Well.. good for you restock..I'm glad to see the combo working out for you. That sealed sub really makes a difference doesn't it! Imagine what two of your subs configured in stereo will sound like..it makes a big difference.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
Fostex based speakers: Cain Abby or Omega Super3R
It is finally time for me to ask some questions: I am completely stuck on the question of speakers: I am deliberating to wander off into single driver land. Any experiences and comparisons between the Abby's and Super 3's will be very helpful. Room size will be medium to small. Can you please tell me about your experiences with room placement of these speakers? Also, any comparison between the nearfield and the normal version of the Abby’s would be great.
Right now I only have a Jolida 302b tube amp with certainly enough, or even too much power. I am thinking of assembling an SET system around these speakers later down the road (Bottlehead amps, Wright Mono's, etc.). The Abby’s are slightly more efficient (97dB vs. 93dB) and might be easier to drive. Sources are an Audio Aero Prima and a Michell Tecnodec/DL103/Dino.
Thank you very much for your help.
Rene
Right now I only have a Jolida 302b tube amp with certainly enough, or even too much power. I am thinking of assembling an SET system around these speakers later down the road (Bottlehead amps, Wright Mono's, etc.). The Abby’s are slightly more efficient (97dB vs. 93dB) and might be easier to drive. Sources are an Audio Aero Prima and a Michell Tecnodec/DL103/Dino.
Thank you very much for your help.
Rene
42 responses Add your response
Over the last weeks I have been listening to the Omega Super 3 some more:After much longer break-in (right now around 300+h) the sound has become a little fuller with a little more authority (as far as small monitor speakers go). Pairing the Super 3 with the Acoustic Visions MRS10 subwoofer is an incredible tight, musical sounding, and exciting combination. The bass and midbass is much tighter and faster than what I am used to with the EL34 based amp and somewhat balances the soft bass, the EL34 based Jolida 302b is known for. Also, the Omega's dissappear more easily and soundstage is better than the other monitors (Spendor S3/5, Mission 751). Recalling the Abby's in my memory, the Abby's are still richer and fuller sounding, with a significantly larger soundstage. But that really is expected due to the difference in size. After having the Omega's now for a longer time it is getting difficult to go back to the Spendor's or Mission's. The sacrifice in speed, transparency and openness is just too much. I am still planning to get the Abby's, but now I'll certainly keep the Omega's around for a while. |
Restock, drivers with a whizzer cone are not single driver speakers. They are 2-ways with a mechanical crossover. I'm not trying to fault anyone who likes the sound and high efficiency of the whizzer cone drivers. Fostex also makes true single drivers like the F120A ($218 each) and F200A. Since there is no support of the edges of the H-F cone it will resonate and have odd resonances that do not sound good to me. A better choice, from a measured point of view, is the Epos which is a 2-way with no crossover components and both drivers are fully supported at the edges so less distortions. |
Well, I finally got to listen to both: The Omega Super3 and the Cain Abby. I received the Omega Super 3 (standard version with upgraded flared ports) about 2 weeks ago, broke them in for 150+h with extremely loud music and burn-in CD's (by connecting the speakers out of phase and canceling the most of the sound). CDP is an Audio Aero Prima, using my Jolida JD302b and a Sonic Impact T-amp (stock version) with batteries and wall wart power supply. Total listening time so far: about 30h. The Abby's I listened to at Sounds Real Audio in Colorado for only about 4 hours. Source was again an Audio Aero Prima. Amps were the Jolida amp and a Sophia Electric EL34 amp. First of all: Given the time constraints these are only first impressions, but nevertheless might be helpful for someone here. Other speakers around were Mission 751 monitors and Spendor S3/5. First thing one notices when listening to the Omega's is their speed. I don't think, I have ever heard a speaker this fast; the Spendor's are close, but could not keep up with the fast changes, e.g. on Korsakov’s "Scheherazade" (Reiner, CSO). Along with the speed the Omega’s display a transparency, detail, and soundstage that I have only heard on QUAD ESL 57’s. On Tori Amos ‘Little Earthquakes’ CD the Omega’s displayed a delicacy to Tori’s voice that was incredible. These amazing ESL like qualities are probably due to the relatively small single driver in the Omega’s. However, this did come with a trade-off: The Omega’s could sound occasionally thin and had a slightly dipped up balance. Of course, this should get better with longer break-in, and could