Hi Charlie, Welcome by the FR-7 club. For all second hand FR components check: www.hifishark.com |
Hi Charlie, I would like to extend my ''welcome'' to Ikeda 9, the cantileverless kind. My first impression is that this cart is at least as good as FR-7fz which I consider as the best from the 7 series. To me this means ''the best ever''. The proviso is of course the ''subjective impression''. But I am very much surprised by the fact that there is hardly any info about this cart. Considering the ''fuss'' about Decca even more strange. Assuming the right phono-pre and tonearm (aka FR-64/66) one can end his search for ''the best'' and spend his time listening to the music with those two carts. Anyway this is my (subjective) opinion. I am of course curious if there are others with Ikeda 9 experience? |
Addition. Sorry ddriveman I forget your ''short shoot-out...'' I hope you deed find the right headshell-wire for your Ikeda 9? My question is if your Coralstone is still your favourite? |
Chakster, That is how ''general opinion'' works. One does not believe his own eye in order to follow the so called ''custom''. I looked many times to my sample and assumed that a former owner retipped the original ''conical'' with ''line contact'' stylus. However in contradistinction to you I was more intriqued with the question why Mitch Cotter has chosen FR-7f for his celebrated TT and even made his own SUT for the precious? But my wondering was based on two assumptions which may be not true. The first was the conical stylus and the second that FR-7fz sounds much better. Besides the ''fz''' has more ''modern'' stylus and has more admirer than the ''f''. I obviously followed the convention by which ''more admirers'' means that they are right in the sense of majority rule (grin). I consider my FR-7fz as one of my best carts, second to none, and still wonder how this can be possible with a cart from the 80is? BTW Dertonarm advised me 10 years ago to try one of those FR-7 kinds but I was very reluctant to do so because I thought that I would need separte SUT for each of my MC carts (+40). When I got my Denon AU-S1 which covers 2-40 Ohms I bought more Ikeda's carts instead of SUT's.
r,
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Hi Chakster, Yes Axel retired and sold his ''shop'' to his assistent. He got some curious illness (not a stroke) and lost command of his left hand. But he was already around 70 so deserved retirement. I moved to Expert Stylus in UK while British GBP lost value in relation to euro like dollar deed (grin). Those who predicted the end of euro are very silent now. |
Dear chakster, I am not the right person to give you advice about phono-pres but I own two highly regarded samples: Basis Exclusive (gold) with battery power supplay and Klyne 7 PX 3.5 which is praised even by Raul . That is to say one of the few next to his own (grin). Considering your extended interest and not so extended means I would recommend Klyne which can be obtained with modest means. Typical pre for your experimetal nature because the pre has 4 amplification stages (from 40 till 68 dB) as well ''high frequency contour'' by which each MC cart can be corrected in its resonance region . Besides there are loading recommendatios by which 47 K plays important role. For this pre you should check regular the German HIFI market (aka ''audio-markt.de'').
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The ''paradox'', the more one read the more one forget. The less one read the less one forget... I have read this thread at least 5 time but discovered many valuable contribution by my present reading. I obviously forget what Dertonarm, Carr and other has to say. I hope that chakster will be as impressed with his FR-7f as I was with my first FR-7. |
Dear chakster, There is a thread or post written by ddriveman by the title ''mimi shout out....'' in which he describes comparison between 5(?) MC carts done with 3 friends. In short (grin) you will be pleased with the outcome of ''your contender'' : ex aequo Koetsu Coral stone and FR-7fz. |
Dear ddriveman, I have read and reread your ''mini-shootout'' many times. The reason is ''obvious''. It is very satisfying to see confirmation of our own opinion or judgment. In addition the price comparison between the winners made me feel as a very smart person (grin). I noticed the mentioning of Ikeda 9 C, mk III which was, alas, not possible to adjust optimal during the test. But the ''injustice'' done to the ''poor thing'' is corrected by your addendum. However you deed not vote for the FR-7fz as equal to your (beloved?) Coral stone so your praise of the 9C,mk III above the FR-7 FZ is not very convincing. I myself have no problem at all to love Maria equal to Silvia despite their different qualities. In this sense I love my FZ equal to my C9,mk II. However i just got the REX. The latest of Ikeda's cantileverless kinds. So I fall in love as never before and forget Maria as well Silvia. I seem to agree with ''American Marx'': ''If you don't like my principle I have other''...
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Dear edgewear, My question was why the most Japanese tonearms producer followed Stevenson geometry. As you probably know according to Japanese culture it is ''not done'' to deviate from , say, national customs. Then there is this curious FR-702 with assumption that this ''model'' is made for European market. But this cart has shorter cantilever than other from the FR-7 series. I even assume that experiments with shorter cantilever was a kind of evolution to the cantileverless kinds. It may be also the case that Ikeda deed not consider tonearm geometry as very important issue. Nobody has to my knowledge claimed to hear something special by whatever ''0'' points by those tractors. BTW I own about 3000 classical records but only few of them have the ''inner groove'' near the spindle. This may be the reason for the ''bad reputation'' of Stevenson (?).
