I think that Chris is the perfect candidate for a London Decca Reference mounted on one of his ET’s. He understands the arm like few do and has the mindset and discipline to get the most out of the combination. There was something about one of his posts that gave me the feeling that he is intrigued 🤔
Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners
Where are you? What mods have you done ?
I have been using these ET2's for over 9 years now.
I am still figuring them out and learning from them. They can be modified in so many ways. Bruce Thigpen laid down the GENIUS behind this tonearm over 20 years ago. Some of you have owned them for over 20 years !
Tell us your secrets.
New owners – what questions do you have ?
We may even be able to coax Bruce to post here. :^)
There are so many modifications that can be done.
Dressing of the wire with this arm is critical to get optimum sonics along with proper counterweight setup.
Let me start it off.
Please tell us what you have found to be the best wire for the ET-2 tonearm ? One that is pliable/doesn’t crink or curl. Whats the best way of dressing it so it doesn’t impact the arm. Through the spindle - Over the manifold - Below manifold ? What have you come up with ?
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Chris, Thank you for all of the excellent information. I understand where you're coming from. I really didn't think that you'd take my posts that seriously, it was meant to be somewhat humorous, yet I was hoping anyone reading might share their experience with a London on either table/or arm I mentioned. |
Thanks Chris - pretty sums it up. - Why London? I recorded my brothers "world music" LP collection from the 70’s end of 70s to ca. 1980. Garrard SB 100 Decca Grey cartridge, top "high end" Pioneer receiver :-), recorded to a portable JVC pro cassette recorder. After 40 years, these recordings still have this abundant energy, are fun to listen (and in some high level upper range passages sound a bit "relentless", diplomatically speaking.) But: Unforgettable. - safe bet for problems: High quality low friction arm with high lateral mass, as I experienced. - *thinkable* solutions: Such arms with damping (a bit vertical, more of it horizontal) - I’d try London in an ET2 with a good amount of damping. - Or, known working solutions: Unipivots, like Aro etc. with a moderate amount of damping, and the Well Tempered arms. |
@slaw I said in the previous posts I am open to interrupting my current vinyl routine, and put a London on, if, someone sent me one. I know, it would involve venturing to the dark side - Audiophile mode again. 8^0 How many records does the serious audiophile keep in rotation at one time? Any thoughts? Where equipment "sound" takes priority over the music itself. Cartridges are like car tires. I have found that there are people who spend more research time on buying replacement tires for that special car, than the time they spent buying the actual car! If a person has money to burn it's another story. ************************************************** @pegasus Unfortunately for the ET 2.0 and 2.5 owners there has never been a competent "audio magazine" review, that demonstrated the 3 dimensional aspects of ET 2 setup. Being introduced same time as CD might have had an effect. I will re-iterate, if someone can find a good review that goes into depth and shows an understanding of the Armwand, I Beam Setup and Leaf Springs.... show the review to me. So, when we are researching items like cartridges, forum member contributions, carry more weight for me if the person owns the same gear. The way I see it - Frogman and yourself struggled with different versions of this Cartridge. Frogman's London cart is the older 3 pin model. ************************************************ Research from Audio Magazine Reviews. Pegasus Audio magazine reviews usually contain comment sections - was this mentioned ? Pegusus - In one of the better german magazines there was a test of the London Studio which is similar to the Maroon, but using a front and back tie-back thread, instead of only one pulling back. The review sounded somehow surprised by the (even better than expected) sound quality, which Intrigued me. - Is this possibly the best sounding London, at least of the "basic" ones? Any comments from Eric or other London owners ? ******************************************** Some of my research. Martim Colloms and Michael Fremer both had similar experiences to Frogman and Pegasus in Stereophile on the Jubilee and Reference https://www.stereophile.com/content/london-decca-jubileereference-phono-cartridge Martin Colloms re:Jubilee ************************* ^^^ (The last sentence mirrors what can happen with a Linear tracker setup - LOL. If a good setup - good all the way through, (not just at two points like a pivot arm). But if it's off. It's going to be off all the way through.) ************************ Michael Fremer - London Reference) ( should mention I stopped reading Fremer reviews years ago when he reviewed a product (Linear tracker) - found it better, heard the differences, but decided it was not worth the added effort. He got "old" for me from that point forward. His review happened to be lumped together with Colloms by Stereophile, in the same link above.)
