****Are we to take your words literally ? The cartridge is about 7 inches from the spindle ? Have you come up with ET 3.0, a longer I beam that I have only been thinking about, or are you talking about removing enough lead and having your weights positioned at number 6 on the I beam ? ****
I have constructed an I beam (balsa wood) that uses a leaf spring from one of the regular ET I beams which allows me to to move the counterweights up to 6 inches from the spindle; although not the 7 inches that I implied. With my cartridges which are either medium compliance Vandenhuls or high compliance MM's, the improvement in bass weight
and detail is significant. One other way to experiment with moving the weight further from the spindle is by using the threaded brass weights on the threaded rod that secures the regular lead weights to the counterweight holder. This allows the weight to be further back, and effectively "extending" the I beam.
Speaking of the I beams, no one has mentioned the importance of experimenting with leaf springs of different compliances. I have three ET (plastic) I beams, each of a different compliance. The lower the
compliance the more tightly focused the sound is. Higher compliance springs make the sound a little "bloomier", with an all around easier
presentation.
The use of the higher pressure manifold and Medo compressor was a revelation for me. The improvements were very significant, but I found
that in my system higher than 17 psi was too much of a good thing. 17 psi gave me the desired tonal balance. More than that and the sound was too tightly controlled for my tastes. |
HAVE A LOOK AT THISHi Apbiii – I would much rather be where you are in S. Cal. – it is 3 degrees Celsius here right now about 37 degrees F. :^( In those previous links see Detonearm’s comments in the threads. In the second link is the turntable with air supply that was running an Air Tangent and ET2. A picture is worth a thousand words. If there is anyone anywhere that has a picture of their setup they want to share but can't post for whatever reason - please send me an email. I have no problem creating a special ET2 section in my virtual system page so others can see your setup. I will keep it anonymous. Cheers |
Thanks Ct, I seem to remember reading in past about the hose/ coupling limitation. I have read the comments and discussion on Salvatore's site and found them interesting.
I scanned the threads you linked and did not find anything about ET-2 or pressure. Perhaps I didn't look close enough.
I don't have my setup plumbed in a way that allows me to adjust it from the listening position but I should probably do that. From what I can tell so far I think at 19psi things seem to go a little dead but there seems to be a nice spot where things open up a bit at about 16psi.
I agree that filtration is an important part of the system and while my compressor is located a bit far away in a different environment I probably have more dedicated to filtration and drying than most as I also use the compressor for spraying finish so I have more traps and driers than most. I also have a regulator at the compressor for the turntable line and another filter and regulator at the turntable. The regulator at the turntable is a low pressure large diaphragm unit which may help a bit. I do not have a surge tank at the table however.
Also here in SoCal there is probably less difference between the indoor and outdoor environment than in many parts of the world. |
In fact, the best bass response and stability that I have achieved is with the weights about as far from the spindle as the cartridge is (in the opposite direction, of course).
More to come Hi Frogman Are we to take your words literally ? The cartridge is about 7 inches from the spindle ? Have you come up with ET 3.0, a longer I beam that I have only been thinking about, or are you talking about removing enough lead and having your weights positioned at number 6 on the I beam ? Hi Apbiii - you said “I am running about 15psi but keep seeing 19psi as the sweet spot but I can't tell any difference. What is magical about 19psi?” Why 19 PSI ? In discussions with Bruce above 20psi the normal hose will blow off and another hose type would need to be affixed to the nozzle. This is a conservative number from Bruce. I have used 24 and it did not blow off. But the bottleneck is not the hose – its the ET2 spindle itself - with more than 20 psi coming out of the manifold holes, the ET2 spindle itself starts to resonate/vibrate. When this happens music information is lost – described maybe as “air”, “space” and harmonics. Others can chime in with better words maybe ? So 19psi is used as a number to indicate a threshold give or take a couple PSI. All our system /rooms are different. We will all therefore get varying results. Also the bigger factor IMO is the type of pump /air supply you are using, how clean, dry and stable your air delivery is and most important the condition of your actual tonearm manifold and air ports. I went from the original pump, to a MEDO AC110, to a shop compressor/surge tank, to the Medical pump I now use. Is your pump located in