Offset – Just to be clear in my previous post when I say offset - I mean anything that is not a perfect zenith IMO as an end user – since vinyl records are not perfect (both in their physical attributes and the way the masters were cut) – no tonearm out there is able to come to a perfect zenith. Anyone disagree with this ? Some however 1) allow you to come closer to Zenith in setup, and 2) keep it there during play. In this hobby I personally want a tonearm that can do both 1 and 2. Fwiw - I have had two 420’s on two ET2’s simultaneously. I was able to tell by listening which one IMO came closer. This forced me to fine tune one of them. |
If you have long lead clips, forget it! Now sounds very linear, with some added emphasis in treble Exactly what I found Mark. The added emphasis with me decreased with break in. But again it was very linear meaning it was noticeable over a period of time not overnight. A general question to all. Can a cartridge with known emphasis in treble, if placed at an offset in the groove, cause this “emphasis in treble” to sound like harshness, sibilance, distortion ? |
Thanks for the update, Mark. Keep us up to date. |
Chris/Frogman,
Changed the c'weight to get it out to 6...although I have both I-beams, I have always used the double spring, as I felt it sounded better.
No problems with the lead wires...tucked the extra wire into the arm tube, and it fit OK...close, though. If you have long lead clips, forget it!
This cart is quiet!!! Now sounds very linear, with some added emphasis in treble, which is good, as my 300b setup tends to sound a little dark.
Listened to "Famous Blue Raincoat" yesterday, along with a 45 version of "Rumours"...the additional detail really brings a smile to my face.
Will contine to update you as the cart breaks in...
Regards, Mark |
Hi Frogman – looking forward to hearing more about the project, and hopefully one day sending you my 412 “corpus” to do the transformation. :^)
My current 420 has pin sized blue tack dots making it a little more rigid. It helped
My next step was to crazy glue it like my Empire 4000 diii Gold.
Glad you reminded us. I will hold off.
Note: our travelling 420 has been crazy glued already by the previous owner that donated it. Not sure if he knew the role it would end up in. He is not an ET2 owner – yet. Hope he chimes in here one day anyway. |
Hi Chris, a follow-up on a project that I mentioned a few months ago I would be attempting. I have procured a small piece of cocobolo from a musical instrument (clarinet) maker friend, from which I plan on constructing (with his help) a "mount" for my 420 to replace the flimsy plastic one that is stock. Actually, I will be using the "corpus" (in Nandric-speak) from a recently purchased 412, which I have every reason to believe is identical to the 420's; the two differing only in their stylus assemblies. My hope is that a far more rigid platform, with better resonance characteristics, will improve the performance of the 420. Will give updates as time allows. |
Hi Nikola – thanks for making my morning coffee interesting. We all have our sonic preferences in this hobby. I have to confess I am a bass guy. It is important to me. We all know bass will make you understand how important the room is, both from a sonics perspective as well as not irritating your wife/family, neighbors. The technique I use for bass tuning is very simple. I have Quad 57 my midrange reference in one room. Most of the music is in the midrange. The 801’s are in an adjacent room. I tune their bass until I hear everything that is coming from the Quads midrange. The above arrangement requires a larger room split into two pieces. fwiw and just my opinion - Strategic damping plates are important but a room that has allowed for bass seepage is far more important and effective for bass control at higher spl’s. This however requires a carefully developed understanding with the above mentioned wife/family and neighbors. I think there should also be a separate category for the audiogon forums called Rooms setup / Treatment or something like that. Audigon are you listening. If you can’t make your own panels, get the commercial ones now before they become truly mainstream one day and $50 panels become $500 or $5000 with high end. Sibilance can also be resolved with room tuning. We listen to our rooms. Sorry to digress.. Hi Dover et al Honestly this 420 can be a real PITA on a pivot arm. Its reputation is justified. I think only Henry and Griffiths found some nirvana with it after much tribulation on the MM thread. There could be others. This speaks volumes IMO to their determination. I have listened to it on a ET2 ET2.5 and pivot arms. Two things. One real and one not-real (virtual). First - The 420str is a real physical cartridge. You can touch it and you can feel it. You even bite into it. Here she is the 420 with her two sisters called 412 and 415 Other than their obvious color differences the other differences seem to be in