Ct0517: Regarding Timeter pumps.....with all due respect to Ct0517, the over-riding issue with Timeter has been that they "farm" out their products to sub-contractors, IE: wholesalers. This, in of itself is a major issue. So, in order to get a part or to try and talk with a human,... this takes a whole lot of patience and time. Additionally, you'll have to deal with the (sub-contractors, wholesalers)... (a Major Pain In The Ass) x 10!
(My personal experience had me making a claim on my credit card against the sub-contractor/wholesaler).
I can only hope that Frogman sees this (bit of information) as a positive (change)!
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...and I'm the "bad guy"? |
Slaw, sometimes the best course of action is to look the other way and ignore silly provocations. In spite of that, and as I have said before, I continue to feel that you may have some interesting input for this thread given the passion for music and this hobby that you have demonstrated at times. It is for that reason, and in the hope of keeping things on a more positive track, that I will address your concern.
Ever since my post of 8-03-15, and one which seems to have caused you some consternation, we have discussed or touched upon the subjects of diction, bullfrogs, herrons, wives, beer (and the provenance of one), the cost of trout, and even the fact that it is drummers who get the best chicks. Oh, yeah, almost forgot, we also discussed silly things like musicians' timing, musicianship in general and received invaluable set-up tips and a great deal of very interesting data for and about the world's greatest tonearm; AND welcomed two new participants to the thread. Is it any wonder that this continues to be one of the most interesting threads here? So, given this veritable cornucopia of interesting topics, why you choose to stay on the dark side is a bit of a mystery to me. I won't take your obvious confusion about our "private" "conflict" (your words, not mine) personally; but, while I prefer to keep these things private, you have made them public so I need to set the record straight.
From my Audiogon inbox, correspondence from you to me in reference to the "material" you sent me:
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slaw
February 15, 2014 1:17pm
(****)
Just keep it. I need to not be stressed out.
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I am sure that you simply forgot about this part of our correspondence and if you would like further discussion about my impressions of the sonic effects of using the 6"x10" (or so) piece of plastic material that you sent me let's please do it privately. I think this thread is better served by sticking to discussions about matters related to the great ET2 or fun and friendly banter.
BTW, Chris, whoever said it was drummers who get the best chicks? I always thought the saxophone was the best chick magnet. Just ask my wife :-) |
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So is that guy in the video on anything Frogman ...or maybe his pants too tight for the family jewels ? Chick Magnet ?? :^( Not.... I am getting a lot of mileage out of Dorothy ... don't you think ? SLAW
Ct0517: Regarding Timeter pumps.....with all due respect to Ct0517, the over-riding issue with Timeter has been that they "farm" out their products to sub-contractors, IE: wholesalers. This, in of itself is a major issue. So, in order to get a part or to try and talk with a human,... this takes a whole lot of patience and time. Additionally, you'll have to deal with the (sub-contractors, wholesalers)... (a Major Pain In The Ass) x 10!
(My personal experience had me making a claim on my credit card against the sub-contractor/wholesaler). Sorry things did not work out for u Slaw. At least it was with a $100- 200 bought used pump ? I mean it could have been worse. I don't know. How about an expensive record cleaning machine ? As always use discretion to ensure the condition is good. Buy from a trusted seller. The Aridyne Timeter Line work great on the ET 2 delivering Arizona like air. Timeter is part of the Allied Healthcare group. To talk with a live person about parts and support just call them direct. Allied Healthcare1720 Sublette Avenue St. Louis, MO 63110 314-771-2400 800-444-3954 They are very generous with their time. Have a look at the one on the left.A'gon'er Banquo363 owns that beast. |
Dorothy's technology is definitely eminent. Personally, I like a little mileage :-) |
I do own that beast (the Timeter aridyne 2000), it's a wonderful beast. I use it to concurrently run an et2 (HPM), an et 2.5, and a pneumatic isolation platform. No problem.
Unless it's a motor problem, pretty much everything else about these pumps is user serviceable. All the needed parts are available to order. Timeter wouldn't sell me parts (I have no idea why not) but rather sent me to a distributor--Mercury Medical. They were very nice, so in the end it was no big deal--and definitely worth the trouble. |
Slaw, could you tell me which of my post you find offending and maybe why? I have no problem with disagreement. But I know sometimes my tiredness of repeated misinformation pushes me for words that fit my feelings. :-/ |
Frogman
Personally, I like a little mileage :-) I also have no problem with a little mileage...as long as properly maintained, .....and with records. :^) |
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Regarding your photograph, Frogman...
A real audiophile is one who looks first at the turntable and tonearm in the background. I - almost - did.
