06-17-15: Analogluvr
Hi guys
I bought a vDH colibri xgp, not the light version, and I was wondering if it was a good match with the ET 2 original arm tube? My other options are a VPI 12 or a MS 505. Hi Analogluvr and welcome to the thread. Very nice cartridge. :^) So you bought the P which stands for Plastic body over the metal M - version ? Interesting how the manufacturer states how each cartridge version is more suitable for different music genres. The COLIBRI is available in three main versions: XC Version: (X = cross shaped modulator, C = matched crystal Copper wire coils) Low output all-round model Output voltage: 0.22 mV/channel Types available: XCP and XCM (P and M type suffix see *4) XC-HO Version: (X = cross shaped modulator, C = matched crystal Copper wire coils, HO = High Output) High output, most suitable for jazz music Output voltage: 0.30mV/channel Types available: XCP-HO and XCM-HO XG Version: (X = cross shaped modulator, G = matched crystal Gold wire coils) Medium output, most suitable for classical music Output voltage: 0.38 mV/channel Types available: XGP and XGM ************************************************** ************************************************** Colibri Static Compliance: 35 Micron/mN This makes it very high compliance. As one example the Acutex 420 str reviewed here by Bruce was even higher compliance. 42 x 10 -60 cm/dyne. For those confused by compliance....think cartridge springiness. (taken from - Galen Carol Audio) Any cartridge/tonearm combination will exhibit resonance at a specific frequency (or frequencies). This resonance is due to the interaction of the cartridge (acting as a spring), and the weight of the arm (acting as a mass). The "springiness" of the phono cartridge is described as compliance, the weight of the arm is specified in mass. As an example, a heavy weight on a light spring would obviously over-flex the spring, conversely, a light weight on a strong spring would not allow sufficient flexion. so .. Low compliance 12 x l0ˉ6 or below, is considered low compliance. Medium to high compliance is 13 x l0ˉ6 and 25 x l0ˉ6 is considered high. Very high compliance above that. You can express compliance as the Colibri does in um/mN. Here a rating of 5 to 10 is considered very low, 10 to 20 is moderate and above 35 is very high The Colibri is very high compliance. So if all other factors are equal the ET 2.0 with original aluminum arm tube would work best with this cartridge. ************************************ ************************************ other interesting stuff. The web site data for VDH shows the vertical tracking angle as 22 Degrees for the Colibri Here is info lifted from the ET2 manual Page 56 which I find useful. *Not all cartridges will be improved by using them at some angle other than the intended design angle. the top of the cartridge parallel to the surface of the record. *If the measured vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is high (greater than 22 degrees) its vertical performance will probably be improved by tilting it back 2 or 3 degrees. (front goes up) to match present vertical angles on records. *If the measured vertical tracking angle of a cartridge is 18 -20 degrees it will probably perform best when its top is mounted mounted parallel to the record. *Some cartridges are senstive to small changes in VTA, some are not. pls excuse an spelling/grammar errors. **************************************** **************************************** And if we really want to get ANAL-og with our ET2 setup. :^) low compliance cartridge - use triple leaf spring with I Beam. medium compliance - use double leaf spring. High compliance - use single leaf spring. The Colibri would use one leaf spring. We are matching I Beam Springiness with that of the cartridge. |
My personal experience with my and my friend's ET 2.5 is the lack of precision in manufacturing these parts. This is most likely the reason for his holding down the cost for so long.
When I take my arm/housing off the post/arc block.. it is an issue that involves quite a bit of pressure! On my friend's very recent arm upgrade, it didn't involve any pressure in releasing these two mating components! This is a BIG difference in the issue regarding precision/mating parts that greatly affect the overall sound of the arm!!!
I personally believe that the past precision of these parts were/are much better than the recent ones.
Here's an interesting thing... www.stepcraft2.com .
An in home CNC/3D printer!!! Wow! A game changer to say the least. |
Bigalt: My hearing isn't like it once was either.
The saving grace is.. even though humans' listening range doesn't go past 20Khz, an lp has the ability to go to 40khz. This can't be heard but can be experienced!!!!
The once reported range of digital doesn't come close. |
Ct0517: Bigalt's 8 tt's should not surprise you. I think it is more of a "I wish I was there" factor. ha ha. (Shhhhh... you are very, very close) |
Bigalt: I think you, and maybe, only you, can appreciate the 3.5 platter/bearing and other mods I've done to my TT. Despite your pronouncement that you may not be able to hear nuances, I think you can at least appreciate your past history/vs/current going's on.