be improved with a warmer sounding amp than the Jolida. The Sonic Impact was a little warmer than the Jolida on top, but actually (believe it of not) gave up a little in speed. Amazingly the Jolida did give the Omega’s a faster, more liquid sound. The problems with the Omega’s are also highlighted in my current room, which apparently pronounces the 4-7KHz part of the spectrum. Overall the Omega’s are incredibly good speaker’s and together with the $30 Sonic Impact make a great system. Also, I did run the Omega’s with a Acoustic Visions MRS10 subwoofer for a while, which did help to provide a little more body to music, although the Omega’s still did not even match the fullness of the Mission’s or Spendor’s. As with respect to the Abby: As predicted by several of the above posts: Comparing the Omega’s and Abby’s is like comparing apples and oranges (they are both single driver speaker, but their sonic signature is quite different). Listening to the Abby’s, it is quite clear from first sight/listen, that these are large floor standers. The Abby’s produce an incredibly large soundstage and large wall of sound (probably other larger speakers do the same, but compared to all monitors, I have been listening to so far, it was incredible). And they really like to be played loud. Voices and instrument had a texture and fullness that surpassed any of the speakers I listened to so far. The oud on Rabih Abou-Khalils “Sultans Picnic” was fuller and much richer than with the Omega’s. The picking of strings was much more realistic and displayed incredible shades, not heard before. The Abby’s still displayed a lot of detail and speed; however, compared to the Omega’s, they sounded almost slow. Also, as mentioned in several reviews, there are some (cabinet) resonances that are clearly audible. There was no damping material in the ports, which might have helped a little. One, important note on the side: The Abby’s sounded much better with the Sophia: Full, very tight sound with very liquid smooth highs. The Jolida could sound in comparison somewhat rough (with Tesla ECC83, Mullard CV4024). The Midrange had sometimes a strange forward (honking?) sound that was not there with the Sophia. Different tubes (Brimar 6060, GE 5751) smoothed this out quite a bit. Overall, it seems the Abby’s require a very careful amp, tubes, speaker’s cable matching, but a good match will be an incredible reward. The AA Prima, Sophia EL34, Abby was a great combination. I don’t even want to know how good a SET amp will sound. Also, besides their sound, the Abby’s are some of the most gorgeous speakers I have seen. The woodwork is incredible and far beyond what I would expect at this price. Well, the bottom line: The Omega’s display a speed and transparency that is unbelievable for the price. The Abby’s on the other hand are a real full size speaker. Overall, I enjoyed the fuller sound of the Abby’s more (even given some resonance problems) and after owning small monitors for a wile I will probably go with the Abby’s. And finally thanks, especially to Jim at Sounds Real Audio for giving me the chance to listen to the Abby’s. Also thanks to everyone for all your recommendations. Rene |
SGI - I also ordered the standard version with wide baffle, however with the upgraded ports. Louis had these in stock, so that they will arrive already on Friday. As for break-in: I just got a Sonic Impact T-amp, so that I can run the Omega's continuously, without sacrificing expensive time on my tube amp. They will be connected out of phase, covered with a heavy blanket and run in 24/7 for a week. That way I should have them ready to listen to in about 2 weeks. Nick - Thanks for the Skylan suggestion. I will certainly check them out. Hey, out of all the Audiogon people, you will probably be the first one to give them a listen. Once I get to Calgary you should stop by some time. Mghcanuck, Miklorsmith - I would love to give the druids a listen. Where are located, so that I can invite myself? Anyway, I still plan to drive up to Golden, Colorado to give the Abby's a listen. I will probably take the Omega's along. Someone up in Colorado who wants to give the Super 3 a listen? I would not mind getting to meet people there and listen to music for a while. Rene |
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents regarding the Druid speakers by Zu, which I own. Well, to be precise, I have a pair of their discontinued Rune model (same dimensions and much the same specs as the Druid, with different cabinet construction), which I just had upgraded to the Druid Mk4 specs (new drivers, internal wiring, binding posts , etc.). I really like them. A lot. For a number of reasons. They are rated at 101dB sensitivity, a quasi single driver design (a super tweeter takes over from 12kHz up, without a crossover), minimum 8 Ohm impedence, and frequency response of 35Hz to 20kHz. I'm driving the Druids with a 2Wpc tube amp (power tubes are a pair of 45s) and the music is very sweet. They have great detail, tonality, resolution... and they're not broken in yet. The Druids are slated for a review at 6moons.com in the near future. |
