...And we would not be offended by a non-professional picture in the intereim. Hint-hint. |
Dear Albert: " I am looking forward to the day that Raul needs photography and will allow me to audition the 3160 for an extended time. "
You will have it. As you know this is not my main " business " and we are slow on it. Sooner or latter you will have it.
I will try as soon is posible.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi folks, I recently had the upgrade from Raul and Jose on my Essential 3150 and have posted a full review on audiogon at http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rprea&1187459855&openusid&zzDgob&4&5#Dgob.
I hope it will prove useful. |
Audiofiel and I have exchanged email, we do fine.
As I've stated in previous posts, I'm willing to listen to the Essential again after Raul finishes tweaking. I even offered product photography, which has real value since that's what I do for a living.
Even if the Essential is not my cup of tea I can still respect it for what it is. It's going to be tough to dislodge me from tubes. I've had a lot of product in and out of my system and tubes do it for me.
The short listening session we had is better than listening at CES, but Raul and I only had one day to listen and there was way too much going on.
I prefer not going on record about equipment performance until I completely understand every facet of the product being discussed. That's why I've not joined in as much as others, it's nothing against Raul, in fact we got along splendidly. |
I hope I did not betray any secrets. Jose' neither asked me me nor forbade to make that announcement.
Yes Albert you are right as usual, the improvements are mostly cosmetic.
Just ignore Audiofiel. Beleive or it or not he is a nice guy with a sense of humor. |
For what here would seem to be a minority view on auditioning the Essential 3150, please see my comparative findings with the H-cat starting at:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1059180366&openfrom&654&4#654 |
I ask because when Raul was here I ask why the umbilical cords were mounted on the front rather than the rear. Visually it was unappealing and Raul said he planned to change that in the new model. Paul and I discussed that with Raul too, and shared some ideas for faceplate redesigns that would make it look more like a commercial unit. Of course our preamp is even more obviously a home-build. But it and the Essential are the two most realistic and lifelike sounding preamps we've heard. |
Is the new 3160 model a circuit change or cosmetic?
I ask because when Raul was here I ask why the umbilical cords were mounted on the front rather than the rear. Visually it was unappealing and Raul said he planned to change that in the new model.
So is the 3160 the 3150 with mods or a partial redesign? |
Audiofeil, the Edsel failed because of lack of market acceptance, the Corvair failed because of management ineptness. Anyway, your analogy for the Essential is pretty silly.
Have you seen or heard the Essential 3150? I have and while I believe Raul or Jose' would not expect it (or any product) will appeal to everyone, it has sonic abilities that warrant consideration by anyone considering an upper end preamp or line/phono combination. |
A new model?
Already?
The successor to their Edsel. What's it called, the Corvair?
Hasta la vista baby. |
I received an email form Jose' of J&R Music. He is as much a gentleman as Raul. It is clear the Essential is manufactured to the highest standards. Some much higher priced units use "proprietary" parts which do not approach this level. There is now a "3160". I assume there is a price increase. I suppose I will have to hear the preamp some time this summer. |
Kdtran, having heard the Essential 3150 in two other systems plus my own, I will say that during these auditions, issues of tube VS ss never entered my mind. Instead, I marveled at the open and uncolored presentation of the (recorded) musical event. To qualify this I will say that in general, I have preferred the sounds from tube gear for nearly the past 20 years. The point is, not all tube electronics suit me and not all ss fail me. Everything in this hobby must be evaluated for its own merit.
My 3 cents worth, accounting for inflation! |
I have been reading this thread with great interest as i am looking for something simpler to replace my 2 unit system (preamp and phono preamp). But i am always been a tube man so it's hard for me to imagine any non-tube unit that can be as good.
Still, i believe the best way to see if it fit your system is to go ahead and buy the unit and audition it in your system to see if it fit - there a so many taste in audio and system set up that you can read review till you are blue in the face, but the ultimate test is to put it in your system; case in point is the recent Triplanar Tonearm i just audition - i have heard so much how good it is but when i have it in my system and compared to my Graham Phantom, i still prefer my Graham but when i stuck it on my friend system, it match his perfectly!!!!