I'd LOVE to see your system! |
Bigalt: Reading (further) into your comment "and the sound it provides" makes me think that, you could provide all of us great insight on, (what I hope) are your further comments based on your (obvious) long history with analog, (specifically the ET). |
Slaw.
Taking a look at your systems page, I see a nice compressor setup with aux receiver. A few questions please...
What is the total volume of the two receivers? You get impressive cycle off time, more than a typical LP side, which has to be a good thing.
Also, is it an oil less compressor? If not, any concerns about oil vapour getting into the arm? Obviously the filter and separator are inline to protect against this, but we worry about such things don't we.
Many thanks |
Hello Slaw - in addition to Richard's question I am interested to know about your modded thread drive VPI TT. Specifically.. What type of thread are you using ? How many LP's does it last for; and when the thread does give up the ghost; is it all at once and SNAP ! or are there the indicators of wavering pitch. Ct0517: Bigalt's 8 tt's should not surprise you. I think it is more of a "I wish I was there" factor. ha ha. (Shhhhh... you are very, very close) hah hah Slaw - do you recall a conversation we had about 3 + ? years ago. You were interested in 2nd TT - a Rek O Kut idler drive and asked me my opinion of idlers. One of my tables was a Jean Nantais Lenco idler. Do you remember what I said ? "Be careful what you wish for, it's a slippery slope." in reference to this turntable journey. My multiple turntable craze was a temporary diversion for me. A welcome one as it helped in taking my mind off of other less pleasant stuff during a difficult time. I had at one time five TT's but only two in use at any one time. It was a comparison of drive types using the same tonearm and cartridge on two of them; same time using 15 IPS tape as a reference and switching between them. It was a fun, safe time right up to the point end when I got bold with experimentation and beheaded the well endowed Dynavector XV1. The drive type comparison is found on my system thread. A short visual synopsis is hereIn short very different, each drive type in the way the music is presented, all other factors being equal. Much like listening to a band or group in different venues, and or different nights. No two performances the same. fwiw I have just one main table now. The other two, are there in room 2 still but not in use. Would consider selling them but in no hurry to sell. As long as there are audiophiles buying this gear, prices will continue to rise, imo. At 53 I consider myself as one of the younger aging audiophiles trying to carry the audio flame. My kids soon to be 21 both love music. But convenience and portability are their most important considerations. They do not strive for the in room experience with the musicians. I believe this is because when they go out for entertainment, they go to clubs that reproduce music electronically.... mostly. When I was their age I was ...mostly..... in small venues listening to live bands... live music. I am trying to capture my personal fountain of youth. get those endorphins flowing ..... This thread is now well over one million views ......8^0 Happy past July 1 Canada day, and to my American friends Happy July 4th. Canada Day for me was memorable... there was a small traffic jam on a cottage road. As we approached the backlog it looked like cars were backed from what looked like a brown animal with babies (greenish in color for some odd reason in the distance ?) crossing the road. As we approached; it turned out to be ....a Beaver carrying a 6 foot maple tree branch across the road. He was in no hurry. Back to running with the bears. :^) Happy Listening |
Richardkrebs: Thank you for your questions. The tank on the Jun-Air is around 7 gal., so is my auxillary tank that is an aluminum tank from Harbor Freight. This is not an oil-less compressor.
I can tell you emphatically that even before I added this compressor into my system, my way of virtually eliminating any and all pulsing and moisture was done superbly by my Motor-Guard M-30 (toilet paper filter). ( I do remember adding a comment that when I had a compressor that ran continuously that produced a large amount of moisture, I had remedied all concerns with the Motor-Guard filter). Still I pointed out that upon introducing the Jun-Air, it made an improvement that was noticeable and welcome. (Keep in mind my (DIY) Motroxix regulator and the (pre-filter and post-filter) that are really not needed but go to my over-riding philosophy of more insurance is better, as well as these two things are (visual) reminders of a potential problem that I may never have. They Do not interfere with the sonics at all. Frankly, with this compressor, I doubt if you need all of the above filters and traps, etc...
I have a (storage bottle) for oil/moisture that escapes from the tank as well as a needle valve that I can easily open to expel any excess in the tank into the orange bowl.
