Fidelity Research cartridges
S4 headshell with which FR 4S was sold weights 14,5 g (or it was supplied with 19 g headshell???) So if roughly to evaluate FR-64S + 7f : 35-14,5+30=50,5 eff mass, g So if to go further and to compute desired resfreq [Hz] 9 - we are getting if to use 11 cu --> 28,4 g tonearm (Total)Effective Mass needed[gr] ; or roughly 35 grams tonearm eff mass needed in case of 8 desired resfreq [Hz] It seems that there are owners here in Audiogon of 64S + 7f or 7fz --> have you tested with test record lateral resonance frequency in your system? Could you please post here results? |
Anything between 8 - 15 Hz is ok, it is not necessary to have 8Hz resonance freq, more like 10-12Hz in theory. The FR-64s and 64FX are two flagship models designed by Ikeda-San, both are perfect match for his flagship cartridges such as FR-7f and FR-7fz. The only difference is the optional W-250 counterweight for 64fx arm which is a must have for use with FR-7 series of cartridges. There are long versions of both arms made. I am using FR-7fz on my 64fx with W-250 counterweight and N-60 nut. and i have not mounted yet my FR-64s with B-60 base and with IKEDA 9 III cartridge. However, my current favorite is Miyabi cartridge by Takeda-San on Lustre GST-801 tonearm. |
Dear chakster (only teasing) By FR-64 S there is an extra weight but lighter than standard; 170 g versus 250 g. I see that by FR-fx the case is the other way round. Probably to compensate for aluminum construction(grin). If I am well informed Takeda-san made 3 carts the best among them is called ''Miyabi Standard''. |
Would those three be the Ivory, MCA and Standard? I'd be interested to know if the cartridges Takeda built for other brands like Mark Levinson, Cello, Red Rose an Krell are identical to either of these three he produced under his own Miyabi banner. I own the Mark Levinson MLC-1, which as far as I know was the first cartridge he made (at least of the ones mentioned here). It is a magnificent performer and certainly one of the most musical cartridges I've ever had the pleasure to hear. But I can't help wondering if any of the later models are even better. Did anyone here ever compare them? |
I'm going to make a couple of armboards for my FR64. Can I just ask. is the 231.5 pivot to spindle length for all cartridges - or for the FR7? or do I need a hole mounted at 230mm? I'm curious because the FR64 instructions have the length at 230mm. On the issue of alignment - I currently have a clearaudio gauge which I understand is actually a different alignment to Bearwald, Lofgren et al. So what protractor would I get? mint? Wally? anything else? |
edgewear, Levinson actually discovered Takeda and ordered all ''his'' models by Takeda which he sold under his own name. Krell deed the same so, obviously, Levinson deed not own ''exclusive rights''. All those carts were Miyaby Standard. Thanks to Levinson Takeda become ,uh, known ''san''. He then started his own production with the name Miyaby. I am not familiar with chakster MCA nor the ''third kind'' which he produced later. |
parrotbee, I am not pedantic but one need to discriminate between FR-64 and FR-64 S.''S'' standing for ''steel''. FR-64 , to be recognised by round lateral balans, has aluminum ( arm) wands. The 231.5 pivot to spindle distance change original Stivenson geometry to Bearwald. The eff. length then become 246 mm. I ordered Mint tractor for my FR-64 S despite the fact that I can adjust eff. length with an (plastic!) caliper. |
@edgwear I’d be interested to know if the cartridges Takeda built for other brands like Mark Levinson, Cello, Red Rose an Krell are identical to either of these three he produced under his own Miyabi banner. Red Rose, Krell, Cello, Mark Levinson = Miyabi Standard. It is basically the same cartridge. There was one more incarnation of this model, i forgot the name. Miyabi MCA is different model from the same era, it is a vintage Miyabi handmade by Takeda San in Japan. This is obscure model ! Later he made Miyabi 47 exclussively for 47 Labs aka Sakura Systems, this model is different from earlier Miyabi MCA. I have only Miyabi Standard and Miyabi MCA in my collection. |