I wish most manufacturer will allow home audition for a fee (maybe 1-2% audition fee of the unit cost) so us audiophile can try to match our system and finetune without breaking our bank by buying and selling; well isn't it why audiogon is around :-)...
Just my 2 cents, |
Raul,
obviously totally hypothetical. In other words, if I were to compare your preamp to some others, and for reasons of personal taste I prefered another preamp, I would still have no problem with you prefering yours. |
Dear Piedpiper: +++++ " , even if, for my purposes, " +++++
Which ones are those purposes? could you share with us?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
" Matt and I both own the Essential and would both (I believe) argue very strongly that it is not only objectively accurate, it is also subjectively beautiful in its representation of recordings (both phono and line stage). I repeat myself by stating that it brings me closer to live performances than any other piece of equipment that I have owned and/or auditioned."
And hopefully you both remain secure in your purchase.
"...need to hear the Essential before deciding what it might or might not be and do..."
No doubt. |
Unless I have missed quite a lot, the argument is being misrepresented. Matt and I both own the Essential and would both (I believe) argue very strongly that it is not only objectively accurate, it is also subjectively beautiful in its representation of recordings (both phono and line stage). I repeat myself by stating that it brings me closer to live performances than any other piece of equipment that I have owned and/or auditioned. It also acts as a critical tool by which items (ranging from my Allaerts MC2 Finish Gold to my Kubala Sosna Emotion cabling) can be assessed. And as with Piedpiper, I have no problems with Raul stating that it was designed to exceed any other line and/or phono stage out there.
I am bemused by efforts to turn this into an argument. More so when the argument seeks to base itself in a "tubey v SS" or "subjectivist v objectivist" nonesense. I am certain that Raul has argued in various threads that:
1. The technology is no guarantee of quality. You can have poor applications of any technology, and
2. The live performance and/or actual recording is the only true criterion for judging the value of any piece of equipment. Need we consider the obvious in that we are talking about "high fidelity (hifi)"?
Finally, I believe Piedpiper is bang on again, when he suggests the need to hear the Essential before deciding what it might or might not be and do. |
"Beauty is in the ear of the listener right?..."
If I were the creator of the music then, I get to do whatever I want. Then the beholder is the subjective judge of beauty. But the recreator has no such license. Music creation is one thing; music reproduction is another. The so called ss objectivist are always acusing the so called tube subjectivist of creating a thing of beauty but not necessarily faithful to the original. The subjectivist acuse the objecitvist of recreating something that measures faithfully but has no likeness to the real thing.
There are some things in music we just can't measure. It's like cooking. I can buy the best cook book and follow the recipe faithfully;, I still ain't no Julia child. As Raul himself states he spent years exchanging parts for optimum results.
On the other hand if everybody could cook like Julia Child, it just wouldn't be special now would it?
"...Raul...thinks his preamp is the best..." gentleman that he is he has tried to avoid comparisons to any one preamp. No need to ruffle any feathers if you don't have to. |
I think Raul is a very kind, compassionate, respectful and experienced man who thinks his preamp is the best; and that's ok with me, even if, for my purposes, I were to disagree (which I am not in a position to do). |
I get what your saying - he's definitely implying that it's unique, but I usually cringe when absolute terms like "best" are used. At least he didn't say "the Essential is the best preamp, period." I think Raul would agree that best, from a sound perspective, is a subjective term in this case and can't possibly mean the same thing to all people. I can see J&R saying that they think it's the best(especially from a design point of view), but I can't see them arguing that you, or anyone else, will think so. Beauty is in the ear of the listener, right?:-).
|
"We don't do/make any Essential 3150 voicing to meet other similar audio devices. We make/do our best on the Essential 3150 circuit/layout/execution design, selecting the best neutral parts: here in the parts selection was where we made some voicing looking for that neutrality with out loosing: accuracy, very low noise, very low distortion, etc, etc."
I'd say they have thrown down the gauntlet, wouldn't you? |
I don't remember Raul ever stating that his preamp is the the best. Maybe I missed that, but "best" is a loaded word. I love tubes, see a lot of live music, and use a VAC Phi 110 with my Essential. IMO, a tube lover can still find lots to like in the Essential - I have.