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Ikeda's tonearm geometry versus FR-7 series cartridges. Nobody ever explained why the most Japanese tonearms followed Stivenson geometry. As is well known(?) the FR 64/66 as well the new Ikeda 's can be adjusted to Bearwald by changing the spindle- pivot distance to 231,5 mm with 246 mm effective length. But then the integrated headshell by FR-7 kinds does not provide for ''effective length'' change. Some Japanese MM carts with integrated headshells do have such provision. As my comrade Don informed me about his Supremo cantileverless kind also has such provision by its integrated headshell. At ''the end'' of the headshell there are two small screws by which one can move the stylus forward and back for the needed distance. My FR-7 fz sample was modify by Van den Hul to Bearwald geometry in addition to boron cantilever and Van den Hul (aka ''Geiger'') stylus. |
@edgewear, You changed my ''point'' about ''0'' points on the record radius. I stated that nobody has claimed to have heard something special by those ''0'' points: ''so it seems that some people do hear something special when the ''0'' points are set to Bearwald''. This however is different statement. Bearwald geometry means that other radius on the record is optimal then Stevenson. Stevenson nearer to the spindle , Bearwald across the radius. Your statement is about relation between the (two) points which determine the geometry my about individual points regardless of the geometry.
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I think that many prefer FR-7 fz above FR-7f. However FR-7f is more easy to find. Considering its ''modest price'' you are very lucky to get ''brand new LP-mr'' for similar price. Lucky b...
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parrotbee, If you mean with ''brand new Benz LP-S the latest version with micro ridge stylus and bronze insert (16,5 g) then LP-S.
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Confusion about effective mass by FR-64 s is caused by assumption of ''given eff. mass''. But eff. mass depends from the used headshell as well the used counterweight. Not to mention carts weight.
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Dear chakster (only teasing) By FR-64 S there is an extra weight but lighter than standard; 170 g versus 250 g. I see that by FR-fx the case is the other way round. Probably to compensate for aluminum construction(grin). If I am well informed Takeda-san made 3 carts the best among them is called ''Miyabi Standard''.
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Dear chakster, Are you some kind of masochist? How can you resist to try out your Miyabi standard AND Ikeda 9. III?
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parrotbee, I am not pedantic but one need to discriminate between FR-64 and FR-64 S.''S'' standing for ''steel''. FR-64 , to be recognised by round lateral balans, has aluminum ( arm) wands. The 231.5 pivot to spindle distance change original Stivenson geometry to Bearwald. The eff. length then become 246 mm. I ordered Mint tractor for my FR-64 S despite the fact that I can adjust eff. length with an (plastic!) caliper.
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edgewear, Levinson actually discovered Takeda and ordered all ''his'' models by Takeda which he sold under his own name. Krell deed the same so, obviously, Levinson deed not own ''exclusive rights''. All those carts were Miyaby Standard. Thanks to Levinson Takeda become ,uh, known ''san''. He then started his own production with the name Miyaby. I am not familiar with chakster MCA nor the ''third kind'' which he produced later.
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Dear chakster, I am not as patient as you are . So I can't wait till I find whatever about this ''mysterious'' Takeda '' Ivory'' cart. Next to your impressive cart collection you also have many carts pictures so I hope also Ivory?
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edgewear, Being dogmatic is only ''allowed'' if you are strong believer in whatever religion . There are not many carts with fast headshells. The most can be adjusted in their headshell to whatever geometry ( aka eff. length). Even Dertonarm used his FR-7fz with Bearwald geometry. But I am not sure about Syntax about whom I don't dear to guess.
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I don't believe Ikeda himself was as dogmatic as our friends chakster and edgewear. I am not sure about other FR- 7kinds but I owned this ''rare'' FR-702. According to Syntax this one is made for European market. I am also not sure about that but well that this one has shorter cantilever than the rest. In one of my contribution I even guessed that this was his ''evolution'' to cantileverless series 9 C. The number 702 is mysterious but not its looks. This cart looks exactly the same as other FR-7 kinds.
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Dear endgewear, Ikeda produced at least 4 different tonearms. To know if he was consistent one should know geometry of each of them. I do remember ( vague) that some Russian cart producer uses ivory for his cart bodies . The ''theory'' seems to be based on acoustic properties of, say, ''bones'' . I think that I have some ''hammer'' mede from bone in my ear. But this is my limited medical knowledge. Besides I have seen so many different materials for the bodies , even naked (aka without body) kinds that I have no idea what or whom to believe(grin). Alas I sold all other FR-7 kinds except FR-7 fz. So no chance to check. Besides I moved on to those cantileverless kinds with 9 REX as my latest purchase.
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Dear bukanonas, Probably because mammoth tusk are found in Russia I confused the producers (grin). I love FR-fz as much as the 9 REX. The REX is latest in the series 9 cantileverless kinds with unbelievable compliance. Recommended VTF 1.5 g. I use 1.7 g. Wish you luck with 9EM.
