hi minbean, we have a number of individuals that own the merlin tsms in vancouver so why not request a listening session on this forum and audioasylum. just an idea. regards, bobby at merlin
hi rysa4, the tsm is a pedestal mount speaker and the vsm is a floor stander. these two are all we manufacture and only two versions of each model, the mm or mx version. thanks again! b
for the second time in this string a comment i made was not posted. is this a glitch with the site or an over zealous moderator? since rysa4 made mention of the fact that he heard the tsm in our suite at this years ces, i thought it only fair/honest to inform him and minbean that we actually used the vsm mx which is worth 4 times the callisto's list. i thanked him for his kind comments of the sound. he also made mention of the set up of the room, the ac quality and the associated gear and i described all of this for him. so if rysa4 wants to know any of this in more depth, he should e-mail me personally. regards, bobby@merlin
hi rysa4, to be honest with you, the speaker you heard in the merlin suite this year was the vsm mx and super bam. it retails for $10,500.00, about 4 times the callisto's list. i still appreciate your comments and it was rich and myself who set this room up. the system you heard was all joule otl tube gear on critical mass stands, a vpi tnt 6 hotrod with cardas heart cartridge, an audio aero capitole cdp and all cardas golden reference cable. i was also using the 160 and 2q equitechs on the line level and power gear. this is my design and reference system. i have not had the tsm at the show for at least 3 years. i am going to have to bring them again because so many ask to hear them. imho, the tsm mm and mx sound more right and more continuous than even the vsm millennium did. regards, bobby at merlin
OK. I hate getting into these things too much. I have auditioned both in some degree of detail. The GMA room was set up by Roy ( I watched him do some of it myself). I have no idea who set up the Merlin room at CES but I have no doubt that it was done competently and with some semblance of complimentary gear. The rooms arent great and the power quality is likely questionable. I sat infront of both of these speakers for quite awhile- gievn the usual velocity at CES.
The reason I did is because both speakers are wonderfully involving Hi Fidelity offerings. Tbere is no bad choice here and I would like to have a pair of either of them. Both are better speakers than my current reference offerings in my home ( Soliloquy 5.3i- still very enjoyable to me).
I favor the Merlins overall becuase of their unbeleievable clarity, transparency and accuracy. When set up properly, they can be seen, but only the music can be heard. It is really that way. The GMA Callistos are awesome as well. You know you are listening to something special when in front of them and you dont want to get up and leave. But the speaker is audibly there-- thats the difference. The Merlins had perfect coherence of frequency range over what it was reproducing. The Callistos had a slight thinning or softening in the midrange. But I am being SUPER picky here. Both are truely awesome and would be very welcome additons in my home compared to so many pretenders floating all around these days.
I once bought a brand new pair of B&W CM2's. Those did have a major "suckout" or frequency response gap. They were awful on male voices. I noticed it and returned them within one week. This problem is easily noticed, even by neophytes who can't put their fingers on it. It's not something a manufacturer can hide.
My Merlin TSM-MX's have no such problem. In fact, they are known for their uniformity. I love listening to them precisely because they reproduce all my music but the lowest bass. Hours on end. And they're beautiful to look at, too. Others agree, even those who prefer something else. Nobody but songwriter/mauimusicman clings to this abstract dogma. How silly would this position be if he were discussing sunsets:
"Let me tell you about sunsets, although I've never seen one. I've heard all about them, so you should listen to me. I hear they're orange. I don't care for orange. How can orange be nice to look at? It's such an angry color. Sunsets can't be pretty, because they're orange and because I don't like orange. You say you've seen the sun set, but if you liked it, you're wrong because it conflicts with my preconceived notions. Math and science say orange is pychologically disturbing. All the reviews of sunsets must be by lesser mortals who have defective retinas, or uneducated taste. I'll be happy to advise you further on sunsets."