**************************************************** So good comments so far .........if I was a drummer like Eric - .......8^0 ***************************************************** Fremer comments continued. But not everything fared as well; in terms of both music and noise, it was difficult to predict what I was going to hear when I dropped the stylus in a groove. Some records that are silent when tracked by the Lyra Titan were full of pops, ticks, and other garbage through the London. ^^^^^^ my comments now. sounding like an audiophile cartridge to me ? ? You know ? the one you use with just those records. I am not looking for another audiophile cartridge. So I ask do any versions of this cartridge do well with large scale orchestral music? Seems the London Reference is the one, the pricey one with the aluminum body. My Verdier platter is all aluminum. It was made from a billet of aluminum. I am assuming an aluminum sheet used to shape the Reference body ? I have worked with Aluminum it bends and shapes fairly easy. The market prices are what they are however ........ That's where I am at. sorry for the long post. |
- Regarding London Maroon / Art Dudley (Listening 156): In the comments about arm matching, Art got the resonance frequencies of the Abis SA1 the wrong way: The horizontal is in his test about an octave lower (centered around 6Hz) vs. vertical (around 12 Hz), not the opposite way round. Assuming the SA 1.2 has only slightly differing vertical and horizontal masses, this leads to a 4x stiffer vertical compliance than horizontal, this is what I wrote, and was to be expected.- I don't agree, that a horizontal resonance at 6Hz poses any problem, but optimally the vertical resonance is considerably higher, which is the case with the SA1. Therefore (and because of the chunk solid construction of the arm) it is expected that the SA1 was (slightly) preferred. But damping would be desirable as also his situation shows. - In one of the better german magazines there was a test of the London Studio which is similar to the Maroon, but using a front and back tie-back thread, instead of only one pulling back. The review sounded somehow surprised by the (even better than expected) sound quality, which Intrigued me. - Is this possibly the best sounding London, at least of the "basic" ones? - Reflecting abouth this review, a suspicion came up: The double tie-back thread is probably for DJ cueing reasons, but... it stabilizes ("grounds" ?) the cantilever better, and must reduce horizontal compliance. Both are very desirable effects - specially in the ET2 arm, because it might lift the horizontal resonance a few Hertz, a few dozen percent. This gives more playground for optimizing the counterweight / spring combos. If buying new - this would be my choice (and using it with the damping trough). - If one can go without the airy-fairy upper highs of the more modern styli, the conical stylus has its own considerable advantages - musical coherence: See DL-103 & Ortofon SPU. (OK, I think the VTF is a bit higher too). |
Gentlemen, Can’t help but once again congratulating the members of this thread. On other A’gon threads if one gets off target he is quickly excoriated and belittled. Not here. The latest example is the discussion of the London cartridges. A few of you share your knowledge and the rest of us learn a lot. Makes me want to run out and find a nice Decca - with a Decapod, of course. Harry |
By the way, fellas, the way to differentiate between a London SuperGold fitted with a VdH stylus and one with an extended line contact stylus is to look on the bottom of the cartridge, on the red plastic of the cheesy mount iirc. Hand written (by John Wright) in what appears to be felt tip pen ink will be either SG1, SG2, or SG3. My VdH Supergold was marked SG2, but my current elc-stylus SuperGold came fitted with the Decapod, with no writing on the bottom of the cartridge (it doesn’t have the red plastic mount, of course). Somewhere in the accompanying literature I saw SG3, though. The Current SG’s are built far better than were earlier samples, mine showing no signs of oxidation on any of it’s parts, commonly seen in all Deccas, and even early Londons. My SG actually looks like a professionally manufactured product! I think it is fairly priced at $1500 (I forget the extra cost for the Decapod, but it’s not much, and well worth it), and requires only 30-40dB of gain. A phono stage with a high overload margin is a good idea, as it puts out a whopping 5mV! Another by the way: the designer of the Trans-Fi Terminator used the London Reference as his cartridge during development of the arm, for what that's worth. |
Frogman, Slaw et al I found this post from bdp24 (Eric) goes back to Dec 20 2015 Its a good post that explains differences between the Londons. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/london-decca-tzar-dst-and-similar-cartridges/post?postid=1287... |
slaw - I hope you buy one so you can report your findings, for my benefit. @slaw Steve - I took an interest in the London Decca cartridge 5 years ago. But it was at the same time as my Quad 57 subwoofer project in Room 2, which took priority. That Sub project went really well. Last few years I have plodding through my library in music lover mode with my "Freedom Fighter" cartridge - a Benz Micro MC3 retipped by Peter of SS. Top one in this picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/jMNhVwaXMUnRZqrw9 It's a great cartridge for playing many records as it makes all of them sound good with minimal VTA changes needed. So, with being stuck inside during winter, I am starting to do more research on the London again; with the objective of coming up with formed opinion based on theory. These "theory" opinions - imo (8^) are worth 10% of real experience opinions. They are good enough opinions though, I think, theory opinions, for spotting a good deal when it comes about. I never buy anything unless it's a good deal, and the Canadian dollar has pretty much killed buying audio items except for maintenance items, like my recently re-tubed RM9 Music Reference amp. Cheers Chris |
