Achtung Baby is probably my favorite US album. When it first came out I had it on cassette tape. Then, years later acquired it via iTunes. Always listened to it on OEM car stereos or low end systems.
Now that I've got my high end system I do not like the SQ of the standard compressed iTunes version. So I did a little research on the dynamic range web site dr. loudness-war and purchased a cheaply priced copy of the Island Records CD (314-510 347-2, cat # D125174) that rated pretty highly on that site in regard to dynamic range anyway.
Well, it does not sound good. Way too bass heavy and bass is a muddy wall of background noise, midrange and vocals seem lost in it all, treble is okay. It seems like the dynamic range is concentrated in the high and low ends. I noticed on the CD that it was "Manufactured for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc." I'm assuming this was a club CD. It was new (old stock). Don't know if that might be part of the problem or not.
I compared it to Tidal's high res version (but just from my laptop to pre-amp via RCA cord, no DAC) and even that sounded better than the CD but still not great in my opinion.
So I'm wondering, who has a CD of this album that they like? I do not have an SACD player or BluRay. Or do all the CD versions sound so-so? That would be surprising for a band like U2 but still possible I guess. Any recommendations much appreciated.
Right, I use Steve Hoffman for info on SQ. Discogs is best for finding the early CD and LP releases. Amazon vendors have no idea what version of a CD they are selling.
I'm sold on German and Japanese pressings. Also the best for vinyl original releases, IMO.
Shipping from Japan is expensive. Very fair costs from UK and EU.
n80 the CD in your possession is defective in some way. I own hundreds of BMG cds and do not have any degradation in sq. Good advice as above on imported versions. Happy Listening!
That makes things complicated...in other words, if that is not the problem, then what is?
The implication is that you can consult the dynamic range data base and pick out the fullest dynamic representation but that alone, of course, doesn't say anything else about the whole package, the overall SQ.
And to me that is frustrating. I have a handful of CDs that are so sonically appealing that the actual song itself isn't as critical. In other words, they aren't among my all time favorites but they are so well recorded and presented on the format (CD) that they are a joy to listen to. A few that come to mind: Aja by Steely Dan, The Soul Cages by Sting, Dire Straits by Dire Straits, Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
I want that in all of my CDs. So when it comes to an album like Achtung Baby which contains some of my favorite individual songs, it is disappointing when the SQ is not as compelling as I would like it to be. Then what? How many CDs do I have to buy before finding one with that SQ.....assuming it exists. Maybe it doesn't.
And then maybe it is juts a matter of taste in regard to SQ? A certain way I want stuff to sound? Maybe U2 didn't want it to sound the way I want it to. That may be it. It seems ponderously bass heavy and I know that has been a trend over the decades. Maybe I've just fallen out of love with that take on popular music. I certainly hear, and do not like, the loudness pumped into a number of recent CDs....but not this one per se.
Anyway, just thinking out loud. I appreciate the thoughts on the matter.
I'll give this CD another listen or two. Maybe it just needs a little more volume to tighten up....I'll have to wait for my wife to go out and crank it up.
Seems to me what you remember from your original tape is the US release. I would look for an original US release CD or the 2011 remaster. I understand your frustration I have some cd's I rarely listen to and have tossed some out.
I’m not saying the quality of the CD in n80’s possession is due to being a BMG release. It most likely is a poor quality pressing or a defect. My point was to find the best pressing possible.
The SQ of a record club release being different than the record label is solely due to my experience with classical CDs. I have more than a few BMG and Columbia House issues that dont measure up. Club issues for rock and pop probably are relabeled discs. Often with classical CDs and LPs, the record club would have paid to have a series of music pressed separately for their distribution. Some club issues of a certain composer have been purchased later in their entirety and remastered for release by a record label.
And to me that is frustrating. I have a handful of CDs that are so sonically appealing that the actual song itself isn't as critical.
Same here. The sonics are so good it makes for an enjoyable listening session. I'm repeating myself, but in many cases I have taken SQ advice from the Steve Hoffman forum.
djones, my memory is from the original release but it is also from low end audio gear so I think that has less to do with it than some of the measuring stick CDs I listed above.
lowrider, I need to spend more time at the Steve Hoffman site. However it seems that it isn't organized purely for looking stuff up. You have to dig into the various very large threads. But, I'll figure it out.
I joined the Steve Hoffman site and posted about this. There seems to be a consensus that this is just how that album was produced.
It seems like I remember hearing that U2 was influenced (among other things) by electric dance music which is, from the little I've heard, totally bass driven to the point that the bass has an atmospheric quality. So maybe that explains things.