I don't know about you, but if I heard somebody do that, I'd run as fast as I could to see a sunset for myself.
minbean, i have listened to both products but your question or at least the way you posed it, makes this difficult to discuss in a logical or realistic manner. a wise man at the beginning of this thread made mention of the fact that the sound of a given thing, is dependant on the other parts of the system. these two speakers would sound better with different amps, wires, cdps and set ups. what can be learned from an individual using an item with an improper interface and more importantly, how are you to know that it is improper. that is why you should have suggested what your plans were for assocaited gear so these gentlemen had a place to start. regards, bobby at merlin
Troy, I never said that a non time/phase coherent speaker can't sound good. They can and do sound good. Some sound VERY good. I simply happen to think the speaker in my audio system should be able to faithfully reproduce the original waveform that is recorded on my cd's/vinyl, etc, keeping true to frequency response, time and phase coherency (as those are key's to making music sound like music)without adding audable distortions of any kind. When the output from a speaker bears no resemblance to the input from the amplifier, how can that speaker be said to be faithfully reproducing the signal on the recordings? This alone pretty much eliminates the vast majority of loudspeakers from my list. I cannot live with one half to one full cycle of phase shift from my speakers. If this represents a "valid" design in your mind, buy it. If you think my idea of what a speaker should/should not do is narrow minded, so be it. I tend to think people who can't see the obvious advantages time/phase coherency represent are close minded. So we agree to dissagree. Ok?
Songwriter's problem is a problem that many people have when they approach a subject that they know a little about but don't understand the subject thoroughly.
I will give you an example. During medical oral boards, a mix of prominent academically oriented young and old physicians are called on to test the unboarded physicians by giving them theoretical cases to solve. The unboarded physician is then judged on their methodology used in solving the case as well as the solution obtained. The younger physicians that are placed in a position of judging another's methodology often do a poor job of actually judging, due to their limited worldview. These physicians have tunnel vision and are only able to see their approach as correct. These docs are often unable to see that there are usually many approaches to solving a problem. Because of this, before the unboarded physician is failed, the case must be reviewed by another physician to make sure that judging was fair. These young physicians often have low pass rates initially, but given enough time, knowledge, and experience these young physicians actually become more tolerable as they age, and often end up making good judges.
This narrow-minded view is kind of like how your preference for women changes as you age. When I was young, I judged a woman more how she looked and put a high priority on an attractive face and a slim body. Of course these are poor criteria to use when picking a mate. I would say that as IÂ’ve grown older, IÂ’ve come to appreciate the opposite sex in many other ways as well.
Is a Merlin VSM-Mx a better speaker than a Thiel 2.4? Maybe not in terms of time coherence but in several ways it may be better for me depending on my own preferences, knowledge, and which qualities I judge as most valuable. Is a Patek a better watch than a Rolex? Well yes in some areas but perhaps not in terms of durability. Is a Vacheron better than a Timex? Not in terms of timekeeping, price, or durability, but I'd bet you'd pick the Vacheron over the Timex if given a choice. But if I were to just consider the qualities of timekeeping and durability, the Timex is the better watch. If I look at value, craftsmanship, artistry, etc. I may arrive at a different choice. If I donÂ’t know anything about watches, and donÂ’t appreciate the craftsmanship, then I may think it obscene to pay $50K for a watch when I can get one that keeps better time at Walmart for $20. My choice depends on my preference, my knowledge, and upon what qualities I judge as most valuable.
The problem Songwriter has is that either a speaker is 1st order or it is wrong. To him the issue is black or white, and to many time and phase coherence is often a religion. Given enough time he will realize that there are often several approaches that are valid. Like SETÂ’s, tubes, or feedback, time and phase coherence may be important, but there are many other things that are important to think about when designing a speaker.
Like anything in life, a good speaker is balanced, i.e. the summation of several compromises. Things like drivers, damping, power response, impulse response, distortion, crossover slopes, power dissipation, alignment, cabinet design, etc. Focus on only one thing and you will have a poor sounding speaker.