Couldn’t resist Steve! I’ve been refraining from engaging lately, both here and in life. It’ll pass ;-) . A pretty good guitarist I’ve known since I was 18 was way more moody than I, and not too long ago drove his Chevy van off a cliff in Arizona and killed himself. He was drunk, but word is he did it intentionally. Suicide by driving? The most deeply miserable musician I’ve ever know (a great guitarist and songwriter named Dan Bernard, with whom Los Straitjackets’ bassist Pete Curry and I were in a band with in the late 70’s) drank himself to death before making it to 40. Took Evan Johns ’til he was 60 to do the same. Another is a guy whose fantastic first album you may have: Emitt Rhodes. Very talented, very unhappy. But he’s a smoker (Jazz cigarettes), not a drinker. I don’t know whose idea it was, but the cover of his recent album is a photo of him looking to be sobbing. Weird. |
There is a London SuperGold fitted with the Decapod (which replaces the horrible stock mounting bracket, making the mechanical bond between pickup and arm much more secure) on ebay right now. It has just been serviced by John Wright, fitted with a new extended line contact stylus. The UK seller has it priced at just under $1100 US, plus about $20 shipping. The Reference has a much better housing (machined from a block of aluminum) than all but the Jubilee, finally addressing the microphony inherent in the thin stamped tin housings of the cheaper models. Is it worth $3500 more than a SuperGold? The Jubilee splits the difference, but I hate it’s looks. All the London’s are improved over the Decca’s (I’ve owned various models of both, even two different versions of the London SuperGold, one with a Van den Hul stylus, the other a elc), with tighter tolerances and attention to detail. Better tracking, less sibilance on vocals and hard piano strikes etc. Still maintaining the astonishing immediacy, in-the-room presence, thunderous bass (better have a good arm ;-), explosive dynamics, and sheer "aliveness" Deccas are renown for, making most other designs sound "polite". Not as clean, pure, and "easy on the ears" (some find them brash, in-your-face) as high-performance MC’s, though. |
frogman - In the meantime, I’m working on getting up the nerve to buy a Decca Reference $😱$ @frogman Do you think the nerve to buy that Decca Reference, is superseded only by the nerve to play it every day ? Especially on those cold days when some Scotch, Wine, Slivovitz, ....,(fill in the blank) accompanies the music. 8^0 The official London Cartridge website http://londondeccaaudio.com/ shows the various models, stylus in each model. (pricing is from Needle Doctor) Reference - Ultra low mass fine line - $5000 Jubilee - Extended Line Contact - $3000 Super Gold - Extended Line Contact - $1500 Gold - Elliptical - $1200 Maroon - Spherical - $950 Professional - Spherical - Surely the Reference model comes with more than fancy body work and a different stylus to justify its price ? Can anyone elaborate ? |
Thanks, Chris. Great suggestions. **** Did you try the phono stage cheater plug with the ground removed ? ***** Yup, of course, **** separate the wires the last 12-18 inches before they go into the phono. **** Have not tried that. Wires are a twisted pair for each channel; unshielded from cartridge pins to smiley face and beyond to just above manifold. Then, above the manifold each twisted (braided) pair goes into its own individual length of Teflon tubing all the way to where each wire is soldered to the back of the corresponding RCA jack inside the phono stage. From the point that each twisted pair goes into Teflon tubing, both “tubes” together go into a length of copper braid over which is black insulating sheathing. The phono stage end of the copper braid has a copper wire “pig tail” which goes to the grounding lug on the phono stage. From that same point where the pig tail is soldered to the copper braid, a short length of each of the two Teflon tubes exit the copper braid/sheathing and each of the four individual wires are soldered inside the phono stage. I have wanted to try going totally unshielded the entire length of wire(s) for quite some time which would allow me to try your suggestion of moving each individual wire around. Great suggestion. A couple of points: I have no grounding issues whatsoever with any other cartridge I have except the ATML170OCC; although to a lesser degree. All MC’s are dead silent. Also, I experience essentially the same degree of grounding issues with the Decca in the Alphason and Grado tonearms which I used before acquiring the ET2 and the Decca. In the meantime, I’m working on getting up the nerve to buy a Decca Reference $😱$ Regards. |
You guys have excellent memory! Not according to my wife ..... 8^( Regarding the Hum and Buzz with the Decca. From what I recall Frogman you are running a straight shot from the cartridge pins soldered into the phone stage connections directly. Left ground right ground left signal right signal. I run in a similar fashion but with unshielded wiring a direct shot (3 feet in length), and terminating using WBT plugs. My wires are separated once they leave the armwand. 4 separate wires hanging in a happy face loop, cause minimal air bearing interaction - but, not being braided all the way can be more susceptible to hum and buzz. What I did to remove the noise. Did you try this? Go behind the phono stage and separate the wires the last 12-18 inches before they go into the phono. With the phono on, the record NOT turning- turn up the volume and start moving each wire individually - one at a time. U will induce noise with each wire movement. Once the first wire is in a position that is quietest, use blue tack to keep that strand in place. Repeat this process with the other three wires. By the time all four strands are done all should be quiet. Did you try the phono stage cheater plug with the ground removed ? Also If someone is using regular shield L and R phono cables and you have noise - try picking up the preamp / phono box and move it 12 inches in all directions. Frogman the damping trough mystery with subdued noise when it is engaged; a weird phenomena since the damping trough is not electrical. |