Hi Rene, A pair of 24" Skylan Stands showed up on CanuckAudioMart.com today in Calgary. He want's $100 Canadian for them which is a steal. The catch is local pickup only because they are filled with sand. Maybe your wife could grab them for you. Happy listening and let us know what you think of them. Cheers, Nick |
hi Restock, I too just ordered a Super 3 (Standard) from Louis today (I guess he's probably very busy!) ;) Mine is in Wide baffle configuration. I wonder how different they will sound compared to each others. We can race to see who reached the end of the break-in period first! hahaa! If everything is good, I just might have his upcoming hemp based floorstander all around in my upcoming 7.1 Home Theater/Multi-Channel DVD-Audio project that's on my to-do list. I wonder how they do in the Home Theater field. -=SGI=- . |
Well, I ordered the Omega Super 3 today. It should be coming in pretty soon. Also, I will get one of the Acoustic Visions MRS10 subwoofers which should be in in a couple of weeks. I am still interested in the Abby and will drive up to Colorado in 2 weeks to listen to them; I will probably take the Omegas along and do a comparison as well. I just could not resist either one. If I like the Abby's too much I will have some really good surround speakers that should match well tonally. Another Super 3 single speaker might be great center speaker. Certainly sounds like an itneresting idea. Anyway thanks to everybody for their help. I'll report back as soon as I have a chance to listen to all the speakers. |
They do look like the Fostex supertweeters. All drivers and ultimate product are made in-house though. They do rock, but they don't lose all the deliciousness you fell in love with. The transients and mids are every bit as present. The supertweeters add the last word of sparkle to the top too. They are yummy. and now back to our show. . . |
http://www.zucable.com/druid/index.html Haven't heard the Fostexes with subs, but I bet it's sweet. The Fostexes really get the mids and dynamics right and the value of that cannot be overstated. As I've said before, the Clari-T/Fostex combo had me sell my HCA-2/Gallo Ref. 3 combo in about 4 minutes. Great, great stuff. The hemp cones from Omega look to be super cool too. Plus, everyone that has met Louis says he's a very cool and committed guy that obviously knows it's all about real music at real prices. Tough to beat that. My buddy has my project speakers now and I think he's a convert too. This stuff is too exciting to keep a lid on. |
Miklorsmith You seem very excited about the Druids. How about post a link for them. Maybe one day I will get a chance to hear some.At the moment for my musical taste I'm content with Fostex/Sub combo.But who knows there's always tomorrow! LOL Since your also a ClariT owner..your alright with me! :-) I'm looking forward to the Omega Hemp drop in drivers at the moment. |
Zu Cable and Decware both make full-range speakers with 94 db + sensitivity that are Very competitive, though more expensive. I know a guy in the Seattle area that will have a pair of RL-3's and Druids in his house soon. He's got two Decware tube amps, I have a Clari-T, and another fellow has a 15-watt OTL. Should be an interesting visit. IMO, the Fostex line is only an introduction to what's possible. |
Rich (Rar1), thanks for your comments on the different cabinets. I will talk to Louis about the different options. Also, I will certainly use a tube amp: After getting the EL34 based Jolida about a year ago there is no way back to solid state. For the future, a 300b SET amp or similar is on my list All the best. Rene |
Gmood, thanks for your suggestions of the Adire Rava subs. I will certainly look into that. If I would go with the Omega Super 3 I would surely add one or even two of these subs. For know I would be using the EL34 based Jolida as the main amp to drive the Omega's or Abby's. I was thinking of getting the Sonic Impact T-amp to break in the speakers. I do not really want to run my tube amp 24/7 for 300 hours. I guess I should look at the Clari-T as well. It sound like it would be an excellent amp as well, either backup for my tube amp or as main amp. So far great recommendations and great food for thought. Thanks again. |
...Un-frickin'-believeable. Especially when we plugged in my Nixon battery dac. Can you say paradigm shift? Apart from this one no other system at the show for under about $100k interested me, and even the couple that I liked still didn't have the tonal purity, clarity, and absolute dead silent background that Louis' & Vinnie's combo did. Gary |
Here's a new article on the Omega/Redwine line of battery powered products. |