Bobby, it seems you have found a way to avoid that customary 3db suckout at the crossover that other in phase 12db/octave speakers exhibit. Congratulations! I understand why you would be reluctant to discuss this further. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I have a difficulty to understand songwriter72's theory because there are so many nice speakers operating with simple crossover networks without so called phase correction. If frequency is 50Hz, 180 degrees of phase difference means 0.01 second and according to his theory, the movement of of the transducer is advanced or delayed by 0.01 seconds from the amplifier's siganl. Is that true and happen really such way??? Then how is the gap of 0.009 (0.01-0.001) senconds is filled if freqency changes suddenly to say 500Hz???
tarichar, thank you for your post. if you look at figure 9 and 11 and find the assocaited portions of the graph that relate to a -5 degree and 10 degrees off axis (approximate listing position/musical center) of the speaker then these are indeed very flat response curves. if you use the alignment tool to set them up you can move many feet from the right to left and have a stable image and only a substantial vertical move would cause a loss of hf and only to a degree. regards, b
The VSM was reviewed in stereophile at the link below, in the measurements section the VSM is seen to have one of the flatest frequency responses I've ever seen. Also, it can be seen that the drivers are connected in positive polarity.
songwriter, until you hear the speakers and have first hand knowledge of their sound and performance and can make a qualitative assessment of the entirety of these designs, i guess you'll just have to keep making assumptions and have me call you on them. "without taking sides on one or the other" quotes you from a message above and it is obvious that you have. enjoy your gmas, they are fine speakers. but, if you heard the tsms or vsms behind a black sheer and didn't know what they were, you would probably really like them. ;-) there are more ways than one to get the job done. regards, bobby
Bobby, it is my understanding that the mathematics involved in a second order filter dictate that, at the crossover point, you have one leg that has gone 90 degrees inductive and the other leg has gone 90 degrees capacitive. The two legs are 180 degrees out of phase; one is leading and one is lagging. If you wire the drivers in the same phase on both sides of that crossover, what you end up with is a null at the crossover frequency. You say you have no null and wire the drivers in phase.
songwriter, i responded to this comment earlier today but for some reason it did not get posted. minbean is asking for first hand knowledge by those that have heard both speakers and you supply something that sounds a lot like mauimusic's assumptions on audio asylum. if you go by convention, then i would agree with you but the tsm does not exhibit a 3db hole at the crossover point in test or music reproduction. the gmas are very fine speakers imho. but they are one of many fine brands on the market today and perhaps if you were not as fixated on points of design, you might actually enjoy this hobby more. it is true that you may not like our product if you heard it but at least that would be fairer to all reading this. regards, bobby at merlin
I personally don't see how these two speakers can be similar in presentation. GMA uses a 1st order, time and phase aligned crossover network. Merlin uses a 2nd order, non time and phase aligned crossover. Merlin doesn't devulge it's design secrets, but in a thread on Audio Asylum, Bobby from Merlin did say the drivers were wired in phase. If thats true, (and designers feel free to chime in here if i'm wrong), you will have a 3db "suck out" at the x-over point requiring additional crossover parts to "smooth out" Most 2nd order designers choose to wire one driver out of phase to avoid this suck out. Without taking sides on one or the other, I would think these two designs probably would not have the same presentation. They both use good drivers, proper internal bracing, etc. Big difference here is in the crossover used. Hope that helps.
i have not heard the merlin, but I do have the Calliso in a nearfield listening position. I love it: the dynamics, the clarity and liquidity of the vocals and wide and deep soundstage. also, there is far more clean and deep bass than i expected from a rather small speaker ( i have them on 24" skylan stands,mass loaded with sand). sorry that i can't do a direct comparison.
I understand it is very subjective and that is why my question specifies "FOR YOU". That means it is subjective to your system and preferences. The winner will not mean it is absolutely superior.
I am a Callisto owner, and a big fan of the speaker. However, I am contributing this thread not to compare the two and pick a "winner", but to point out that when comparing two (or more) well designed components of reasonably similar quality, there really can't be a clear winner, as it ALWAYS boils down to system synergy.
So, for example, I recently auditioned four different, well-regarded CD players (RA Opus 21, AR CD3, AA Prima MkII, and EMC-1UP) in my system. I ended up preferring (and keeping) the EMC-1, but it would be silly of me to claim that it is superior to the others, as it had only "won" in my system. I'm quite certain that if I listened to the same four players in other systems, my order of preference would change repeatedly.
I'm not suggesting that it isn't fun, or even useful to compare the qualities of individual components, but picking winners can do a disservice to those who are either new to high-end audio, or don't recognize the importance of auditioning a component in their own system before making a judgement.
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