the shoes the sisters are wearing. I asked a question a while back on the MM thread because I thought – there are many cartridge “experts” here. I am not a cartridge expert. They will answer my question. No one answered the question. I can’t remember the exact words I used - something like this. "Looking at the picture how would the very different shape/design of the 420 cantilever/stylus affect the sound and setup requirements over her sisters?" Since asking that question I have heard the 412 and 420 on an ET2 – Unlike the 412 I found the 420 very linear (sic) in the bass, mid and HF’s. To me the two sisters of the 420 based on their shoes, really do look like sisters themselves – but the 420 is like the odd child, even though it is the top of the line model. Is this starting to sound a little like Cinderella yet? Now the second part. This is the part that is not real (virtual). Our hobby is full of gear. All of us piece together a bunch of gear to produce an imaginary state in our rooms. A state that we cannot really see, touch, or smell, but we can hear and feel. I have had the 420 cartridge on my FR64s and DV505. I eventually after much work got it to sound ok - good – but only HIFI good. I wasn’t able to get into the music.... . involving me, like the ET2. The presentation and soundstage of this 420 cartridge on the ET2, is like you're reading a different book, compared to the pivot arms in my room. Sometimes the shoes just fit? After some effort the shoes seemed to fit at first with the pivot arms too – but after some time blisters became evident. So personally would not bother with the 420 on a pivot arm again. Life is too short. Thank you Nikola for the inspiration in your last few posts. I have now added Cinderella to my virtual page. She joins Winnie the Pooh and Goldilocks. What a fun hobby :^) |
Dear Dover, I am involved because of my friend Chris who is
also a 1/4 compatriote of my. Sort of. His parents are from
Macedonia a former 1/2 'brother nation' of my but he
is born in Canada and that explains the nummerical relationship.
Nice guy but be cerefull not to mention the room acoustics
otherwise he will 'furnish' your home: with damping plates.
Regards, |
Nandric - I'm an honorary member of the ET2 club having owned one for many years since the 80's. Unfortunately in a moment of madness I gave it to a friend who bought my old Roksan TT. It will come back eventually. |
Dear Frogman, Those who hear such voices should, I think,
consult a shrink (LOL). I already have so much trouble with
my conscious self so I would be crazy to add the
subconscious one. Besdides I may get involved with Freud this way (grin).
Viva la musica! |
****No idea how Dover and I got involved in this 'wrong thread'****
Perhaps because somewhere in the subconscious there is a pequena voice saying that no one person(a) has all the answers in this wild hobby. And, that in spite of hero worship, the subconscious usually knows where the truth lies :-)
Viva la verdad! |
No idea how Dover and I got involved in this 'wrong thread'. That is to say with the wrong kind of tonearm (grin). Anyway this seems somehow connected with the Acutex 420. BTW also an 'wrong cart'. I am glad to have sold all of them.
Chris , sorry for you but Dover got a much better proposition(s) from me. The first was to compare Glanz 31 l with the 31 E and the second to see what his Andreoli MC pre can do with my Sony XL 44 l (Raul was very impressed with this cart). No conditions of any kind are involved. This btw is 'not done' among friends (grin).
Regards, |
Thanks Chris - I would take up your offer, but alas I cant get the ET back yet. I am having to play the long game on this one. I would be happy to throw it on the Fidelity Research FR64S/Dynavector DV501/Naim Aro if you are interested. |
Hi Dover – I have an offer for you. As the current holder of our famous “420str Celebrity”, I am willing to send it to you next, to the other side of the world - with only these conditions. 1) You are able to resurrect your unique ET2 2) Provide us with your impressions here 3) Promise to send it back to me within three months of receiving it; So that it can be prepared for the next recipient. You see Dover, the way I see it; I am not worthy to just hold onto this crackerjack box cartridge. A cartridge that looks just like it fell out of a model airplane package. Especially with talks of $10 – 15k cartridges on the MM thread, this cartridge which demands nothing more than perfect tracing, needs to be experienced by as many as possible. I figure what better way than sending it to New Zealand. Lets call it our threads version of the blue or red pill. Do you think you are ready for the Red Pill? Offer stands..... |
Glad it worked out, Mark. I second Chris' comments and would also suggest that you check the spring on your I-beam to see if you have a single or double spring. I have found the 420 to perform best with a double spring I-beam; the difference is not subtle.