Clearly my taste has grown away from bass heavy music. I can tolerate it as long as it is distinguishable. On the first two tracks of this album you can't differentiate the kick drum over the bass guitar and the bass guitar notes are hardly distinguishable one from another.
Its a shame. I think the songs on this album are great and the lyrics are simply incredible on almost every song. Maybe one of my favorite albums in terms of lyrics. Just amazing. But now I don't really want to listen on my new system.
I guess I can still enjoy it in the car on with ear buds while on my tractor.
Hi N80 Put on the Achtung Baby from Tidal and in my opinion it sounds fine. Not as detailed maybe, more power. Hear the kick-drum in So Clear. Got all the dynamic you can wish for. The bass lines are really deep which makes them hard to separate from the kick-drum in some songs. But not in Zoo Station and especially not in Mysterious Ways.
The problem with U2 recordings I have found is that they need good equipment (speakers) to really understand and appreciate them. And when you got that you understand how good (live) they are. I am now listening to Achtung Baby through my newly acquired used Unity Audio The Boulders active monitors which are high grade recording/mixing monitors. They are very balanced and goes deep and that is what you need for U2. Elac mid with a built in Elac ribbon. If your speakers exaggerate the bass the sound will be a mess. If they don't play the deep enough you will not understand anything.....
ozzy62, wish you a better life. You seem depressed.
Made me revisit other U2. Tidal as always for me (when I don't have to order some cd that not exist on Tidal like I did with the only release from David Forman recently (and BBA - Live Japan and Alessi Brothers)).
The latest Songs of Experience is very dynamic and balanced. Still heavy kicks bot now with bass lines that are very good separated. Maybe not as live as the darker Achtung Baby. Actually my room rumbles. Lots of deep in the recordings. Reference recording.
Thanks gosta. Although I am a new audiophile and don't have a lot to compare my system to in regard to other equipment, I understand that the system I have is decent. (Audio Research LS16 tubed line stage, Proceed HPA2 amp (Mark Levinson) and Aerial Acoustics 7B tower speakers.
Reviews of the LS16 and the speakers suggest that they are not bass heavy.
I do not hear the system as bass heavy with other recordings. Just the opposite sometimes. In other well recorded media (Aja by Steely Dan) I would say the bass is perfect for me. I'd even use the word luscious.
Anyway, there is a chance that it is just a matter or my taste having changed I guess.
That's why I believe Achtung Baby could be better to judge the quality of the speakers than Aja. Everything will sound fantastic with Aja. it's that kind of audiophile recording.
Yes, I saythe speakers because the rest of the chain matter to a degree but the speakers decides what you hear. And naturally the room. Why not try to move around the speakers and see what happens with the sound and the separation in the bass.
It seems odd to me that it requires a better speaker to cope with what by all accounts is a CD that is not particularly well produced (comparatively). It seems to me (but I am a beginner) that everything in the chain has to be at a certain quality level to achieve optimum SQ.
But, maybe SQ is not the right term. This CD might have the exact SQ U2 was after but the SQ they were after is what you would hear in a giant room full of dancing people with throbbing, pulsing base where subtlety has no place. And that's just not my taste anymore. And worse, I hear people talk of 'listening fatigue' and that seems to be the effect I get from this album.
Anyway, my speakers seem to be in the right position for well produced sources like Aja, Dire Straits, Wish You Were Here, Hemispheres (Rush) and the bulk of what I listen to, including a number of classical pieces like Saint-Saens' Symphony No. 3 for organ with its literally room shaking bass that is still clear and precise.
My speakers weigh #120 pounds and are on spikes. I could try to get them even further out from the wall but that seems like a lot of trouble.
I am also not in this hobby as a pursuit of anything greater than what I already have. So the equipment I have is all there is going to be. So I'm stuck with U2 as they are as well I'm afraid.
But, one afternoon when I its rainy outside and my wife isn't home I might just attempt an Achtung Baby system tune up and move those speakers around and even some furniture!
Not necessarily better speakers but speakers that are quite balanced from top to bottom especially in the lower registers because the album Achtung Baby has a lot of energy below 100Hz. That is also very complicated because the room interacts a lot with the speakers in that register. Not easy if you have lare fullregisters to move around. One solution is then, which I apply , to use studio monitors in a more close-filed listening position (in front of my working place). Instead of moving the speakers try to place yourself in different positions in the roo, just to hear how the sound changes in the bass register. I also got good results, but not perfect at all, with my ATC 150 in a more farfield position.
For recordings like Aja and the even superior recording of Gaucho it is if not easy so at least much easier to achieve a good result. They have a much more simple setting of individual instruments and are recorded with a much dryer bass.