an area that has a similar temperature / humidity as the room your ET arm is in ? This is crucial IMO. Some owners I have talked to have kept these pumps in the garage - during winter or summer with 98 per cent humidity outside. I have designed my setup so that a second ET2 regulator/filter is on the wall next to the ET2 arm. Portable ET RegulatorThe device normally rests in its holder which can be seen in the picture. I can and have taken this second regulator off the holder and kept it in my lap as the music is playing. I then turn the black valve both ways to instantly increase and decrease the air flow to the arm and listen to the effects. There are also reports as Apbiii says where others have seen and read about these PSI numbers. In the past I have emailed with Arthur Salvatore and his members have confirmed 19 psi. With Arthur you can read about it at highendaudio.com and do a search on the ET2 arm. At Audiogon – here are a couple of links that pertain to Dertonarm's ET2 testing. ET2 PSI Link 1ET2 PSI Link 2Daniel if you see this please chime in as well with your extensive experience. We are all sponges here. The truly great thing about this ET2 tonearm and this thread IMO is that all the opinions and recommendations that we are about to hear about can be experimented with very easily by each of us in our own systems. Whether we are talking about lowering or raising the PSI, or adding or removing lead weights and or changing their postioning. We are all talking apples to apples. I have this pent up feeling like I am at a place here where all of us are going to truly benefit immensely from discussions. New and experienced ET2 owners. None of us are smarter than the whole of us here ? Unless Frogman or someone else has come up with ET 3.0 ? Cheers |
On weight placement: whether you want the weights close to the arm tube or far away depends on the cartridge compliance. Bruce has a pretty good write up in the manual which is available on the ET website. |
I have used an ET-2 since they first came out. It is now mounted on a TNT of early vintage (MK I, II??) which still has the spring suspension. I am about to convert it to the paddle ball suspension as soon as I can find some paddle balls and make up a few parts.
I recently plumbed it into my shop compressor so my tone arm is now driven by a 5hp compressor with a 50 gallon tank. I am running about 15psi but keep seeing 19psi as the sweet spot but I can't tell any difference. What is magical about 19psi? |
Great tonearm. I have used one for many years and now sits on a VPI TNT6. High pressure manifold/Medo compressor (17psi), homemade surge tank, damping trough, and AudioNote silver wire in one continuous run from cartridge clips to preamp. I can't recommend this wire enough. In the years I have used this arm I have rewired it three times (Cardas, Discovery, AudioNote). The AN is by far m favorite with much more refined and transparent sound, although some might call it leaner than the Discovery or Cardas, but NOT harsh. My experience with the position of the counterweights is exactly the opposite of Slaw's. I have found that in my setup, further from the spindle is best. In fact, the best bass response and stability that I have achieved is with the weights about as far from the spindle as the cartridge is (in the opposite direction, of course). Coincidence? Tip: for best sound, do not over tighten the adjustment bolts!!!
More to come. |
Thx for the link Ketchup will read through - Olimanmojo, Rushton, Piedpiper, Frogman, a few others helped me to get my feet on the ground with my first ET2 years ago on a nice piano black VPI HW19 MkIV. I hope those guys see this and chime in here with their vast experience.
I still remember once I got it setup I could not figure out why it could not get through the last track. Turned out the original old pump was down 1/2 psi to about 3.0 psi. It was enough to affect it. The ET2 needs at least 3.5 psi if I recall to work properly. A Medo AC110 fixed the problem for $50 on ebay and helped raised the PSI to 7 or 8 psi.
Dover I am looking forward to your pics.
Cheers
|
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Hi Ketchup –
That phoenix wire looks interesting – is anyone using it ?
"the four individual wires are separated from each other where they are exposed in the loop. This arrangement had the least effect on tonearm movement."
You can see this in your system pic. So you tested it out both ways braided and separated ?
Is anyone else using the wires this way ?
LEVELING – heres how I do it. Can it be improved ?
Do not even attempt this if your platter/tonearm basic support are not already level. You guys with suspended tables – I feel for you. You are asking for trouble with this arm.
I don’t use the brass weights for leveling. It takes too long and you are also messing with the most fragile “I think” part of the arm. The Plank. (I Beam). I use Blue Tac and I add it to the top of the lead. If the VTF is 2.0 grams I make up a quick blob of the blue tac and add a touch more weight say 2.2 gms. Leave it next to the platform when not using it along with your level balances.
