Grado Stylus Upgrade

XTZ stylus alone cost $450+ and it was top of the line stylus, you can try 8MZ for $150 or much better stylus for more. It worth it as the stylus is the most expensive part of the cartridge. 

Not exactly 100% relevant to your situation but I did replace the stock stylus on a Grado Black with an 8MZ. It was an improvement. At the time, for unknown reasons, the 8MZ was priced lower than a Grado Gold replacement stylus. I believe prices of 8MZ and Gold replacement styli are now the same.  Some claim the 8MZ is better than the current Gold stylus.  I can't speak to that but see comments on Needle Doctor.

Thanks ghosthouse and chakster. I am always cautious when I read various forums where people claim what a significant difference an upgrade made to the sound. Cost of the stylus shouldn't be a deciding factor and if the original Gold is similar in price why shouldn't the performance be?  Some say "what a difference". I have been in the audio "hobby" long enough to realize that when folks spend extra $$$ they are convinced that it was for the better. Sometimes true and others not. But, that's their perspective.
ghosthouse....thanks for your suggestion. I'm not looking to convert my vinyl setup into a significantly superior one. If only marginal gains were to be obtained I would consider it. I read other forum posts with a bit of skepticism. There just seems so many that recommend that stylus upgrade.
chakster....Thanks for your input as well. From what I've read is that the XTZ cartridge has been out of production for a while. Besides, if I would
spend $450+ on just the stylus, for the same money why wouldn't I just upgrade the entire cartridge??
Thanks to all. I appreciate all the input.

 

.Thanks for your input as well. From what I've read is that the XTZ cartridge has been out of production for a while. Besides, if I would
spend $450+ on just the stylus, for the same money why wouldn't I just upgrade the entire cartridge??

You're right, for $450 you can find a good cartridge, but not the Joseph Grado Signature XTZ which is nowadays impossible to find and the cost would be at least $800+ But i saw the XTZ styli available - they are the best Grado ever made for that type of cartridges. 

I have Joe Grado Signature XTZ and you can seach info on audiogon about this beauty, in the 80s the price was $750 and it was a flagship model, amazing cartridge, mainly because of the XTZ stylus. 

So it's up to you, the cheapest styli for Grado is Black or DJ100i, so you can go lower if you want. 

Get into the Woods to improve over the Prestige line.  I have a Grado Gold and went to Reference platinum and the result was very good.  The Platinum 2 is now out and at $350 is audibly better than the current Prestige gold.  There is of course the drawback ..... non replaceable stylus!

Yours,

Sam

The Grado 8MZ signature cartridge is sweet. I have one mounted on a Victor 750 tonearm & it's about the best (overall) I've had in my system. 

My mistake the arm is a Victor UA-7045. Not sure where the 750 came from... 

It's a great tonearm and i've been using my Grado Signature XTZ on Victor UA-7045 too. 

Chakster,
In the 8MZ body, would the difference between the XTZ & the TLZ stylus insert be large, or in that body would it be about the same? 

I would guess you wouldn't hear much of a difference.....when it's done, let me know.

@boxer12 Let me quote our member Frogman to answer your question, see below:

The Grado XTZ was intended to be a more refined sounding version of the TLZ. I owned both (as well as the 8MZ) years ago. Both are fine cartridges, but while the XTZwas indeed a bit more refined sounding, it was also more polite sounding. The TLZ was noticeably more alive and dynamic sounding while sounding a bit brighter and very slightly unrefined by comparison. In my system at that time the TLZ was a better choice. Output for both was 1.5 mv vs 5 mv for the 8 series. If memory serves, the only difference between the TLZ and XTZ was a better dampened cantilever for the XTZwhich, contrary to the "rigidity at all costs" school of thought, was comprised of different sections of tube of different diameters to create the taper of the tube. Again, if memory serves, the XTZ's cantilever was made up of three different sections vs the TLZ's two. Both had excellent sound staging, fine generous bass, and very natural timbre (especially the XTZ).

