**** Excellent suggestions and analysis by Chris. ****; and Pegasus.
Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners
Where are you? What mods have you done ?
I have been using these ET2's for over 9 years now.
I am still figuring them out and learning from them. They can be modified in so many ways. Bruce Thigpen laid down the GENIUS behind this tonearm over 20 years ago. Some of you have owned them for over 20 years !
Tell us your secrets.
New owners – what questions do you have ?
We may even be able to coax Bruce to post here. :^)
There are so many modifications that can be done.
Dressing of the wire with this arm is critical to get optimum sonics along with proper counterweight setup.
Let me start it off.
Please tell us what you have found to be the best wire for the ET-2 tonearm ? One that is pliable/doesn’t crink or curl. Whats the best way of dressing it so it doesn’t impact the arm. Through the spindle - Over the manifold - Below manifold ? What have you come up with ?
2,371 responses Add your response
Excellent suggestions and analysis by Chris. vpi, while I have not used a HW19 for some time and ever since I got my TNT6, I did experience what you describe during the years that I did use it. It was a very low level, volume dependent, hum that I was never able to get rid of. In my case, the cause of it was the HW19’s motor itself; the hum was much worse when the motor was turned off (!). While I could never get rid of it entirely, the level of hum was lowest when I secured a grounding wire to one of the bolts which secure the arm board (ET2, of course) and ran it to the ground lug on the back of my preamp. Hum/grounding issues involve a bit of black magic and the causes and solutions don’t always make sense at first. In addition to Chris’ excellent suggestions try removing the tt belt and with the stylus resting on an lp turn the motor on and off. Any change in hum level? Then, lift the stylus off the record and do it again to make sure the hum is not simply mechanical noise generated by the motor. Btw, it is not clear from your description of the problem whether you can hear the hum while music is playing. Also, try reversing the orientation of the tt AC plug. These may give you a clue as to what is going on. Keep in mind that, like Chris, almost from the time I got my ET2, I have used a straight run of wire from cartridge to preamp; no junction box. I also highly recommend this; the sonic benefits are tremendous imo. However, interestingly and unfortunately, while things are dead quite with MC carts, I now (TNT) tend to have noise issues (mostly buzzing) with MM cartridges. Varies cart to cart. My Acutex and Azden are acceptable, the Empire is borderline; and very frustratingly my “Holy Grail MM”, the AT ATML 170 OCC is unusable. With a lot of experimentation and moving wires around as Chris suggests I can get things acceptably quite with most MM’s, but there is always some noise which I wish I could get rid of entirely. Good luck and I know I am not thinking of some of the other things that I tried. I will post them as I think of them. |
@vpi: regarding hum: The Delos has ca. 2.5 dB more output than the Black Beauty in low output configuration, with a quite low source / coil impedance. I suspect the vdH is more in the range of 20-30 Ohms. I was & am amazed that this information is lacking in all sources I could find, be it van den Huls website, be it eg. Stereophiles / Sculls review! The source impedance is an absolutely essential technical information, as essential as the outpult voltage. There are two reasons:- Stray capacitance couples the static mains voltage field into the tonearms signal wiring and forms a RC voltage divider, the R provided by the source impedance - in this case the source impedance of the cartridge. Ie. a lower source impedance shorts more of the coupled mains field to ground. Shielding should shunt this voltage proportionally to the degree of shielding, and by adding a higher capacitive impedance against the external field. - For MC transformer compatibility, source impedance is the key parameter (not voltage) - it makes or breaks compatibility. Assuming a 3x source impedance, this increases stray hum coupling by 9.5 dB, which would result in 12dB more hum with the vdH than the Delos, based on simple and precise signal calculations. The key issue comparing cartridges is the relationship of the voltages vs. the relationship of the source impedances. This defines in essence the relative hum levels. Rel. low impedance / rel. high voltage are desirable. The Koetsus are quite good there, with Delos and others. Jan Allaerts and vdH (?) are more tricky in that regard. Add to that, that the signal shield of the ET2 must be open for the "mobile" wiring loom. The Ortofon arm is almost completely shielded, except maybe 5 mm with visible wires in the horizontal bearing. In my free external wiring of the ET2 I added a very thin wire from one of the fixing collars of the arm to the ground post. This helps, but not totally cures it. - A bright timbre of the hum signal hints at stray field coupling (capacitive) - A dark timbre with sometimes some nasty low harmonics hints at a ground loop, ie. magnetic coupling. |