IMO, this is a perfect set-up, certainly one I'd recommend to anyone. From what I hear, (from the technicians for Jun-Air), these compressors never fail! I use the recommended synthetic oil that, while expensive, should rarely need changing. |
Ct0517: I use a #2 silk bead cord that lasts and lasts. The previous one lasted over one year. When it broke, it just "laid down". To me, the word "snaps" brings up a vision of tension that I would never associate with this type of application/cord. I've had the current one on for at least one year. Apparently I'm doing something right! Wouldn't you agree?
Richardklebs: The manufacturers' recommended cycle on/off intervals are no less than 15 minutes. I've done better than double that. My set-up is really a worry free one for years. |
SLAW - I use a #2 silk bead cord that lasts and lasts. Thanks very much Slaw for the info. your experiences with VPI and having to use a Cord type drive coincides with mine experiences from the past. IMO - The VPI decks (platter/bearing design) is not designed for use with thread /string. A heavier type cord is required. Sure you can use string/thread but it won't last long. This was the reason I asked. Years ago in conversations with Mike at VPI his preference was to use the Spider brand Fishing Line. Regarding your use of the word tension. IMO - tension is a relative term when it comes to TT's. For example. My Verdier La Platine Granito was designed for thread/string. The thread is set up very loose. When properly set up you can actually flick at the thread as the music plays and there is no noticeable pitch change. The platter keeps going. In fact the motor which flickers as it turns the platter can also be shut off and on within a couple of seconds with the same result. The string/thread side load (tension) on the Verdier platter is very low. In comparison my previously modded TNT "did" need significantly more side load tension to work. My experience has also been the smaller/thinner the string/thread in use, the greater, more explosive the sonics. This was one of the reasons that drove me to a final deck designed specifically for string/thread. I am using Guetermann s-303-800 Cheers |
Ct0517: I think as far as our use of "tension" or "snaps" is mostly semantics. I appreciate your pointing out the (thread) above. (One never knows how or when or where some little, but very important piece of information, will come from). As you noted, I too found that the smaller gauge thread results in a more open/dynamic/pleasing sound.
I do remember our conversation regarding the Rek-O-Kut, at the time I thought I'd like to have a second TT/project. I've done so much with my current TT and am very pleased (to say the least) that I now have the extra parts (platter/bearing) and more importantly the (shop) equipment and greater knowledge to actually build a second one, that is, whenever I find the time to update my main table as I somewhat described earlier.
Here are some of my materials I've put together for the (main) project:
(a) The purple heart boards (will be sandwiched using a 3M epoxy in conjunction with 1/16" quasitropic carbon fiber sheet. The boards will be oriented at 180 degrees on each consecutive layer. I'm hoping to have a brass ring machined for the bearing interface that will be countersunk into the top board, to give me a great ground structure reference to work with. (There will be pockets drill for lead shot/epoxy).
(b) I'm kind of "up in the air" still on if I want this structure to be all there is for the platter base or have a separate/second/well damped lower base that will be isolated from the upper base by brass cones and possibly a mechanical fastening system that can be torqued for listening results.
(c) The new motor enclosure,thread tensioning pod and arm pod will be of similar construction, however I'm still wanting to have my motor enclosure top plate machined from air-craft aluminum.
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I'd appreciate any thoughts here on my above project. I believe it is very well thought out but will welcome any valid concerns/thoughts/improvements. |
Also, I'd like to thank the following people for their influence on this project:
Ct0157: for his early suggestion to have the arm & table separated
Frogman: for his insight on tonearm wire construction
Dgarretson: for supplying me with the bearing info needed for my future thread tensioning pod and the inspiration for my upcoming tonearm wire design
all of the above have been a great resource! |
Slaw.
Many thanks for sharing the info on your compressor set up. Most interesting.
Also good luck with your TT project.
Just a comment on the idea of using lead shot. I have had mixed results using shot. Both in loose form and epoxy glued. In some installs it seems to create a smearing effect, however using one piece lead in sheet or rod form has always been positive. This provided it is not inserted into the energy loop we are trying to damp. That is, I have found it beneficial if the loop is laminated with lead.
As always YMMV
cheers. |
Richardkrebs: Your observation is interesting, and more food for thought. I know from my experiments in using lead shot in various ways over the years that in does work to a certain extent, but one needs to be careful in the amount used while considering (as you say), the particular type of (situation) it is used in as well. In most of my listening experiments using it solely for a damping effect on top of speakers or stationary components, I've found that while it does work, too much deadens the sound in those types of applications. Since, I've found that brass works the best there. (Just the thought of lead as a substance, brings to mind (deadness), with no ability for any resonance to be controlled, just trapped and/or redirected). This is exactly the kind of thoughtful observation I was hoping to receive. Thanks, your thoughts are very welcome. |
Richardkrebs: I think that maybe a perfect example of what you are saying and what I've experienced, can be found in the Walker tt and associated stand. The stand, from my memory, included lead as a factor. This was most likely used as a necessity to deal with the system as a whole and it's (final, sonic) needs. (Maybe, with the inferiority of any stand, at the time, in order to effectively deal with such a well thought out, heavy design), they may have felt that deadening was superior to any other (systems) available then.