Matt |
Us tubeys really love our colorations. We never attend live concerts. We just want to feel good. Classic ss state argument.
I am also sure you could write my response. The classic tube argument that is.
The fact is Raul has proclaimed his preamp the best. Totally neutral and faithful to the music. That's a lofty claim and will be subject to considerable attack. I am sure he doen't mind. |
Dgob,
the other element that's missing in your description is the PA used at the Aswad concert. If the concert was not unamplified, the amplifiers and speakers, as opposed to the mixing board and recording device, are likely to lack the subtlety of the systems referenced here and and are undoubtedly solid state. Not to argue your point too strongly; just an addtional tempering element. |
I have various friends who are open about "listening to their hifi". In many instances, this has meant that they acknowledge the importance of listening to that-something-extra that their equipment imparts to actual produced sound (for which the term "musicality" seems to stand at times).
The Atma-sphere MA1 and MP-3 combination appears (to me and my range of experience) to represent the ultimate in the type of system and sound that they wish to hear. Is it musical? Within the prominent framework of "hifi sound": ABSOLUTELY. Is it accurate. In line with actual performances: Absolutley NOT. And I'll try to indicate my view here.
I happen to have been at the live concert/carnival where Aswad recorded their 'Live and Direct' album. I was pleasantly surprised by the wide and warm palette through which the Atma-sphere (OTL) combination presented this album. However, I definately recognised that it was not producing the sound that Aswad and the audience/crowd had produced. On the other hand, I am completely blown away and convinced by the beauty of the album that arises from it being accurately represented using the Essential and its associated (ss) technologies. Expectations, objectives and reference points all seem important here. |
I never suggested that ss can't be musical. Just that I have been disappointed so many times before. And as much as I admire Raul he has all the rhetoric of the proponents of ss. His disdain for tubes and affinity for spec's. Words like accuracy and neutrality have led me down the primrose path before only to leave me cold. I hope Raul has led us to the path of musicality. If he has, it will indeed be a "road less traveled." |
Hi Gregadd, he has and so I suppose you really should try to hear it. Having said that, I would not necessarily endorse your view of ss electronics! For example, the EAR 324 can be contrasted with the EAR 834P Signature to appreciate the potential limitations of the view that you express here. One reputable manufacturer using both ss and valve technologies.
The former (ie, the 324) is just so much closer to the actual recording and/or performance on any of the acquired criteria (lower sound floor, better dynamics, frequency extention, timbre, imaging etc) that I cannot believe anyone doing an objective A/B test could doubt this: despite the latter's popularity in certain hifi circles and publications!?
I feel that the issues concerning inherited expectations and colourations is significant here. Whilst this does not preclude preferences for more coloured items, it definately opens the question about the relationship between being "accurate" and being what people might percieve as "musical". My view is that the Essential is a rare object in being extremely accurate and, thereby, very musical. This of might of course throw into question certain adopted views of what indeed constitutes musicality in hifi. And we go back to the issue of live performances as a point d'appui, as it were... But the proof of the pudding remains in the eating! |
vanishingly low distortion,noise,low coloration and ruler flat frequency response has never been a problem for solid state. It's inability to sound like music is its' problem.
If Raul has solved that problem, then he has truly a special preamp. |
Thanks Dgob; all the more reason to hear more specific comparisons to known references so I can know what you mean. Of course, trying the piece out, alongside others, in my own system would trump all words. In lieu of that... |
Hi Piedpiper, I am a proud owner of the Essential 3150 and have had a chance to compare it with my various former preamp's and phonostages. These include an EAR 324, Audio Research LS25 MKII, Conrad Johnson PS16, Croft classic, and an Atma-sphere MP-3 (among a few other valve and ss models).
I think Groovey's point is valid and that the Essential does not impart any detectable signature of its own. What it does above other models is provide an optimum platform for the recorded source to flow through with an unbelievable degree of accuracy. This includes accuracy in timbre, pace, pitch, soundstage (width and depth), frequency extremes (top and bottom), midrange, dynamics and all against an unplumbably low soundfloor.