Good morning Chris, Thanks for the thorough analysis. You may just sell me on a loom yet. My current ICs are so short there is no room to move them more than a couple of inches. I have a second set that are a little longer I will try moving around a bit. Yes, I've read the posts and reviews that talk about shielding and coloration. The Grover Huffmans, however, do get some terrific user reviews. I should have them next week and will let you know what I hear. As for the feedback, your idea regarding subwoofer placement is interesting. I'll try moving mine around. I don't think I had the feedback with the spring suspension on the HW-19 but I really like the stability and modest sonic improvements the Herbies Tenderfeet brought to the TT. Most frustrating is although my two TTs are only two feet apart the Garrard rig is dead quiet and has no feedback. If a Platine appeared at something I could afford, my VPI would be history. |
Harry, I came to a conclusion long ago, that this interference is not one large cloud that fills the room. It is pockets of smaller clouds, or picture those laser beams that protect valuables in a vault. This is obvious as you the move the interconnects and the levels change. The trick is to move the wires/IC’s between these pockets, lines of interference. One needs to be the most anal with wiring arrangement, especially with a turntable, when using Single Ended. Imagine using Single Ended with a large Class A amp that uses 450 watts at idle. With all that current there at idle, if there is a cable in a not so great position, this large amp coming to life will tell you. Shielded IC’s color the sound and take from the small phono signal. It gets absorbed into the material. Depending on the cable manufacturer you get varying colors. This is going by memory from years ago but is as clear as if it was yesterday. I still do own Purist Audio interconnects. I have multiple looms. My first stock ET2 bypass went just past the turntable to the phono box ...then the Purist Audio IC’s to the preamp. I am not saying it did not sound good, but the straight in just good wire loom destroyed it. The Purist Audio IC’s are kept around for the Dynavector tonearm on the Jean Nantais Lenco TT. If you did one day go to a straight loom, you would need a very short one based on how your gear is set up. This is good. The location of the phono inputs on your preamp is ideal. You want it coming off the tonearm, dropped down and then back up to the preamp. A happy face loop. So it helps if your preamp is on the same level with the turntable to help create that loop. Your performance in audiophile speak would go more live, immediate - Just saying. One of the things the straight loom brings. The ET2 begs for a straight loom with its design. I run mine outside of the tonearm entirely and braided along the armtube to reduce interference. The arm is set up in its entirety without wiring, then the wiring gets added. That way I know there is no wiring effect altering setup which it does do. The ET2 bearing is just too smooth, slippery. Some pull their hair out on setup due to this. *********************** Acoustic Feedback is always there, and with a turntable cartridge picking up this feedback and sending this signal through, it can create havoc as we know. Any turntable set up on a suspended floor, main floor, is not ideal and you will need to use various "band aids" to fix the sound. I knew one guy whose turntable set up was good, but his subwoofer was placed between the suspended wood beams that supported the floor. It sent vibrations through the floor to his table. |
@ct0517 I don't have a straight in loom like you. My loom is terminated in a Cardas phono box with RCA fremale plugs. From the box to preamp I'm using 1 ft lengths of unshielded silver interconnect. The phono inputs on my preamp are on the side of the preamp closest to the TT (not on the back). Following your suggested diagnostics, moving the loom around has no effect on the hum. Moving the interconnect varies the intensity of the hum. So, if my assumption is correct and EMI is the culprit, it is being picked up by the ICs and not the loom. Of course, the ICs are closer to the preamp than the loom. Acoustic feedback. Yep, I've got it. At listening level, however, it is nearly nonexistent. But, correct me if I'm wrong, the acoustic feedback is distinct from my hum which is there with no tapping and no noise in the room and without the stylus on the still record. It's just another issue for me to obsess about. Right? :) |
@slaw . Yes, I'd be interested in your impressions of the Huffman cables. I've ordered his current Empress. Not that I was dissatisfied with the sq of the current cables I'm using in the phono stage. They are quite revealing without being bright or etched. I'm just trying to get rid of the hum. Admittedly, I'm a little OC about the hum as it is not audible at anything close to a reasonable volume. |
