he is an amp desiner jim.
his own gear.
bobby |
songwriter,
i responded to this comment earlier today but for some reason it did not get posted.
minbean is asking for first hand knowledge by those that have heard both speakers and you supply something that sounds a lot like mauimusic's assumptions on audio asylum. if you go by convention, then i would agree with you but the tsm does not exhibit a 3db hole at the crossover point in test or music reproduction. the gmas are very fine speakers imho. but they are one of many fine brands on the market today and perhaps if you were not as fixated on points of design, you might actually enjoy this hobby more. it is true that you may not like our product if you heard it but at least that would be fairer to all reading this.
regards,
bobby at merlin |
songwriter,
until you hear the speakers and have first hand knowledge of their sound and performance and can make a qualitative assessment of the entirety of these designs, i guess you'll just have to keep making assumptions and have me call you on them. "without taking sides on one or the other" quotes you from a message above and it is obvious that you have. enjoy your gmas, they are fine speakers. but, if you heard the tsms or vsms behind a black sheer and didn't know what they were, you would probably really like them. ;-)
there are more ways than one to get the job done.
regards,
bobby |
tarichar,
thank you for your post.
if you look at figure 9 and 11 and find the assocaited portions of the graph that relate to a -5 degree and 10 degrees off axis (approximate listing position/musical center) of the speaker then these are indeed very flat response curves. if you use the alignment tool to set them up you can move many feet from the right to left and have a stable image and only a substantial vertical move would cause a loss of hf and only to a degree.
regards,
b |
you are welcome songwriter.
regards,
bobby |
minbean,
i have listened to both products but your question or at least the way you posed it, makes this difficult to discuss in a logical or realistic manner. a wise man at the beginning of this thread made mention of the fact that the sound of a given thing, is dependant on the other parts of the system. these two speakers would sound better with different amps, wires, cdps and set ups. what can be learned from an individual using an item with an improper interface and more importantly, how are you to know that it is improper.
that is why you should have suggested what your plans were for assocaited gear so these gentlemen had a place to start.
regards,
bobby at merlin |
hi rysa4,
to be honest with you, the speaker you heard in the merlin suite this year was the vsm mx and super bam. it retails for $10,500.00, about 4 times the callisto's list. i still appreciate your comments and it was rich and myself who set this room up. the system you heard was all joule otl tube gear on critical mass stands, a vpi tnt 6 hotrod with cardas heart cartridge, an audio aero capitole cdp and all cardas golden reference cable. i was also using the 160 and 2q equitechs on the line level and power gear. this is my design and reference system. i have not had the tsm at the show for at least 3 years. i am going to have to bring them again because so many ask to hear them. imho, the tsm mm and mx sound more right and more continuous than even the vsm millennium did.
regards,
bobby at merlin |
for the second time in this string a comment i made was not posted. is this a glitch with the site or an over zealous moderator?
since rysa4 made mention of the fact that he heard the tsm in our suite at this years ces, i thought it only fair/honest to inform him and minbean that we actually used the vsm mx which is worth 4 times the callisto's list. i thanked him for his kind comments of the sound. he also made mention of the set up of the room, the ac quality and the associated gear and i described all of this for him. so if rysa4 wants to know any of this in more depth, he should e-mail me personally.
regards,
bobby@merlin |
hi rysa4,
the tsm is a pedestal mount speaker and the vsm is a floor stander. these two are all we manufacture and only two versions of each model, the mm or mx version.
thanks again!
b |
hi minbean,
we have a number of individuals that own the merlin tsms in vancouver so why not request a listening session on this forum and audioasylum.
just an idea.
regards,
bobby at merlin |
try a fine stranded copper like audience au24s.
you'll love them.
b |
minbean,
as you know the tsm mm is extremely continuous from top to bottom. you also know that the speakers do not have a dip in the midrange and imho, a silver cable will be a better fit with a typical speaker with a bbc style dip in the mids. the tsm mm or mx is better suited to a finely stranded copper wire like the audience au24 or cardas golden ref(litz) or even mit. these will retain the clearity and relax/flesh out the sound so more music will be able to be appreciated. for your work you may like the silver wire interface but for music appreciation you may prefer the copper wire. it is of couse, up to you.
glad you are enjoying them,
bobby |
songwriter,
i almost admire your single minded approach to the issue you are speaking of. and i agree partially with the thought that an accurate speaker (if done correctly) will have less sonic issues of its own to combine with those on a recording. so more recordings (even poorer ones) sound better. people have been saying exactly that about the mm and mx versions in the merlin speaker line since their inception.
where you and i start to differ is when you assume the propblem is immediately with the speaker and not somewhere else. i clearly outlined what i thought was minbean's issue and it was not the speaker. and by the way, minbean does not have an issue with the tsms but you do. you continue to make assumption after assumption about something you haven't heard or tested. just like on aa where you continually accused me of having a mid band suck out until a fellow reader posted the stereophile review of the frequency plot from the 2001 vsm review. if you looked at the response relative to the musical center and 10 degrees off axis, it is still one one the very flatest responses ever shown in that magazine. you were proven wrong. if you would have listened to the product first, you would have known there was no midband depression evident.