Also remember that Achtung Baby was recorded by Daniel Lanois and Brian Eno. You actually need to be in the studio with them to understand what they are doing....Search for Daniel Lanois and you will find some truly fantastic recordings and real challenges to any, even the best, HIFI systems. But Achtung Baby may be the most complicated. Thanks for your tip!
ps. A room correction system is always helpful like DSpeaker Antimode 2.0 and similar. I micht soon try a Trinnov
An idea occurred to me. I really can't move my speakers much further out from the wall than they already are and moving 120# speakers just for one album is kind of nuts. But, the bass ports on the Aerial Acoustic 7Bs is in the back. I may try putting a sock on the bass ports to see if that will un-muddy things a little on the bass end.
Will report results later....maybe much later. My son and his girlfriend are 'refugees' from Florence and are at my house now so my listening room is now my son's bedroom.
I was able to get a few minutes in my listening room-turned-refugee-camp and socks in the rear facing bass ports helps a good deal. Without the I did not even want to listen to this album.
Aerial Acoustics actually makes a 'plug' for the bass ports for situations like mine but I suspect a pair of socks works just as well....and at least one professional reviewer agrees.....
I'm not saying it made things perfect but it is a lot better.
Ideally I'd be able to move the speakers further out from the corners but it simply is not practical......plus they sound great right where they are for most of my other music.
Great to hear N80. An old trick to get rid of or at least dampen some resonant bass from big speakers. Socks do fine as long as you don't see them. Maybe different socks have different effect on the sound, I don't know :-).
Like to say that I (again through Tidal) discovered a fine band The Guess Who. Lots of great music, both sweat and hard, good solos, good singing with harmonies and some really beutiful airy recordings in the "old" way. Dynamic "real" drums.
Have been a Guess Who fan for years and even bought some Burton Cummings 45s when I was a kid, 'Stand Tall' being one of them. Was crazy about Bachman Turner Overdrive when I was a kid. Randy Bachman was a former member of the Guess Who. I think the first LP I ever bought was Not Fragile by BTO.
Will look back into the Guess Who as I have no music from them or BTO right now.
Dear n80, I have two copies of AB, a Canadian (https://www.discogs.com/U2-Achtung-Baby/release/2393394) and a 2011 20th anniversary US remaster (https://www.discogs.com/U2-Achtung-Baby/release/3238634). Having listened to both in the last couple of days at both moderate and loud volumes, I can't say that the bass is / was overpowering or a 'muddy wall'; in fact, at certain points I would prefer it stronger. To me the treble on this album seems to be in greater danger of becoming jarring or harsh at higher volumes than the bass does. On 'So Cruel', for instance, Bono seems more forward than the kick drum (which may simply be a matter of imaging, for all I know). Adam Clayton's rolling and propulsive bass lines on tracks like 'Until the End of the World' and 'Ultra Violet', while very firm through my system, aren't unduly alarming or overly forceful. And yes, the bass notes on both 'Zoo Station' and 'Even Better than the Real Thing' are quite distinguishable.
However, my system is very different from yours - an Ayre VX-5 and KX-5, a Metronome CD8-t S and a pair of ProAC Response D30Rs, together with Shunyata cables and a Triton v2. The room's about 24 X 13 X 10 ft., the speakers about 3 ft. from the wall and almost 7.5 feet apart, the listening chair about 8.5 feet from them. I did walk around and even right next to the speakers I did not find the bass overpowering. The D30Rs' downward-firing ports significantly affect the way bass comes across, of course.
I agree with gosta that while U2's albums are still eminently enjoyable with 'inferior' equipment, many nuances and finer aspects of these albums' recording, mixing and mastering only become appreciable with more sensitive and resolving equipment. AB is one album that practically shocked me (in a good way) the first time I managed to listen to it through a good pair of headphones. Perhaps the naughty Mr. Lanois and Mr. Eno's production was such that my current system does not (quite) do justice to this album?
I do hope that you can obtain better results with this CD, or other CDs of this album, in future. I, too, consider it a wonderful and powerful work.
obergaiman, thanks for the response. I have not listened to this CD much since I posted this thread. Will have some time this afternoon to play around with speaker position and blocking the rear facing bass ports. Will have to mark current speaker position because it is just right for virtually everything else.
I plugged the rear bass ports again. The first time I did this I thought it made things better and maybe it did help with the droning quality of the bass but it also created an overall flatness that I did not like.
Decided not to bother hefting 130# speakers around.
However, with the wife not here I cranked up the volume, higher than I've had this system before....and it does help some....but not very practical.
geoff, I think I will look for that CD and give it a try if I can find it cheap.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
