For those that have heard Dutch & Dutch 8c..

What are the options should Dutch and Dutch no longer be in business in ten years?  What situations could one find themselves in should that be the case?

I’ve had my 8c for almost a year, replacing a big rig of shindo a23 and Aqua.  The whole point and beauty of the 8c is you can dump all your other shit; this point is proving exceedingly difficult for many to wrap their heads around.  
 

You have to Ethernet the Dutch to communicate with your network (no streaming), and then everything is controlled from your Roon (my laptop wirelessly). That’s it.

 When everything is implemented together like this, the results are ear opening.  I also have a TT; you’ll need an XLR from your phono to the Dutch for that.  For those wanting to integrate into HT, it will add complexity; mine is 2 channel audio only.  
 

Did I loose some “musicality” switching from high end multi box costing 5x?  MAYBE 5%.  But now I also actually have real bass and full treble (and can easily alter it on the fly as I please), the room correction addressed the awful acoustics in my listening space (most listening spaces), and the massive reduction in complexity, physical size, and greatly diminished  chances for system failure are a much needed sigh of relief.  About once every 12-18 months there are new software updates that keep improving it.  

There’s certainly a sex appeal to glowing tubes and an altar of beautiful electronics, but these speakers represent next century offerings that run circles around it.   Plus I still have my TT (which surprisingly sounds much better on this new “tech” rig than it ever did before).

I am seriously looking at the 8C but I probably will keep my LUMIN X1 until at least I can be sure the 8C alone can handle everything flawlessly. Thanks. 

@spenav I can't speak directly to your particular dac or whether or not you would detect a change.

I've been using the 8c with a variety of dacs and direct digital inputs over the years.

I use a Bacch-SP as my primary front end and it has very high quality dacs. I've used this source to feed both an analog or digital signal straight to the 8c and I have a very difficult time hearing any difference, but I think that this says more about the A to D conversion, given that the 8c D to A is the common denominator regardless of input.

With that said, I've also run the Bacch straight into SET tubes feeding 115db horns which tend to reveal everything, and I don't feel like I'm missing anything when I go into the 8c.

Lastly, the 8c can stream Tidal or Qobuz over Roon or Spotify natively over ethernet. This allows for a lot of clutter removal.

I hope this helps.

@willywonka 

Seems that the DSP process happens at a later stage, so it won’t be disabled. Whether analog or digital, the signal is treated the same way. Both are manipulated in the digital domain. The analog signal is converted back to digital before processing and back again to analog. So unless you’re using a DAC/streamer, you can skip your DAC. 

Thanks. I got it. Would it be then fair to say that if I get the 8C, I can get rid of my DAC without suffering any lost in performance. Thanks again for the quick and thorough response. 

Hi! 

@willywonka @spenav , you're both talking about your dac's performance relative to be 8c. I'll do my best here.

Since we're discussing dacs, the assumption is that you've already converted the file to analog, and that's what you'd be sending to the 8c (or any other preamp, amp, etc,.). The same is no less true with the 8c. 

Where we differ. Unlike traditional speakers where a passive crossover is introduced after the amplifier stage, our crossovers are placed  in front of the amplifier. 

We receive the full range digital or analog signal, then split it into low, mid, high, then send each signal to a dedicated dac and amplifier, each amplifier feeds it's respective speakers directly. By taking an active approach, we gain enormous efficiency, can customize each filter for every driver, and significantly reduce distortion.

To summarize, you can send your raw digital files or analog signal into the 8c, but it will ultimately go through our DSP and Dacs before our room correction.

At the end of the day, we believe that good acoustic design and integration will provide the best sound, not necessarily "bit depth" races.

I asked this question, and they did tell me I could use my own DAC. The problem is if you do that will it disable the built in DSP. It seems like this DSP is critical for these speakers to sound their best.

Hello @dutchdutchna 

If I have a DAC that I like going to my preamp, and I connect the analog out to the 8C, will the signal stay analog or will it be re-process by the speakers? In other words, can the 8C DAC be bypassed in favor of my DAC?  Thanks. 

Also, in response to questions about repairs, we have the ability to do repairs here in the US. In fact, most repairs can be done in the field. The entirely electronics package can be replaced for repair or upgrade in under 5 minutes. The most difficult component to replace is the tweeter (as we don’t employ a typical surface mount construction), and that only takes about 20 minutes.

Apologies for the slow response. I’m just seeing this thread foe the first time.

For those who were able to visit us at AXPONA, we’re very happy that you enjoyed the sound.

Regarding streaming, the 8c are a Roon endpoint. To that, you can stream Tidal, Qobuz or personal files over Roon. We’re also support Spotify connect. You simply control the playback over their native apps, to which the 8c has a "unity" volume for those applications.

For analog or digital input, you would either use the Dutch & Dutch app for volume control or your analog preamps.

i tried emailing the company on the above but received no reply

anybody know?

confused on the streaming

how does one stream with these without an external physical streamer?

Is it a roon core, can I just buy the roon software for a tablet and done and done?