Rene I use two Adire Ravas. My room isn't huge at all. 25x14 ft with a 10 ft vaulted ceiling. I have my speakers on the long wall roughly 7 ft apart. My subs are a few inches behind the speakers just to the right and left of the speaker stands. I sit 9 feet back and can't distinguish where the subs are in the room with my hearing. Louis actually recommends the CSS CLARUS subs and the Adire Ravas with his speakers. Don't be caught up in the low price thing . These subs are true audiophile quality sounding units.If they weren't I would have sent the first one back and never considered a second unit. They are also dead quiet no humming. This is my pet peave ! Most think two subs or more in a room is overkill. But the part they don't understand is running each sub off a different channel gives you low frequency presence in the music not boom and rumble.Looks like the 6moons reviewer on the Abbys has figured this out. He mentions it in the review. If I ran these units both in mono it would probable give me a headache with too much bass. That's ok for movies though. :-) If you notice the CSS CLARUS sub is actually an Adire based unit. The drivers come from Adire as well as the amplifier. Two of these units run in stereo would be nice with the FR speakers. I use the 206E driver in my Omegas. They are more forward than the smaller drivers. They also beam more. But the key is tow in. Unlike multi driver speakers that really collapse when towed in too far. This speaker thrives on a severe tow in. You can actually bring the soundstage out infront of the speakers. Just by towing them out. The more your tow them in the further back the soundstage gets. The crazy thing is the soundstage width doesn't change at all. The soundstage width is just as wide if you have them crossing behind you or crossing infront of you. Changing drivers out in these types of speakers is a snap. Just undue the connections on the drivers and drop in another pair. You can go as far as changing to a different kind of driver to change the tonality of the speaker. Tubes are terrific on these speakers. But I prefer my Clari T amp with dual sub outputs instead. It's got dynamics that no low wattage tube amplifier that I've heard can produce. The quieter the amplifier the better these speakers sound IMHO. I can tell you it doesn't get much quieter than using a battery powered amplifier. The ClariT also doesn't sound like a solid state amplifier either. Too me it falls down the middle between tubes and solid state. Louis at Omega liked it so much over his reference $2000 SS amplifier. He and Vinnie have teamed up on an amplifier called the Lotus. From what I gather so far it's basically a ClariT in a pimped out chassis with different binding post and a voltage meter. |
Restock: Actually, the Omega Super 3's started out in the wide cabinets. I had originally called Louis about the Omega 3's (his original $399 offering) last July and he had told me that he had discontinued making those and was offering the Super 3 in the narrow cabinet (which was just the squat Super 3 turned sideways). This worked out fine, because I had thought that the wide version was always too stubby looking and apparently, I was not the only one. At the time, Louis had told me he discontinued making the original Omega 3's because they were not really designed to be a true "hifi" speaker, but rather he had originally pictured them being used with computer sound systems and HT applications. He felt that the Super 3s were better suited for the audiophile. It sounded plausible and I purchased the Omegas without having ever heard them. If you go with the Omegas, keep in mind that they work best with tubes. They work fine with solid state amplifiers, but tubes take them to the next level sound wise ... they open up and you will appreciate their sense of rhythm and smoothness. The Omegas can also be frustrating and will leave you scratching your head questioning your purchase, until you have 200 or so hours on them. I wouldn't have believed it, until I experienced it myself. Good luck, Rich |
Gmood1, one more question: What sub you are using with your Omega speakers? I saw that Omega recommends the CSS CLARUS subs. The smaller model can be had for a fairly small amount: Clarus sub Has anyone have experience with the Clarus sub in combination with the Omega's? Thanks again. |
