I want to make it clear for myself: What a hell is "Refined Contact Needle" of the Fidelity-Research FR-7F (made in 1980) ? According to the manual for FR-7F: "A unique refined contact needle which specially polished a solid 0.15 mm square solid diamond is adopted as a needle tip. The refined contact needle is a new system that combines the advantages of the line contact needle and the merit of the elliptical needle, making it less susceptible to adverse effects (noise etc.) due to warping of the disk and dust of the sound groove. Also, scratch noise and surface noise are extremely low, so you can obtain playback sound with high clarity and no fatigue."
So the stylus of the Fidelity-Research FR-7F is not conical, but some sort of Line Contact in stock condition ? If it's not conical, i wonder why @halcro said it's conical and even re-tipped his sample with Axel (to have Line Contact) ? |
@halcro Vinyl Engine info is not relevant, simply because the data for the first FR-7 and second FR-7F mixed up. In their wrong database FR-7 for some reason has Line Contact 0.3 x 3mil, but the next to it FR-7F has Spherical 0.65mil which is not true at least for the first FR-7 from 1978. Axel just glued a new Line Contact stylus on original cantilever ? @nandric You said Axel is retired, do you mean retired from re-tipping business now ? @rauliruegas All i know is that FR-7F has square shank nude diamond of 0.15mm cross section, but i don't know the size of the tip. It would be nice to find out relevant info about it (original manual for example). Many times i saw them for sale and each time sellers claimed line contact for FR-7F. |
@nandric sad news about Axel, hope he’ll be ok
@rauliruegas exactly ("dead of alive", i like that), i have sold some very rare records to cover my expenses on those god damn cartridges, because so many people swear they are so good and i need to hear it myself.
The next quest is phono stage for them, still got my ZYX Pre-Preamp CPP-1 (headamp), but it was designed for 0.24 mV ZYX.
My Lundahl transformers in my WLM Phonata Reference MM/MC phono stage are not designed to handge so low output (but maybe i can just replace the transformers inside this stage myself). This product disappeared from the market before it was widely released, i got demo unit from the first run, because the WLM (Wien Loudspeaker Manufaktur) closed their business.
And my newest JLTi phono stage with high gain can handle 0.22mV but probably still need more gain for carts like Ortofon MC2000, FR-7f and Fidelity-Reasearch PMC-3. Maybe Joe Rassmusen of JLTi can modify his phono stage for more gain option... |
Currently runnin my Fidelity-Research PMC-3 with zyx cpp-1 (125ohm, additional 26db gain) headamp paired with JLTi 47k MM input with very good result. This compo sound better than another mm phono stage with build-in suts, also better than JLTi relatively high gain MC input. So this god damn zyx pre-preamp is a good device, i have not used it for a long time. The nest device for comparison will be Luxman
8030
silver SUT for low impedance FR-7f. |
Raul is right, the FR-7Fc has 0.65mm conical stylus tip according to the answer from the two japanese sellers i’ve been chatted with. Now i am a proud owner of the fully original Fidelity-Research FR-7fz (LineContact tip), thanks @nandric who motivated me to buy it and @syntax who helped me with some info too. It’s hard to imagine, but i bought it from the local guy in my town and the price was nice (i had to be quick). Now i’m trying to find documentations for this model to make sure about the specs. There is a link with the specs, i hope this is correct specs. Fidelity-Research FR-7fz specs: ■ Price in 1984 was 80,000 yen ■ Power generation method: MC type ■ Output voltage: 0.24 mV (5 cm / sec 45 °) ■ Needle pressure: 2.0 ~ 3.0g ■ Load resistance: 5 Ω ■ Playback frequency: 10 - 45,000 Hz ■ Channel separation: 20 dB / 1 kHz ■ Channel balance: 1 dB / 1 kHz ■ Compliance: 7 × 10 - 6 cm / dyne ■ Tip: contact type ■ Weight: 30g ■ Exchange needle unit replacement: (60,000 yen) ■ Release: 1984 ■ End of sale: 1989 ■ Shell integrated type. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and for comparison Fidelity-Research FR-7f specs: ■ Price in 1980 was 77,000 yen ■ Power generation method: MC type cartridge ■ Output voltage: 0.15 mV (3.54 cm / sec., 45 °) ■ Output voltage: 0.2 mV (5 cm / sec., 45 °) ■ Output power: 2 × 10 -8 W (5 cm / sec 45 °) ■ Needle pressure: 2 g to 3 g ■ Load impedance: 3 Ω ■ Coil impedance: 2 Ω ■ Playback frequency: 10 Hz to 45 kHz ■ Channel separation: 28 dB (1 kHz) ■ Channel balance: 1 dB (1 kHz) ■ Compliance: 7 × 10 -6 cm / dyne (100 Hz, 20 ° C.) ■ Tip: 0.15 mm square Refined contact, Solid Diamond needle ■ Weight: 30 g ■ Exchange needle unit replacement: (¥ 54,000) |
It was hard to find that topic, but to make it easier for every FR user i will copy his " mini-shootout: SPU, Koetsu, FR, Ikeda" right here: "Finally had a chance to do a shootout of some of my MC cartridges. We compared 3 SPU’s (Silver Meister GM, Gold GM, Royal GM), Ikeda 9CIII (cantileverless), Fidelity Research FR7fz, Koetsu Onyx Platinum and Koetsu Coralstone Platinum. All cartridges except the Koetsu Coralstone Plt was bought used and hence runned-in. The cartridges were tested on my friend Kel’s system (Art Audio Carissa 845 amps, AR LS27 pre, Hagerman Trumpet phonostage + Cinemag Blue SUT, Hagerman Bugle fully modded + Hashimoto HM-7 SUT and Kudos speakers). We used 2 TT’s: Garrard 401 with Schick 12" arm and a Garrard 301 with Ikeda IT407 12" arm. Both Garrards have upgraded plinths. Most of the comparison was finally done with the Garrard 301/Ikeda combo. We used different headshells for the Ikeda 9CIII (Ikeda Rhodium headshell/cheap leads), Koetsu Onyx Plt (Yamamoto Ebony/Ortofon Silver leads) and Koetsu Coralstone Plt (Sumiko headshell/Ikeda Hybrid Cu leads). We started with the SPU’s. Amongst the 3 SPU, the consensus was that the SPU Gold was the best. It was between the Silver Meister which has more treble extension and the Royal which was the most laid back. The Royal have all the SPU attributes but has detail, refinement, soundstage, smoothness and musicality but more punch and dynamics than the Royal and without some of the leading edge and treble extension of the Silver Meister. Mind you, all 3 had a similar SPU house sound. We then tried the FR7fz which sounded more balance, more PRAT than the SPU’s while remaining smooth, warm, detailed and musical. 2 of our group (50%) liked the FR7fz the best. We then tried the Ikeda 9CIII which was very difficult to setup. We initially tried Ikeda’s silver headshell leads but could not get one channel to work and finally had to settle for some basic cheap leads (unknown conductor) which did reduce the sonics somewhat. But we did hear what cantileverless brings to the party. A very direct, dynamic, detail, good micro and macrodynamics, very good PART. It does have a similar house sound like the FR7fz. But probably let down by the cheap leads we had to use. All favoured the FR7f over the Ikeda9CIII as a result. But it certainly wetted my appetite to try a higher end and later model Ikeda 9 REX or MUSA. Finally, we tried the Koetsu’s. We were not expecting much. We thought we would get good mids but soft bass and treble extension. We tried the Onyx Plt and we were shocked. This is not the typical Koetsu wood body sound. Great dynamic and realistic bass. Kel and I thought it had the best bass