You guys have excellent memory! Yes, London Decca. Possibly the most frustrating of all my audio experiences; certainly of those in analog playback. The Decca makes a sound that, in some respects, is the best I have experienced in my system, When I say “best” I refer to the ability to let recorded music have more of the sense of aliveness and to move with the forward impetus that live music can have. Tonally, while it sounds somewhat “old-school”, it gives individual images a degree of tonal density that I love. However, as Chris remembers, no matter what I do I can’t get rid of a deal breaking amount of ground buzzing and humming. As far as tracking goes it has always surprised me that it tracks better than its reputation would suggest. On my ET2 the best tracking cartridge in my humble stable of cartridges is the Monster SG2000. The Decca doesn’t track nearly as well, but is acceptable with most recordings and has the most trouble, as expected, with densely orchestrated orchestral recordings. I agree that the magnesium arm tube is the way to go. Likewise, use of the damping trough does improve the Decca’s tracking; not hugely so, but a definite improvement in difficult musical passages. The cartridge is so alive sounding that it can afford the very subtle “slowing” of dynamics that the use of the trough seems to cause with some cartridges. Now, here is a bit of a mystery. As anyone who has ever struggled to find the best grounding scheme for their audio system knows, it is all a bit mysterious why some things work and why others don’t. The hum/buzzing that I experience with the Decca is not subtle. I can reduce it to a level that with fairly aggressive music I can just about ignore it, but as I said it is ultimately a deal breaker. When I lower the “paddle” into the trough’s fluid the level of the buzzing is reduced slightly. Huh?! Why on earth (pun) would this be? Not a huge difference, but an obvious reduction. Thoughts? |
From the recent London cartridge posts here, I did find a thread started by, to my surprise, Jean Nantais - on the London Decca. I attach fyi. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/decca-cartridge-experiences\ I found comments from Frogman and Dover within the thread. I have restarted my winter ritual of pulling 4-5 unknown records every day from my collection, listening to them and cataloging - electronically and physically. Unless a London cart drops from the sky into my lap 8^0 - I will remain in music lover mode this winter. |
To the Et2 owners here, I learned on this "ET2 on Linn" linked thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et2-on-linn-lp12?highlight=et2%2Band%2Blin... just how passionate these Linn people can be. 8^0 Good post by Pegasus, imo, I especially like this part. Pegusus @daveyf I learned over the years on AudioGon, that there are people in Audiophilia with years of experience, much money spent on gear, who can’t hear differences between the turntables themselves. One assumes because they have never did a Goldilocks setup where just the turntable was the changing factor? Why else otherwise? From my personal experiences; and not to dish the various VPI, SP10 Technics, Jean Nantais Lenco, all fine tables in their own iterations that I owned (and do still own the Sp10 and Jean Nantais Lenco); I discovered that they were all ....bottlenecks....... to the ET tonearm. This was realized when I was mounted the ET 2.5 to the Verdier and it went to another higher level. I sent a picture of my ET 2.5 and Verdier La Platine setup (an American/French) collaboration to Mr. Verdier in France, when he was still alive. His comment back to me was "What is this strange looking, high quality tonearm you have mounted ?" It was "outside" of his Audio box, but he could tell it meant business. The ET 2.0 and 2.5 are little known in Europe and likewise Verdier La Platine little known in the US. Much better known in Canada, else I would not have found one 10 kilometers from where I lived at the time. Daveyf - IMO If one heard the ET on the Linn in past years and found it a good combo, I have no doubt if one were to "expertly" mount an ET tonearm, in its correct iteration based on the cartridge being used, to the newest version of Linn - that one would be very satisfied. |
Hi Davey, you’re outside of the fenced green pastures of audiophile correctness if you mount an ET2 or ET2.5 onto a Linn. But outside the fence, there’s life too! Because the ET2 / 2.5 is not a heavy arm it’s feasible, probably needs "expert tuning" of the springs. Caveats are two: The leverage of the arm tends to tilt the subchassis slightly from one side to the other when playing an LP from beginning to end. And there’s a second issue that can be resolved with a Linn accessory / modification: The Bespoke spokes, that stop the subchassis from rotational modes, but leave the subchassis vertically decoupling. This is crucial because rotational modes are only very mildly coupled to a radial tonearm (they counterhold the vast majority of these forces within the horizontal bearing, except for slight dynamic imbalances (in the horizontal plane). With tangential arms thr inertia of arm and counterweight don’t compensate external forces. So rotational modes lead to slight, but constantly varying horizontal movements of the bearing and cartridge suspension, and therefore a subjective instability, in effect like a wobbly skating force. These modes are "tracked" because usually the horizontal resonance of the arm is below (or around, and not better,) the frequency of these rotational modes. The Bespoke modification has some slight drawbacks, it seems, but it is in effect quite brillant and will work wonders in this (specific ET) situation. |