Keep us posted. |
Chris, hi there,
Thats exactly where I ended up with the Shure V15 - 1 lead weight far far out.
I think with the electrodampening of the lateral tube motion and decoupling of the beam in place, even low compliance cartridges benefit from least weight furtherest out approach. |
Hi Mark – that is excellent news. Was there any difficulty connecting your cartridge leads to the 420str ? The back of the cartridge is angled up - a tight fit with the ET2 armtube if longer leads are used? ...suggestions from others certainly appreciated!. Only thing I would offer up right now is to leave things as they are for a few days to establish a reference point. Then remove as much lead weight as you can to get the weights sitting past 6 on the I Beam scale. Your bass will become ...... well why don’t we let you tell us what it does for you ....... . Some previous hints are in previous pages here on the thread. I like to think of the I Beam as a Pirate Plank. Get out as far as you can on that plank without falling into the water. My I Beam with the 420 str has the base lead weight plus only one thin lead weight on it. Its past 6 on the left side and I can just see the very edge of the I Beam on the right side. Looking forward to hearing about your progress... Cheers Chris |
Recently acquired an Acutex 420STR from another member and just finished the install on my system. Initial tracking force 1.5g, VTA around zero (hard to eyeball to be sure...suggestions from others certainly appreciated!).
The 420 replaced a Grado Ref Platinum. Had to remove a thin lead c'weight, due to the lighter weight of the 420. Counterweight slide is a little past 4 on the scale. My first test track was "Mas que nada", Sergio Mendez & Brasil '66. The sibilance on this track is usually a good indicator to me of cart compliance and treble performance. The cart picked everything up without a problem. My initial impression is that I will be experiencing a lot more detail than the Grado was able to provide.
I'll continue to update the group as I run through my usual evaluation tracks and the cart settles in. Thanks to Frogman, Chris and Nandric for their advise and assistance in making this upgrade!
Regards,
Mark |
Chris,
Thanks for the response. I'll definitely follow yours and Frogman's advice on the 420 search.
My ET2 still has the original Takatsuki pump, and while I have not noted any problems with the pump, I plan on going through the arm completely once I have located a new cartridge. I have a feeling that with my system, any changes in the cartridge/tonearm setup will be noticeable...should be a fun process.
Regards,
Mark |
Hi Frogman,
Thanks so much for the advice on finding a 420, as well as the tip on stabilizing the plinth suspension on the table.
My ET2 is basically the way it came from the factory, with no tweaks or modifications performed. I look forward to applying some of the suggestions in the thread and will definitely keep everyone updated.
Regards,
Mark |
Hi Mark
Welcome to the thread.
Yes a few NOS 420 str do exist. Many of the folks on the MM thread that Frogman referenced, own 20+ cartridges and are on a bit of a roller coaster ride with them. In order to purchase more they need to sell others. I agree also with Frogman to put a wanted post on the MM thread. Somebody that is ready to part with one will respond with a NOS or slightly used one.
My first ET2 came on a VPI HW19 IV and the original pump had a weak diaphragm down about ½ psi. It was enough of a problem to not allow it to complete the last track of lps. That plus the ET2 had been tightened up to much. I took the arm apart and let the parts go to their natural shape. Then I reassembled it using firm but not really tight pressure. The pump – well that area became a bit of slippery slope for me. I went through multiple upgrades, each time the music became bigger and sweeter.
I was reading recently on AS’s site that an ET2 owner has removed all of the mounting / adjusting hardware and linkages, and bolted the manifold directly to the armboard of his plinth.
Cheers Chris |
Welcome aboard, Mark. The HW19 is a nice platform for your ET2; that's what I had for a few years before my TNT6 and it sounded very good. If I may offer a tip: If you haven't done it yet, replacing the spring suspension with sorbothane pucks or upturned metal cones adds a lot of stability which helps the ET2 perform it's best on that table. It might worthwhile to contact member Nandric and ask if he might be interested in selling his Acutex 420. I know that he has been reducing the size of his collection. He would be a reliable seller if he were to agree. You could also post in this thread http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openfrom&8935&4#8935and express you interest to buy one. I have a feeling that you will find one. Good luck, and keep us posted. |
I have been a "lurker" on Audiogon for a little while, but when I saw this thread on ET tonearms, I couldn't resist submitting a post.