Can I use tidal direct from tablet straight to speaker without roon?

also, why would they reference a  typical installation of  external pre amp dac and streamer and be seemingly ok with this?

the speaker appears to be sold as an all in one solution, are people finding that the speaker design is solid but poor dac and streaming?

I think you can just ship back the amplifier...not the whole speaker.

I heard them too, I agree with willywonka, but I think used for less than 10k are bargain.

I heard these speakers at Axpona and they sounded amazing! The only downsides In my opinion is the built in DAC down samples everything to 48Khz. This may be fine for much of the music but seems like a limitation to me. Also, the speakers need connections on the back for power, preamp input, network connection and possibly a connection between the speakers. If you have a problem with the DAC, amplifier, DSP or speaker then the entire speaker goes back for repair. Can these be repaired in this Country? The bass on these was amazing! These speakers are now $15,500. 

My brother and I just returned from 3 days at AXPONA in Chicago. We hit ~80% of the rooms and found the 8Cs to be among the most impressive, so much so that we went back and had a much longer listen at the end.

Speakers were on tall stands around 1 ft off the front wall surrounding a huge fixed glass window. They were streaming from a laptop running Roon directly into the speakers, that's all. They said REW had been used to correct the room for 200hz and below. 

This was our first time experiencing active speakers or room correction.  Bass was incredible - exceptionally tight and deep.  Imaging was great. Not sure I'd call the overall presentation musical, but I definitely could happily enjoy extended, fatigue-free listening.

I asked what to do if you don't use Roon.  They said a more typical installation is your own streamer, DAC and preamp into the speakers' XLRs.

For perspective, I've been an audiophile for nearly 40 years (started in high school) and my current system is: Totem Tribe Towers, PS Audio Directstream DAC MkI, Bluesound Node 2i (soon to be upgraded), BAT VK-3000SE hybrid integrated, PS Audio P10 power regenerator, and various high end power, XLR and speaker cables.

I've got a challenging room and don't want to look at or spend the $ on acoustic panels, so pretty sure I'll be adding room correction soon to take my system to the next level.

Why not start with Roon and learn how to use its eq. Very good besides that Roon itself is great. I put a REW measurement into Roon and then manipulate it further manually based on my hearing and liking. Changes it every day to perfection one day :-)

Well if you follow the discussions on this forum you will notice that lots of audiophiles seem very “afraid” of actives or the pro sound. They don’t really yet want to understand what’s the future…no one will buy big SS amps in ten years.

@gosta , why would someone be afraid of active speakers? Is it because if one little thing breaks, the whole system is a brick? That would be my guess, but no, that wouldn't worry me as long as I knew I was buying a quality piece of equipment. Personally,  i find an appeal to the simplicity of minimalist all in one custom designed solution of it's done right.

Thanks guys. Any idea how the Anthem STR integrated would do in a similar scenario? I believe it has dsp. Maybe some decent tower speakers with that integrated would be a decent way to go. (And possibly less pricey). What are your thoughts on that? I'm open to other suggestions btw. Thanks.

D&D 8C used I would guess $9,500 to $10K

Sorry I'm not located in the States. If you're not "afraid" of active speakers you may also consider a used pair of Genelec 8351 with GLM. However they need sub-bass support when you use them as midfield speakers. Which D&D don't. 

@koestner ​​​​@gosta , thanks for sharing your experience.  This is exactly the kind of info i was looking for. One of the speakers In my room doesn't fit into a corner. It's against a wall that goes down a hallway, But I still imagine using whatever these rew curves you speak of are Probably going To provide the best solution unless I get magically lucky with something incredibly synargistic for my space. Any idea what the  D&D 8c go for used? (Hint hint @gosta. 😄lol.)

You measure with REW and a mic directly into the D&D. Very practical. They give you the sound you wish (by manual adjustment of the input REW curve). 

Without REW they will probably also overpower your room.

Because their very special contruction for the bass waves they will work best if you have equal distance for the speakers to the corners of your room.

I used D&D for a while, and still have them, but since discovering Salon 2's I'm not going back (for main system use) :-)

The D&D 8C speakers can be adjusted for any room and placement. You can make them sound clinical, or lush just by changing their curves. With an amp and other speakers you are mostly stuck with their sound, but the D&Ds' can be made to sound like what you want. Anyway, I highly recommend this route for your needs. Oh, I have heard them plenty, and they won't disappoint.

Yes, I understand, but certain "monitors" are known to be either more on the clinical sounding neutral side of analytical sound reproduction versus others that although they are monitors, they have a more musical (less sterile clinical presentation).

In addition to that I was also requesting for any suggestions of used equipment available here that might be synergistic to pair together off of the used for sale posts in this forum that would be a better result than what I am currently using. So while I see your point, I don't disagree with what you said I certainly don't think that your statement ends the conversation.

It doesnt matter if anybody has heard them or not. You would need to get the speakers into your apartment and try them out. Nothing we say will tell you what they will sound like to your ears.