has Titan parts, I saved that experience in my memory and went home.
Months later I heard from the Phantom II with Titan Armwand, a red lamp started to glow and my interest in that Arm started to grow.
And I asked here at Audiogon about news (see headline) and then I got one (and compared again).
The result is written.
Some want to beat me because I write something they don't want to know. Sorry, but when it is allowed to hype something which is nice but nothing special, it is not allowed to write about that???
"Opinions" are fine when you want to discuss about something you don't know, but knowledge/experience is helpful to push the curtain.
At least for me. |
Dear Halcro: I agree with you and Bill.
I can't understand why Dietrich ( this is his real name not Daniel. Well I don't know if Dietrich means Daniel in German language. ) insist to post everywhere " behind "/supporting in so " lovely " way to Syntax when Syntax is not asking for ( I hope ), this guy ( Thomas ) IMHO does not needs " wings to fly ".
Anyway in an open forum this and other kind of behavior is part of the forum and we have to admit this fact like it or not.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Syntax, I would not have a problem with you or anyone else for that matter giving their opinion or not about a concept, theory, product, what have you, but that's just it, your delivery shows extreme arrogance, a personal attack and is socially repugnant and it's evident that it's not just my misunderstanding. You have a personal track record of this in your short history here on AudioGon and this is no place for it. When you say "Some want to beat me because I write something they don't want to know." Beat you up? Or maybe respond is more like it. How dare you to presume that you have any idea what I or anyone else here knows, much less to condescend that we don't want to know your presumed "truths". Give us a break! Please think about showing your fellow audiophile a little respect. If you are impassioned and care to press a point intellectually, great, then do so but, if you're incapable of expressing your opinion without this unbecoming behavior toward others than, get lost. And as for your friends coming to rescue your credibility, it's lame and misdirected and should not be necessary as long as you are acting as a gentleman. Your passion and pursuit in this hobby is no excuse to mistreat people. Please understand I am not playing mind games with you, or personally attacking you, and I mean no offense in your direction, but try to show a little social grace, will you?! Please think about it. And honestly, your experience/knowledge will be well received as is many others on this site.
Happy Listening! |
... that's just it, your delivery shows extreme arrogance, a personal attack and is socially Not true. |
Dear Syntax: That's the way people see you.
Btw, I wonder why you changed your Agon moniker because when you was Thomasheisig and was " alone " you was ( with all respect ) a lot "better" than today.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Raul, me being a late descendant from a very old family tree - its roots going back to the times when Iberia was almost completely occupied by the Maurin and well before the first european (- aside from Leif Erikson... - ) sat his foot on america soil, - I happen to have a total of 4 names given to me at my birth.
Dietrich as well as Daniel are two of the 4.
So the german jungle drums did reach middle america ...... documenting that I have stepped on many toes.
In any case - Dietrich has nothing to do with Daniel, but the meaning of this old northern german name simply is leader or chieftain or king.
Make your selection.
Regards and enjoy the music..........,
D. |
Well, I guess it will keep on going that way. Syntax will speak his mind and take a clear position and some others will not like that.
Fine.
As in old german saying: "viel Feind - viel Ehr".
Or in english: "your honor is in direct relation to the number of your enemies".
Guess we all can live with that situation
Can't we.
Cheers,
D. D. H. K. |
Good. So Daniel will be fine with me.
Thank you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Sheesh,things haven't changed much since I've been out-:) |
R F Sayles
Avid make a specific armboard for the Naim ARO unipivot tonearm, so your comments about Mass not liking unipivots makes no sense.
He clearly does not like the Ghraham on his table. There could be two trains of thought about this.
- first is that Avid are UK company, so a lot easier and cheaper to use the excellent sounding UK made Naim ARO or SME V, whereas the Graham as it is imported would be quite a bit more money and supply not known.
- 2nd - The Avid is supposed to be a lively(bright in some language) sounding turntable and the Graham arms are not known for their warmth - so having the combo might indeed produce a lean not very enjoybale sound.
The Naim ARO and SME V are not so unforgiving.