I purchased my ET2 back in 1997, installed it on my HW-19 Mk3, and have used it ever since. I recently upgraded my system, which includes a Precision Fidelity preamp, Ladyday+ Mk2 Signature mono blocks and a pair of 70's vintage Klipsch LaScalas. I listen to a lot of female vocalists and Jazz, as well as blues.
I'm currently using a Grado Reference Platinum, but it is getting quite a few hours on it, and I am at the point that I should either re-tip or upgrade. I have never had any issues with the setup (no hum), but would like to make sure I'm using the right cartridge . My question is - should I stick with the Grado or look at another cartridge?
I would prefer to stay with a MM cartridge and I would like to keep the cost at no more than $500. I have been reading with great interest the posts about the 420 STR, but their lack of availability is an issue.
Anyway, thanks for your inputs in advance and thanks for a great thread devoted to a great tonearm!
Mark |
Frogman - the order I went through was -
1st removed inner foam - listening test
2nd removed heatshrink - listening test
3rd modified head shell - listening test
4th added electrodampening - listening test
My personal view on fluid dampening is that it slugs/smears the sound, as does spongy dampening such as foam/heatshrink.
Your experience with the Spectral MCR mirrors mine.
I would suggest you disengage the dampening trough first - so you can hear the other changes more clearly.
Good luck. |
Dear Dover, great stuff! Thank you.
I will definitely try removing the heat shrink and the Teflon insert. When I first got the magnesium wand, if memory serves, I was using a Spectral MCR which benefited from the extra mass and dampening of the magnesium wand; with the aluminum wand it was lean and white to the point of being unpleasant sounding in spite of it's tremendous detail retrieval and speed (Raul?). I did not try your magnet dampening tweak as I use the damping trough with my ET2 and lateral movement is already well controlled; I am intrigued however and will try it.
Thanks again, and I will report back after I live with the aluminum wand a little longer. |
Frogman -
I got considerably more transparency and even less grain when I removed the inner foam and stripped off the heatshrink from the aluminium arm tube with both low compliance ( Denon 103 Garrott ) and high compliance ( Shure V15VMR ) cartridges.
Also I suggested implementing electromagnetic dampening of lateral movement by using fridge magnets early in this post - disappointingly for me, only ct0517 has tried it - a $5 tweak that stabilises the cartridges so much, you get increased output and have to turn the volume down. The dampening increases proportionally with lateral arm movement speed.
By the way magnesium has a lower Youngs Modulus than aluminium, which means it is much softer and less rigid ceteris parabus.
If you want to go one step further, you can open up the cartridge end of the wand ( the aluminium is very thin ), pull out the soft teflon insert, and replace it with a piece of carbon fiber. You can use superglue and clamp it up with a decent vice. This gives you a much stiffer headshell. |
Well, per Bruce T's recommendation, I installed one of my two original (lower mass) aluminum arm wands in place of the magnesium wand (lighter version) that I have been using since purchasing it about twenty (!) years ago. I had been meaning to try the original wand again since returning to MM cartridges about two years ago, but because of the somewhat difficult arrangement that I have of a continuous run of tonearm wire from cartridge clips to preamplifier, I had not gotten around to it. Also keep in mind that I had wrapped the magnesium wand with cloth tape for extra damping, but also adding extra mass.
These are very preliminary observations/reactions, but I must say that I am surprised at the magnitude of change in the sound; with the Acutex 420. It is far from being a slam-dunk in favor of the aluminum wand; in spite of BT's assertion that the aluminum wand would work better with the high-compliance Acutex. The reduction in bass weight with the aluminum wand is striking, with an apparent increase in clarity that I am not yet convinced is not simply a psychoacoustic effect due to the reduction in bass weight and overall fullness. Somewhat paradoxically, the overall sound is leaner while seeming to have less grain in the highs. I need to spend more time with this wand to really understand what is going on, but after only a few sides it has become even more clear that this cartridge, aside from the already and often discussed sensitivity to VTA, VTF, azimuth, etc., may also be unusually sensitive to arm (headshell?) mass in unexpected ways; which may explain, at least in part, the different reactions to this cartridge.