of all. Very palpable mids. Seems like the musicians are there in the room. Dynamic, detail, airy and very musical. And mind you, my Koetsu Onyx Plt has a hairline crack on the body. I bought it that way at a low price. This was the only way I could afford a stone body Koetsu (or so I thought). In fact, the sound was so good that I then bought a new Coralstone Plt so that we can put it into the shootout. We then tried the Coralstone Plt. It was even better than the Onyx Plt even though it was brand new. More bass, more dynamics, more musical than the Onyx. And strangely more gain than the Onyx. So it could be something to do with the Onyx’s cracked body. We ran it in for a few more days. We did hear some sonic changes in the Koetsu Coralstone as it was running in, so it was obviously not performing at its best. I was told by the dealer that it needed about 100 hours of run-in. In the end, we had 2 members prefer the FR7fz and 2 others preferring the Koetsu Coralstone Platinum. Obviously this is not a formal review, not same headsells etc, but just a quick shootout over 3 days to get a flavor of these cartridges. A key take away is that these vintage cartridges SPU Gold, FR7fz and Ikeda 9CIII have a lot to offer and surprised us all. Kel has a DPS turntable/arm with Transfiguration Proteus cartridge as his reference TT. I would say that all the cartridges gave the DPS/Proteus combo a good run for the money. As for me, the Coralstone Platinum is my new reference. " - @ddriveman (
09-28-2014 ) |
@ddriveman nice, that 85th Anniversary has the most attractive look of all SPU, the finishing is superb.
So the damper of your Technics stylus for EPC100 mk4 was fine? |
Long time ago i’ve come across this page in japanese, revisited it last week i realized the price for Fr-7fc is the highest among all of them (100 000 Yen in 1981), even higher than FR-7fz with refined LineContact tip (80 000 Yen in 1981) for some reason. But the "fc" has a conical tip, what is the reason for higher price? |
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This month i have PMC-3 mounted on Lustre GST-801 tonearm on FR RS-141 headshell with FR leadwires (Baerwald geometry) ... and Ortofon MC-2000 on its dedicated headshell with silver lead wires on Sony PUA-7 tonearm. Both on the same Luxman PD-444 turntable, both arms connected to Gold Note PH-10 phono stage with Signal Cable Silver Resolution phono cables (Xhadow RCA). It’s so cool that PH-10 inputs can be adjusted for two MC cartridges (like no other phono stage) !
Sony tonearm geometry is not Stevenson or Baerwald, it’s something Sony prodived with its own protractor that comes with the arm.
I use Baerwald for Lustre GST-801 with FR PMC-3 cartridge.
Two different cartridges, two different sound signature. Ortofon MC-2000 still have some sort of background noise which sounds like tape hiss when the music is off (+6db on Gold Note), but when the music is on this cartridge is very special.
Fidelity-Research PMC-3 on Lustre GST-801 is dead quiet with Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10. On this particular tonearm and with FR-141 headshell this cartridge is much better than on Sony PUA-7. Very interesting. This cartridge is not so expensive as the ortofon MC-2000 and less problematic with gain. But i really like the sound signature of its Air-Core.
P.S. I must say i’ve never had a problem with Stevenson geometry and my FR-7fz sound is amazing on FR-64fx tonearm. I have no idea why FR-7 owners should worry about Stevenson geometry on FR tonearms. Ikeda designed them to be used with Stevenson. Cartridge/tonearm designer’s opinion is much more important for me. First thing to do is to follow the original instructions like it supposed to be.