As has been mentioned, there is no best of anything.
thoughts? |
|
Downunder, please read March 5th, 2007- by Wayne Garcia, The Absolute Sound review or maybe you have. I too questioned Conrad Mas about this very thing and like I said previously, he acknowledged that the Magneglide system seemed to play well on the table. The table is bought without an arm, so I would guess it has little bearing on what Mr. Mas prefers. Like you say, if it's not British there is the import issue. I do find the Avid to be lively, far from bright though and it also smokes my old loaded Lp12 (less a Keel) dynamically and the bottom end is better detailed through my OTL MA-1 Silvers. Presently I have a new SME V with a silver litz wire made and fitted ti the arm by Kondo-san. The SME is nice but a shade dark and I feel it doesn't fully reveal the Scan-Tech cartridge I'm currently running. The SME has a reputation that hasn't thoroughly left me impressed at this point. Having much history (7 years?) with a 2.2 and Lyra Helikon combo on a home engineered, rigid/mass loaded, belt drive table, I feel the Phantom II would be the next step for me. Funny thing, the Naim Aro on a full blown Lp12, for me left the impression that the Aro was more Like the 2.2 or even a 1.5 than a SME, Just my opinion. In the end, you may well be spot on yet, I think the promise of it working and interchangeable wands and all, is so tempting ...and if not, I will find a table to compliment the new arm.
Happy Listening! |
Well,I owned(loved and miss dearly)a 2.0 and 2.2.
I also had the Phantom I and II,but for too short a time.
In any event these are all superb arms,and imo the Phantom is better than the "final" 2.2,but not as much as you'd think.
Just one man's opinion-:) |
Dear Downunder, there is much truth in your comment......... much more thruth than most want to hear or know.
BTW - nice set-up.
Never forget who was and is the one, real and only King ! |
Appreciable sonic difference between the final design of the Graham 2.2 , original Phantom and the Phantom II would hinge on the ability of the turntable itself to reveal these differences, be it small or large.
Including the ability of associated equiptment and above all ones own experience in this hobby....
I for one do have high regard for Syntax's approach to a system including his opinion here of the Phantom arms.
Overall the components that he bought, set up in his system, evaluated, dismissed, then list on his page speaks volumes to his approach. |
Btw,Stilty(and I'm "not" rying to be contrary)....
I "did" set up all of those arms,on multiple times,in multiple systems.All pretty much sota set ups...so...
Yes,there is an increase in performance(between the arms)as one moves up the table of model designations,and time periods of design...but...
these improvements are "not nearly as large"(though obviously audible) as we like to make them seem.That is simply my own observation about things audio.
You can change out a tube or almost anyother component or chachka,and get a similar result.
It is fairly common with many components,not specific to these great(and they are that good) arms.I LOVE the Graham stuff,btw.
Anyway,I think there is a certain "something" about just listening to,and enjoying music that counters the "need" to have to get that "last degree" of "whatever".One reason why highe end audio is on a downward spiral,sadly.Not enough new blood,who are willing to spend the cashola.
I TOTALLY understand your "correct" asessment of these arms' differences,but I'd say in the long run it does not really matter,once a certain level of sonic bliss is had.
In the boutique acoustic guitar world,each and every instrument is very different from oneanother,and each is voiced differently.
Different wood combinations,different scale lengths etc,so there is NO "one" standard of accuracy.
Yet,each player understands this,and lauds the differences.Even respects a different sonic vibe,from whatever he,himself, is playing.
So,I say we are knocking ourselves out,trying to shoot for the last vestige of accuracy.It does not exist!
Each component in the chain(so long as they "do" meet a good standard)will change the total vibe of the syatem,and it's up to the owner to voice it.Then stay off websites like this(habit forming)and have a nice glass of wine,while enjoying your record collection -:)
Hmm,looks like I have not changed mush either!Another one of my long winded rants.... -:)
Good luck |
R F Sayles,
I guess the issue here goes back to synergy and especially between turntables & tonearms.
I like my Phantom tonearm, however I am not sure if I would like it as much on a leaner sounding table compared to what I have now. Personally I am not 100% sure if I would like the Phantom II on my table with the majority of music I prefer to listen to.
Mass/Avid are just taking that synergy point and recommending their tables go with a more robust sounding tonearm like the SME V.
That is one reason why intergrated table/tonearm by the same manufacturer makes a lot of sense - except in the true equipment audiophile that is in a lot of us.