Harry - my two cents. with volume muted, let tonearm/cart down on a STILL record not moving. unmute - start raising the volume. When the hum is noticeable. Go to your loom and start moving the wires around one at a time, especially in back of the phono stage. Does the hum get worse or better ? If it changes, look for the best spot then use blue tac spots to help secure them in place. I use unshielded wire and my setup is quiet with this test, but I did have to spend some time initially moving the wires into the best position behind the preamp. While you are there, also test for acoustic feedback; this time after you unmute and raise the volume, Start a dance in front/side/back of the turntable with no music - STILL record. What happens ? If nothing. Good. *********************** A forum thread reminder. It has been my experience on AudioGon, that derogatory comments are usually deleted by the moderator. No exceptions for anyone. Maybe some of mine have been deleted in the past. I don't know as I never go back to check posts; unless i want to use one as a reference link, in a future post. |
@ct0517, Hockey comment??? Don’t know what you are referring to? @vpi, You may want to ask yourself, why was the previous post removed? If you ever find that answer, you'll know why I wrote the words you eventually saw.... then posted...@slaw ??????? Some members have enough power to have posts removed even though there are no (rules' violations). @vpi, I have quite a bit of experience with Grover’s earlier stuff. Still use some of his power cords. My experience would be only of help to you as to their sonics. @ct0517, I can keep on retracing my posts to correct them after you've had the folks at A'gon to remove what may have been seen by you as something other than what you present yourself as....Or you can just let the flow of the flow of the conversation lay where it should? It's up to you my friend? |
@frogman and others with HW-19. While "checking things out" the other day I noticed at very high volume levels I have a hum in both channels with my HW-19/ET II/VDH Black Beauty rig. The hum is volume sensitive. It is not present with the Garrard/Ortofon/Delos rig. I went through the grounding rituals and believe that the culprit is EMI and not a ground loop. I'm running only 1 foot of solid silver interconnect which has a cotton cover and no shielding. I tried substituting a 1 meter run of shielded Straightwire cable I wasn't using. This made the hum worse and when I reposition the longer interconnect the hum changes in intensity. Primarily because of this last symptom I believe the hum to be EMI.
The sound is a very low level hum but not a buzz typical to ground loop. It doesn't interfere with listening because at any reasonable volume level it is not audible more than a couple of feet from the speakers. As I know all audiophiles can understand, it is just an itch I cannot scratch. Reading my ET II manual I see that the ET is supposed to have a ground wire with lug attached to the negative side of one RCA plug in the clear plastic phono box. It is soldered to the negative side of one of the RCA plugs. Mine does not have this ground wire. I have tried, however, without success, running a ground wire from the RCA plug to my preamp.. Based on my preliminary conclusion that the hum is EMI, I have ordered a set of Grover Huffman Empress interconnects but they have yet to arrive. They are triple shielded and low capacitance. I've tried without success to locate the source of EMI by unplugging everything except my amp and preamp. Actually, the amp is too far away from the TT to be the culprit. Wondering if you or others have any suggestions. Thanks, Harry |
^^^ AWOL ? Slaw, you were, imo, very wise to remove your hockey comment in your previous post. Otherwise I may have been forced to unleash Wile E Coyote on you ; 8^0 ************** This is just for Slaw only. Game 1 result. Vegas Golden Knights 6 - Washington Capitals 4 Vegas are 500 -1 odds ........ in Vegas. $50 bet brings $25k |
Sorry @vpi, I thought you were in a closer location to me. @ct0517 , Chris seems to be possessive of you so I'll just let the invitation lie. If you would like to have a get-together, let me know. Another audio enthusiast and I are interested in a group. Hopefully this invitation won't be seen as an affront to ct0157. |
^^^ as far as cities go. anyone that at the beginning of the hockey season, put good money on the Las Vegas Golden Knights - NHL (National Hockey League) to get into the Stanley Cup Final ....... .can today probably buy their own town, small city.........maybe private island in the tropics. Vegas Knights NHL fans please don't take this for granted. The City of Toronto has been waiting for this event with their Toronto Maple Leafs since 1967. |
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@vpi, Regarding your inquiring of suspension on a VPI HW-19?.. I found through years of trying everything,... using a combination of Symposium Rollerblock Jrs../ Super Couplers. made the table stand out. More transparency, increased definition, musical bass. I have my oak base I modified just for this for sale and a Mk IV plinth (the SS/acrylic one) for sale as well. I made a plinth puller tool that is also very helpful. Depending on which platter one has, will be the determining factor in the height of the Symposium stack. |