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Dear chakster, With MM kinds we have had the luxury of Raul's investigations and recommendations. But those who prefer MC kinds were on their own. This was an much more expensive search. So the only way was to sell ''some'' in order to buy some other. That is why I kept FR-7f and sold all other. With Ikeda's series 9 cantiverless kinds the situation was even more difficult because of lack of information. Incomprehensible to my mind but Ikeda obviously deed not spend much money for P&R. So there are only few who are familiar with this series. No wonder Ikeda returned to the ''old kind'' in his latest 9 series. I own 9 TT but , alas, the FR-7fz and REX are in different league.
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Thanks dover, Do you mean that the ''new owners'' produced this new ''9 series carts''? So I can still admire our ''old Ikeda'' (grin). BTW what is your opinion about those ''cantileverless kinds''? I am wondering why those Decca admirer never discovered this MC kind of dynamic wonder?
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Thanks chakster, I had no idea that there are so many. Anyway I am glad to see that Ikeda admirer are growing (grin). As you can see even choosy Dover is one of those. While I decided not to buy any new cart anymore this ''damn Dover'' caused me to search for the Dynavector Nova 13 d. I found one in UK in NOS state and hope that is still available.
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Dear dover, Does your praise reg. Dynavector Nova 13 d apply for 13 d in general or for your by Dyna ''refurbished'' sample in particular? Before I buy one more cart I would like to know.
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Thanks again dover, I nearly bought one increasing my MC collection to 41 samples (grin). Difficult to accept the situation with 40 carts while Nova 13 D seems to be the best but outside of my collection. At last I learned from the Dutch to be more careful by spending... They have an saying like: ''think before acting''. My translation was ''ask dover before buying''.
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Dear dover, ''the holly grail'' is metaphorical name for the relation of comparison. The schematics is : a is beter than b, b is better than c, etc.: R (a,b,c...n). Your statement was that (your) Nova 13 D sounds better than my REX and your own Kiwame. Because I do value your opinion I thought : ''Nandric you must try this 13 D!'' But my Dutch background advised: ''ask first'' before buying. Your ''refurbishing story about 13 D'' needed nearer explanation. So I made ''some savings'' by asking. BTW the Dutch have the reputation of being the best traders in the world (grin).
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@bukanona, My friend Don Griffiths has one FR-7f for sell (dgriffiths et gmail dot com). What do you mean with ''different suspension''? All cantileverless kinds have the same suspension. You may mean compliance? My Rex can be used with 1.5 g VTF the other version 2.5 -3 g.
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Dear chakster, We in Europe are very fond about those ''Encyclopedia's''. They cover 3 m in one's library and testify about ''high ranking'' of the person involved. ''High ranking'' in academic sense. Lucky us we don't need to spend so much money on ''books''. We have chakster as our ''encyclopedia''. Obviously Russian internet should not be underestimated. My brother Don got the other model with a shell called ''Supremo'' but without stylus. However Don also owns Decca and knew that the person by ''Expert stylus'' is a good friend with the new owner of Decca. So his speculation was that both will figure out how to fix his Supremo. They deed so Don got his Supremo much cheaper than Nandric his Rex. Both carts are bought in Japan . I hate their intermediary. All of them charge fees for totally unknown services...
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bukanona, the biggest worry of us both (my friend Don and I ) was if and where possible repair can be done. It is nice to have two repair services. I will ask Don about the price of his repair for comparison sake.
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Dear chakster, ''not so convenient?'' You should chose some other hobby . Say stamp collection (grin).
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bukanona, the new stylus for Ikeda's cantileverless 9 series cost 278 GBP by ''Expert stylus''. If other repair possibilities are available is unknown. But, as I already mentioned, the owner of ''Expert stylus'' is good friend of the Decca owner so, possibly, they can figure out what can be done. BTW their own stylus is called ''Partrace'' an version of micro ridge.
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Addition, I forget to mention the following. The stylus by Ikeda's 9 series cantileverless kinds are fastened in different way to their ''holder''. This means critical reg. stylus length. However ''Expert stylus'' also produces styli and can cut them at the right length. This may imply that other ''repair services'' can't provide the right styli. To me the repair possibility is necessary pre condition to buy any cart.
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Yes , special for ''choose chakster'' . I am wondering why he bought Ikeda 9c, III without insurance that the precious can be repaired in the West? But he may think that provided the cart is new or NOS it will function for the rest of his life.
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Dear chakster, comparing apples with pears is curious business. |
My Gosh what an romantic picture. If this picture say something about you than I understand your problem. But there is this prosaic saying : ''love make people blind''.
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Dear chakster, there was an thread about ''old school tonearms'' or similar. There are of course also ''old school gentlemen''. Your kind of music was (back) then not considered as ''decent''. Decent was only classical music with exception of national (folk) music. The excuse was of course patriotism. Curious how ''decency'' can change as function of time. I got so to speak an reproach in the sense ''those old people like only classical music''. However those ''old scold'' regarded your kind of music as noise not as music. Comparing funk with, say, Bach is a kind of sacrilege. No wonder you like MM kinds (grin).
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Dear chakster, I was only teasing you. On the Balkan we have very exciting folk music. It is more popular than classical or jazz. But what do you mean with ''My age is also way different''? I see that you admire many carts which I also admire. Those are primary MC kinds but our consensus suggest no relation to age (grin).
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