I have NOT read through this ..'extensive' thread, but I wonder if anyone is still using the ET2 with a Linn table. Back in the day, this was a pretty common combo...and one that worked very well. Today's Linn is far more transparent and resolving than the vintage model that typically had the ET2 arm back in the day. So, another question would be how great the arm would sound on a current Linn Radikal D Klimax version..and if anyone has actually tried that? |
Hi Chris - yes I remember that frogman has direct experience with a Decca London, although not all Londons are created equal, you could try it. Although it also waits for being mounted in a Thales Easy arm... sending a cartridge between continents needs a bit of research how to do that in an economical way. I think fluid damping is necessary with the Decca on the ET2 or 2.5. Taking Bruces numbers, I doubt that "my" "heavy" setup will essentially change resonance characteristic compared to the lightest setup (in numbers: ca. 49g eff. mass with cartridge vs. 37g). It’s a not really considerable 30% difference, which results in ca. 15% difference in resonance frequency. Eliminating a major problem normally means considerable changes. Ie. a 15% resonance frequency change is IMO usually less important than to introduce damping. As the London Deccas come with a very "clean" spring with practically inexistant damping - which leads to some of its qualities, overdamping with it's sonic issues goes one or a few mile with that cartridge... The Grado wiggle vs. London dance is a bit like senior gymnastics vs. voodoo dance. |
@pegasus (if you are disenchanted with your London) - Send it to me I will mount it and report my findings here. I have been curious about that cartridge for a long time. A good winter project and winter has come early here. 20 degrees Cel. below where we should be this time of year. So much for global warming. 8^0 @frogman I think Frogman has one , an older version/ from what I remember? had grounding issues due to the common ground pin (3 pin) arrangement ? If he sees this maybe he can comment on the mechanical setup/tracking ability achieved - aside from the noise issues common to the older ones. Is the damping trough a nice to have or absolute necessity with this cart. As we know the damping trough - slows - things down. |
Hi Chris - thanks for your thoughts! As you might remember I already owned the ET One and bought the ET2 about when it came out, and the physics behind interest me and I try to understand, master & use them since a long time... and I actually like to adjust & optimize the arm :-) The London cartridge has a very uncommon combination of very high horizontal vs. very low vertical compliance. (ca. 40cu or more, vertical is below 10 cu). With conventional arms this leads to a one octave separation between horizontal and vertical resonance. So, the cartridge does somehow the same "thing" with normal arms as the ET2 / ET2.5 or other tangential arm do with normal cartridges, (air bearing or mechanical passive arms) or the Moerch DP8 or the Dynavector arms: They split the resonance frequencies (of "normal" cartridges) too. With such cartridges, I think Supexes were similar, you end up with two times the stretch of resonance frequencies - which is critical. It results in an optimistic 12 Hz vertical resonance and 3 Hz or even lower horizontal resonance. My London cartridge was restored and optimized by a swiss guy who learned / was trained & worked for Garrot Brothers. It has an even higher horizontal compliance than the usual Deccas (leading to lower VTF) The lack of damping in the suspension (which provides a highly linear and probably also frequency-independent spring force) makes damping IMO a necessety. My small magnet is simply not enough, though it works very well in normal situations. It sounded very good in pressings that worked. I use.d the new long i-beam, single spring, lowest counterweight far out (to bring this stiff vertical compliance to a rel. higher vertical mass). And no it was not the low resonance of the i-beam / counterweight that made the thing slightly instable. And neither do I see a real indication that the low resonance frequency in itself was the problem: The MMC1 has a similarly low horizontal resonance (ca. 3Hz) on my ET2.5 combo. My feeling is also that other cartridges work more linear with wide excursions: They are more bullet proof, and "behave" better or / and are implicitely more damped. It is BTW principally by no way easy to tune a tt suspension to fit / isolate a highly untamed vertical resonance of not far above or around 10 Hz from floorbourne vibrations. |
pegasus@pegasus Without more detail, the carts "mechanical behavior" we know - is greatly influenced by the I -Beam counter weight set up, Are you using a single, double or triple leaf spring ? Long or Short I Beam, and are you set up for the highest vertical inertia ? ******************************************************** https://www.needledoctor.com/brand/London-Decca Decca • Output impedance: 2k ohms • Dynamic compliance: 15x10-6cm/Dyne • Channel separation @ 1kHz: >25dB • Load impedance: 47k ohms I don’t own a London cart. The Decca’s have medium compliance so just by the numbers alone they straddle between the ET 2.0 and 2.5 at 15 x 10-6cm/Dyne. Carbon Fiber or Magnesium armtube. I would set up on the Long I Beam. Double leaf spring set to the highest vertical inertia**. **Least amount of weights furthest out on the I Beam. Try with no damping trough first. . |