Wow, thanks for all the feedback and comments to my small question. Rar1, thanks for your detailed comments on the room placement of your Omega Super 3. This really helps me out quite a bit. Since you have the Omega’s in the narrow cabinet: Have you actually had a chance to listen to them in a "wide" cabinet? I know the narrow cabinet would be better for upgrading to a Fostex Alnico driver at a later time. Otherwise I have not found much about the differences between the different configurations. I guess I should call Louis at Omega to find out, why he switched to the wider configuration, compared to narrow cabinet of the original TS3. Gmood1, thanks for all your comments on the Abby and Omega speakers. You are right that the comparison is quite unfair. I like the unusual looks of the Abby, but I am a little afraid that it might be a little overwhelming in our smallish rooms. Following your comments on the richer sound of the Abby's I probably would prefer the Abby's, though. Kbuzz is probably right, in that it will probably come down to room size and floor stander/monitor decision. I would prefer a floor stander since I have been living with smaller monitor speakers for the last seven years and since I am longing for change. However, the smaller Omega's seem more flexible for smaller to medium rooms (one of our rooms is square with 10ft x 10ft, the other 17ft x 12 ft with several corners, niches). Probably the nearfield Abby might be the better choice for both rooms. Is it possible to easily switch drivers on the Abby? That way I could try both the nearfield and regular Fostex drivers. Also, I read the 6 moons comments on the different drivers. Does anyone have experience with the Fostex FE206E driver, which was a favorite in this article? Fostex driver comparison Also, I still have to read the 6moons review on the Abby's: 6 moon: Abby review I have been waiting for this review for a while and completely missed that it came out during this last week. Again, thanks for all you comments. Rene |
Hi Joey I use Omega Grande 8's in custom cabinets. They are slightly larger than the normal versions.You can expect 100 hrs before they start to really open up. The fostex drivers will improve well past 200 hrs.These speakers are like fine wine they only improve with time. When you first fire them up. Expect the top end to be closed in. Also their going to be a little grainy. Each speaker will stick out like sore thumbs.What I mean by that is the sound won't be seamless between the two speakers.You will hear two separate speakers from the start. Once you get some time on them you will notice they start to blend together, until it is a seamless sound. The really good stuff doesn't show till past 100 hrs of use. I've said this several times before. If you really want to hear these speakers shine. Pair them up with sealed stereo subs. That's if your room is large enough. I've had fullrange floorstanders and large Magnepans along with some other speakers. My former floorstanders which retailed for $3200 , cannot compete with the Omega speakers paired with powered sealed subwoofers.Everything just seems more controled and open but delicate. I'm getting some serious dynamics with a 6 wpc battery powered integrated. Since the amplifier doesn't pull heavy bass duty. It gives the midrange and highs and effortless sound. The subs add a foundation to the music. You feel and hear those spacial ques in the music. I like the fact I still have tight well controled bass even at very low listening levels. Most passive floorstanders lose their bass at low volumes. At 60 db I still feel the kick of the drums without that bass overhang. |
I'm a long time Abby listener, they are fantastic speakers. I have heard a lot of the smaller Fostex based speakers (but not the Omegas). I’m biased, but take the Abbys. The Abbys address the niche for efficient speakers at a reasonable price, but you still can not get past the iron laws of size, efficiency and extension. The Abbys are not horns and they are not as efficient as one would want to capture a real SET sound. Still, given the basic limits of a single driver you will be amazed at how much music will enter your room, and how palpable it is. The Abbys and specifically the Fostex drivers have a lot more potential than I was able to get out of them with a 2A3 based amp (3.5wpc). The sound was fantastic, visceral and beautiful - so what’s not to love? I think that one can do better, even if it means sacrificing some of the SET beauty. I have thrown a lot different amps against the Abby, the drivers seem to change with each amp or preamp I pair it with. I don’t know enough to figure out what I need to get the best possible sound out of the speakers, lower noise floor, improving dynamics, different incense? If I had the money I’d tell you, but right now I am going to listen more, and come to conclusions gradually. I have the original style Abby, which I remember being 94db, the wizzzer near field is perhaps a little more efficient. In my room I listen at a distance of 8 to 12 feet. Less than 8 and I’d opt for the nearfield driver. I like the interaction between the room and the Abbys, but if you sit too close the normal drivers will sound harsh. In any case, you’re going to like them with the Jolida. Gregg |
I have not heard the cain and cains but i agree that while both are single driver system the abby is really a floor stander and i would guess would go a bit lower in the mid or upper bass. This could probably be confirmed via specs on the web site. thus the issue here becomes room size and desire for a standmount v. floor stander. with that said. let it me known that i too use an omega super 3 narrow baffle and im very very happy. i have owned a large variety of speakers and dollar for dollar really love the omegas. |