As always one man's lean/bright is another's neutral/transparent and one man's warmth and tone is another's turgid bloat and lack of transparency.
I can find this going from record to record - which is why a 2nd table or tonearm combo is a good idea to better match the recording sometimes. Cartridges have the same choices.
All the gear we have is comfortable ahead of the majority. |
I appreciate you sharing comments and experience in this matter. The Graham Phantom II is a work of art both mechanically and sonically, to that I feel we all would agree. I would also acknowledge that synergy is paramount, regardless of anything else. And in the end... when all the talk settles, I may have no other choice than to try, as was suggested, for my self and see. Going with the Kondo silver wire in my SME V as opposed to the stock VDH braid was intended to move away from some of the alleged darkness of this arm. I am surprised that to my ear, this wire and the character of my Aesthetix front end and phono has not added disproportionately to the leanness of which you speak. Using my listening experiences from our local audio club juxtaposed with live acoustic concert experiences, the system appears to be markedly balanced IMHO. Though I do fully concede to a penchant for long lean women, wonder if there's any connection!?
Happy Listening! |
Hi,
following this thread with its Brucknerian fortissimos and ~pianissimos, I find it interesting to read about the "darkness" of the SME V arm --- once again.
It seems to underscore the point made by Downunder about 'arm / table synergies.
Using a SME V on my SME 10 'table, leaves not the smallest of notions about darkness! --- so that 'table may just be a 'lean' lady? (It looks the part, yes)
In turn it would suggest that a Phantom be too 'light and breathy' on an SME 10 (similarly open in plinth design to the AVID)?
However, Graham has a nice and ready fit for those SME arm board connections. Perhaps an indication that there is a demand for the more beefy SME 20 and 30 models?
Greetings,
Axel |
Axel, Your point is well taken, the lady may be teaching me something by contrast, if I understand you correctly. Synergy is a demanding mistress my friend! And this is why we need an open forum like AudioGon. There is no way I (we) could get this kind of sharing of ideas and viewpoints in our limited circles. I have the good fortune of being part of a one hundred, fifty plus membership in a local audiophile group called SMAC Southeastern Michigan Audio Club and many of our members are part of the Audio Karma Festival each year in our area and yet, the input by this thread has given me new insight about my SME V and the Phantom II from all of your observations.
Happy Listening! |
Dear Axel, I am very familiar with the SME V since its introduction more than a quarter of a century ago.
The SME V is not dark.
It is something else. I would rather describe its sonic signature as slightly forward upper bass (due to a resonance in its magnesium armpipe I suppose...).
The sonic side-effect is, that in all set-ups I have heard this tonearm and with all cartridges the sonic performance gives the impression, that the ceiling of the room seems to hand low.......
This may be named "dark" in some ears, but I would rather describe its sonic signature as mentioned. |
Agree with DT, but the SME V can be tuned:
Silver cable inside (Silver carries 6% more information than everything else, Graham uses Silver cables for years btw.)
When you can do some work at the Base, the V reacts quite sensitive to it.
Bottom: lead-bloc (or similar)
Middle: Acrylic (just to try)
Top: SME Base
Don't work at the screws or the bridge... |
Most SME V I know do already have v.d.Hul silver wiring inside. The top frequencies are more detailed and the sound gets a bit more open.
Blue Tec on the armpipe - especially at the pipe's widening - is another great tweak.
But the ceiling remains hanging too low....... no matter what you do. |
Guys
yes, I'll go along with that 'signature' bit, as I'm sure you both had your fair amount of comparisons.
Here my point:
MOST of the latter day 'high-end' speakers tend, at least slightly, towards the lean side of things --- and so do my Burmester 961. (AMT tweeter, 5 1/4" carbon mids, 8" woofers, with 4 order acoustic XO).
Now, this 'lean side' of neutral also (always) means a lack of upper bass (a design challenge), and this is where plenty of musicality / music gets lost.
The SME V arm in a lean-ish rig, AND a slim-ish 'table is where synergy becomes yet an even more significant item.
Axel |
Well Axel, from my point of view most (really most .....) current and past day speakers in home audio systems have upper bass only...... hardly any do have any neutral and flat bass worth mention below 60 hz ( I mean free of inverse phase support via bass reflex... - the audio reviews and printed frequency sweeps may tell you otherwise, - but go and have the actual frequency response measured in your room: you will be shocked what really gets delivered).