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Recently discovered this vintage Fidelity-Research catalog from the 80’s. This is the best illustration of LOMC cartridges designed by Isamu Ikeda for Fidelity-Research. page with tonearms: FR-64fx, FR-64s, FR-66fx page with SUTs, headshells like RS-141, N-60 nut, W-250 counterweight and accessories ... page with Cartridges: FR-7fz, FR-7f, FR-7, PMC-3, FR-2, FR-1 mk3, FR-1 mk2, PMC-1 page with top of the line cartridges in order from the best models to lower models: FR-7fz, FR-7f, FR-7, PMC-3, FR-2, FR-1 mk3, FR-1 mk2, PMC-1 .... including MM models too. Looking at the specs for each cartridge in the catalog you see that PMC-3 is the closest to FR-7 series. But the PMC-3 has higher impedance, lower tracking force, lighter mass, higher compliance. There is a tiny difference in frequency response only at high register, but i can assure you that the bass is tight and the highs are crystal clear. Fidelity-Research PMC-3 has one serious advantage compared to the FR-7 series: the PMC-3 can be mounted on modern mid mass tonearms (on conventionel headshell). Fidelity-Research PMC-3 has its unique Air-Core Coil and Refined "Vital" Contact Line stylus. So the PMC-3 is more user friendly on wider range of tonearms than FR-7 series. |
Just curious what Ikeda fans thinking about those last FR cartridges designed by Ozwa Yasuo (founder of Shelter) in the 80's ? "Born in Tokyo. He was fascinated from boyhood by the timbre of music instruments and started self-designing audio products to realize high fidelity sound reproduction. He designed many tube amplifiers when he was in junior high school age, and majored in electrical engineering at the university with aiming an amplifier designer, but he found the charm of analog pickup which can practice the whole design of sound reproduction that he imagines. In 1982 he joined Fidelity Research (FR) and started its career as a phono cartridge designer. He participated to design MC phono cartridges of MCX-3, MCX-5 and other products during his work at FR. He then became independent in 1986 to establish Shelter, thereafter he has been designing and developing the MC phono cartridge throughout his life." |
was it pre-amp and step up? if so which pre-amp? It’s an interesting question, probably the SUT was connected to those big oldschool receivers (MM input), there are many of them. I’m not expert in vintage phono stages, but something like Pioneer Exclussive system was very expensive in the 80’s, looks cute and still popular. The headamp for MC in "Z system" looks like this. Preamp with MM input is C-Z1. And the power amps (monoblocks) from this series is here. Kind of a cute little system for a very high price @parrotbee I think in the USA at that time all those SUTs were connected to big and expensive Levinson and Krell preamps. If you will look at the FR catalof from the 80's you will see only this stuff. |
ohh, i see
not sure why we discuss benz in Fidelity Research thread ?
Completely different cartridge!
Yes i do believe in the compliance figure given @100Hz
It will be about 11 cu @ 10Hz which is pretty low compliance
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@bukanona if tonearm is FR64 S version FR-7f will be better match.
in case of FR 64 fx both are good match. What do you mean? Could you explain in details why do you think one FR tonearm is better for certain FR-7 series cartridge than another ? For FR-7f or 7fz we must have optional W-250 counterweight for 64fx toneam for optimal performance in terms of tonearm effective mass. As you can see in this catalog the compliance of both FR-7f and FR-7fz is the same, tracking force is the same too. The 64s has a higher effective mass and made of steel while the 64fx has lighter effective mass and with default (smaller) counterweight was designed for cartridges like PMC-3 for use on conventional headshell, or any other cartridges with higher compliance and lighter weight. |
Anything between 8 - 15 Hz is ok, it is not necessary to have 8Hz resonance freq, more like 10-12Hz in theory.
The FR-64s and 64FX are two flagship models designed by Ikeda-San, both are perfect match for his flagship cartridges such as FR-7f and FR-7fz. The only difference is the optional W-250 counterweight for 64fx arm which is a must have for use with FR-7 series of cartridges.
There are long versions of both arms made.
I am using FR-7fz on my 64fx with W-250 counterweight and N-60 nut.
and i have not mounted yet my FR-64s with B-60 base and with IKEDA 9 III cartridge.
However, my current favorite is Miyabi cartridge by Takeda-San on Lustre GST-801 tonearm. |
If I am well informed Takeda-san made 3 carts the
best among them is called ''Miyabi Standard''.
I have it too, but did not tried yet as my Miyabi MCA is a stunning performer. |
@edgwear I’d be interested to know if the cartridges Takeda built for other brands like Mark Levinson, Cello, Red Rose an Krell are identical to either of these three he produced under his own Miyabi banner.