Why do you ask ? One of my pet peeves with the new format AudioGon Forum is dealer disclosure. Its optional. It should be mandatory. The other "pp" is not allowing us to have a linkable virtual system with forum talk, forcing us to use external links like google. Audiogon (Tammy) are you reading this ? Pegasus - thanks for clearing that up. |
The tuning of the cartridge was a job I did for a friend & small audio tuning shop. and I am distributor of Ambience Ribbon hybrid speakers. But this is not a business in any normal sense. I run a cultural hotel including concert program and do some live recordings. Audio is not my business - it is my passion.Around which I have acquired some skills. The Ambience Ribbons distribution came out of my interest in the product as a customer. It is a very good product but there is not a real market in Switzerland for a small company run on a small part time job. I do not sell any analog products like cartridges, tonearms etc. Why do you ask? |
Regarding the Trans-Fi arm: it is somewhat different to the ET 2, but it has more in common with it than with radial arms. It has an ingenious knife edge bearing for the vertical movement, a gravity loaded, open low pressure high flow air bearing, a very short and very stiff arm / sledge connection, and medium high rigidity for twisting the sleigh around the vertical axis. It is a *functionally* very high precision bearing design, that puts less strain on production tolerances than the ET 2. The vertical movement geometry, with a high vertical bearing and considerably lower tracing point, is similar to some older linear trackig tonearms like Revox, or the Souther / Clearaudios, but is much better / stiffer in implementation. The closest today (in vertical geometry) is the RS Labs RS-1 arm. This geometry has some well known and discussed drawbacks (FM modulation with vertical warps) - but it has one less well known (nor discussed) advantage: Placing the vertical bearing in +/- a line that extends the cantilever upwards (+/- 20 degrees) it reduces/eliminates a dynamical vertical force generated at the cantilever bearing, which is created by varying tracing friction. The effect is very similar to the dynamic forces that are created by the horizontal offset angle of radial arms’, which varies dynamically too, and thus constantly feeds vibration energy into the arm/cartridge resonant system. Horizontal in the latter case, vertical in the case of all arms that set the vertical axis eg. on platter level or rel. low. The Trans-Fi has outstanding customer reactions, the bass seems one of its key qualities (not as a trade-off), similar to the RS Labs RS-1. It is probably a bargain, similar to the Adanalog arm, but in engineering terms it has almost no compromises.This said, it *is* quite a huge "machine" that works only with stiffly suspended substantial turntable drives. |
Eric very happy to hear that it was a turntable limitation and not our ramblings on this thread, that prevented you from getting an Et2. I chose the Townshend Rock as my turntable because of my love of the Decca/London pickup; the Rock is THE table for the those pickups, for reasons I won’t go into here. It may be a really good table for that cartridge, I don’t doubt you at all; but you also know that Decca’s own reference tonearm is a Linear tracker. But since I prioritize the pickup over the arm, and the Rock is the best table for the pickup, never got myself an ET arm. I differ from you here on how to prioritize table, tonearm, cart - My take on it and opinion. My personal findings have been through my own number of carts, tonearms and tables - in my own space. Not at shows, or dealer salons, or other folks set ups, and or reviews. My experiments with putting the same tonearm, cartridge set up well, on different tables and hearing this after various mods. Better ----> Worse --------> Better -----> Different -------> Better --------> Different ------> Worse ---------> Better (one should always end up with better in the end) 8^0 Showed me very clearly how much role the table itself plays. In fact based on my findings. IMO, the better table, with a better tonearm and modest cartridge, set up well...... WILL..... outperform a very expensive cart on a more modest table and tonearm. No question. So if one is just starting out on an Audiophile Journey; I say stick with modest cartridges first, learn the table, tonearm relationship. Do your upgrades.....settle on a combo. Then go nuts on carts if they like. I do not deny that every cart one puts on changes the sound dramatically. I just think it is much easier to change out carts then whole turntables and tonearms. And with that if I ever get a another cart, a London is at the top of the list. Just remember. That very expensive cart is on a continual decline with hours played from Day One. Whereas I expect my turntable, and tonearm to outlast me. I can mount any cart I want on my ET 2.5. In summary I say - Invest in the table and tonearm and be done with it. Then have at it with various carts at a person’s desire. $$ ..to $$$$$ Just my 2 cents. ************** You have referred to the Trans fi Terminator tonearm a few times now. Can you clarify something for us Eric. Maybe for someone considering it. So from the website - It is a multi bearing (air and mechanical), sled based design where the air does not enclose 360 like the ET but rides under only. Re: its operation, my understanding is it does not swing away to load up a record ? A listening session for me is 6 or 7 records. .that means 12- 14 times I will place a record on the platter including flips. I don’t want that Cartridge anywhere near the record when loading. I need the tonearm/cartridge up and out of the way. |