:-) |
The woman in Frogman's link is unique and special. It's obvious to me that she knows how to handle a record. After all do you want your expensive albums to really end up like this?Probably a fun night..but I think you will hate yourself in the morning. Seriously now, is there a finer sight than a woman that knows how to properly handle a record ? This is very important as it also means she will be able to handle something else really well too. :^) I of course refer to sensitive Audiophile feelings and fragile ego's. What were "you" thinking? |
Pegasus, A real audiophile will get the picture in canvas, to avoid glare. :) |
Fall is in the air. Felt like shopping this morning. Here are Four opportunities Gents and (Ladies) First one in the US. Damn that US dollar. A Base ET2 with the HPM (manifold) version (from the description). Includes damping trough You can tell it is a base ET2 and not the ET 2.5 by the overlapping (over the spindle) counterweight cap. The parts look clean, clean, clean .... Comes with extra leaf spring I Beams. But they appear to be all singles. Those on the thread that have possibly been confused by our discussion of this advanced setup - see the pics in the ad. *************************** Second One - ITALY ET 2.0 that was upgraded to an 2.5 (according to the seller in the ad) Google translation is also my friend :^) Not sure if it is a HPM model. Ask the seller. *************************** Third Opportunity - USA A Base ET2 - includes damping trough. Part of an elaborate setup. Here the pump has more value than the arm to the seller. (I like his speakers which can be seen - just saying) *************************** Fourth Opportunity - GREECEThis fellow has already had 9 offers according to the ad. A Base ET2 with High Pressure manifold and includes damping trough. Have a look at the manifold. It has a Green bubble level on it. You CANNOT do the final set up of the arm this way. (This will not take into account the wire influence) Just saying....:^) Happy Hunting & (not affiliated with any of the ads) |
Hi ye all! Did anybody ever try a Decca in the ET2.5 (or ET2 arm)?
I once did with an ET one and was not blown away - it didn't quite fit, but this was with a rel. light subchassis turntable, which acerbates several problematic aspects: High horizontal, quite low vertical compliance (one third!). Subchassis resonance above the horizontal resonance frequency of the arm/cartridge system.
I assume, but don't know, that using the decoupled counterweight could help here really. The question being:
Which stiffness, which weight/distance.
My feeling with decoupling and the rel. high compliance in the horizontal plane goes into the direction of
far out weight, with medium to low stiffness spring.
But I'd like to hear of real experiences, not virtual ones, or concepts. Of the latter, I have enough myself :-) |
Pegasus, I tried a Decca "London" in my ET2 years ago. What I can tell you is that the problems that I encoutered with this pairing had more to do with grounding issues that I was never been able to resolve. I still own that Decca (three pins/shared ground pin) and for reasons that I cannot explain the only arm that I have been able to use it in with marginally acceptable levels of hum/buzzing was the Grado "Signature" arm that I had years ago. With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages. The fabled Decca immediacy and explosive dynamics were there and something almost indescribable that says this is what live music sounds like. Very frustrating experience because of the noise problem. All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Every once in a while I will take that old Decca out again and try "one last time"; no better. Aargh! Have wanted to try one of the new generation Deccas for some time. |
The Londons made since they have had four pins are better in numerous ways than the older three pin versions. Not only less noise, but different stylus profiles, improved tracking, tighter assembly standards, etc. There are now three different models, the main difference between them being the design and construction of the cartridge body housing, the moving parts being very similar. |
Thanks a lot Frogman! The wiring is an issue for sure, but the EM-field situation is actually the cause, and the noise is the symptom. And the ET2 / wiring / Decca system seems to be very sensitive. What turntable do you use, and how close are other power supplies? |
Frogman - With the ET2 the ground noise was completely unacceptable. Of course, I tried every conceivable "fix" to no avail. Still, when I listened through the noise, the Decca magic was there. I did not hear (as one might expect) tracking issues any worse than with the other arms; except in very demanding orchestral passages.
.....All this was before I went direct to preamp with continuous run of tonearm wire. Now, with the continuous run and naked wire the noise is horrible and even worse. Yes...but once one has **successfully** run naked through the woods with the bears. There is never going back to wearing clothes. :^) I found that dealing with interference a lot like the James Bond movies; you know where he is trying to lift the diamond from the vault - while keeping from being burned/destroyed by the laser beams. The laser beams represent this interference. ** With the stylus on the still record (not moving) unmute and slowly raise volume. 4 strands of phono wire behind the gear rack. Move the first wire strand a little this way - oh the noise! - a little this way - noise gone. A small quick dab of blue tac to keep it in place. Next strand please. 3 more times..... The success of these James Bond maneuvers are highly dependent on having good access to the back of your gear. If your set up is one that to accomplish the above would require you to become a temporary contortionist ? Forget-about-it .....Running naked through the woods I mean... Stick to shielded cables and a more closed in sound. fwiw It was impossible for me to set up my pivot arms in this fashion as the wiring played havoc with the pivot arm tubes action (wanting to race to the spindle + antiskating) I believe the ET2's big advantage (even over other linear trackers) is the Freedom it gives you (lots of rope for the Audio Hangman) to experiment with wiring. It doesn't need the wiring for damping like others. But then if its operation is not well understood - the wiring also becomes the main reason for its downfall - Achilles Heel. 10-26-15: Pegasus
...... The wiring is an issue for sure, but the EM-field situation is actually the cause, and the noise is the symptom. And the ET2 / wiring / Decca system seems to be very sensitive. Detecting emi with an am radio. Found this to be a really good primer on Ground Noise, EMI or RF - for those unaware. Ground Noise or RF 10-26-15: Bdp24
The Londons made since they have had four pins are better in numerous ways than the older three pin versions. Not only less noise, but different stylus profiles, improved tracking, tighter assembly standards, etc. There are now three different models, the main difference between them being the design and construction of the cartridge body housing, the moving parts being very similar. Thanks for this info Bdp24. Think I may have have found my next cartridge, if when I decide / need to acquire a new cartridge one day. |
Thanks Ct0517 & BdP! I am wondering that the conceptually very similar London air bearing arm (based on the Cartridge Mans's Conductor arm), with similar wiring, and at least these four "naked" unscreened (or five!) wires without screen for about 15cms, is the recommended arm for the London cartridges. It want hum, I'm shure (not the cartridge :-).