Thanks for sharing your observations! I assumed these were all technically identical to the Miyabi Standard. But I did notice that Krell had two different model numbers, which suggests there might have been some slight sonic differences. I also noticed that the shape of the body of the various Levinson brands is slightly different than the body of the Krell models and the Miyabi Standard. But I guess these were all just variations on the same theme. And what a theme...... As for other versions, I remember there was also one with a carbon fiber body made for Mobile Fidelity. I'd be curious to hear the influence of the different body material. One reviewer also mentions Klipsch as one of the incarnations, but this is incorrect. I've seen pictures of the 47Labs model, but that's a rather ugly plastic job compared to the others. The rare Ivory on the other hand looks gorgeous. Apparently this was the first Miyabi model. Probably the closest one can get to the sound of the Miyabi Standard from a new cartridge is the Fuuga, a concious attempt to resurrect Takeda's creation. |
Yes, it’s unforgivable to divert attention away from the FR-7, isn’t it? 😉 Getting back on the right - uh - track, changing the P2S distance of the FR-64S (or FX for that matter) when using the FR-7 is not a very good idea. With P2S distance at 230mm you get perfect Stevenson alignment (the stylus ’hits’ all three ’o’ points on the Feickert protractor). This is clearly what Ikeda had intended. Changing to 231.5mm changes the geometry of the tonearm to Baerwald, but it will not be possible to align the FR-7 to this geometry. At least not according to the Feickert protractor. With the fixed headshell arrangement of the FR-7 there’s no way to adjust this. I did try the Baerwald geometry with other (adjustable) cartridges, but I don’t hear the sonic benefits compared to Stevenson, so I decided to stick with Ikeda’s original specifications in all cases. |
edgewear, Being dogmatic is only ''allowed'' if you are strong believer in whatever religion . There are not many carts with fast headshells. The most can be adjusted in their headshell to whatever geometry ( aka eff. length). Even Dertonarm used his FR-7fz with Bearwald geometry. But I am not sure about Syntax about whom I don't dear to guess. |
So I can't wait till I find whatever about this ''mysterious'' Takeda '' Ivory'' cart. Next to your impressive cart collection you also have many carts pictures so I hope also Ivory? @nandric this is the only Miyabi Ivory picture i can find. Art Dudley has mentioned this model in his review from the late 90’s. BTW The Miyabi MCA looks completely different. @edgewear I did try the Baerwald geometry with other (adjustable) cartridges, but I don’t hear the sonic benefits compared to Stevenson, so I decided to stick with Ikeda’s original specifications in all cases. right, me too |
I don't believe Ikeda himself was as dogmatic as our friends chakster and edgewear. I am not sure about other FR- 7kinds but I owned this ''rare'' FR-702. According to Syntax this one is made for European market. I am also not sure about that but well that this one has shorter cantilever than the rest. In one of my contribution I even guessed that this was his ''evolution'' to cantileverless series 9 C. The number 702 is mysterious but not its looks. This cart looks exactly the same as other FR-7 kinds. |
Dear Nandric, Agnostic? Yes. Dogmatic? Hell no! But I do own 4 different FR-7 types, including the MC-702 which I regards as FR-7. I suppose this borders on ’religious’ or at least on being a strong believer. So I’m ’allowed’, thank goodness. 😋 On visual inspection the cantilever of the MC-702 doesn’t appear to be any shorter. This can be deceptive, but it is confirmed by the fact that it exactly hits the three ’o’ points of the Stevenson alignment on the Feickert protractor, just like the other three. I’m not at all suggesting Ikeda was ’dogmatic’, but he definitely was consistent. As for that elusive Miyabi Ivory, I’ve actually seen it for sale twice this past years. Once on eBay by a Russian seller and once here on Audiogon by grgaudio, as part of a Miyabi ’wholesale’ with all the incarnations except the MoFi Carbon. I was outbid on eBay and the asking price of grgaudio was too steep for me at that time, but the Ivory is still on my radar...... |
Dear endgewear, Ikeda produced at least 4 different tonearms. To know if he was consistent one should know geometry of each of them. I do remember ( vague) that some Russian cart producer uses ivory for his cart bodies . The ''theory'' seems to be based on acoustic properties of, say, ''bones'' . I think that I have some ''hammer'' mede from bone in my ear. But this is my limited medical knowledge. Besides I have seen so many different materials for the bodies , even naked (aka without body) kinds that I have no idea what or whom to believe(grin). Alas I sold all other FR-7 kinds except FR-7 fz. So no chance to check. Besides I moved on to those cantileverless kinds with 9 REX as my latest purchase. |