@ct0517---Well, I do own two of Bruce’s speaker models, LFT-8b and LFT-4. My not having an ET arm is the result of long ago choosing the Townshend Rock as my turntable. A linear tracking arm can not be used with the Rock, due to the table’s damping trough. I’m of the opinion that a system is best assembled from the two ends inward---the phono pickup and the loudspeaker (both transducers) first, then the tonearm and the power amp. I believe the speaker should be selected before the amp, the amp then chosen by it’s suitability for use with that speaker. Likewise, the pickup first, then an arm particularly appropriate for the chosen pickup. Chris, as you know, I am also a long-time Quad ESL owner, and I got myself both a Bedini 25/25 and a pair of Atma-Sphere M60’s with which to power the Quads. I chose the Townshend Rock as my turntable because of my love of the Decca/London pickup; the Rock is THE table for the those pickups, for reasons I won’t go into here. I saw and heard the Oracle Delphi/ET-2 and VPI HW-19 & TNT/ET-2 many times at Brooks Berdan’s shop (Brooks’ two favorite arms were the ET and the Graham). But since I prioritize the pickup over the arm, and the Rock is the best table for the pickup, never got myself an ET arm. I got the VPI HW-19 with the intent of installing the spare Townshend damping trough I have on it for a second London. While looking around for an arm to put on the VPI, I became aware of the TransFi Terminator. I was intrigued when I saw a London Reference mounted on the arm in pictures, and subsequently learned that TransFi owner/designer Vic used the Reference himself. Since the Terminator is only a little over a grand, I thought what the heck, I’ll give it a try. I have no idea how it compares to the ET arm, so if I end up liking the TransFi maybe I’ll consider looking into it. Though the ET and the TransFi are both linear-tracking air-bearing arms, they are very different from one another. |
Slaw - Slaw Regarding motors. I did research on a number of motors, and this included the possibility of using the SP10mkII as a motor/controller, placed beside the TNT; also considered an SL1200 I owned that I used to lend out to people over the years. I came to a dilemma with the TNT. The string/thread drive experiments were a revelation; I was a convert to it, and to improve on the setup I had, required a pulley and platter/bearing system more designed for thread. Ideally the pulley groove needs to be very small due to the diameter of the thread to work best. You can get thread drive to work with a Belt pulley well, as we have discussed here, but the TNT pulley was designed for a rubber belt. See these pictures. The belt pulley is on the left. The thread pulley on the right https://photos.app.goo.gl/8RtPVapcxiB1xHrL7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/fQtGRhfGVUz71Kjx8 Due to the lack of candidates, instead of further modding the TNT , I chose to pursue a TT that was designed specifically for thread drive. I did own the TNT for a period after acquiring La Platine and did try the Verdier motor with it and vice versa in failed experiments. This was interesting and I can provide more detail if anyone likes. The Original Platine Granito (like mine) was designed for Thread Drive only. I assume to drum up more sales in later years, Mr. Verdier added the Belt pulley option to appease those folks that wanted it. :^( ************************************ flemke - thanks for posting your video. You have an ET 2.0 with the HPM. I like the way you set up your wiring around the plinth area. Very little effect on the bearing. Some go wrong (imo) and try to imitate the Kuzma design with the wires up and over from the cart. This setup I have found effects the spindle/bearing with pushes and pulls. This is ok on the Kuzma design as it needs the wires and air tube for damping. The ET2 however is a different design and does not rely on damping from wires and tubing. It’s an ideal candidate for a wireless bluetooth cartridge/preamp if it ever gets invented. Recommend you get Bruce’ long I Beam. The weight requirement on your own modded I Beam would be cut in half. ************************************* @bdp24 I have to tell you that you are a type of Audio enigma to me. You see, from your posts on this forum, you appear to be a big fan of Bruce’;, yet as a vinyl guy you do not own the product he makes that IMO is above all others in design and operation. Did our antics on this thread intimidate you in any way ? 8^0 |