I suspect it's something to do with a missing ground link from the arm to the preamp. Does the original ET2 wiring has a 5th wire? Mine certainly does, but I have a different wiring & routing to the original one. |
Thanks Ct0517 & BdP! I am wondering that the conceptually very similar London air bearing arm was "built for London" cartridges... (based on the Cartridge Mans's Conductor arm) - it must have functionally similar unscreened wiring, at least these four "naked" unscreened (or five!) wires without screen for about 15cms.
Could it be that it has something to do with a missing ground link from the arm to the preamp - does the original ET2 wiring have a 5th wire? Mine certainly does, but I use a different wiring & routing to the original one. |
Pegasus
I may have missed it, but have you made twisted pairs with your naked wire runs?
Cheers |
One aspect of the London/Decca cartridge design that influences arm choice is the differing lateral vs. vertical compliance figures, they being 10 X 10 (-6) cm/dyne Vertical and 15 Lateral. I know the ET arm has differing moving mass figures in the two planes, but whether or not they align (or conflict) with the London compliance figures I don't know. Whatever arm is used with London's, it has to have as stiff and non-resonant an arm tube as possible, and the best bearings one can afford. That benefits all cartridges of course, but London's put a LOT of energy into the arm.
Another thing to know about the cartridge is that it likes to be loaded with unique amounts of resistance and capacitance. The Reference model is at it's best with 15k resistance and about 220 pF capacitance. I was tutored in Decca's in the 80's by Harvey Rosenberg, and he liked the Decca's of that time with a LOT of capacitance, like 0.5 mF! |
Oops, one other thing: London's put out not only a lot of mechanical energy, but electrical as well---5mV! You will need a phono stage with a pretty high overload margin, and lower than average gain, about 40dB being a good figure. |
Richard
Yes i have two twisted silver wires running left and right of the tonearm. They are mounted to the tube via three very small pieces of double sided adhesive foam strips, to hold the wires and prevent them from touching the metal arm tube. They "exit" the arm connection bending a bit up and then down in a wide radius to the plinth, where they are supported again with an adhesive foam pad. And there is a separate ground wire to one of the arm screws.
With careful wiring dressing the arm is completely free in movement, and very sensitive to the smallest lateral imbalances, as it should be. |
Pegasus et al
have u considered using a DIY Faraday cage for the last part of the wire loom - the part that doesn't affect the spindle movement right after the wire loop to where the wires go into your phono.
A sample Faraday cage recipe. For around wires.
1) Small teflon tube.
2) Larger teflon tube around smaller tube.
3) Brass / copper around wires to which a ground cable is attached at the end furthest from the phono.
4) Finish off with attractive audiophile sleeving :^) - optional.
The cage will capture all the crap and send it to the ground wire that you attach to your preamp/phono ground.
This is good option if your rack/gear setup design does not allow for the James Bond maneuvers I discussed in my previous post. :^) |
Chris, that is exactly what I did . It helped a great deal with MM's which tended to have grounding issues although not nearly as severe as with the Decca, but with the Decca it is still a problem. MC's have never been a problem. For anyone who is interested, Michael Percy (website) stocks all necessary items including Teflon tubing, copper mesh and sleeving. |
Pegasus - a few suggestions for hum
TT Checks :
Check the chassis/motor earthing on your SL1210- is it earthed to the wall ?
If so, then earthing to pre will create ground loop.
Check for continuity between TT earth and spindle to ensure platter is earthed. If not then there is an internal earth lead in the TT not connected.
Personally I've always got lowest noise by earthing the TT chassis/platter/motor through the power cable. If the TT chassis etc is earthed to the preamp you are putting noise into the phono ( assuming a single ended system ).
Arm Checks :
Unplug the phono cables/earths etc from the pre.
Check for continuity between your tonearm earth and the earth on your Decca phono cable with the arm not plugged into anything. If it is continuous then you will have an earth loop if you connect both the tonearm earth and signal cables to preamp. It is a long time since I had a Decca, but if I recall correctly some had the body and signal earth strapped at the cartridge end.
If the tonearm earth is truly separated electrically from the cartridge signal earths, then I would take the arm earth to the chassis and wall rather than the preamp. This is because any noise picked up by the tonearm earth would be dumped into the signal path in a single ended phono if you connect the tonearm earth to the phono pre.