It might even seem to be an anti-hifi piece of equipment to the extent that it removes the numerous colourations that are inherent to much hifi and leaves only the musicians and their performances before the listener. This meant that it took me more time to get used to - with me having been unknowingly led by the industry and its champion's to an appreciation of the sound of different pieces of hardware.
Although I do not think it unacceptable that the more coloured and traditional approaches to performance can satisfy and provide a pleasurable listening experience, the Essential is indubitably something else. I believe (and he might strongly resent my assumptions) that this form of musical portrayal is what underpins Raul's many comments on valve amp's and his preferences for specific cartridges (Allaerts MC2), cables (Anaylsis Plus Silver), etc. It also underpins (IMHO) his emphasis on live performances as the true reference for hifi.
As I say, I think it has no signature or colourations and is only limited by the quality of the equipment that you select to accompany it. In this sense, it might be difficult to compare it to other pieces of equipment but I hope that my personal account is of some use and that more people have a chance to give the Essential a go: it really seems a phenomenal piece of equipment to me.
Kindest |
Thanks Groovey, I had read the original which is why I wanted to pursue it further. I am well aware of Raul's generous presence here and generosity therein. He is a testimony to well meaning directness; still only one point of view, however experienced. No need to read into my comments any negative subtext. There is none. |
Pied Piper,
Raul is a bennevolent pressence here at Audiogon and shares his passion and point of view for audio excellence often. He gave me an introduction to the Empire EDR.9 and you could look at my review.
When I asked Raul the same question he forwarded these comments from another thread concerning the introduction and demonstration inside other peoples home systems.
Let me pass these on to you
" 02-16-07: Sbank
Last weekend I was fortunate to get an extended opportunity to meet Raul and
listen to Raul's Essential 3150 at great length in three very different
systems. I will go into more detail in a moment, but let me summarize by
stating that as a guy with a longtime preference for tubes vs. ss, this is
the first piece of ss gear that I would be happy to own for the long run.
Long story, short, Raul came to Philadelphia after an email mail
exchange(about phono stages in general) where I mentioned to Raul our local
audio club, and that if he ever wanted to give a bunch of us a chance to
hear his phono/line preamp, that I could arrange it. I had never met Raul
previously, and have no business or economic relationship with him. Simply,
I saw an audience for Raul, and my audio club often enjoys demonstrations
from various manufacturers, etc.
The Essential 3150 spent time in three systems: mine, Slipknot1's and
Badboss429's. The systems are quite varied as follows:
"Warming in the Atma-Sphrere" - Atma MA1s/Merlin VSM-MX w/ SuperBam/ Atma
MP3/VPI TNT6-HR w/12.6, Walker Motor Controller and ZYX Airy3S- SB/ modded
Sony SACD/Cardas, Omega Mikro, Silent Source, GroverHuffman cabling
"Ars Musica" - Walker Proscenium Gold w/Magic Diamond/Wolcott P220s/ Kharma
2.2s/Supratek Chenin/Rives room design/Silent Source, Synergistic, Omega
Mikro cable
Badboss429's - Quicksilver Triode Monoblocks/Audio Research SP11mk2/ heavily
modded Michell Gyrotec & Zeta Arm w/Transfiguration Temper W/ Goldmund
Dialogues/Minimax CD/Walker Velocitor/Omega Mikro cables
Of course no component is "best" overall, and I haven't heard every preamp
around, but I can say that in these systems, the Essential 3150 was a
dramatic improvement over the other preamp in each case with both line and
phono stages. The Essential has no signature of its own that I can detect.
It sounds neither "tubey" nor ss. It allows music to flow in a seemingly
effortless fashion.
In my system, I heard details in familiar recordings with greater clarity.
For example, in the last movement of the Mercury Dorati/LSO Firebird, just
before the main theme returns a short motif starts at the back or the
orchestra and then is repeated by success rows of instruments, coming closer
each time it's repeated. This hit me like waves hitting the beach with
tremendous emotion. The Essential lowered the noise floor beyond other phono
stages that I'd tried without bleaching the tonality or sacrificing the full
body of individual instruments.