Dear @edgewear : """ but I don’t hear the sonic benefits compared to Stevenson, so I decided to stick with Ikeda’s original specifications..""" It’s weird, for say the least, that you can’t be abble/aware of the quality performance in cartridges running with Lôfgren A alignment and Stevenson alignment when the last one has way higher tracking distortion levels in all recorded LP surfce but the lAst 3mm. Something is wrong down there with your room/system resolution levels or even with your ears sensitivity or the overall analog rig and set up. R. |
@nandric FR-702. According to Syntax this one Probably refurbished sample if it’s shorter, just guessing @edgewear On visual inspection the cantilever of the MC-702 doesn’t appear to be any shorter. This can be deceptive, but it is confirmed by the fact that it exactly hits the three ’o’ points of the Stevenson alignment on the Feickert protractor, just like the other three. |
Dear chakster, With MM kinds we have had the luxury of Raul's investigations and recommendations. But those who prefer MC kinds were on their own. This was an much more expensive search. So the only way was to sell ''some'' in order to buy some other. That is why I kept FR-7f and sold all other. With Ikeda's series 9 cantiverless kinds the situation was even more difficult because of lack of information. Incomprehensible to my mind but Ikeda obviously deed not spend much money for P&R. So there are only few who are familiar with this series. No wonder Ikeda returned to the ''old kind'' in his latest 9 series. I own 9 TT but , alas, the FR-7fz and REX are in different league. |
Dear @edgewear: """
This is clearly what Ikeda had intended. """ unfortunatelly Ikeda was a follower of the ignorance of almost all tonearms japanese manufacturers whom choosed by ignorance Stevenson alignment, was like a wrong " fashion " in those times and additional to that fashion Ikeda made other mistake when left fixed the AZ alignment parameter too. R. |
IMO Ikeda took a as sample Empire tonearm and made it better. As I understood he have improved it further after Fidelity Research. So he was follower of Empire. As about geometry my Saec 308sx works with weird geometry. So to stick to geometry as the holy grail isn't easy path. I am till today feel embaressement about Saec due to bad geometry and yes I don't feel safe with it. Although it works so I will keep it despite bad math. |
@rauliruegas Dear @edgewear : """ but I don’t hear the sonic benefits compared to Stevenson, so I decided to stick with Ikeda’s original specifications.."""The reason @edgewear cannot hear the difference between Baerwald & Stevenson on his set up is because Ikedas original specifications are not Baerwald. @rauliruegas unfortunatelly Ikeda was a follower of the ignorance of almost all tonearms japanese manufacturers whom choosed by ignorance Stevenson alignment, was like a wrong " fashion " in those timesIgnorance is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. Ikeda did not use Stevenson. @rauliruegas additional to that fashion Ikeda made other mistake when left fixed the AZ alignment parameter too.Have no idea what you are trying to say here. I did ask Brenda, but even though she laid 3 eggs today, I still could not understand what point you are making. |
@nandric As you know I have an Ikeda Kiwame, having previously had the original Ikeda 9. I like them very much, they are quick and very open through the mids - easily the best cartridge for me back in the 80's. The Decca London Gold with Garrott Microscanner - very quick but the Ikeda at its best has more flesh and bones through the mids. I first had the Ikeda back in the 80's - at this time it was very rare outside of Japan and certainly no magazine had reviewed it. This is why it is relatively unknown. Rowland Complement was the only version known in the US. The main issue was variability, some tracked beautifully, others were difficult. Subsequently, my Dynavector Nova 13D which I have owned since the early 90's, has more resolution than the Ikeda particularly in the mids to upper mids and tracks beautifully since it was last upgraded by Dynavector Japan with Microridge stylus and other tuning. I dont have much experience with the new Ikedas, I have heard the Kai, preferred it to the Air Tight cartridge on the same TT. In some ways I think the Ikeda 9TS is more musical than the more expensive models - but thats only an impression from very brief listening in desparate systems. |