ET2 Wiring :
My experience with single stranded silver wire was bad. Started picking up local radio stations and all sorts of rf. Twisting the wires helped but did not eliminate the rf.
I eliminated the rf completely by going to a silk copper litz wire. Even without twisting it in pairs there was no rf.
In both cases the wiring was continuous between cartridge and phono input.
Hope thats some help.
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- Frogman - as u r a New Yorker, I wanted to mention I was very touched last night watching the NY Mets - KC Royals baseball game; when the camera focused on Billy Joel and the PA system played "Piano Man" with everyone singing. What class ! Go Mets Go - those damn Royals took out our Toronto Blue Jays..... :^( ***** Pegasus
Yes I have two twisted silver wires running left and right of the tonearm. Another example of how the ET2 design allows you to be inventive and ingenious with the wiring. In this case Pegasus a picture would be worth a thousand words. Dover....Started picking up local radio stations and all sorts of rf. Twisting the wires helped but did not eliminate the rf...... Attention Attention. We seem to picking up radio and RF. Immediately invoke 007 maneuvering. and while at it please bring up that Faraday cage up from the vault as a backup. This seems to be a very persistent strain Sounds like disco(love the Bee Gees btw) :^) |
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******* YELLOW STICKY ET 2 THREAD - FACTORY SETTING OF PSI - REGULAR AND HIGH PRESSURE MANIFOLDS ************
I reached out to Bruce to help shed more light on how our manifolds work - both regular and high pressure HPM models. He responded and I believe answers the questions for our thread. Comments welcome.
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Bruce
Was hoping to shed some light for ET2 owners on our thread regarding how the setting of PSI on our manifolds was done.
A couple of questions.
1) Are the set screws in the manifolds set up differently for different PSI's ?
2) Does setting a higher minimum PSI manifold (i.e. 19 PSI minimum), mean the spindle/manifold (gap) is smaller, tighter. How I came to ask this.
My ET 2.5 which you set up for highest possible psi 19. It continues to dominate over my digital. I also own an older ET2 High Pressure Manifold. I have noticed without air applied, that pushing my spindle through the manifold on the ET 2.5 is tighter, than the spindle going through the older ET2 manifold. The older ET2 HPM will also work with a lower psi, example 7 psi.
Appreciate any information you can provide.
*********************************************************
Chris,
The pressure drop across the set screws define the restoring force and part of the stiffness of the air bearing.
The tolerance between the Manifold Inner Diameter and the Spindle Outer Diameter determines the lifting pressure as a function of flow rate through the set screw. Without a restoring force or pressure drop across the set screw, the bearing will lock up, so you always need a higher air pressure in the manifold housing as compared to the pressure at the surface of the spindle.
The high pressure manifolds have a slightly tighter tolerance between the spindle and manifold, they also use a set screw with more plating to restrict the air flow around the threads to create the increased pressure drop (the difference between the pressure in the manifold housing and the pressure at the surface of the spindle).
It does not hurt to slide the spindle in the manifold bore without air, the resistance you feel may be the surface finish roughness on the hard coat anodizing as well as tolerance.
I hope this helps, thank you very much.
-brucet
*********************************************************
Happy Listening |
Chris, that is exactly what I did . It helped a great deal with MM's which tended to have grounding issues although not nearly as severe as with the Decca, but with the Decca it is still a problem. MC's have never been a problem. For anyone who is interested, Michael Percy (website) stocks all necessary items including Teflon tubing, copper mesh and sleeving. |
Oops! Sorry; this new iPhone is driving me nuts. Go Mets! |
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"It ain't over 'till it's over" yes - they are in deep doo doo now - Down like the Jays were 3-1. In today's game have your pitcher like in game 1 - once again throw close to their lead off batter (who always swings on the first pitch) This time - make it even closer. Moustakas will really lose his cool this time and run into the field at your pitcher. He will be ejected. One up Mets. All is fair in sport - that's why there are rules. Cheering from this side of the border :^) more Billy Joel Until the Night One of my favorites. The lead up from the 4:00 minute mark to the climax gets to me every time. For the romantic - a good one to crank up for those times when you put yourself in big doo doo with the wife. You know...a successful marriage requires 1/2 dozen songs like this ...ready to play at any moments notice :^) - |
Hi all - interesting bits & pieces!
Ct0517: interesting to hear more from internal design parameters of Bruces bearings. Some time I'll make photographs of my wiring etc.
Dover: The wire experiences are very interesting, as they are real findings. I'm not convinced however that the reason for the RF issue is solid core or silver, it could be the insulation environment of the wires affecting HF reception too, or the smaller wire diameters. As always the observations are true, the causes sometimes can be more complex than expected.
Were the silk litz wires individually isolated (HF litz) or just the whole bunch? (Besides HF detection / diode-property could also be a cold soldering joint, but I don't suppose that).
My turntable still has the original alu plinth (not too long anymore), but the motor is fed by batteries and the tt as such has no connection with the mains when running. grounding a "raw" alu plinth surface is a PITA...