"Do the wrong thing!" Having trouble with my London cartridges mechanical behaviour, having tried quite long, I concluded that I simply wasn’t able to apply enough damping, the thing was "meta-stable", although there were quite a few elements of greatness. So, what do to do? I had as an interim replacement of my MC phono stage a Lehmann Black Cube SE in use for my London, set to MM cartridges. So staring into my not (...) empty cartridge drawer, I recognized a slightly dusty beauty lurking within: A B&O MMC1, bought from a B&O dealer, seeing it’s lonesome place in a window, this was maybe beginning of the ’90s. So out with London, in with B&O. Well... magnesium wand, ET2.5 spindle and whatever counterweight will be: "The wrong thing". From time to time refusing correctness is indicated by your mental health officers: Yes, the horizontal resonance is around 3Hz, the vertical considerably higher but not visible. As you may have noticed in this thread, I have my counter-orthodox opinions in case of low horizontal resonance frequencies (not in case of vertical resonance). Theories besides: This combo works absolutely *phantastical*, it digs deep into the grooves and is highly musical as well as very uncoloured and naturally liquid. It also has deep and quick bass. It stands out of the way in communicating the music and constantly bringing this amazing slightly shuddering feeling when you enter different worlds from LP to LP, hearing amazing musical, timbral, expressive nuances. So my quintessence is: From time to time, try things that don’t work, as far as anybody knows. And be amazed by the unexpected joys of reality vs. correct thinking. It is indicated for mental health - and for sheer pleasure & guilt. The MMC1 is one great cartridge – as probably the MMC2 is too - and it works in whatever ET combo, I have to assume. This is probably thanks to the B&O engineers being *the* kings of precise engineering and damping in turntables/cartridges. Remember: The actual (eternally circulated) knowledge about optimal tracing and suspension tuning / damping of turntables comes from... the B&O stable. What great lab! PS 1: Soundsmiths SMMC1 is the ca. successor of the MMC1, except that it uses a "massive" ruby cantilever instead of a small saphire tube (with superbly mounted paratrace diamond in the original MMC1). PS 2: It "feels" to me like every cartridge with saphire cantilever has/had a very special quality I very much like: The Sumiko Talisman S, my "special" Jan Allerts MC 1Mk2 (and MC2 Finish) cartridges, as well as the MMC1. It is a grainless coherence and ultra-quickness through the whole range through midrange into upper treble. It’s a cantilever that kind of disappears from the mechanical formula. |
I recently was returned to AMC (the analogue manic clinic.) It started with staring at the cold black turntable and dust accumulating there on. We know that seeing dust & cleaning is dangerous to many in average predominantly female persons, leading to well known manic episodes. Where at some places undefined flying objects appear, in the latter case defined objects disappear in a flying mode. Including sometimes dear and important things. (I admit havin some messie traits). The more serious part: I had a fight with my London pony on the ET2.5 which has its damping trough inabled, but with moderate eddy current damping provided by a small magnet (far away from the wiring). So I still intend.ed to model the complex spring mass interactions of the ET2 & ET2.5 and I asked Bruce Thigpen (once more) for the +/- precise masses involved with the ET2 & ET2.5, and quote his given data for completeness of infos on this board: - original aluminum wand mass: 12 grams - Joint insert into wand is 6.5 grams - ET-2 spindle 23.5 grams From measurements, roughly: the lowest vertical effective mass is - about 12 gram, original wand with 7 gram cartridge, - Vertical effective mass increases about +2 grams for the 2.5 spindle. The lowest measured horizontal effective mass is - about 30 grams, original wand and 7 gram cartridge The second part in my next post: |
Hi Walt - it depends. Is it a beige colored cabinet like in the links below - newer - as opposed to the older orange cabinets ? I would not worry about the hours since they are hospital grade. They are all used to a certain hours / time period then decommissioned - leases etc.. A wholesaler will go into the hospital and buy XX of them with varying usage. These are the sellers on ebay and the like. If possible ask the seller to open the back panel and send you a picture of the insulation. This is the part that can start decaying on the older orange ones. Is the insulation in good condition - not discolored or frayed, some of it falling off ? If possible ask the seller to put a load on it - hook something up to it - and verify that the internal regulator turns smoothly. On older units this can get sticky from water hardness and not being used. This is an issue but not a showstopper,as you can just close it (the regulator) permanently - this puts the compressor on full out PSI mode - and add an external regulator instead. But the external one will cost another $50. If the insulation is in good shape and the regulator is good then the $250 range is a good price. imo. They are $2500 us dollars new. ***************************** Shipping For shipping it’s like a floorstander speaker so needs to go on a pallet. I would do a search on medical whole sellers in your area. You might find one available locally or within driving distance and save on shipping. As I am in Canada..... I got soaked on shipping costs for my 2000 plus duties/customs - the shipping ended up costing 4 times the price of the great deal I got on the unit. But my 2000 was like a ... picture a Barn find, very few hours and even the 12 volt battery was showing a full charge. But I am still using the 3500 - keeps on ticking. 