As the manual says you want the arm to free float.
Blue Tac in place. I position the arm above the lead in groove first and I start touching/tugging/poking the exposed wire with my finger. Lowering the cue lever a bit to see if I can induce movement. I try to see how much effort it takes to make the arm move. When u think ur good bring the arm to the end of the lp position. Repeat. This is where it gets frustrating because of counter forces. If your wires have “little” effect on the arm it should not move. In either position.
Now take the Blue Tac off – and try lowering the arm again at the start and end of the lp positions. Is it coming down straight ? If yes you should be good to go.
The wire effect is ALWAYS there you can’t eliminate it. What we are trying to do is reduce it. How detailed (anal) you are in doing this is the difference I feel between making this arm sound like nothing else out there or just a fabulous arm.
If your platter/arm setup is not level before you attempt the above you WILL pull out your hair doing this. Something could have gone out of level. Like the guys with the suspended tables. This is the main reason I feel most “previous” owners sold these arms. They are probably better off with pivot arms.
Can the above be tweaked better ? Is there a better technique for doing this ?
Recommendation – buy a test MM Cartridge whose tracking range is in the low say .3 – 1 gram range. Set this one up first. It will test your setup. I feel if you can make this one work well, your 2.0 – 2.5 gm MC will have no problem and will sound like it has never sounded before.
Cheers |
Away on holiday so can't do pics at moment |
Guys I wish we started this thread when I was off work last week. Steve - congrats on getting the virtual system up. yes the counterweight bolt mod. A significant upgrade for me was changing the horizontal/vertical ratio of the arm and how it affects the sound. See the link to the ET2 parts blowout in Ketchup’s first post. I like to call the I-Beam the “plank”. You don't want to be near the end of this plank. Have a look at your “I beam” and where your lead weights are positioned. What number does the lead start at? For the newer owners: Think of this arm as a simple teeter- totter. Physics says the lighter the cartridge will have these weights positioned in closer to the spindle. The heavier cartridges force you to move that lead out on the I-Beam to get the proper VTF. Its really that simple. Teeter-Totter . If you put a heavier person on the teeter totter with you they need to sit closer in to balance things out – remember that? Well if you are the cartridge side this discusses putting a heavier person on the I Beam and changing the horizontal/vertical ratio of the arm which is normally 6 - 1 according to discussions with Bruce. I personally never liked moving that weight so far out on this I-Beam for heavier MC’s. So I ended up replacing the counterweight bolt with a longer stainless steel one. (.75 cents). Also try a brass one or other non-magnetic bolt to see what happens. These details when dealing with stylus vibrations affect things greatly so pick a few different ones and try them out. Counterweight Bolt ModThe one on the right is the original ET2 one. The one on the left is my modified one. It can hold more lead weights. On some older arms this bolt may not screw off. You can get a new original lead piece that slides into the holder from Bruce. This now allowed me to use more lead and bring that whole lead assembly closer to the spindle closer to the number 3 with heavy cartrdiges where I think things are more stable. Now this is the fun part. Order even more lead weights from Bruce or make some – you can get them for free from car shops (wheel rim weights) – the lead is easily cut into shape and drilled). You need the longer bolt to allow room for the extra lead and to allow the aluminum rod to be tightened onto it to hold the lead rigidly. Go ahead start adding lead to get even closer to the spindle. Those of you that try this please tell us what you think of the sound. Before I tried this mod I discussed this with Bruce – this was his response.
Chris
Adding weight in this direction causes an asymmetric load on the air bearing so there will be a point where the bearing may bottom at the end of play position.
The other thing to consider is the suspension system of the turntable, you are adding moving mass, this weight moving laterally may cause the suspension to deflect and change the state of level of the tonearm. Increasing the horizontal inertia can cause increased rumble.