I just realized, here we are on the ET thread... and now, in my responses, I've introduced brass, lead , Walker...anyone see the connection?
From my memory, Bruce Thigpen had a working relationship with Bob Dilger on the Mapenoll, the ET arm was part of this project and then the basis for the Walker arm, then Pierre Spray (Mapleshade) had an association with Bob and apparently the folks at Walker (look at their similar racks and wire designs) It really comes full circle.. (in no particular order) |
Slaw
In my experience using solid lead never over damps the structure provided it is adhered to the structure with a glue that is of equal or higher hardness than the structure. Do not use glues like Ados!
Using lead in this way actually increases the vividness or presence of the sound.
Try a small sheet of your chosen plinth material.
Listen to it thru a stethoscope by tapping it with something hard.
Now epoxy glue a sheet of lead to the parent material. Try the tap test again.
You will likely hear a sharper but much shorter "Tic". Think of speaker waterfall plots here, we want rapid dissipation of the energy.
IMO the same applies to TTs as well.
Next load another sheet parent material with a bag of lead shot. Tap test again. It will likely not be as sharp but will be a longer slurred sound. I think that the lead shot actually rattles and this is what you are hearing.
Some years ago I made a TT stand.
The vertical colums were 2" ID aluminim tubes. I tried filling these with sand, lead shot and a combination of both. Finally used solid lead rods inside the tubes. This was easily superior to the other iterations.
Cheers and good luck with the project! |
Richardkrebs: Regarding the "rapid dissipation of energy", in the above test that you described, I have to wonder if in fact it was that or possibly the lead blocking/trapping/redirecting any resonance? Having just said that, I'll ask myself... Where did it go? To be filtered back through the "parent" material a second time? This is just a thought, not a conclusion. I have to wonder, if the differing materials one uses will have a different reaction to lead as well? My own answer is, most likely. As you can tell, this is an ongoing process in my own mind. But, in the end, it's how things sound that ultimately matters.
FWIW: I made my own version of the Bright Star "sand boxes" early on and in addition, just a few years ago, tried a small version under a prototype motor enclosure and in all cases, upon listening, I was not satisfied. I feel that sand traps/stores energy. If not, where does it go? Into the box itself, that has no real effective way of dealing with said energy? Just think of how some manufacturers of tts aligned themselves with Bright Star or even Ginko years ago but now, there are other, more effective methods, and you don't see those tt manufacturers advertising with said aftermarket products anymore. This fact is telling. (The introduction of Stillpoints will go down in history as a milestone in the history of effectively dealing with resonances in audio reproduction. Still, they are to be used with a certain amount of discretion. Just my two cents). In my tests I described in a previous post (with lead/brass & not with a component that has a motor spinning) there is the tendency for brass as a material to ring. I continue to feel that this "ring" of that particular materials' structure is what allows it to "pass' resonances in a way that ultimately provides superior sonics in the end. Some materials' "ringing" nature can be a good thing in terms of end-user sonic return. Think back to the RoomTunes "tuneable" speaker enclosure or Harbeth's philosophy of a certain amount of resonance makes great sound. I believe it all comes down to the individual materials used and how they are applied in a certain scenario.
Others may find this discussion boring, I just am trying to give you my impressions and thought process. I can see that you've correlated your testing methods and your listening results with the materials you used and are satisfied. Thanks for the response! |
... (more food for thought).. would lead shot encapsulated in epoxy sound different from stainless steel shot encapsulated in the same epoxy in a similar project? The point being, as you eluded to, that the epoxy is keeping the encapsulated material from exuding it's natural reaction to resonances. The only possible difference would be the mass each individual component has. This goes to my point of a particular materials' resonant properties affect on overall sound. (We may be trying to say the same thing but getting to that similar point by different methods.) |
I have used epoxied lead shot inside a DIY subwoofer because at that time I was convinced that lead is good for the sound and that it's just the right material, kind of soft yet hard enough to retain it's shape. Since then I have learned that lead, unfortunately, is one of the worst materials ever foisted on poor unsuspecting naive audiophiles and should be avoided even in small amounts, especially noticeable in how it destroys the bass frequencies. Note: I wound up having to take a hatchet and small sledge hammer to the DIY subwoofer just to be able to get it out of the house. Was that wrong? |
Geoff
It is up to you to decide the right or wrong of it.