Here's another option..and you can save some money if you want to. Bob Brines can build you a custom pair the way you want it for a base price of $850. Click on the link FT-1600 MkII . |
I think that in a review from the omega site the reviewer said that the 3r was a little leaner in the bass and midbass than the abby but less colored. He thought the abby cabinet was the culprit. Speculation to be sure and bias as it was a omega review. If it were an Abby review I am sure that it would have been biased the other way. Also, the real flea power stuff (1-2 watts) will be a little better with the abby than the 3r but both better with at least a few watts. I think Terry Cain said the Abby is great with higher power too. The 3r is less expensive than the abby and might be logical for a fist step. However, from the looks of things I thing the solid wood cabinet of the abby is top notch and worth the money. I bought the last set of 3r's to come up on Audiogon last week but do not have them yet. Terry Cain only lives a couple of hours from my house and I will eventually get down to his place to listen to his great line. I can't own just one or two sets of speakers as I have so many rooms :) Good luck, it is my first adventure down the single driver speaker path too. One thing for sure is that the higher efficiency gives a really nice and dynamic speaker. Stephen |
Rene it's a little unfair to compare these two models. The Super 3R is a bookshelf and the Abbys are floorstanders.There's no doubt about it. The Abbys are definitely easier to drive. They also throw a much larger soundstage and the bass is much deeper. Don't get me wrong the Omega 3Rs are very nice in a small room. I listened to the Abbys on Grommes monoblocks . I believe these amplifiers are 55 wpc if I'm not mistaken. It sounded better on them than the ASL Orchid 2a3 3.5 wpc. The Orchid could just barely get the Omega 3's up to a decent volume. It sounded strained the entire time we listened to them. Room placement isn't that big of deal with these speakers as Rich has pointed out. Just give them atleast 6 1/2 feet apart and a few feet off the rear wall..they will be happy.Since this model uses the whizzer cone..you can tow them in to cross in front of you, without losing soundstage depth or width. The speakers can sound very warm and rich..it depends on the equipment you put in front of them. The Abbys are much richer sounding than the Omega 3s..I'm sure the extended bass has something to do with this.The 6moons review nailed every thing I heard with the Abbys. The review is correct..if you add a subwoofer, the placement becomes even less of an issue. I didn't see the need to even consider the larger Ben model. With a sub or even better two the Abby makes this $5500 speaker sound pretty bad! |
I have been using the Omega Super 3 (Narrow Cabinet - same dimensions as the standard cabinet, it is just turned sideways) for the last 7 months in 2 of my systems. To cut to the chase, it is only when the speakers had about 350 hours on them that I decided that they would be keepers. (Note: Prior to this experience, I did not buy long break-in times.) In one system (room size 20 X 15 X 8 1/2) the Omegas were paired with a vintage (mid-70's) solid state Marantz 2240 receiver (40 wpc); a Music Hall MMF CD 25 cd player; Signal Cable Silver Resolution speaker cables and IXOS Silver Gamma interconnects. Speaker placement was on top of a bookcase about 12 inches from the rear wall. This system did not begin to sound right until I introduced the silver/copper hybrid cables. In a second and current system (room size 15 X10 X 8.5) the Omegas are paired with a Prima Luna Prologue Two tube integrated amp (40 wpc); SONY SCD C555 ES SACD player; Signal Cable Classic Signal Wire speaker cable and IXOS Silver Gamma interconnects. Speakers are on their sides and placed inside of two bookcases about six inches from the bookcase rear wall. The Omegas are not fussy with placement ... they will sound at least good with less than optimal placement, as I have demonstrated. The Omegas are fussy with the upstream equipment and cables that they are paired with. I find, in general, that silver hybrid cables allow for a certain amount of delicacy and improved resolution to the sound ... especially with acoustic instruments and vocals. When compaired to other monitors that I have owned/still own (NHT SB2; EPOS 11; EPOS ESL 3; B&W 302), the Omegas are the most lively and smoothest sounding and they are very forgiving of how well a CD has been recorded. They are especially impressive with vocals and acoustic music. The Omegas are not particularly warm or rich sounding (compared to NHT's), but I am not convinced that any single driver system is. Hope this helps. Regards, Rich |