I own the Mark Levinson MLC-1, which as far as I know was the first cartridge he made (at least of the ones mentioned here). It is a magnificent performer and certainly one of the most musical cartridges I’ve ever had the pleasure to hear. But I can’t help wondering if any of the later models are even better. Did anyone here ever compare them? Red Rose, Krell, Cello, Mark Levinson = Miyabi Standard. It is basically the same cartridge. There was one more incarnation of this model, i forgot the name. Miyabi MCA is different model from the same era, it is a vintage Miyabi handmade by Takeda San in Japan. This is obscure model ! Later he made Miyabi 47 exclussively for 47 Labs aka Sakura Systems, this model is different from earlier Miyabi MCA. I have only Miyabi Standard and Miyabi MCA in my collection. |
I knew you will say it, haha
sorry |
So I can't wait till I find whatever about this ''mysterious'' Takeda '' Ivory'' cart. Next to your impressive cart collection you also have many carts pictures so I hope also Ivory?
@nandric this is the only Miyabi Ivory picture i can find. Art Dudley has mentioned this model in his review from the late 90’s. BTW The Miyabi MCA looks completely different. @edgewear I did try the Baerwald geometry with other (adjustable) cartridges, but I don’t hear the sonic benefits compared to Stevenson, so I decided to stick with Ikeda’s original specifications in all cases. right, me too |
@nandric FR-702. According to Syntax this one
is made for European market. I am also not sure about that but
well that this one has shorter cantilever than the rest. Probably refurbished sample if it’s shorter, just guessing @edgewear On visual inspection the cantilever of the MC-702 doesn’t appear to be any shorter. This can be deceptive, but it is confirmed by the fact that it exactly hits the three ’o’ points of the Stevenson alignment on the Feickert protractor, just like the other three. |
Ikeda-San passed away last year, find all his legendary cartridges here. There are 14 different versions of the cantileverless Ikeda 9 handmade by Isamu Ikeda himself. |
Was it problematic to find fully working original sample?
I use only original cartridges, all my FR and Ikeda are like new, fully original. I wouldn't do any rebuild of any special cartridges handcrafted by masters like Ikeda. I would rather find another original sample in mint condition if something wrong with those carts, but luckily mine are good.
If there anyone else who will rate Miyabi cartridges over FR-7f and Fz ? |
1) Ikeda 9 EM @bukanova: ■ Price: 170,000 yen in 1986 ■ Power generation method: MC type ■ Output voltage: 0.2mV (5cm / sec 1kHz 45 °) ■ Tracking force: optimum 2.5g ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Own weight: 15.7 g (main body) 18.5 g (shell) ■ Replacement needle: Unit replacement ■ Release April 1986 2) Ikeda 9 CV: ■ Price 81,000 yen in 1984 ■ Power generation method: MC type ■ Output voltage: 0.18mV ■ Needle pressure: 2.0g optimum ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Weight: 14.5g ■ Exchange needle: unit exchange (64,800 yen) ■ Release July 1994 3) Ikeda 9 C III (this is what i have, mice came with Ikeda shell of the same color) ■ Price: 69,000 yen in 1989
■ Power generation method: MC type
■ Output voltage: 0.17mV
■
Tracking force:
optimal 2.0g ■ Load resistance: 3Ω ■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Weight: 14.5 g
■ Replacement needle: Unit replacement
■ Release: October 1989
Direct coupling power generation mechanism without cantilever.
*There is also a model with a shell
4) Ikeda 9 REX @nandric: ■ Price 225,000 yen in 1993
■ Power generation method: MC type
■ Output voltage: 0.18mV (5cm / sec 1kHz 45 °)
■
Tracking force:
optimum 1.5g
■ Load resistance: 3Ω
■ Needle tip: Special ellipse ■ Own weight: 16g ■ Release October: 1993
*There is also a model with a shell (230,000 yen)
|
@bukanova interesting, i know Nandric blame me, but my Ikeda 9 III still on the shelf along with FR64s + b60. I like the convenience of conventional cartridges like the FR7fz and Miyabi. It seems like cantileverless Ikeda is not so convenient? |
You should chose some other hobby . Say stamp collection (grin).