As I said earlier, and I was pulling my punches, lead shot has not been good in my experience.
Solid lead, properly bonded to the parent material, is a different story however.
Cheers |
Pierre of Mapleshade used to employ a lot of solid lead at CES and in his recording studio. However, after buying into the whole lead thing, including solid lead he has since recanted and no longer employs lead. Even my Arcici stand that employed lead bars sounded more open and natural with the lead bars removed. |
Geoffkait: Your experience and your way of dealing with the results, really gave me a "belly laugh". Thanks for that!
I don't want to in any way disregard Richardkrebs personal results. I believe it would be half-hazard and wrong to do so. I respect his thoughts and his journey. I find all of this fascinating and don't want to, in any way, discourage others from posting on their results.
My feeling regarding different materials used, is that each individual material has a resonant frequency response (in terms of audio reproduction) that is really what the end user hears. How these different materials are applied is the ultimate question.
My current motor enclosure has extensive use of lead shot in two ways. The bottom surface is encased with small gauge lead shot ( around 3/4", tapped down, and it's surrounding area is coated with a spray-on damping material, the sides of the enclosure have been drilled out at various intervals and filled with epoxy/lead shot). You'd think it would be fairly dead but that really isn't the case. It seems that the shot hasn't "dealt" with the vibrations caused by the spinning motor in this instance. It has "re-directed" them. IMO.
I recently tried three Stillpoints Minis (directly under) this enclosure and was not at all impressed. The vibration/resonance was brought back up through the enclosure. I then decided to use the brass cones that are bonded to the bottom ( the original design) for the "drain" needed to deal with the fact there is a motor spinning in this application. This was the better coarse of action.
It's all about the best way for built up energy/resonance to be drained while the materials used/their "end sound" and the application of these materials that matters, as I see it. This is what Richardkrebs is saying as are we all. We have differing ways to get to the best sound. Ultimately, It will be our own listening biases that make the decision for us. Thanks for the responses!
(As an aside, my current speakers Usher BE-718 have their internal side walls lined with lead plating. I'm happy with the sound and have not tried in any way to put my own imprint here on their sound other than speaker stands.) |
...Without (a materials' resonant property,) there would not be very much substantive discussion in all things audio related. |
Geoffkait: I would like to know how & in what particular way you chose to use the lead shot in your aforementioned subwoofer project? Thanks! |
Taking the thoughts above to the extreme.. think of using the very best material directly under a spinning platter/bearing, that one has found in their system testing to be their most favorable. Taking that material solely as the platters' base and machining it in the very best way in order to drain resonance away, my feeling is the end sound would not be very pleasing. This goes to my/others' over-riding point of the delicate balance in mating/using differing materials in order to achieve best sound. Resonance is a necessary factor in good sound. The controlling of resonance is the on-going/hard to grasp issue. |
Goeffkait: I had the same stand as you described, unfortunately, I cannot describe my listening results as I sold it a long time ago. I do wish you'd go into more detail regarding your conclusions VIA your obvious systems' reflections of these comments. Thank you! |
Geoffkait: I believe this whole conversation is well served by ones' projects laid out in more detail. This is what I feel Richardkrebs and I have tried to lay out for everyone here. I appreciate and await your more detailed responses. Thank you! |
Geoffkait: So far, regarding your latest response, involving the Arcici stand, is not really, in all due respect, relevant in this discussion (that has been described by two of us, who have posted our own individual projects based on our (own) results), then our ultimate findings. I hope you can see/accept the difference. I'd love to hear more in detail, any projects you've accomplished vs. manufacturers end products,.. not manufacturers products vs. other manufacturers products. If you feel that my statement above, slighted you in any way, please let us know and accept my apologies.
Ct0517: Turns out, I have quite a bit to say. I can see this thread going into another subject, altogether. Should I/we start another thread, based upon the association with the one you started? |
I'll leave you all with this "simple test". If you have a component shelf, that, upon your touching it, is vibrating, then you apply pressure...
This makes the vibration go way? To an extent. Where does it go? It has to go back into from where it came, right? I can think of no other option.