few people refine their products as i do over as long a period of time and stay dedicated to a given design. few people use the crossover components i do because of their cost and availability and even fewer use the sophisticated circuits i have developed to make these designs work as they do. it takes many years of research to make a world class product.
and just so you know, i started out designing first order and phase accurate, time aligned designs and can say without a doubt that my latter merlin designs are a lot more music like and accurate. what you gain in one design you may lose in another or you may find many other things that are preferable or more important in another design. but how would you ever know unless you hear/test an item set up as it was meant to be.
my speakers are not for everyone obviously and i have said this many times before. no single design can ever be. gmas are very fine speakers but they are only another approach to music making.
regards,
b |
hi drubin,
if you take a speaker that has flaws or a character of its own and combine that with a flawed recording and those flaws are embellished, you can end up with a mess. but if you take a flawed recording and play it through a neutral and accurate design, then the faults can become more listenable and the music can then be appreciated. that is the point. no one is trying to make a speaker that covers up faults.
and bombaywalla,
i specifically used a very soft tone so nothing could ever be taken as mud slinging and because i am a gentleman, i do not ever do this as a rule unless provoked and that rarely happens. i have respect for gma products and will not say anything against them.
so why not leave a man alone who is enjoying his new purchase instead of grinding away at him. he said he was offended already, what does that tell you.
here i am sticking up for my customer and not his speakers.
regards,
bobby |
hi drubin,
if you take a speaker that has flaws or a character of its own and combine that with a flawed recording and those flaws are embellished, you can end up with a mess. but if you take a flawed recording and play it through a neutral and accurate design, then the faults can become more listenable and the music can then be appreciated. that is the point. no one is trying to make a speaker that covers up faults.
and bombaywalla,
i specifically used a very soft tone so nothing could ever be taken as mud slinging and because i am a gentleman, i do not ever do this as a rule unless provoked and that rarely happens. i have respect for gma products and will not say anything against them.
so why not leave a man alone who is enjoying his new purchase instead of grinding away at him. he said he was offended already, what does that tell you.
here i am sticking up for my customer and not his speakers.
regards,
bobby |
minbean,
thank you for the new information. if you had watched me closely for many years i have had the preference for amplifiers that are less damped/lower feedback and actually run my joule vzn 100s with the feedback off or the berning in the lowest feedback setting. when you have a speaker like the merlin that is so uniform from top to bottom a damped amp/wire or source will choke the tone to a degree. if a speaker has the bbc style dip, the mid depression relative to the bass being up by comparison calls for a damped amp for control. even changing the wire to a more finely stranded copper cable will sound like you have extended the bandwidth extremities because you have relaxed the mid band.
keep me posted and enjoy!
thanks,
bobby at merlin |
hi songwriter,
you and i are actually much closer together than you might think. i am very sure that the gmas were a complete revelation to what you had before and i am glad that you have found them. you obviously enjoy them tremendously and be sure, that they are a great product.
as a designer, i must look at all relative issues and not fixate on one over another. you might be really shocked to know exactly what my feelings are on phase and time alignment. i can tell you i share much of your belief but i will not go into that here. i just think there are more important issues that need to be dealt with if the phase and time issues are dealt with in a comprehensive manner. that is why, when ever i did a seminar i asked those attending what their personal preferences in reproduced sound were. i found it was a mixed bag that was constantly changing.
for that reason, i feel strongly that until you hear my speakers playing music the way they were designed to be used or see them tested, you are relating assumption based on preconception.
it may be true that you still won't enjoy them as much as your gmas but you know what? i'll bet you like them more than you thought you would. they have other stregnths to consider.
in the past you have gone after a number of my customers and upset them with aggressive comments/behavior. volker in va on audio asylum was another occurance like this one. here the professor said he likes the explicit nature of the vsm and you took it to mean that the speaker was flawed. you cared not that he was listening too much in the near field and used silver wire on them. again the comment of using the headphones as a comparison tool. i specifically recommend not to do these things but guess what, he likes/prefers it that way. it was and is, his taste.
the same went on here with minsoo. does not matter how he has them set up or what he is using on them...it is the speaker that is wrong.
i hope this that this can finally be put to rest songwriter. it is good to feel so strongly about a thing, but not to be a pest.
these speakers are used by many as a reference tool for many things and it is not because they are flawed. they are very continuous and show great contrast without being bright (if set up as i suggest). they have a very wide bandwidth and sound like music.
again, i think you would like them.
regards,
bobby |
hi elsneb,
i saw your post and replied to it. my guess is that the moderator removed them both because he/she felt we were going off topic.
when someone says negative things about a product that they have never heard and i stick up for the customer and the product, that is not marketing. it is my right to defend the wrong.
never forget that minsoo said he likes the tsm and that he was offended by this.
now, who was doing the marketing?
as i have said hundreds of times before, my speakers aren't for everyone.
and by all means, enjoy your gmas, elsneb.
regards,
bobby at merlin |