More to follow. |
Slaw - My heart @ soul is in the music , $@^$## the electronics. I agree - I want to share something I came across today. Check out what the lead track is. Groove Into Bits Vol. 1 - Tracklist: 1. Steady on - Shawn Colvin 2. Last days at the lodge - Amos Lee 3. Saltarello - Dead Can Dance 4. Golden Brown - The Strangles 5. Come to the river - Hans Theesink & Terry Evans 6. Blues Walk - Lou Donaldson 7. So Strong - Labi Siffre (demotrack) 8. Il Blues - Sam Lightnin Hopkins 9. House of the rising sun - Cynder Peters 10. Come Di - Paolo Conte 11. Kirya - Ofra Haza 12. Homeless - Paul Simon 13. Wade in the water - Eva Cassidy 14. Money Money - The King Singers My favourite songs on side one of Shawn Colvin are actually shotgun down the avalanche and stranded. Super LP thanks for the recommendation Whether you're in it for the mechanics or the feeling...... that's what we all have to decide. FWIW - I have a room I play with the gear in; it is a form of therapy for me so it really is beneficial, and l learn a lot in there. This doesn’t have to be a big or elaborate room. I have the other room that rarely changes. LPs’s all over the place from previous listening sessions, along with some tape. I really enjoy music in there to get my fix and learn a lot about the music itself in there. If something happens in the first room that I think might be good to introduce into the second room. I go for it. |
I want to say one other thing related to the discussion I kind of created recently. Music. This is what it's all about. Whether you're in it for the mechanics or the feeling...... that's what we all have to decide.
If I was asked, what I could do without, my electronics(system) or my lps, that's easy............ take my electronics, PLEASE!
My heart @ soul is in the music , $@^$## the electronics!!!
By the way, did you hear about the guy who went record shopping @..................
|
Chris, Yes, humour is only as good as it relates to us intimately. The best audio products are those that require and respond to our attention.
And now... for those 6 copies of The Who " Who's Next". lol! |
I used to know a guy that had owned his ET2 for over 15 years. During this time he had 2 wives. During the marital turnovers he managed to keep his ET2, but did give up some other prized gear. IMO – if this ET2 tonearm had lots of shiny metals on it that looked like gold and silver, he may not have been so lucky to hang onto his ET2 this long. It’s a sleeper.
Its already been said here that the ET2 has stood up to the hardest test of all – time. Anyone can buy a 20 year old ET2 tonearm on the used market and make it work. Even if replacement parts are needed they are available at reasonable cost. |
Just a general comment on the ET arm. I know others have had similar comments but here is mine. I've owned mine for over 20 years and just recently when I put in my new armboard I realized how quick and easy it was with an even greater degree of 'getting it right' the first time with even more accuracy than I've had before. It's a long term relationship that is well worth it. IMO. |
Frogman: I tend to agree with the jist of your comments. I do think you misread my assessment of "Aja", as I stated that it is compressed. Thanks for the effort taken to respond so in depth.
I know music is a very personal thing with me and can therefore only conclude that other's feel the same. It is an area that should be carefully discussed with other's feelings at the forefront. |
Ketchup, thanks for sharing the data. The question then becomes: how do the different flow rates affect the sound when PSI remains the same? Did you notice differences in the sound with different pumps with the regulator allowing the same PSI? Frogman, There was no listening done during these tests. I barely had enough time to complete the tests as is and my ET-2.5 is not even mounted on a turntable. I have the data now, though, so listening tests should be possible down the road. |
Ct0517 - I last used my ET2 with a Garrot modified Denon 103. Also used Koetsu Black & Shure V15VMR.
As far as springs go, I really didn't use the spring effect at all. I found that even with low compliance cartridges, when you reduced the horizontal compliance, the bottom end tightened up, but became more and more out of time with the music. TT at the time was a heavily modded Sota Star. The solution I ended up with was leaving the end cap only partially done up, and used teflon wedges partially inserted either side of the "spring" to a point where the initial movement had almost no restriction whatsoever, but the range was limited and ultimately tempered by the teflon. This with the magnetic dampening explained in my earlier post yielded the best results with both high and low compliance cartridges. I guess what I ended up with was virtually a decoupled counterweight assembly with a very gentle progressive dampening via the teflon wedges.
|
Slaw, thanks for your comments. Likewise, my comments are not intended to be a criticism of anyone's preferences or tastes in either music or sound; which, at the end of the day, need to be respected. IMO, commentary and discussion, even (especially?) if it may get precariously close to instigating arguments, is what makes a forum such as this one worthwhile. So, in keeping with that spirit, I would like to offer some followup comments which may help explain our different reactions to this record.