"Food For Thought" |
I lined the entire subwoofer with epoxy'd lead shot. Another lining of felt was applied to the lead shot. |
A couple of thoughts:
Slaw, vibrations are not necessarily reflected back to the components as in the case of your sand boxes. The energy turns to heat and is dissipated as such; perhaps no all of it, but I would imagine a substantial amount of it does. The issue of wether vibrations are reflected back, drained, stored or dissipated and how each possibility affects the sound of our systems is still, I think, not fully understood. Richarkrebs' comment about using the correct epoxy to glue lead is fascinating and goes to my contention that wether we want to admit it or not, a lot of what we do with "vibration control" and how it's effects are perceived is completely system dependent and often no more than a type of "tone control". While I can understand how vibrations can affect the performance of transducers in absolute terms, it seems to me that as concerns electronics and cables it is NOT possible to "overdamp"; other than in the context of a given system. When the perceived effect of damping (or of not damping) is negative it's an indication of tonal inaccuracy in that component or somewhere else in the system. How can eliminating spurious vibrations be a bad thing? I addition, tonal issues affect how we perceive rhythm and timing and even soundstaging. As great as our audio systems sound, they are still far from truly accurate; as in the sound of live music which is why these perceived effects are relevant. |
Frogman.
I agree 100%. IMO it is impossible to over damp, if our objective is to keep the piece of gear or part "still" and there are very few pieces of the audio chain that aren't meant to be still.
It is however very easy to incorrectly apply materials in an attempt to damp that just shift the movement signature of the piece, often making it move for longer after the initial excitation.
The method of bonding the damping material to the structure is critical in this. I experimented with hardener and adhesive ratios on my TT build to find the best hardness of the epoxy. It appears that the optimum is when the adhesive is more or less equal in hardness to the parent material AND when the absolute minimum amount of glue is used.
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We probably don't know 20% of the variables in audio and most likely never will.
I had occasion few years ago to watch one of the acknowledged
best symphony space designers work on a multi-million upgrade to a hall, he said at the end of the day its cut and paste. |
Hi all.
I really want to respond to each & every post made since my last one. However, I feel I need to preface any remarks I make from now on. Here is that preface:
(1) I've tried to make my journey as open as possible. Over the years, I've read & DO read others' postings, and while I don't doubt their relevance, I wonder if (my) postings of late have any real (relevance) to you all. I say this because it seems to me they have "divided responses", and are taken out of context.
(2) I'm a passionate Audiophile! I believe there is most likely no doubt about this. This passion is the essence of all of my postings.
(3) I do realize that I lack basic social skills that are prevalent in my posts. This lack of social skills should (I hope) not be taken as a lack of respect for, or a lack of the fact that I realize what others may be saying in regards to my posts and (my not taking their opinions to heart).
(4) I, unlike several here, opted to make most, if not all, of my current system, ( in the past), a part of those posts. I currently have deleted it. I believe that this was/is important!
(5) I've had other posts recently that have come under intense scrutiny.
My goal as of late has been to bring forth subjects that others dare to talk about and in all honesty, IMO, (this site has needed some influx of pointed questions) that have enough relevance in order to bring out some "member thinking".
My latest post regarding the affect or non-affect of differing materials on the audio signal has intrigued me.
Frogman's latest post regarding this, leaves me wondering if he really understands or has ever had personal experience in testing differing materials. I have always respected his even, controlled, knowledgeable opinion, as I've referenced in earlier posts, also, (in my personal emails to him, I've referenced this fact as well), but I have to wonder regarding his latest post, (that seems to cover every aspect, whether it's pro or con, on this subject), he seems to want to make his point, regardless of whichever side one comes from!) IMO, he's covering ALL bases.
I feel it is now necessary to make this a pointed question as follows:
(1) Frogman references my DIY sandboxes and there lack of, IMO, their ability to deal with vibrations. Frogman states that the vibrations are most likely to be dispersed as (heat). This either, may be fact or most likely be fact or may not apply at all... the FACT is that in (my) personal tests that I tried to describe, I was not at all impressed and in the context of my tests that I decribed, my DIY sandboxes failed. I have to ask Frogman the following... please enlighten me/us all, the projects you've undertaken/experienced, in which your comments would have greater relevance? A simple question?
(2) Frogman's post regarding Richardkrebs' use of epoxy in the context of (his) project... this is really what I was trying to express... that, it's all in how we use materials in a certain project and how those materials respond in the (way we use them), that ultimately makes (the difference) in the (context of our own system).... Am I, so, out of the social conscience, that my earlier remarks are taken any other way? If so, I really want someone to explain this to me. Please.