Love to see videos or pic of the ET 2. This is mine. I changed out the cartridge to a ZYX Omega Ultimate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh91bEcwkvo |
slaw, when you ask "Is the Hurst motor a springboard for (their) motor controllers?", are you speaking of Phoenix Engineering and their motor controllers, or VPI and theirs? It seems logical to assume that VPI controllers were developed specifically for the Hurst’s they install in all their tables, so I’m guessing you meant Phoenix Engineering. Design engineer and company owner Bill Carlin developed his motor products for use with any and all AC synchronous motors, including VPI’s of course. Bill knows a LOT about motors, and his postings on the VPI Forum site contain deep design details, a source of great information about turntables and their motors. The PE products are not only quite a bit more sophisticated and advanced than VPI’s, but also cheaper. Too bad they are no longer available! New, anyway. As I do with just about everything I buy used, I completely disassembled the VPI HW-19 I recently acquired. Once in pieces, I discovered that the little rubber grommets that are part of the motor stand-offs that separate the upper and lower motor mounts had broke apart, a common problem with the HW-19, I learned. I replaced them in the manner I mentioned above---with E-A-R Isoloss Sandwich Mounts, a direct, easy-to-install swap. I also discovered that the table does NOT have the Hurst motor it left the factory fitted with, but rather a Bergerlahr, a German company. Their motors are well regarded, and considered to be of higher quality than those of Hurst. I reckon either the original wore out and was replaced with the Bergerlahr, or it was installed by a former owner as an upgrade. ct0517, I have been reading on the VPI Forum about using thread in place of the stock rubber belts on their tables, and will eventually get around to trying that. |
Bdp24 - too d*mn big there are no such words in the Audiophile world. Too big is also a relative thing. You want big ....come see my Jean Nantais Lenco. You will have a Come to Jesus moment. For some its been their only religious moment. Picture this..ah actually no, see pic 8 Goldilocks and the Three Turntables. So it has by design to deal with those nasty idler resonances, hollowed out cavities under the motor, and both armboards; and it still weighs 100 lbs. Bdp24 - the expensive VPI’s use the same cr*ppy Hurst motor as the cheapest! If an Audiophile does not like their outboard motor, or their controller, it’s a very easy thing to swap out, or bypass it (in the case of the HW19). Changing out the bearing structure DNA is however another matter. You know, in real estate they like to say Location, Location, Location. Well with turntables and tonearms, it’s the Bearing, Bearing, Bearing.... . ********************** Regarding your Aries TT Eric. As a drummer IMO you owe it to yourself, to go to Fabricland, pick up some Silk thread and hear what thread driven drum shots sound like, compared to the rubber belt. |
@ct0517, the expensive VPI’s use the same cr*ppy Hurst motor as the cheapest! I recently got myself an Aries 1 for peanuts (specifically as a platform for the TransFi Terminator arm), and it is really a TNT with a smaller footprint (22" x 16")---the TNT was too d*mn big. One way to elevate any of the VPI’s is with the Phoenix Engineering Falcon or Eagle PSU’s, and Roadrunner tachometer. |
Bdp24 here is an Oracle ET combo here. Remember, there are over 2500 Et2’s out there. I suspect more and more vinyl combos to come available in the near future, as some owners have passed on, or are at that point in time where "convenience" with Audio has become the most important priority to them. bdp24 (Eric) I never owned the Canadian Oracle, but did own the Harry Weisfeld Mark 4 Piano Black and the more expensive TNT (which was designed as we know in a collaboration between Harry VPI and Bruce - ET. That collaboration ended, as all business relationships do; I suspect when Harry introduced his own tonearm. Both these tables HW19-4 and TNT were designed and built to certain price points. In analysis (past) of manufacturer turntable builds in general, I have noticed that "one" of the areas that designers put their focus on as price levels increase, is in the table’s tolerances. If one is in Audiophile Mode and looking for more performance, for either the stock HW19 and TNT, having owned them; improvements can be made to elevate the ET2 performance by upgrading the turntable’s 1) Bearing 2) Suspension (4 pods on the TNT) 3) Rubber belt drive system. For myself I discovered that these areas were a type of bottleneck to my ET2’s performance, in my system kit and space at that time. This became the most evident to me after the ET2 was put on other tables, SP10MKII and Nantais Lenco, with the same cartridge in my space; as well as being compared with Tape R2R - 15 IPS, Pic 28 in my virtual system shows what mods I ended up when I owned the TNT, to allow it to come closer to the speed stability of the SP10 and the Nantais Lenco groove factor. |