Hah!   Saw this post a couple of days ago with the intention of responding when I had some time, but I see that chakster did it for me ;-).    Chakster is correct, the XTZ really was a terrific cartridge.  I would only add that taking into account that it is impossible to accurately quantify the level of “improvement” from one component to another as it relates to cost, I would say that if one values smoothness and refinement and one’s sound system already satisfies in the dynamics department, then the improvement gained by going to the XTZ stylus from the TLZ stylus is about as much as going to the TLZ from the 8MZ.  Personally, after having experienced the improvements in smoothness and tonal refinement of the XTX, I could not go back to the TLZ.  Good luck.

Chakster, Frogman,
Thanks for the advice/experience. Looks like XTZ is is. 
Springreen,
It will be few weeks out but will post my experience/opinion once it's broke in. Currently breaking in a new JICO stylus in an empire 4000 D/III cart. So far not liking it as well as the Grado 8MZ, but it is improving. 

I knew Joe Grado personally.....his lab was in Westfield, New Jersey.   You always knew when he was in the area when you saw his Lambo tooling around town.  He sang with the Met.....a great friend.  His state of the art reference system was an AR1W for the lows and electrostatics on top.  

He is certainly an audio legend. Do you remember what table he used?

@stringreen 

nice, i have posted this video before, but for those who missed it
https://youtu.be/L2ZpJHGYMC8 

This is a tour to Grado Lab 

Thanks to all who have responded to my original post regarding a stylus upgrade from the original stylus of the Grado Gold cartridge. Certainly, most of you have much more experience with the Grado brand. Sure, better sound can be obtained with a complete cartridge/stylus upgrade. But, my original question was if the 8MZ would offer an improvement. If the Gold isn't capable of noticeable sound improvement with just a simple stylus upgrade then I will just wait until a later date and upgrade everything.There were styli mentioned besides the 8MZ. If those other styli are superior that is of interest. My phono stage is a Graham Slee Reflex with it's PSIU. It is only capable of support for MM cartridges. I know Slee has an extra piece (Elevator) that will provide increased settings for a MC cartridge but I'm not yet ready to make the change.As far as the Grado Gold cartridge goes....will all of the styli mentioned in this post fit into the Gold cartridge body?Thanks to all.

All will fit the Gold. You will be wasting your money replacing the Gold stylus with the 8mz stylus. You should try to find a used Grado cartridge or body from the MCZ and up. These all have a lower output ( 1.57 mv ). If you want to change the stylus on the Gold you should start with the MCZ not the 8MZ. Here are all the specs on Grado cartridges!

https://www.lpgear.com/category/GRA.html

FWIW - some additional info I finally recalled having.  Excerpts from a Jan 2017 personal email exchange w/Rich Grado about differences between Grado Gold vs 8MZ stylus.

Me: I’ve read conflicting info on line about whether the 8MZ V is superior to the Gold or just a relabel of the Gold stylus. Would appreciate any clarifying info you can provide.

RG: The Gold and 8MZ are not the same stylus, they use different generators. The 8MZ is meant for a JG Signature cartridge, but of course will work in any [ ]. Diamond shapes are the same. Preference is in the ear of the listener.

On the strength of that reply, I tend to agree with Yogiboy to go "up line" stylus-wise or cartridge-wise if seeking a significant improvement over the stock Gold cartridge.

Just ordered the XTZ today. Should be a couple days before I receive it. Any recommendations on switching the stylus's out? I can't seem to find the nifty tool that came with the signature cartridge (for this purpose) when new.  

Great! Yep, you must be careful when you will try to pull out the old stylus assembly from the Grado. But i hope you will get the manual with new stylus and you can check the direction. They are sitting tightly, but if you will apply force in the righ direction you can pull it out manually, slowly (without that nifty tool). 

Thank you chakster & frogman for the advice on this stylus. I've got about 9 hours on the XTZ stylus right now & can tell you I'm really digging it. This does not sound like the same cartridge. Cleaner top to bottom with much better focus & a wider/deeper stage. Vocals are also beautiful. One question; What are you guys using to clean the stylus? I read somewhere on this forum that Grado doesn't recommend any fluid for cleaning... Just wondering. 

I use Onzow Zerodust after normal stylus cleaning brush. Not sure why this device is expensive now, i think i paid $25 including delivery. I always use ultrasonic Cardas LP for "clening" and sometime for burn-in process. 