In "Ars Musica", the Essential immediately increased the size of the
soundstage in both width and depth, something I didn't expect vs. the
Supratek, which generally excels in that area. Quiet black backgrounds are
often the forte of ss phonostages, but the Walker table really can expose
any downstream troubles. The synergy between the Walker and the Essential
was overwhelming.
I must say that the sound in that system that day from the sweet spot is one
of the best sounding to my ears that I've heard in 25 years in this hobby.
Without a doubt, the most musical of about 5 times hearing various Kharmas.
Whether listening to classical, jazz or rock, everything sounded balanced
and natural. Dynamics, tonality, transparency, we heard it all. So many toes
were tapping, we looked like an audio-geek chorus line!
About 40-50 members of our audio club were at this demo, spread out over
about 6 hours, so perhaps some others who attended will chime in here with
their impressions. From the reactions I heard, I think many were
dumbfounded, as I was.
On Monday, Raul and I brought the Essential to Badboss429's place, as he was
hoping to hear it in his rig. Same story here, with overall enjoyment of the
system taken to new heights. Bass clarity and detail was the most apparent
thing, along with great dynamic presence notable on things like loud trumpet
bursts, etc.
It's hard to describe a component that doesn't have its own sound. But I
can't find much of a signature on this piece. It allowed me to hear more
everywhere I heard it, but it didn't strike me as "too hi-fi", as many ss
components affect my ears. I never thought I'd lust for a piece of ss gear;
now I stand corrected.
The construction and design of the Essential 3150 are high quality and low
key style-wise, with many aerospace industry quality parts. Raul spent many
years in the design of this piece, and I was fascinated to hear from him how
he went to great lengths in both measuring components for great subjective
performance and listening by ear to ensure great musicality. I encourage
anyone who is interested in a state-of-the-art phono/line preamp to check
out the Essential 3150; Raul and his new jewel really impressed me. Cheers,
Spencer Sbank "
best regards
Groovey Records |
I believe "Experience with Raul's Essential 3150" can include real comparisons to other known preamps. Obviously, this would shed light on the character of the 3150, which, if I'm not mistaken, is the topic of this thread.
'nuff said, eh? |
They digress. Without my permission no less! |
Gregadd, I do disagree, but hey no one owns a thread, as is obvious given the way many go far away from the initial start of the thread. |
I just thought since the name of the thread is "Experience with Rauls' Essential 3150" then that is what we should talk about. If you want to talk about Walkers preamp then start you own thread. If you disagree, so be it. |
Gregadd, what does Walker have to do with this? Piedpiper merely asked if anyone had compared the two. Why should this be on another thread. Hopefully this thread will not become like the one on Supratek or H-Cat. I dearly wish people would post personal experiences and were they furtunate enough to have a comparison, I would love to hear their experiences. I would love to compare the Essential with the H-Cat as I look forward to comparing the Exemplar top preamp with the H-Cat. |
I believe I made myself quite clear in my response to Gregadd, and Albert stepped up to the plate admirably, if a little less specific than I would have prefered. My question stands, as well as a wish for comparisons to any and all other contenders. I happen to be familiar with Lloyd's phono stage is all, and I would think that a comparison of two (or more) top tier SS stages would be of particular interest as there will always be those who will prefer tubes regardless. There is no reason to "do it in another thread" when comparing to the 3150, regardless of anyones perception of Lloyd's style, or mine for that matter. Raul isn't exactly shying away from self promotion here and I don't begrudge him the opportunity. I have always felt as I said above that comparisons between components, as well as to live music, are essential since we are choosing components. |
I don't mind comparing Rauls preamp to anny preamp. I just think Walker or his supporters should do it in another thread. Raul has implied that his preamp is dead neutral. IMO that is just another way of saying it is the best. He has "thrown down the gauntlet" and should be prepared to defend it against all comers.