(3) I tried to ask/inquire of others regarding their projects in order to gain (insight), but I don't feel I really received any helpful answers. I thought my questions were relevant and my willingness to provide my past projects' information would have garnered a response from those who were "like minded". I seem to have failed here as well.
(4) Frogman says that , and I'm paraphrasing, that he feels that it's not possible to "overdamp" electronics or cables. I completely disagree!. It really seems that even Goeffkait's project reveals this, moreover, my years of applying various amounts of differing materials on my, and in some cases, inside of my audio equipment, has left me with the complete opposite result from Frogman's comment/results. I'd like to know more about Frogman's testing/history that has led him to make these statements and that others' follow.
(5) Frogman's question: "How can eliminating spurious vibrations be a bad thing?" Here's how. In my system, over years of testing various materials, in various components, I find that statement to be more than "half-hazard" and one that really isn't worthy of Frogman's apparent knowledge and intellect....
In one of my past subwoofer experiments... A Mirage ,single 12" woofer box, using a small amount of lead shot on the top revealed good results. (The best results were upon using brass cones on the bottom.) I found that increasing the amount of lead shot, muddied the bass, the bass was less musical. (Probably, twenty years ago). I'm currently performing similar projects, (that result in the same effect) now! This was, as I said, early on and have conducted more relevant tests but since we are starting from (zero), this is my first response/question to you.
So, Frogman, while I DO respect you, I still have to wonder, based on the above items, how you draw your conclusions and what history/projects you've performed that have led you to those conclusions? Thanks. |
Richardkrebs: I find your last post to be very relevant and more over, logical! I don't feel in any way, (from my reading/understanding of what Frogman just posted), that his response/conclusion/or any history, suddenly becomes (justified), regarding any projects (we are all unaware of) he may have undertaken. I do hold out that I may have somehow (missed) something. If that is the case, please let me know?
I still haven't received any response to my (wondering) if others have found similar/any results in using different materials in the similar situations that I described above? Thank you.
If my perception regarding my statement above is wrong, I'd really like for someone to explain to me how I may have come to a wrong conclusion? |
Schubert: I don't know you but take your comment at face value. This kind of goes to my over-riding point of late.
I'm trying to start/have a discussion but am met with negativity (to a degree) and the fact that I let my personal thoughts go out (I had hoped to get some sort of similar thoughts from others), and kind of had them squashed... This is the environment that is the (norm) here, so it seems.
Why is it that as Ct0517 pointed out recently that this site has had over 1 million hits, but IMO, there are really very few responders? This, to me, is very troubling. I've tried to change this but with my socials skills very lacking, I doubt if I helped at all. |
Here it is, with all due respect to Frogman, I love his views and especially his thoughtful writings, his knowledge and the way those writings draw us all in... for the life of me, I still haven't, just one time, heard Frogman state one project that supports the authority/respect, that would be appreciated and wanted by all, (including me) here. If, by reading this, Frogman decides to clue us in, I'd be "all ears" and have even more respect for his knowledgeable writings. If, even after this, the possibility of this would blow me away, I'd then ask, "Why, why did it take so long for us or the newbies here, to finally get some sort of "personal connection" with you that up until now, we all were looking for"?
I suspect, Frogman may have had another life in the Audio Industry. |
Slaw, I made the comment in another thread of yours that you tend to personalize these discussions too readily. Well, you are true to form. To ignore your rant would probably be wise, but ultimately way too easy. I like a challenge :-)
Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. I don't mind being drawn into a dialogue, but you're going to have to be more succinct and clear about what the issue is for you. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the issue for you is that since you are not aware of any of my "projects" that my supposed "authority" is thrown into question. I have news for you: I claim no authority in audio matters. I would respectfully suggest that you not put so much stock in trying to be an authoriy on these topics; express your thoughts and opinions and leave it at that. If it's a worthy idea, the dialogue will follow.
I stand by my comments. If they don't resonate as authoritative enough to you, then simply ignore them; I'm ok with that. |
Frogman: I appreciate your pointed criticism and hopefully I can try to become more self-aware of my failings. I also appreciate your willingness to respond.
I re-read your post above from 7/13 and this is now sinking in more. Since, as you say, all of our systems are inaccurate and we are all trying to find better ways of handling vibrations, it seems to me that the only informative way to do this is in the context of our own systems. Therefore regarding a portion of your statement... "in the context of our own systems"... I believe this is (all of our reference') as it relates to all of our posts.