I very seldom buy a recording based solely on it's sound quality. If I like the music and performance, that is good enough for me to want to buy it, and I do seek out recordings of music/performances that interest me that are known to have excellent sound quality. Also, for me, it is rare the recording (LP or CD) of music that I like that I simply cannot listen to in it's entirety because of it's recording quality. But, I do own many recordings that are recorded poorly or are inferior or damaged pressings that make the listening experience less enjoyable than it could be otherwise. Lastly, I do own some recordings with almost intolerable sound quality; but, "The Nightfly" is certainly not one of them.
I originally suggested this recording for possible use as a "reference" for several reasons:
- The first reason was that it is a recording of music that I felt would appeal to a lot of different musical tastes. It covers a lot of ground, and not being intimately familiar with the musical tastes of possible participants in this thread's "quest for a reference", it seemed like a safe bet.
- It is in a rock vein with strong contemporary jazz elements.
- Compositionally, in typical SD fashion, it is very strong (for a pop
recording), and there are many "layers" to the sound.
- It is very strong rhythmically, with a diverse range of time feels.
- Fagen hired a very diverse group of players, each very well suited for the feel of each individual composition, and with very individual musical personalities.
All of these considerations, I felt, would provide a lot of material for
discussion as they related to the abilities (or not) of the equipment to extract it.
Lastly, and not least(ly?), this recording has been almost universally praised by audiophiles for it's sound quality; to the extent that it was "beaten to death" at audio show demos for years after it's release.
So, what could account for our different reactions to it? I suspect that part of it is system balance. I find it telling that you find Aja to be wonderful sounding while I find it to be dark and somewhat thick sounding. Don't get me wrong, I think Aja is a terrific record with fine sound quality that in no way gets in the way of the music, but if judge it's sound quality we must, it is far from one of my favorites.
What I also find really interesting is that our systems have much in common. You use a VPI HW19 MK4, and I a TNT6 with the same platter as your MK4. Our arms are, obviously, the same. We also use the same phono stage; although mine has been heavily modified, and the changes to the sound (more resolution and clarity, less forgiving) would seem to favor your assessment of the sound of Nightlfy, not mine. I am not familiar with the sound of your speakers nor amp. But I use tube mono blocks (Manley 200/100) which are definitely very full and lush sounding. My speakers (either Paragon Regents or Stax F81's electrostats) are very both open sounding in the highs, but definitely not what many would consider "accurate", being not the least bit exaggerated in that range. So, what might all this say about the reasons for our different and strong opinions of the sound of Nightfly:
- the differences in the sound of our amps and speakers are so strong that they, in the case of your system, exaggerate the admitted digititis of the recording; or, in the case of my system, mask it.
- you are much more sensitive to digital distortions than I am.
Thoughts?
BTW, I continue to feel that in spite of system differences, use of a reference recording to judge a piece of gear (cartridge) can be very useful. I think that the key is to focus more on the musical aspects of the recordings ("bass player A plays a little more on top of the beat than bass player B") and not so much on the "sound"; whatever that means.