So, while I won't put your comment in question, that indeed there might be some synergy effects ( in maths "-" x "-" gives "+".......) with some modern day speakers (especially german speakers......), the signature of the SME V still is not dark - its rather a kind of "muted" headroom.
But then this is the Graham Phantom vs. Phantom II thread, not the "does the SME V have a sonic signature" - thread...... |
D.
y.s.: >>> But the ceiling remains hanging too low....... no matter what you do. <<<
Actually an interesting acoustic take allocating such to a TONEARM...
It is for most acousticians a matter of room acoustics rather, which produces a 'low ceiling'
Where would be the 'ceiling' with a Phantom ! or II then?
Also a CD player wound suffer the same 'low ceiling' problem, since my V arm does not create any less 'ceiling height' then my ML390S...
I have heard the VPI 9" arm and it has nowhere near the 'body' and bass slam that can be had from a V, and as to 'ceiling height', you may have a point. This unipivot has something floating and angelic to it --- bass not being its notable characteristic.
Leaving the question of 'bass slam' for a Phantom I or II.
Also we are not in tune it seems with 'upper bass' (call it lower mid range?): ~ 300 - 150 Hz.
Then we have mid bass ~ 150 - 40 Hz, followed by lower bass going 40 - below ~ 20 Hz.
Axel |
Axel, well - with the Phantom II the ceiling is about 1/3 higher than with the SME V.
With the Phantom II bass transients have equal slam, but more speed and edge sharpness.
But then the SME V must by todays standards be judged and "filed" as an "oldskool" tonearm, as it origins from the same year/period as the FR-66fx and 64fx among others (..... somehow ironic - isn't it...).
The fact that it is still available new today does not deny that.
I for one would "divide" the bass register as follows (after all chambertone a - the tuning frequency of an orchestra - is today around 440 hz) :
* 220-100 - upper bass
* 100-60 - mid bass
* 60 and lower - lower bass
...... see why I meant that hardly and high-end speakers do have real low bass performance in the listening room.
If you extend "mid bass" to 40 Hz, then most high-end speakers won't even have flat mid-bass response either. |
Hi D.
OK, now I do think we are on the same page as far as bass register goes.
Here my point I was trying to make, and you confirmed some of this with your in-room measurement mentioning.
Upper bass LOOKS A-OK on practically most frequency graphs --- BUT put such speaker in a room and you will find 9/10 it is treble tilted, the current high end pursuit in order to achiefe 'air' and resolution. It was this that I tried to get across.
Upper bass (for me) is well expressed by the German (Grundton) and if that is leaned out, for what ever the reason, the music / musicality suffers greatly.
So, given that most current ~10k - >15k Euro ~ 20k and > $ speakers have this kind of 'balance', a slightly 'richer' arm is not the worst thing for synergy.
Also, often because of the room boost, there is a pick-up around 40Hz BUT it does not really make up for a lean upper base, and most often due to floor bounce related cancellations, - the design challenge I eluded to.
Greetings,
Axel |
In the end guys, is it worth springing for a new Phantom II if a used Phantom I can be had for $2500 only or less ? |
Dear Nolitan, according to Syntax's findings - which I had the pleasure to confirm for myself last saturday at his place - a firm and solid YES.
The Phantom II does build on the MKI's virtues and goes considerably further.
Its worth the extra price.
Consider it one of the handful of TOP-flight tonearms today. Among this very tiny group, it is the least expensive, most easy to adjust to 99% and most versatile.
One can hardly ask for more.
It is an evolved design which now looks back on 20 years on the market and has seen constant positive development while maintaing its basic design and outlook.
In the far future - when we are all old, half deaf and white haired we will look back and consider the Phantom II one of the very few great classics which did stand the test of time with bravura.
If I were looking for a pivot tonearm today - this would be the one I'd go for. |
Hi Dertonarm,
Thanks for the feedback, can the Phantom be upgraded to the Version II by sending it back to the factory ?
Regards
Noli |
Nolitan,
Yes it can for under $500.00. The internal wire is swapped out and magnaglide feature also the micropoise is installed.
Contact Graham Engineering to arrange upgrades. |
Only if the money is "not" a big dael,IMO! |