The Deccas by definition have each channel ground connected ("matrix" summed through the vertical coil). So the ground loop is there for the small EM-field buggers to sneek behind and find. Luckily they oversee the possibilty under certain circumstances - but which? Hum is a dark asian martial art, teached under monumentally wound trees and learned by the nasty little buggers. There is some hope though in the light swords of master Yoda...
Your check list will be very helpful for many in trouble! Like a friend who messed up the ground connection on his new, outstanding phono stage, complaining about everything except his wiring arts.
- Generally, I find that one considerable advantage of low impedance MCs is that they don't need screening through bypassing / dumping external EM-fields through their low impedance.
It's certainly a drawback that exactly the type of cartridge that is more sensitive to capacitive loading - and therefore the sound of the dielectric too - needs screened interconnects. IMO & IME screening doesn't help the sound quality except for eliminating potential hum. |
Pegasus -
The copper litz I used was the same wire as used in the Sumiko headshell wires - each of the +R -R +L -L legs consisting of multi stranded litz - each strand within the bundle being individually insulated with silk. This ran from the cartridge pins to the side of the TT and was soldered directly into a very short pair of stripped ( unshielded ) MIT MI330- total loom was about 15" to phono. Also I did not have the arm grounded either. No hum or noise with Shure V15vxmr or various LOMC's. Like you I am not a fan of shielding signal wires where possible.
Is your TT chassis & platter grounded ? If so how ?
|
Pegasus - Generally, I find that one considerable advantage of low impedance MCs is that they don't need screening through bypassing / dumping external EM-fields through their low impedance. +1 Dover - Also I did not have the arm grounded either. No hum or noise with Shure V15vxmr or various LOMC's. In many talks with the fellow that made my Wire Loom a few years ago now. He has confirmed to me that from his own professional experience/discussions with his customers; that in his opinion air bearing tonearms provide a level of isolation that pivot arms can not match. He has not had one customer with a pivot arm be able to use a loom like this. He makes similar looms for pivot arm customers; but they plug into the back of the pivot arm hub and there is a faraday cage the last foot or two near the phono stage. Depending on the design of the preamp/ phono. My preamp sits to the immediate right of the TT on the next rack. I sit beside the preamp. (hence no need for remote) . The design of the preamp/phono has the phono to the back right. If it was on the left I could have used wiring about a foot shorter. Just sayin... also Regarding shielded cables, I still own some Purist Audio Venustas phono cables. They are nice cables and are well made. On the "audiophile perception" used market, they are worth as much as a used base ET2 in decent shape. With that very small phono signal, once you have made it work good "naked" you realize (can hear) what all that material in the cables is doing to the sound in a comparison after - in your own system. What' s that you are asking ? the Venustas ...how did they sound in comparison ? In my room sounded "sweeter", like adding a little sugar on top, but with also a perceived smaller pipe of sound. Hey - not a bad thing at all really ...a little sweeter .. right ? I happen to be someone who takes my morning coffee black. I'm pretty sure that someone who takes a double - double coffee will like something else better. Afterall ... all is fair, as far as what you want to use for rope with this Audio Hangman Game .... right ? And remember the Cables Forum at Audiogon has almost 9400 separate threads |
11-04-15: Ct0517
Pegasus - Generally, I find that one considerable advantage of low impedance MCs is that they don't need screening through bypassing / dumping external EM-fields through their low impedance.
+1 Just to add, for those who will be attempting the James Bond maneuvers; use a higher signal / noise MM or other cartridge if possible. If you can make that one work, the MC will be a breeze. btw - any one going to go see the new Bond flick "Spectre" ? I saw "The Martian" last week. Cheers |
- ct0517: It's interesting what you quote about the wire loom. While radial tonearms have the advantage of leverage on the point where the wire exits the tonearm tube and enters the base (tube), the distance is short, and the wires are somehow uncontrollable in their movement, so they are inclined to rub / stick / jump - and this "out of sight". The latter problem is nonexistent in tangential arms, if the wires are properly arranged. Thales' Micha Huber prefers *very* thin wires (ca. 0.07mm), probably to have the arm movement as free as possible. If this is necessary "even" with radial arms, not even a trace of a problem will remain regarding freedom of movement will remain with such wires for tangential arms either. IMO even two twisted 0.15mm wires, carefully arranged, do not create a problem.
- Dover: The silk wires are interesting, as these have much more electrostatic "field" surface covered with natural insulation than the compared solid core wire, this might (on sinister or twisted paths) affect RF sensitivity...
Somehow a "better" insulation with thinner litz wires should be "capable" of better radio reception :-/ ;-) In this case: The opposite!
Isn't reality from time to time baffling us?
Actually it's more of a surprise if we actually and really *know* something for sure.
- Decca: I had a first try yesterday with a artisanally rebuilt Decca, in the Garrot tradition. Yes, it's still a bit of a hassle concerning hum and screening. My 1.25m unscreened solid core wires are too long, but the hum with one phono stage we compared yesterday was quite acceptable even in my suboptimal situation (the Lehmann Audio Black Cube).