As long as you understand these potential problems it does not hurt to experiment and have fun. Thanks
brucet
Give it a try. BTW – how many of you are using the brass rings as counterweights ? Read page 32 of your manual - they are for leveling only but thats another subject I really want to talk about too later. You want to be absolutely rigid with this arm. The brass could move on the arm as it is raised and lowered and resonate. If you need to use the brass rings to get your proper VTF get more lead and a longer bolt. Sorry for the long post and any errors ahead of time. Cheers Chris |
Ketchup – I had a look at your setup. You have done some really interesting stuff too in your system. You have gone in front of the manifold with the wiring. You were considering some new medical wire ? .003" in diameter with .001" thick teflon insulation. Do you have the details on it? Chris, I don't know exactly what wire I'm using right now as it came with my tonearm, but I think it's some kind of van den Hul wire. It's solid core, silver in color, with clear insulation that might be Teflon. The wire enters a tube that I added to my arm wand immediately behind the cartridge pins. From there, it loops over the platter and enters a Teflon tube that runs to my phono preamp. A copper braided shield covers the Teflon tube between the end of the "loop" and the phono preamp. The copper braid is grounded at the preamp. The four individual wires are separated from each other where they are exposed in the loop. This arrangement had the least effect on tonearm movement. The tonearm leads are soldered directly to the Lundahl step up transformers in my phono preamp. No RCA connectors are used. I should take a better photo of the wiring to show exactly what's going on. As you mentioned, I would like to try some smaller diameter silver wire with even thinner insulation. Phoenix Wire has a lot of wire that would probably work for us. I doubt Teflon insulation over 0.001" is necessary, but I'm only guessing. I wonder what minimum gauge wire can we get away with using in this application. Phoenix Wire claims that no order is too small, but if there's a price break for larger quantities, I'd be interested in going in on an order with some of you guys if we can all agree on the wire specs. |
Ketchup,
I thank Chris for putting me on to this. Adding some more weight onto the bolt so the weights can therefore be moved in closer to the spindle. ( It doesn't take much, I used the smallest brass weight provided with the tonearm and tightened it all up with the stock threaded adapter) Ideally you should add another lead weight. Maybe Chris will chime in here to help me out. He's much better with the technical reasons than I am.
The end result was a slight increase in transparency across the frequency range and cleaner, clearer more musical bass. |
Slaw,
Your pictures came through. Looks good! You mentioned on your system page that you also did a cantilever bolt modification. What exactly is that? |
I recently took advantage of the .5 upgrade I had Bruce perform years ago by adding a compressor, and like Chris am running 19 psi. The results were eye-opening. I also made a DIY cable and am using my own routing scheme that has taken all of the pressure/force on the cantilever out of the equation. I'm using the latest Discovery wire. It is a heavier guage, but in the way I've constructed/routed it, everything is all good. I hope the pictures I'm posting will come through. |
Had stiffer bracket that joins armtube to bearing tube manufactured
Replaced wire with van den hul silver - hello radio campus ( rf )
Replaced wire with copper litz from Sumiko tonearm box, hung below pivot and soldered directly into MIT cable approx 2' behind the bearing tube in the centre of the range of movement
Placed small cupboard door magnet under bearing tube - this provides electromagnetic dampening on eccentric records. Hi Dover – I’d love to see a picture of the set up, wiring, magnet and remanufactured bracket. Is there any chance of posting or linking a pic ? You can’t leave us hanging like that. How long have you had your ET-2 ? Ketchup – I had a look at your setup. You have done some really interesting stuff too in your system. You have gone in front of the manifold with the wiring. You were considering some new medical wire ? .003" in diameter with .001" thick teflon insulation. Do you have the details on it ? Here is some general information. All the ET-2 arms say "Eminent Technology Tonearm 2" regardless if they are ET 2.0 or 2.5 versions. If anyone has a regular ET 2.0 you can get Bruce to upgrade it to a high pressure manifold to be able to use it at a higher pressure and its doesn’t cost a lot to do this. It doesn’t have to be a ET 2.5 to use the higher pressure. Both mine are high pressure manifolds and use the same Timeter Aridyne 3000 medical pump at 19 psi. So as upgrades go consider: 1) there are two spindle versions 2.0 and the 2.5 the later being visually larger in diameter – about 5/8 inch in diameter for 2.0 versus about 6/8 inch for the 2.5. Sorry could not find the tape measure with millimeters this morning. 