Something Raul has never shied away from in the past. |
Gregadd, why the overreaction to Piedpiper's simple comparison question? |
Whats your opinion on current mode input phono stages Raul? |
See the other thread about this preamp to read my comments on Raul's Philadelphia visit and on hearing the Essential in 3 different high end systems.
http://learn.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl? eanlg&1166047312&read&keyw&zz3150 Cheers,
Spencer |
Any member within driving distance to San Diego, please consider joining Members and Friends of the SD Music & Audio Guild (SDMAG) this Thursday (15Feb2007) at 6 PM sharp for our audio society's mid-February meeting.
We are graciously being hosted by the kind folks at Stereo Unlimited on Sports Arena Blvd (3191 Sports Arena Blvd, (619) 223-8151).
We are featuring Raul Iruegas and his Essential 3150 full function preamp. We will also have some raffle giveaways throughout the evening.
Raul is a fellow enthusiast I met through numerous discussions in this forum. He has already showcased his preamp in the Southwest and as you now it was well received. This west coast leg comes after his more recent presentations in the Eastcoast, Midcentral and Midwest states, including CO.
***Raul will also be available on the 16th, 17th, and 18th to demo his preamp in your system or store. If you are interested in hearing how his preamp sounds in your system with music you are most familiar with, then please let me know and I can schedule your request. A few requests have come in and we hope you take advantage of this great opportunity.***
If Raul's preamp does not interest you enough to attend, hopefully a great evening with fellow music and audio fans and the promise of at least SIX raffle giveaways can convince you to come.
Kind Regards! |
We'll see you here in Colorado on Valentine's day Raul.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Dear friends: Time to go. I will ariive this friday to Philadelphia.
If I can I will report about the Essential 3150 roundtrip meetings. See you all over!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: This is my February shedule trip on USA showing the Essential 3150, everyone is welcome! :
- Philadelphia: 10-12, the main presentation will be in Joe's ( Slipknot1 ) house. You could be in touch with Joe or with Spencer Bank at: spencerbank@comcast.net slipknot1@comcast.net
Thx again to both of you.
- Denver: 14. This will be at Thom's ( Thom_mackris )place and you could be in touch at: galibier_design@hotmail.com
Thx Thom for your effort.
- San Diego: 15-17. Here Norm ( ctm_cra@yahoo.com ) will be our gentle hostess, Thx for that Norm.
Well, I think that all of us could have a good time during those meetings.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: As you can read some of my Mexican friends had the opportunity to heard the Essential 3150 ( at least three of them were musicians: Jsadurni, Cardani and the dealer friend of Cardani ) some of them tube lovers.
Like Jsadurni posted: the Colibri ( in my system ) is an unbeateable cartridge, something to hear it.
Yes, like Cardani posted the MM cartridges are really good, the one that he hard was the Micro Acoustic MA 630, this is only a good example almost all my MM cartridges sound great.
The audio experience that Guilermo ( Gconde ) and I share with the Halcro DM10 ( that P. Bolin in Stereophile put over the Boulder and Steelhead preamps. ) in his and my audio systems was really a great one, not only because the Essential 3150 beats the Halcro ( by a wide margin ) or because Guillermo buy the Essential 3150 after that, but because he and I find that the differences between the Halcro DM10 and the Essential 3150 where the same on both systems but with different grade: both systems are different on its whole resolution and the differences were higher in the higher resolution system.
This subject is important because many of us that posted in Agon heard different things on the same audio item and ask why those differences: different systems and different system resolution.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Brizonbiovizier: Our ultimate reference was/is " live music ".
The FM Acoustics/ Vendetta Research/ Manley/ Boulder /etc, etc., were references in different ways: accuracy, noise, distortion, frequency response, etc, etc.
We don't do/make any Essential 3150 voicing to meet other similar audio devices. We make/do our best on the Essential 3150 circuit/layout/execution design, selecting the best neutral parts: here in the parts selection was where we made some voicing looking for that neutrality with out loosing: accuracy, very low noise, very low distortion, etc, etc.
We don't manipulate the Essential 3150 looking for a Essential 3150 " colored signature " other than the natural Essential 3150 own design.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Which others did you use as bench marks? |
Dear Brizonbiovisier: Yes, with the FM 222 along the FM 255/266.
Very good units but I prefer the whole Essential 3150 performance. As a fact the FM Acoustics was one of our test bench standard for performance against our Essential design.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