The first results are extremely impressive - in a truly musical way. This cartridges liquidity, high resolution, ambience retrieval (not 1:1 = big spaces) and grainfree transparency is *hugely* impressive!
Yes, there is a slight upper mid forwardness (but still in the range of "realistic") and yes, there is a certain upper limit in tracing (now, in my present setup), which is slightly modulated by the very low horizontal LF resonance (not yet damped enough). I will experiment with different spring / counterweight settings.
Still my rebuilt Koetsu Black is - as yet - more general purpose, and extremely natural too, and as yet it traces better.
- Phono stages, in short: The Black Cube is good enough by far to show off the superb qualities of the Decca. It seems to sound better on MM than MC and it's good. The Lehmann was a trace gray on MC, but well organised, generally transparent, dynamically stable and transparent. I had some issues with the Koetsu on high level historical horns (on fff).
. The same issue on blasting horns did arise with an austrian phono stage from pure dynamics. This one was very good, transparent and open, with very good stage in all dimensions. The bass was very good too, and it was fuss free in setup. (It costs around or below 1000$)
. The real stunner was an older LFD MM0, same circuit as the LFD Mistral and later basic LFD phono stages (but with a much beefier power supply). While I had a big issue with some intermittent RF signals ( ;-), probably radar, it was truly superb in timbre, agility, space, musicality and dynamics with a very natural, open bass. My feeling is that the LFDs phono stages might be considerably underrated in the press.
. My Audio Synthesis Passion phono had probably an issue with the supply connections, resulting in a not typical slightly opaque and undedamped quality in the bass, and a slight haze. The Passion Phono was still very transparent and true to instrument characteristics with wide and high stage, depth was a bit shortened probably by the mentioned issue. Generally and over long years this is a superb Phono stage. |
Pegasus
"Somehow a "better" insulation with thinner litz wires should be "capable" of better radio reception :-/ ;-) "
"While I had a big issue with some intermittent RF signals ( ;-), probably radar " You are one funny guy Pegasus. :^) So much possible comedic material when analyzing audiophilia. I would pay to go see you perform it at Just For Laughs. |
The real fun in research is the reality. It has a certain from time to time recurring character trait of disrespecting the holy truth of any hypothesis. Without that, life would be pontifical s***. :-)
Regarding RF: It was only a problem with one phono stage, that might have some issue in the power supply (while still sounding very impressive). The power supply is one of the places where rectification "happens" (yes, it does), the others are nonlinearities in active devices or shaky contacts. No problem even with ca. 1.5m of twisted non screened solid core wires. That's my experience in the context of my system.
Very important: I compared the phonostages with a superb insulation transformer that does a lot (by sounding like less devices in the signal path).
I placed a Stadler air cleaner / ionizer in my listening room, that ran for very few hours (1-2) but was unplugged while listening. After experimenting ca. three weeks with "high quality" water in a humidifier which improved the "atmosphere" or energy but made the sound somewhat dull. The results with the ionizer are amazing: Remarkably more full and transparent - and no charged LPs... !!
We suspected already during an earlier listening sessions, that the slowly increasing amount of dry air exiting the tonearm creates - a lot! - of static charge on the vinyl surfaces. And it had a considerable effect sonically. The ionizer, building up a certain reserve of air ions (smells also a bit like Ozone), seems to eliminate this problem. Hmmm...
The Decca continues to amaze - fantastic! And this already with the Lehmann Black Cube... :-) |
Pegasus - The power supply is one of the places where rectification "happens" (yes, it does), Rectification is a really good word - ET2 thread readers Quiz Question :^) What is the best meaning of rectification for this audio thread ? a. the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right b. the conversion of alternating current to direct current c. the process of refinement or purification of a substance by distillation d. determination of the length of a curve; finding a straight line equal in length to a given curve Pegasus - Regarding RF: It was only a problem with one phono stage, that might have some issue in the power supply (while still sounding very impressive). Some thoughts with my coffee (black) :^) Interesting - when I think power supply I think Transformers - Toroidal and EI - This is the one of the big secrets IMO , well, as well as not living next door to a neighbor running an underground radio station; to setting up unshielded phono wires with no noise/hum. How about looking at the perspective of the phono stage. Which is better ? Toroidal transformer. Major advantage is that they do not radiate much magnetic field. James Bond prefers this type of transformer. :^) EI transformer. Radiate a significant magnetic field from the exposed windings. Low level phono audio signals and gain stages prior to the output stage of amplifiers are small enough, I think, in strength, that if they pass through a decent sized magnetic field, will cause hum in what you hear out of the speaker. What about amplifiers. Should we choose Toroidal transformer or EI power transformers in amps, preamps, phono stages ? My amplifiers are always quite a distance from the preamp/phono stage. I have seen setups where audiophiles cram everything into one rack or closed in space. So what type of transformer is used in your Amplifier ? Does it use an EI transformers ? Is it anywhere near your phono stage ? Here is a fun video that was shown on the Discovery Channel. Making McIntosh Tube AmpWatch how they make the transformers starting at the 2:00 minute mark . Do you think you will be able to use unshielded wires if this amplifier is placed near your phono stage setup ? James Bond you have your work cut out for you. I think maybe we will need to bring back Sean Connery for this effort ? btw - myself, I am not feeling good about how they make the transformers and also in this video toward the end; how they join the inside guts to the outside jacks. By solder on a circuit board ? Another discussion ! No more coffee for me ..... |
(D), of course. Although, (A) is pretty general and applicable; the ET2 has corrected mistakes found in other arm designs.