2) Two manifolds – a) the original ET 2.0 that you see mostly being sold used now. Again this manifold can be changed over to a high pressure manifold and b) the newer larger manifold that goes with the 2.5 spindle which only comes in one version. You can still however run it at lower pressure if you don’t have space/facilities to run it with higher PSI. In discussions with Bruce here is some info I got from him. REMEMBER THIS IS JUST A GUIDELINE. Based on the cartridges you are using consider the smaller diameter ET 2.0 spindle resonates at 5-6 hz. The larger ET 2.5 spindle resonates at 3-4 hz. Aluminum armtube – good all around performance. Carbon Fibre armtube– Lower Compliance MM’s and medium MC’s Magnesium armtube – Lowest Compliance MC’s Again the above is just a guide. WIRING I really like the wiring on my ET 2.0/high pressure manifold. It is black teflon coated braided wire. It came with the arm when I bought it used. But for the life of me I haven’t been able to figure out the brand or if its still available. My ET 2.5 is using Cardas wiring and although it sounds great, I don’t like the wire itself for this arm. I have been moving the arm between my direct drive, idler and thread drive tables comparing the sounds of them. It bends and curls too easy and it is not pliable enough for me. I will be replacing it and the reason I asked my question initially. ET 2.5 wiring - Cardas 33 awg Cheers Chris |
Dover, what was involved in having a custom armtube bracket made? That sounds like a good mod. |
I still have the original 2.0, but plan to upgrade to the 2.5 manifold soon. I run Discovery wire from the cartridge pins, looped over the top and directly into my Herron Phono stage via Eichmann plugs. That was the single most noticeable cable change I've ever made. I have Fo.Q tape in a couple of places on it, including along the I Beam. I have a Lyra Delos on it. I adjust VTA on almost every record I play, to the extent that I'm looking to get Bruce to replace the worn out arc bloc. I don't know how folks can live with one VTA setting, given the difference in vinyl thicknesses, and variations within a thickness. I've had mine for about 15 years. |
Mods for ET2
Removed heatshrink from arm tube
Removed foam from arm tube
Removed teflon filler from headshell and replaced with carbon fibre
Had stiffer bracket that joins armtube to bearing tube manufactured
Replaced wire with van den hul silver - hello radio campus ( rf )
Replaced wire with copper litz from Sumiko tonearm box, hung below pivot and soldered directly into MIT cable approx 2' behind the bearing tube in the centre of the range of movement
Placed small cupboard door magnet under bearing tube - this provides electromagnetic dampening on eccentric records.
All of these were good improvements. I have found any sort of dampening other than the magnetic described slugs the sound.
Oh and using an isolation transformer on the air pumps, running 2 air pumps out of phase to double the airflow and surge tanks. |
Hello, I currently own an ET-2 and an ET-2.5 tonearm. My ET-2, which I bought used, came with a Wisa air pump and Airtech surge tank and my ET-2.5 came with an ET branded Takatsuki pump (also bought used). My ET-2 has an aluminum arm wand and my ET-2 has the magnesium arm wand. I don’t know if my ET-2 is the low pressure or high pressure version. As I understand it, there were two linear tracking arms offered by ET. The ET-2 and the ET-2.5. The ET-2 had a smaller OD (outside diameter) spindle and a smaller ID (inside diameter) manifold than the ET-2.5. There was a high pressure manifold option for the ET-2 that had reduced air bearing clearances (.0007" less ID to the manifold according to this Stereophile article). All ET-2.5 arms were the high pressure version (thanks for that bit of info, Ct0517). There are also three arm wands available- the original aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber. Were there any arms with the ET-2.5 designation? My ET-2.5 says ET-2 on it, but it’s clearly the larger manifold and spindle. I have always assumed that all ET-2.5s just used ET-2 bearing housings. If that’s true, none have the ET-2.5 designation. Anyone? There are two things that set the ET arms apart from others, in my opinion. The first is the arc block or VTA block as stated in the parts list on ETs website here. The arc block is the post that the bearing housing rides up and down on during VTA adjustment. Its purpose is to keep overhang exactly the same as VTA is adjusted by not only moving the bearing housing up and down, but in an arc. Do any other linear tracking tonearms have this feature? The other feature is the decoupling of the counterweights from the spindle. The I-beam connects the weights to the spindle. The I-beam is connected to the spindle by a thin piece of metal situated vertically. This lets the spindle move side to side as the cartridge follows an off centered LP without even moving the tonearm weights. This results in a much lower horizontal effective mass. Do any other linear tracking tonearms have that feature? |