Thanks chakster

Nice combination Jaf36. For the money, I don't know how you can better it. 

@jaf36

I bought the 8mz stylus and installed in the Gold body. The stylus is a significant upgrade over the stock stylus. The Gold stylus doesn’t present as much treble resolution as the 8mz.

next time you can upgrade with XTZ stylus for the same cartridge, that was the best stylus in this series. 

Not to hijack this now older discussion, but I have a related Grado question.

Among a few cartridges I got from a dealer friend when he could no longer handle vinyl playback was a Grado 8MX.  I don't recall ever seeing anything on that, only the 8MZ as mentioned here.  That collection, along with purchases from Raul's post, means I've not listened to everything yet.

So Grado experts, what about the 8MX?  Was that simply the earlier version of the MZ as the alphabetic progression would suggest?  If so, is there performance similar?

Hi, where can I find a new replacement stylus for my MCZ and which stylus is compatible?

@pryso

The 8 MX is start of sale in the year 87/88
these specifications:

output: 3.5 mv at 3.54 cm / sec
response 10-50,000 Hz
separation channels 25db
compliance 25
tracking force 1.5 gr.
stylus twin tip
impedance preamp 47,000 Ohms
stylus replacement 8mx/s

Best-Groove / LP Gear or Needle Doctor. I've purchased from both of them in the past without any issues. 

chakster....I am most interested in your statement about removing the existing stylus. When I bought the Grado Gold cartridge from my local dealer and their turntable expert installed it on my table I asked him the question about removing and reinstalling the stylus. He demonstrated by removing and replacing the stock stylus in a matter of about 3 seconds, Would any of these stylus upgrades be any more difficult to install?Thanks for all advice.

@boxer12 Thanks :)

pryso, I went through almost every “Signature” Grado back in the day. I suppose the 8MX could be considered an “earlier version of the 8MZ” and it did precede the 8MZ. However, as I recall there was a fairly significant uptick in overall sound quality with the release of the Z “series”. If memory serves there was an upgrade in the quality of the internal wire and magnet material as well as other “improvements” to the stylus assemblies. The 8MZ was to my ears a better sounding cartridge than the pricier MCX which was a better sounding cartridge than the 8MX. Perhaps that puts things in a useful perspective. All fine sounding cartridges with that wonderful midrange.

8M, 8MR, 10MR, 8MX, MCX, MCX II, 8MZ, MCZ, TLZ, XTZ, 8MZ v, TLZ v, XTZ v.

I owned every one (!) except for the “v” versions of the Z series. All fine sounding cartridges with that great Grado midrange. The Z’s struck me as a significant step up in sound quality; especially the XTZ.

Can you put a MCZ, TLZ, or XTZ stylus on a grado black 1 cartridge???

Yes

Grado doesn't go into a lot of details on the specs of their stylus tips. Ortofon specifies tip mass and also if it's nude or bonded.

The Sonota 1 was nude elliptical, the current Sonota isn't. I also heard from KAB and vinylengine forum that the 8mz stylus used to be nude but current production is not. So it would seem swapping in a current 8mz versus a gold stylus is maybe no longer much of an upgrade. 

The cartridge is also a complete system, the more expensive ones from the older models may fit Prestige body but will likely work best In the older bodies.

Some people have better retipping outfits work on the Grado cartridges, which is another alternative to stylus swapping.

Just chiming in because I recently did work on both a Grado Prestige Gold stylus and a recent issue 8MZ stylus.  Both have the same diamonds.  The 8MZ has a focus on lower mass for better tracking.  To that end, the cantilever is slightly narrower and the generator is obviously smaller because it puts out 2/3 the voltage of the Prestige Gold cartridge.  This should lead to better tracking due to lower moving mass.

In listening, the 8MZ is a tad brighter and much lower volume.  Details are plentiful and clean.  All other Grado goodies are present in full.

The Gold stylus is a bit more mellow in comparison, plenty of detail but not quite as crisp.  Also louder.  

Difficult to say which one I actually prefer, but I think I like the more laid back Gold. I did not try the styli in a Signature body to see if there would be any difference.  These were tried in a Gold2 body.