However, and a bit of a stretch to be sure, but (B) the function of a surge tank can be said to convert the pulses in the airstream of a pump (alternating current) to a smooth airstream (direct current). Moreover, and an even bigger stretch, a desiccant air filter can be said to refine (C) the air (substance) through distillation. So, yes, rectification is a good word. Wait, this is a trick question.....
Some thoughts with my wine (red, and probably too much of it) :^)
My amps' transformers? EI, all the way. However, being monoblocs they are a good distance from my front end (via 15' ics). My phono preamp uses a toroidal and is much closer..
What did my wife do with that last bottle of Malbec? :-) |
Regarding EI (there are several other "square" cores BTW) vs. toroidal transformers: Things are not that simple. While a toroidal has the advantage of a more simple "flowing" magnetic circuit, it's main "advantage" is the absence of an air gap - an economic advantage. This makes for considerably less iron for a toroidal, and more inductivity with less windings. This makes for a low (ohmic !) loss transformer, with low impedance windings.
However this creates disadvantages: The saturation of a toroidal is very sharp, and with the industry practice (and the practice of almost all audiophile transformer builders) of driving the transformers too close to the magnetic saturation point of the cores ("Efficient" ! Bling!) they are *the* achilles heel of excessive sonic mains sensitivity.
And within these issues DC on the mains (a strong disturbance of high variability) drives a toroidal transformers very easily into saturation, a massive disadvantage!
The last related disadvantage of a toroidal is the inherently lower ohmic loss: It produces (much) higher charging current spikes, which on their own magnetize the (hard limited) toroidal core much harder, and again pull away reserves from the iron core. Low loss is not per se better, on magnetic circuits it creates very audible problems.
A correct air gap of a well made EI transformer (not the usual cheap chinese ones) makes it much more linear, and it absorbs DC on the mains with much less hickups. And yes, it usually sounds better.
As does a well designed "artisanal" insulation transformer with EI core.
One example more of reality vs. hype and hypothesis.
And a toroidal "out of reserve" creates very strong hum fields BTW.
In my system, there is a low count of transformers (and an increasing count of batteries). The LFD, with some hum and interference problem in our test, has toroidal transformers ;-) Close to my phono front end (1m) there is only one transformer plus the phono stage transformer, if there is one. |
^^^^^^^ Pegasus - I am not an amplifier-preamplifier-phono manufacturer; but someone who bases all products I own (not just audio) on design, construction, operability, reliability, and with my audio products together - making music (lets call this part implementation). I don't tolerate downtime, hiccups, or operability problems especially with any products that are supposed to, with others as part of a whole - bring me pleasure for leisure activities. It has been my experience with all products (not just audio), that a good design to start does not guarantee a good implementation. In fact. The lesser design implemented well; can have better end results than a better design not implemented well. The setting up of a vinyl turntable system - especially the tonearm - being a perfect example ? Now I do own audio amplifiers with both type of transformers. It is my general understanding that a toroidal transformer by design is better to minimize hum and buzz. So it makes it ideal I would think for a preamp / phono design. But in reality my understanding is it is in fact much more difficult to implement a toroidal design. Harder to make. It stands to reason then that to implement this type of design will cost more. Pegasus
The LFD, with some hum and interference problem in our test, has toroidal transformers ;-) Interesting. Is this the one ? LFDThere are toroidal transformers and then there are toroidal transformers. True Story Was finishing the basement space adjacent to my main music room - to hold my extra gear and it became music room B. I assembled some gear and started listening in the unfinished room space. This gives you a good idea "with your gear", how much damping and other room treatment is going to be needed. Now, with no music playing, whenever I would get up to change the lp or cd I would hear a hum as i walked close to the gear. I followed all the normal procedures to find and eliminate the hum. It was not audible at the listening position. It did not come from the speakers or individual components that were turned on. Frustration set in. Then one day when I was standing between the speakers with no music playing my right ear got fixed on the hum. It was a transformer that I discovered was for the front door bell. It had been mounted to the side of one of wood beams supporting the main floor. Only visible from a certain angle. I followed the cord unplugged it and the buzzing transformer stopped. What relief ! My wife was not as happy as me about this event. I promised my wife I would re-locate it to the back of the house. But I like not having a door bell ....... There is a knocker on the door. But I also discovered that people have forgot how to use those things. They need to see buttons now. Moral of the story and Lesson Learned for me. When trying to eliminate hum and buzz... Look straight ahead; look to the left; look to the right; look down. Don't forget to look up. btw... it was not a toroidal transformer :^) |
My LFD MM0 looks like it has the same circuit board as the LFD Mistral, but has a double mono power supply fed by a very generous toroidal transformer. It's switchable between MM and MC, it seems to sound very good on both inputs. I saw that one was sold on ebay for 275£, and another one advertised in spain vor ca. 310€. These are extremely attractive prices. Sonically, to my ears it plays well into the 2000$ phono stage league. |