I already collect records |
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But he may think that provided the cart
is new or NOS it will function for the rest of his life.
No, i don't think there is any cart in my collection that i will use for the rest of my life, still searching for "my sound" and this is the reason to try so many. Each MC i compare to my best MM. |
The only way to understand is actually HEAR/USE the cartridges. I don’t want to change/swap cartridge or toneam utill i understand the sound character, the reason why some carts waiting in line. It’s the process, time consumming. I am stuck with Miyabi because it’s a pure pleasure to listen to it, so nice that i don’t even want to change anything. On the right side last night there was my Glanz 61 on EPA-100 and it was also great, but different. |
IMO if it’s good cartridge MC has to be superior. Don’t get me wrong - it’s my opinion, it’s subjective to my hearing apparatus :) It depends on the choice of MM/MI, i don’t use ordinary MM cartridges at all, after a years on audiogon i realized that some people never tried a good MM and don’t know about certain models. I’ve mentioned convenience earlier, this is the goal of MM (when we have many spare styli with different profiles, different cantilevers). Actually MM/MI can be very good even compared to top MC. But anyway, i like both types (MM and MC) and it’s interesting. In my system i have two identical turntables with 2 tonearms on each turntable, so i can compare everything. FR-64fx with N60 and FR 7fz cartridge is always there in use. I do not listen to classical music as Nandric, jazz, funk and soul from the 60s/70s is what i listen to (mostly). |
However those ’’old scold’’ regarded your kind
of music as noise not as music. Comparing funk with, say, Bach
is a kind of sacrilege. No wonder you like MM kinds (grin). @nandric Impressionism in Art was considered as rubbish in the beginning, so what? Different strokes for different folks. I was working in Saint Petersburg Philharmonia for half year and was listening to classical music live on stage, not on the records. This is one of the best place for classical music in Russia. But my musical taste is different than yours, what’s the problem? My age is also way different. For me and for many others the 70’s is probably the best period of time for music in many genres, no matter is it rock (which i don’t like) or jazz-funk and soul. If i stuck in 20th century then where you’re, in the 18th century? P.S. I like both MM and MC cartridges, but i do not listen to classical music at all, sorry. I have Bach LP, local pressing from the 60's, never played it, the cover looks very nice :) |
Discovered an interesting sample of the Fidelity-Research FR-7f
The cartridge body is silver color just like older FR-7, but the model is FR-7F (which is normally black).
Silver body version of the FR-7f must be rare, probably from the first bunch with low serial numbers.
The difference is only color (since visually it's FR-7f) ?
Anyone ? |
Diggin’ deeper in Fidelity-Research products from the past I finally received the latest models. It’s MCX-3 designed by Ozawa-San for FR in the 80s, later in 86 Ozawa established Shelter. Look at the images of my NOS MCX-3 This New Old Stock sample has been stored for over 30 years and I’m a second owner. Opened the box yesterday, what a beauty! Some interesting facts from his webside: “Born in Tokyo Ozawa-San was fascinated from boyhood by the timbre of music instruments and started self-designing audio products to realize high fidelity sound reproduction. He designed many tube amplifiers when he was in junior high school age, and majored in electrical engineering at the university with aiming an amplifier designer, but he found the charm of analog pickup which can practice the whole design of sound reproduction that he imagines. In 1982 he joined Fidelity Research (FR) and started his career as a phono cartridge designer. He participated to design MC phono cartridges of MCX-3, MCX-5 and other products during his work at FIdelity-Research.” Few month ago I bought my first Shelter, it’s model 5000. Same style of packaging, very nice display case (similar to PMC-3, but bigger). So many great cartridges in the vaults now. I’m excited |