Michael Percy sells a product that HW-19 owners may want to try. It is made by well-known commercial isolation product specialist company EAR, and is named the Isoloss Sandwich Mount. It is intended for use on circuit boards, but the EAR Isoloss material has properties also well suited for turntable isolation applications. And, two of the sizes the Mount is offered in are perfect for the HW-19: about 1/3" tall with 4-40 threads, same as those used on the table's motor plate stand-offs; and 5/8" tall and in diameter, with 1/4-20 threads, same as the threads used in the spring suspension. The Sandwich Mount has a short male threaded stud on one end (1/2", in the case of the 1/4-20), with internal female threads on the opposite, flat rubber side. Each 1/4-20 size Mount can support 12 lbs., so a set of four can be used with even a TNT platter-fitted HW-19 (whose steel/acrylic sub-chassis weighs 18.6 lbs., the TNT platters 15-20). And, the threaded male stud allows the Mount to provide height-adjustment/leveling of the suspended sub-chassis. Only $5.95 each---I think I'm going to order a set. I have the original, stock springs (with the little plastic top caps fitted with 3 ball bearings), a set of Herbies Tall Firm Tenderfeet, and SIMS Navcom Silencers, all of which I intend to compare with the EAR Mounts. Those interested can read about the mount on Michael Percy's website. |
@frogman Yes, I remember now you are the VPI aficionado. I've read posts by several people who, like you, don't care for sorbothane as a spring replacement but the sorbothane/cone combination makes sense. I have several of the pucks you describe and a bunch of cones ( metal and ceramic). I'll have to try it out. The Herbies feet are much firmer than sorbothane so I don't think I'm seeing a lot of compliance at the top plate either. Like bdp24, many like the Sims navcom pucks. Alas, they are no longer made and hard to find on the used market. |
Prior to mounting my ET2 on a TNT6 (V platter), it spent time living on three versions of the HW19 (MK2-MK4). During that time I tried many different replacements for the springs. The best in my system, stability and sound wise, was an original Sorbothane puck with the round indentation facing up into which was inserted a short original Mod Squad cone facing up. The top plate rested on these and my sense was that the top plate saw little compliance. The height was perfect. I normally don’t like the sonic signature of Sorbothane, but it worked very well in this application. |
Brooks Berdan was a big fan of the Oracle Delphi (he even came up with a mod for it, which Oracle ended up copying), to which he mounted many of the Eminent Technology arm. But when the HW-19 (and then the TNT) was introduced, he switched allegiance to that high mass design for use with the ET, feeling it provided a better platform for the moving mass of the arm's wand. In addition to Herbies Tall Firm Tenderfeet, the SIMS Navcom Silencers are popular replacements for the HW-19's stock suspension springs. |
Those of you who still have your ET bolted to a VPI HW-19 may be interested in my experience with replacing the spring suspension. Being frugal and reading severalblogs about how childrens' noodles made a good replacement I tried one inch pieces of a noodle. While I initially liked the sound they were nowhere stiff enough for my MK III with its steel sub-chassis and TNT platter. Over night the noodle squished down way too far. To make matters worse they didn't squish at the same rate causing a loss of level. Not good for any arm but critical for the ET. Next I tried Vibrapod cones. Hard rubber cones with a steel ball at the narrow end. They made a nice firm foundation but the music seemed to go flat with a loss of air, bloom and soundstage depth. Just kind of boring. Finally, I inserted a set of Herbies extra firm, tall Tenderfeet. The soundstage deepened and the bloom and air returned. Nice firm foundation that does not degrade sound. Not denegrating the Vibrapod cones. They are a nice product but for this application the tall Tenderfeet were a much better solution. |
@pegasus . Thanks for the tip on VTF. I'm so pleased with the Delos on the Garrard and its sense of "there", it's probably going to stay on the Garrard. Don't want to touch it for fear of losing the magic. The Delos is a whole different cartridge on the Garrard. I did, however, play with VTF and VTA with the VDH on the VPI to a nice result (good grief is that enough V's for you). I lightened VTF just a tad (.03) and went just a little more nose down with VTA. As you predicted it firmed up the bass and made cymbals more wispy. Not sizzley but more delicate. Thanks, Harry |