8^0 The Compressor/Pump can be as we know an audiophile journey on its own. We have discussed here how to test ones pump.... for noise going into the audio system. ******************************************** Timeter Aridyne System- how it works - from their site The system works by drawing and filtering ambient air through the air intake. The air is compressed to 80 psi and then cooled via the internal cooling coils which condense the moisture from the compressed air. The moisture is collected in the condensation trap and automatically drained into the evaporation tray. The cool, dry air is then regulated to 50 psi and delivered to medical devices through multiple outlets. the 3500 model is $2500 us dollars new https://www.global-medical-solutions.com/Allied-Healthcare-Timeter-Aridyne-3500-High-Flow-Medical-Ai... the 2000 model is $3000 US dollars . It also has battery backup - so your turntable will slow down but your tonearm will not be affected saving the record from skips in a power loss situation. https://mfimedical.com/products/allied-healthcare-timeter-aridyne-2000-medical-air-compressor This article shows the differences between them http://www.alliedhpi.com/images/z10-00-0081.pdf Cheers Chris |
Thank you, Chris. I've very much enjoyed reading your comments on this thread. Here's the thing: I cleaned up the ET arm pieces after the flood and boxed them up for a very thorough cleaning later. That box and a few others disappeared from the "secure" storage facility I used at some point, so I want to go ahead and get another ET2 should one become available. |
Hello Walt Sorry to hear about the flood. 8^( when you say "lost":, do you mean in the literal sense, as in never found, or maybe went with the flood debris as part of the insurance process? Reason I ask - Water cannot hurt an ET 2 - it can be cleaned up, parts sourced from Bruce, and Bruce can also verify operation of the VTA block worm gear. Chris |
Greetings, all, I know this isn't a for sale/wanted thread, but my ET-2, AirTech tank, Wisa pump, and cartridges were lost in a flood a couple of years ago. I've built a new house, have replaced most of the rest of my hardware (just found another Oracle Delphi II), but it seems that a complete ET-2 is rarer than an Acutex 420 in the Sahara desert. Do you gentlemen know of anyone who might have one to sell? Am wondering if I should just buy a turntable I'm not interested in on Ebay just for the ET arm. Many thanks, Walt, who has a Medo AC0110 and big surge tank waiting.... |
Hi Kevin - yes, she is settled in and in charge. New guests are amused watching her stare down a 90lb Black Labrador Retriever and have her way with him. Felines and turntables - its make me shudder. With one swipe she can take out my drive system - string - easy to replace 8^0 , but the tonearm wiring or cantilever (much more expensive). |
Sary - the base ET 2 does not work with 2 psi - you need at least 3 psi. this could explain one reason for your skipping. I have helped friends setup systems in the past. Regarding the regulator. Type - Ensure your regulator comes with a water trap. Like this. https://photos.app.goo.gl/eomCEWeVxLZxqn9U9 Location - as close to the air bearing as possible. Less chance of moisture getting in after air passes through it. Usable gauge scale range - makes no sense for example, to have a 100 psi scale for measuring 3 psi which the base ET 2 requires. Regulator Spring tension rate - higher PSI firmer spring rates to better engage/accuracy for the regulator, and the reverse, softer regulator spring rates for lower PSI. ********************************** Regarding your comment on the convenience of pivot arms. Convenience will always win out in the end, especially as one ages. I have a Dynavector hybrid / pivot arm in my second room I use occasionally to test out records. The key here with the ET tonearm / pump system is. IMO, to get a setup going that is as close to turnkey as possible. You throw the switch - no more fiddling. My pump system lives in the back bowels of the house. A forgotten setup except when needed and then it is critical. Our Savannah cat has shown an interest and climbs up on it occasionally. Maybe I can teach her to throw the switch for me and really make it turnkey. 8^0 I purchased the big boy Aridyne 2000 with minimal hours a couple of years ago, for a good price, but the shipping and customs was high. You would not pay customs being in Hawaii. It is a backup for when my older smaller Aridyne gives up the ghost. But it keeps on going..... |
It is Hawaii; humid, but not crazy wet :) At the moment I went back to my Audiomods arm and while I think was preferring ET-2 there is lots to be said about simplicity of simply swinging and lowering the needle into the grooves; no more jumping even on demanding tracks.... I still want to re-visit ET-2 setup in the future and when looking again into my exact setup I guess there is logical explanation why there is water and most of it just at the air bearing. Since I had Motor Guard Filter/water trap in front of the buffer tank, it is likely that the highest pressure in my system was just in short PVC tube run between the buffer tank and arm; there was no filter here any more. Highest pressure would mean most condensation... Now, I am thinking, if I would actually have a filter/water trap after the buffer tank and then have pressure regulator just in front of the arm problem could be much better? Could someone who is using Medo AC0110 please share exact configuration (pump, hose, tank, filter, regulator,...) that works well; would love to give it another try. |
@sary, Interestingly, your question regarding if any of us have tried a DIY cooled copper coil set-up... I did something similar when I had a constant running compressor...I had my plastic air line, coiled up in a cooler with ice water before it hit my regulator. It turned out to be a "fool's errand". The Motor Guard filter was a God send. Good luck. BTW, Mexico or Hawaii? |