Regards. |
Slaw – I think you should open up a record store. Make it an internet store with an open chat line to help audiophiles. You would probably make a lot of vinyl people happy picking out good sounding albums for them. But make sure you are your own boss, and don’t have a boss, because he would be upset with why he couldn’t get rid of his Nightfly copies; and other LP’s that don’t meet up to your standards. Just joking of course…not Thanks for the lp recommendations – will search through my lp’s to see if I can find any of them. For someone that has worked in the IT field all his career - my lp cataloguing system really sucks. Its based on my subliminal - I think. I just find what I need. it seems unless there is some sort of 'reference' established regarding differences in what we're hearing, the whole process is for not. Well to me references are like opinions – everyone has one. If you asked 10 audiophiles what their reference(opinon) was for something you would get 18 responses. I have heard this many times on public chat forums like this. Just My Opinion of course. |
Ketchup – that is interesting data on the pumps. Thanks for sharing. When my ET2 and 2.5 were next to one another in the same room I noticed when unplugging one for the other how the pressure changed on the dial of the regulator. If I remember right the pressure on the dial would go up with the ET2 and down on the ET2.5 showing that the ET2.5 inhales more air with the larger manifold. So I had to adjust the regulator up or down to compensate. Here is a pic of the heavy magnesium arm wandI am curious how many prototypes it took Bruce to come up with that length and size of step up. Here is some more information for you guys regarding the I Beam complianceI asked Bruce another question in regards to the I Beam. Single, double, triple. If I add one or two leaf springs the I beam becomes stiffer - less compliant. I have 3 of these ready to swap in - single, double, triple I Beams. I asked him in his opinion, if a stiffer (lower compliance) I Beam would work better with a lower compliance cartridge, and the opposite true for a higher compliance cartridge? Does it not make sense to match up one end (cartridge side) up with the other side (counter weight I Beam) ? Just as a guideline - I realize all our setups are different and we need to experiment on our own. This was Bruce’s response. Chris,
With respect to the i-beams, this is correct: a stiffer (lower compliance) I Beam works better with a lower compliance cartridge.
Hope this helps – brucet My ET 2.5 runs a low compliance MC I have been using a double leaf. I am going to try the triple on it. I find the Acutex 420 works well with a single and double. With the triple it still works but what can happen is if the record is not ideal (flat) the sound can get – I am not good with words – too aggressive to me. Lets put it this way – if you are a driving a truck with a leaf spring suspension on the back. What happens when you add or take away leaf springs to the suspension. Now take that truck down a rough road (representing by the lp). Are you going to want fewer or more leaf springs for a smoother ride. The Ibeam is like the leaf spring but working in a horizontal instead of vertical way. Can anyone tell me what other tonearm out there - regardless of design - allows one to tailor the tonearm compliance to that of any cartridge you are using like this one. Does another tonearm exist like this ? |
Ketchup, thanks for sharing the data. The question then becomes: how do the different flow rates affect the sound when PSI remains the same? Did you notice differences in the sound with different pumps with the regulator allowing the same PSI? Of course, flow rate would not be the only variable. While I don't have any data on this, I am very aware of the beneficial effects of using a surge tank to smooth out the pulses of air; which, presumably, have different characteristics from pump to pump. What were your findings re the sound when using the compressor and higher PSI (and smooth, pulse-less air stream)?
BTW, I have the lighter magnesium wand which may partly account for the positive results that I have gotten with the Acutex 420. I plan on trying the aluminum wand and will report back. |
In closing.... it seems unless there is some sort of 'reference' established regarding differences in what we're hearing, the whole process is for not. That's kind of what turned me off with regards to comparing the Acutex in our differing systems. |
....I tend to post 'in pieces'.
Just wanted to mention that the two lps I recommended earlier, even though they are or the 'digital age', in my view, are again examples of recordings done "right" as opposed to "The Nightfly". I can listen to them and enjoy completely. |
Frogman: I really appreciate your "measured" responses! I, on the other hand, am quite the opposite. I know that I don't take the time to explain my position, so I'll give it a try here.
Steely Dan: I think I am much harder on them, given their history of making awesome records. The Nightfly ( I have two copies), while it is much more open (a somewhat general term I am using), it strikes me as irritating in a way that I can't enjoy listening to it all the way through one side. IMO, it sounds somewhat unnatural and slightly "in your face". My comparison, while not the best, to "Aja", I think is telling.
I have three copies of "Aja", none of them I'm confident are the 'best'. (This is where I may separate from some). I am very aware of different pressings and how they sound. My yellow label ABC seems to provide me with the most enjoyment of the ones I own. With regard to these 3 lps, they are, in my words compressed, (with this one having a wider sounstage), as are a lot of SD lps, but the difference between the analog era and the digital era is apparent to me. While I notice this difference and understand all of what I've laid out, I can sit back and enjoy "Aja" all of the way through. I cannot do this on "The Nightfly". This is even though I love the music! To me, it's all about the enjoyment, the escape, the freedom I feel when I take the time to listen.