The description of the sonic change with the Garrard reminds me of my friends system when he changed to a Lenco. Even with a very simple plinth the very satisfying solidity and propelling musicality just popped out of the speakers. Just *a lot* more "there there"! This was compared with same cartridge (Benz LP-S) on a WTT Signature (rare beast!) to a Funk tt with FX arm. Both are in no way slouches in regard to transparency and quickness etc. Regarding the thinness of the Delos on the VPI: When I tweaked & optimized a Benz for a customer I was astonished at how audible changes above 0.01-0.02 gram were. Too low and one gets an exciting, but edge of the seat sound, that sounds stressed sort of. Too high and the sound gets a bit dull and slow in the bass, with a lack of open timbres. The easy way to tweak is to set the VTF low and start with small, measured Blue-Tak balls, that are lightly stuck to the headshell. (Yes they change the sound slight by themselves - but more slightly than the weight change) Too low or high VTF has obviously the opposite signature to VTA changes. I think that the changes with tracking force are only partially explainable with implicite VTA changes. And I feel that the effect is more pronounced than VTA changes. If one starts to think about tweaking VTA and loading, my experience is that is crucial to really first tweak tracking force (VTF) by ear, with a precise digital tracking gauge. - And high precision & repeatability in setting the needle down on the gauge. |
I run my MC carts with no load at 47k also. I have found that with adjustable gain, with those LPs that are recorded brighter if I turn down the gain a bit, I don't have to fiddle with VTA. With digital and its high compression on many albums this feature is invaluable. My Lenco idler I thought was at speed at the factory slot setting of 33 1/3, but when I measured it with the tachometer I found it was set to run fast and it needed to be dialed down. I found this on a couple other decks too. Reason I asked. Thought you were located where it got real hot. My bad. The mountains sound great. |
@ct0517 Re: Setup: I've tried all variations of setup with the VPI/ET/Delos and it always remains a little bright. Yet with the Delos on the Garrard/Ortofon that slightly bright, etched sound goes away. We are using bright and etched with the same meaning. Smooth was probably not a good choice. Rich would have been a better choice for what I hear from the Delos on the Garrard/Ortofon. Not at all rolled off in highs or lows, but an increase in detail in the mid range. More liquid and a blacker background. I really don't expect a carbon fiber arm wand to make a dramatic difference, but, hey, I've got an aluminum and 2 mags, so why not have one of each. The Delos on the VPI/ET was setup at mid point of VTF range (1.75) and, as recommended, level with record (no VTA cranked in or out.) On the Garrard it is set up slightly nose down, tail up The VDH Black Beauty on the VPI/ET is also set at the midpoint of recommended VTF and very slight nose down, tail up VTA. I am not loading either cartridge on either table. My CAT SL-1 is 47k ohms. I tried loading the Delos on the VPI/ET at 40, 80 & 100 ohms. All rolled off the highs too much. I have since made a 1000 ohm loading plug but have not tried it with the Delos on the VPI/ET. No, the CAT has no gain adjustment, just volume. The Garrard appears to be running steady at correct speed. The interesting part is on the VPI/ET rig I am very happy with the VDH, but not so much the Delos. Yet, on the Garrard/Ortofon I am extremely pleased with the result from the Delos. Indeed, with the Delos on the Garrard and the VDH on the VPI they sound very similar. Interesting because these cartridges are so radically different. I think you have a misperception of where I live. While I am in the South, I am in extreme Western North Carolina in the mountains. We do not get those oppressively hot temperatures in the summer (regardless of what Al Gore would have you believe.) |
Sounds like you’re having fun Harry ? IMO - When we introduce a new turntable setup we increase the variations factor ten fold due to different TT stands, Tables, Tonearms, Carts, Gear (loading), etc.... For this reason although changing out an armtube might help a little, it may not be the silver bullet due to the many variations you have introduced. Words in describing what we are hearing mean different things to each of us. for example. You used the words bright, etched, and smooth. To me - bright, etched implies detail is there, but there is setup issues somewhere. Smooth to me implies, nice but rolled off extremities. HF, LF. How are you setting up these different carts on different tonearms and tables. Are you loading them ? Does your preamp have adjustable gain ? ************************ vpi - I don’t envy your "spring". Well ,the way I see it, it all evens out Harry. In summer when you are forced inside due to the oppressive heat, I will be fishing on a lake that I can drink the water from.....well...except if that one buddy shows up with the bad prostate that can’t hold it in, and needs to piss from the boat. Then all bets are off. So does you idler run fast when set in the middle of the factory default 33 1/3 setting ? |
Well, true to @ct0517 prediction the experience with my Garrard has caused my VPI/ET II to demand my attention. Among other tweaks, I think I'd like to try a carbon fiber arm wand. I have two mag wands. Does anyone have a carbon fiber wand they are not using that they might like to swap for a mag arm? |