Frogman - Wait, this is a trick question..... If I provided "e) all of the above" - it would have made it too easy for all you sharpshooters on the thread. Impressive thought process ! Pegasus
We suspected already during an earlier listening sessions, that the slowly increasing amount of dry air exiting the tonearm creates - a lot! - of static charge on the vinyl surfaces. And it had a considerable effect sonically. The ionizer, building up a certain reserve of air ions (smells also a bit like Ozone), seems to eliminate this problem. Hmmm... An interesting comment Pegasus. I have humidity gauge right next to the TT, One foot away. The needle doesn't move during the hours I am in there. But that is maybe too macro a level.... Have you ever tried a smoke pencil puffer under the sides of the manifold to see the air stream pattern ? 1) With a still record and 2) with a record in play which is playing big bass Good air movement is ...good :^) now where did I put that smoke pen .... "Smoke 'em if you got 'em" - - |
Pegasus
Regarding EI (there are several other "square" cores BTW) vs. toroidal transformers: Things are not that simple. While a toroidal has the advantage of a more simple "flowing" magnetic circuit, it's main "advantage" is the absence of an air gap - an economic advantage. This makes for considerably less iron for a toroidal, and more inductivity with less windings. This makes for a low (ohmic !) loss transformer, with low impedance windings.
However this creates disadvantages: The saturation of a toroidal is very sharp, and with the industry practice (and the practice of almost all audiophile transformer builders) of driving the transformers too close to the magnetic saturation point of the cores ("Efficient" ! Bling!) they are *the* achilles heel of excessive sonic mains sensitivity.
And within these issues DC on the mains (a strong disturbance of high variability) drives a toroidal transformers very easily into saturation, a massive disadvantage!
The last related disadvantage of a toroidal is the inherently lower ohmic loss: It produces (much) higher charging current spikes, which on their own magnetize the (hard limited) toroidal core much harder, and again pull away reserves from the iron core. Low loss is not per se better, on magnetic circuits it creates very audible problems. What if; You have two Solid State Amps Class A/B that both put out 100 wpc *** at 8 ohms and both have toroidal transformers. Their specs look like this. Amp A 2 - ohms - n/a 4 - ohms - 125 wpc 8 - ohms - 100 wpc *** 16- ohms - 50 wpc 32 - ohms - 25 wpc Amp B 2 - ohms - 400 wpc 4 - ohms - 200 wpc 8 - ohms - 100 wpc *** 16- ohms - 50 wpc 32 - ohms - 25 wpc. If both are driving full range speakers at a decent SPL level. These speakers dip to 2 ohms for the low bass requirement. Question: Is transformer saturation the right word to describe what is going to happen to Amp A first ? Just asking .... |
Transformer saturation is one of two main loss factors with transformers, magnetic and ohmic losses. The doubling of the power in high power amps with low impedances highlights the problem of ohmic losses. There are two questions about reducing transformer losses: Does it correlate with better sound, and at which output power levels? And which design optimisation has to take places with which compromises to reach the intended goal. Think also about the sonic qualities of single ended amps, some tube amps too with extremely good bass, but no doubling of the power to lower impedances. The optimisation of audio quality in the major signal range is important - even with considerably compressed music the main energy range is at -10 dBU rel. level, which means at one tenth the peak power. With better material it's rather around -20dB and more. In a normal listening situation one is inclined to reduce the replay level. Generally 90dB medium level, except peaks is very loud. My speakers need less than one Watt average for this. Everything that improves sound quality from zero up to this power range has a lot to do with sound quality. Doubling the power into half of the impedance would be desirable, if there were no inherent sonic compromises. I know this flies in the face of orthodox engineering, but there is some empiric and well thought through truth to it.
Reducing ohmic losses leads to an extremely high current path for the capcitor / rectifier path, with considerable problems, exacerbated by "stable, high energy" designs with huge load capacitance.
Interestingly one of the better sounding Goldmund transistor amps as well as some Cello designs did search for an *optimal*, not maximal load capacitance, with very good results.
One of the reasons is reducing the stress factor inherent in increasing charge current peaks with increased capacitance. The same design compromise is involved with low loss transformers.
There is a way of thinking (shared by some famous names) that a "transformer only provides voltage & current and has no influence on the sound whatsoever". If one starts to experiment with different (brand) transformers, one finds the opposite is true.
This has - in empirical evidence - strongly to do with the magnetic circuit, and wire diameters (and rectifier and power supply design). This is a wide - empiric - research field of patient work, which very few people have done from both sides, the producing and listening side. Most any "normal" transformer is built following general design rules, strongly economical ones, which overlook some key factors, which are relevant "only" to audio. Optics are sometimes also optimised.
It's BTW a question too, how desirable a wide bandwidth is for a power transformer, which is an inherent property of the general winding technique of toroidals. |