I do want to say my comments about "The Nightfly" were in no way a reflection on anyone here, just my personal view. I hope anyone here who's willing to take the time to compare, will respond.
Here are a couple of very good recordings in my view:
Chris Isaak "San Francisco Days"--- sadly out of print
Mark Knopfler @ Chet Atkins "Neck @ Neck" -- again, sadly out of print.
Both worth the price necessary to have in your collection!
I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
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I just did the tests with a 60 gallon air compressor from 2 to 14 psi. The setup was: 60 gallon air compressor @ 120 psi>water separator/filter (5.0 micron)>pressure regulator @ 25 psi>coalescing filter (.01 micron)>pressure regulator>Defender 510M air flow calibrator>tonearm. I updated the chart with the new data: Flow rate chart |
I just finished a flow rate test to see how much air my ET2 and ET2.5 arms flow at various pressures with different pumps (Wisa and ET/Takatsuki). I'm also going to do the test with an unlimited supply of air (60 gallon air compressor) from 1 psi to about 15 psi (the maximum pressure that the air flow calibrator can take). My setup was: Pump>Bios Defender 510M air flow calibrator>Parker air pressure regulator>Tonearm. I tested each arm/pump combo from 1 psi to the maximum pressure that the pumps would provide. Results can be found here: Flow rate chartThe results suggest that the Takatsuki pump flows more air into each arm at equal PSI, but can not provide the PSI that the Wisa can. The results also show that the ET2.5 is less of a restriction to the pumps than the ET2. It flows a larger volume of air at a lower pressure. These results may not apply to all tonearms. As I understand it, Bruce customized some arms for use with specific pumps. |
Frogman,
Thanks a lot! I have the heavy version, then. |
Ketchup, from BT:
****The heavy version has a step at the back to a larger diameter, the light version is tapered with no step. The photo on the web page for the magnesium wand shows the version with the step. Thank you very much.
brucet**** |
Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the light and heavy magnesium wand? |
Further comments from BT:
(-why did you prefer the Acutex on the 2 vs. the 2.5? Does it have to do with the different resonance frequency points of each version?
-why would the aluminum or carbon fiber wands be preferable? I am currently using the magnesium wand and intended to try the aluminum)
**** In both cases, (the ET-2 and the aluminum or CF wands) I was looking for low horizontal inertia to match the slightly higher than average compliance of the cartridge. This component combination worked well for me with other cartridges with similar mechanical characteristics.
With respect to the magnesium wand, if it is the light version it would be a good choice, if it is the heavier version, while it will work it is not ideal. I hope this helps, thank you very much.
brucet**** |
I found his comments about his preference for the ET2 with this cart to be interesting; I wish he had elaborated on the reasons why. Frogman - when you contact Bruce maybe he can confirm this. This information is from Bruce from his testing - it was posted earlier in the thread somewhere near the beginning. The ET 2.0 smaller diameter spindle resonates at 5-6 hz. This applies to regular and high pressure 2.0 models. The ET 2.5 which only came as a higher pressure model has a larger diameter spindle resonating at 2-3 hz. If I have a choice I usually run MC on my 2.5 and MM on the 2.0 but both work well with either. The higher compliance MM's (imo - resonating higher) just seem to work better to my ears on the ET 2.0. Less tweaking involved in setup. So I agree with what Bruce said. With that I have the 420str on my 2.5 right now and it sounds great. |
Slaw, I must say that I a surprised a your strong reaction to the sound of the Fagen "Nightfly" LP. Yes, obviously a digital recording as I poined out from the beginning, but a good one with fine detail, separation and a surprising lack of digital graininess. I have never had such a negative reaction to it like I have had to many other digital recordings. At the same time, while I like Aja very much I have never considered it to be a particularly great sounding analog recording. Certainly a good one, but with some obvious flaws like a somewhat congested sound which is a bit dark overall. Musically, there are times that the slick aesthetic of it drives me nuts, and other times that I think it is a masterpiece of urban-hip studio production with a very deliberate choice of players for each individual song that is very astute. Anyway, that's the beauty of music, it can strike different chords in different listeners. If you like female vocals with a folksy vibe, check out Phoebe Snow's self-titled first LP. Fantastic analog recording and equally fantastic Phil Ramone production; one of my favorites. Keep us posted re your impressions of the Audionote wire.
Regards. |