sary Sary This is exactly my solution that I implemented many years ago. Do research on Timeter Aridyne - 3500, 3600, 2000 models. End of the road - no fuss no muss, no filters, no traps, no bottles, just keep it in a separate room (hidden from the wife if need be) with the airline running along the baseboard to your setup. See pics 12 and 43 on my AudioGon virtual system. If I recall back the noise level is around 55-60 db. You can buy them used on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/TIMETER-Instrument-Corp-ARIDYNE-3500-Medical-Air-Compressor-System-/2916073... |
Hello, OK, understand, might try the setup with storage tank in the future. At the moment I got exactly following setup: Medo AC0110, 4 ft of 1/8 vinyl hose, air filter/water separator, second air filter (disposable filter as per ET specs), silica filled humidity filter, another disposable air filter, 0.6 gallon buffer tank, 2ft of 1/8 vinyl hose connected to the arm. With Medo pump I am getting about 10-12psi (0.7-0.8 bar) measured at the tank (about 2 foot of hose ahead of the arm). I looked at possible compressed air air-dryers, but this solutions are really bulky and expensive... Looked at possibilities to build a copper tubes system (or use a condenser from AC or refrigerator) where compressed air could At the moment, I get condensation everywhere; in my first water-separating filter, silica filter gets water saturated, I can see water in clear pvc hose entering the arm and finally I get water coming out trough air bearing..... Might be that here in Hawaii is just too warm and humid for this type of arm? Obviously, possible solution would be buying a bottled industrial air, but I guess it is just a bit over what I am prepared to go for; it is enough having to take cooking propane bottles to be refilled every so often :) |
@sary, When I said "run constantly" I was referring to when you're listening. A possibility is to get a 5-7 gallon air tank and the necessary parts (air pressure gauge, cut-off switch, etc....) so the pump will operate long enough to fill the tank than cut itself off at a desired setting and then back on at a desired setting. The tank will have a drain valve and you most likely will still need your filter/s. I used a Motorguard "toilet paper" filter that worked wonders. It also serves to buffer any pulsing from a compressor. Using a storage tank also keeps the need for buffering, lower and saves your compressor and helps keep noise a non-factor. |
I use a bottle of pressurized air, this comes from an industrial gas tank company. It’s not "free air" anymore, but it holds for a pretty long time, at least with my ca. 0.7 Bar optimized high pressure bearing. I think it’s somewhere around 2-3 l/ min. The bottle keeps 30 liters, filled with ca. 200 Bar at the beginning. The quality of the air must be very good... ;-) It’s from the swiss alps. Try to order it to Mexico... ! Jokes besides, I think in Mexico you might get similar industrial air, and you might ask about the humidity of the air under normal air pressure situation ("exhaled" ;-) |
The fact to consider is that there is pretty high humidity over here, but this happens always, even on "dry" days... There is a challenge when one tries to run a full 360 degree air bearing in Mexico or the Amazon. Adding moisture to the air bearing will have the same effect, as adding water to the oil of a combustion engine. This is not a good environment. The air pump system makes up IMO 50% (EFFORT not COST) in the set up of the solution. Was first using original aquarium AT pump at about 2psi and then upgraded to Medo AC0110 which delivers about 10-12psi trough my "buffering tank". This is not going to cut it unfortunately .You are trying to run a Porsche 911 at the track with snow tires. Recommend a pump system which eliminates the moisture at the pump, and a regulator / water separator near the air bearing, that allows you to see the PSI and moisture level near the air bearing. How long is the air line - pump to air bearing ? Does the PSI get lower along the way. It is an indicator that water / moisture is getting in the line, if you are losing PSI. |
Hi, I am wondering if any of you is having troubles with water condensations in the air bearing section? I got ET2 that I refurbished (changed manifold sealing rings, removed and cleaned really well the manifold as well as aluminum tube that rides inside the manifold, etc...) but have a repeating problem with humidity condensation. Was first using original aquarium AT pump at about 2psi and then upgraded to Medo AC0110 which delivers about 10-12psi trough my "buffering tank". I run even double filters on input as well as water separating filter and then even added a silica air drying filter; still get condensation visible in clear tube where air gets into the tonearm as well as getting bubbles coming out between the manifold and the aluminum tube. Result is that this compromises how the arm glides and makes the needle jump the grooves when playing. By cleaning everything with alcohol I can get it to work well again, but it will just soon return with same problem. I am using AT33ptg2 cartridge tracking at 2.1g, all mounted on SP10-mk2 turntable. If anyone experienced similar problems and found a solution please share your advice as I am sadly at the point of removing ET2 and replacing with conventional arm.... |
Regarding the JIG ^^^^ I have installed the ET 2.0 and 2.5 on a dozen ? different tables of various design. During this time I have removed and re-installed the tonearm in whole or part maybe 70? times - mostly due to cart changes. Audiophilia Nervosa phase. An AudioGon search on "Goldilocks and the Three Turntables, represents a milestone in a way for myself, and reveals much, in regards to my personal adventure. Now regarding the JIG itself. IMO - the key to an easy and successful installation is "Flexibility" in the "Jig" and the "turntable design". I can share thoughts on what I mean by flexibility if anyone would also like to share here. I am on the forum sporadically through the summer more so later in the fall . Hope everyone is enjoying their summer - or winter - 8^0 - down under. Cheers |