Ikeda-San passed away last year, find all his legendary cartridges here. There are 14 different versions of the cantileverless Ikeda 9 handmade by Isamu Ikeda himself. |
Thanks chakster, I had no idea that there are so many. Anyway I am glad to see that Ikeda admirer are growing (grin). As you can see even choosy Dover is one of those. While I decided not to buy any new cart anymore this ''damn Dover'' caused me to search for the Dynavector Nova 13 d. I found one in UK in NOS state and hope that is still available. |
Dear @dover : FR as Technics and other vintage japanese tonearm designs took Stevenson alignment as their sample alignment and seems to me that all of them did not matters to much ( in those times. ) about accuracy critical importance on the alignment set up parameters but FR took Stevenson too: The FR66 specs says: 16.8° as offset angle and ST is 16.84° and for the overhang FR says 12mm and ST 11.8. If you make the calculations for the FR 64 is more or less the same. FR choosed by ignorance Stevenson. The Ikeda IT-407and 345 are the same as the FR tonearms. From where came/comes your statement that they don't took as sample Stevenson alignment? AZ: ther FR headshell integrated cartridges has not an azymuth mechanism to change it when it needs. R. |
Thanks again dover, I nearly bought one increasing my MC collection to 41 samples (grin). Difficult to accept the situation with 40 carts while Nova 13 D seems to be the best but outside of my collection. At last I learned from the Dutch to be more careful by spending... They have an saying like: ''think before acting''. My translation was ''ask dover before buying''. |
@nandric I'm not so naive as to think there are not better cartridges out there of the new generation than what I have, but they come at a high cost. You have some pretty nice cartridges in your collection. There is as much to be gained from optimisng the synergy between arm/cartridge and cartridge/phono than there is trying to find the holy grail. |
Dear dover, ''the holly grail'' is metaphorical name for the relation of comparison. The schematics is : a is beter than b, b is better than c, etc.: R (a,b,c...n). Your statement was that (your) Nova 13 D sounds better than my REX and your own Kiwame. Because I do value your opinion I thought : ''Nandric you must try this 13 D!'' But my Dutch background advised: ''ask first'' before buying. Your ''refurbishing story about 13 D'' needed nearer explanation. So I made ''some savings'' by asking. BTW the Dutch have the reputation of being the best traders in the world (grin). |
1) Ikeda 9 EM @bukanova: ■ Price: 170,000 yen in 1986 ■ Power generation method: MC type ■ Output voltage: 0.2mV (5cm / sec 1kHz 45 °) ■ Tracking force: optimum 2.5g ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Own weight: 15.7 g (main body) 18.5 g (shell) ■ Replacement needle: Unit replacement ■ Release April 1986 2) Ikeda 9 CV: ■ Price 81,000 yen in 1984 ■ Power generation method: MC type ■ Output voltage: 0.18mV ■ Needle pressure: 2.0g optimum ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Weight: 14.5g ■ Exchange needle: unit exchange (64,800 yen) ■ Release July 1994 3) Ikeda 9 C III (this is what i have, mice came with Ikeda shell of the same color) ■ Price: 69,000 yen in 1989 ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Weight: 14.5 g
*There is also a model with a shell 4) Ikeda 9 REX @nandric: ■ Price 225,000 yen in 1993 ■ Own weight: 16g ■ Release October: 1993 |
Dear chakster, We in Europe are very fond about those ''Encyclopedia's''. They cover 3 m in one's library and testify about ''high ranking'' of the person involved. ''High ranking'' in academic sense. Lucky us we don't need to spend so much money on ''books''. We have chakster as our ''encyclopedia''. Obviously Russian internet should not be underestimated. My brother Don got the other model with a shell called ''Supremo'' but without stylus. However Don also owns Decca and knew that the person by ''Expert stylus'' is a good friend with the new owner of Decca. So his speculation was that both will figure out how to fix his Supremo. They deed so Don got his Supremo much cheaper than Nandric his Rex. Both carts are bought in Japan . I hate their intermediary. All of them charge fees for totally unknown services... |