Having said this, It seems to me that my trying to explain what I've done and the difference that was made, was/is probably really not relevant at all to any one else, because of the fact that my reference is taken from my experience within the context of my system. In that light, why are we even posting our experiences here if they are not relevant to another who has a completely different system/room/ear? It seems, in this context, a good argument can be made that this forum as it relates to this topic and the value we or the audio reviewer places on a particular recording or equipment is most likely a waste of time, unless we place innocuous terms/phrases such as... "this may be" or "you could hear this" or "you may have a different result" in reference to what we think others may find from our descriptions of our own findings within our own systems. ( I think this is why I cancelled my subscriptions a long time ago), also, (This may go to my posting elsewhere that there's no better resource than discovering things on your own.) I think my passion and my wanting to share that passion and my findings always over-rides my ability to express these things in a way that others would find engaging and enjoyable to hear/read.
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This may be off in another direction completely but, (IMO). there is a correlation here to the current subject above.
When manufacturers of lps or equipment exclaim their product is the best or from the original master tapes and the best sounding ever and we then purchase that product, and get a different result, what drives our opinion of them from that point on? What effect does it take? Do you not buy from said manufacturer again. Will you never even look/read an advertisement from said manufacturer in the future?
I can only assume that they, (in the context of their systems), have concluded their positive, aforementioned, stated opinion. I'm sure, at some point, we've purchased a product based on the manufacturer's opinion of said product. Or...after researching a specific product that one thinks may be in their top two or three components they wish to evaluate and subsequently go out to audition. Then, based on that audition, (in the context of that dealer's system), the component is then purchased and when inserted into the buyer's system, and it doesn't meet the buyer's standards, does the buyer stop all further contact with that particular dealer/manufacturer. (These dealers/manufacturers are confident in their opinions in the context of their individual systems). Does this somehow make that dealer/manufacturer irrelevant from that point on, even though the dealer has said it's the best sounding product that he's heard or the best match for your system's needs based on the info you've given him? Does the manufacturer suddenly find that no form of advertising will be available to them, ever? Do reviewers suddenly make a pact that they will no longer review any product made buy this specific manufacturer from that point on?
What I've done is the same thing, it seems to me, except for the fact that I am not trying to sell anything. I'm trying to put out information that others can hopefully use based on my extensive posts, passion, experience and the fact that I've made my system available so one can actually see for themselves from where I draw my opinions. That system (is) my reference. I'm as confident with how my system sounds as are the above, in all of the scenarios laid out above. Without confidence, there really is not much else other than meaningless talk. |
I have re-read all of this again. In all due respect to Frogman, I do take some offense to his referring to my post as a "rant". (Do I detect some passion here?) I readily admit I lack the ability he has to make my point in an efficient manner, but to my credit, I acknowledge my faults and accept them.
This post is in reference to Frogman's read of my challenging him to share any projects in support his posts in which he responded as my essentially saying... (his lack of sharing any projects he's done, being a perceived lack of "authority" to challenge or have others be confident in his postings). I suppose this is one way to look at it. Another way, may be in order for all of us, who don't know one another, and are trying to figure out all of the member's posts, what they mean, the context of the posting members' systems, and all of the other ways out there that are feeding our addiction and how we all translate this information into what is relevant to the person reading all of this. |
Frogman states:... "If they, (referring to my comments above), don't resonate as authoritative enough with you, then simply ignore them; I'm ok with that". Yet, by his own logic, my comments must have had some/enough effect on Frogman that he (chose) to comment, or challenge my past comments, instead of ignoring them as he wants me to do. In other words, he chose not to ignore my comments that he disagreed with, yet wants me to do the opposite of what he professes! Please, someone, tell me the logic in this?
I also love a challenge!
I would just like some sort of factual, informative, and/or reasonable resolution to all of the above, (I hope all of my responses have/will be posted).
Ct0517: I gave you/this thread an out, remember? lol. |
This post is of coarse, assuming my other posts, have since posted, which is doubtful, but hopeful.
In another thread, you responded by initially saying... be careful what you wish for, and I think you said, "man up". Something like that?
Anyway, if all of my posts come through, and come through in order, I think you'll get the (gist) of this remark, as will others. |
Frogman: Is/are/do these posts meet your requirements of being "succinct"?
If not, I'm still up for a challenge. |
Hi Guys -what a month July was. First half of summer over. Been away.... up north (for me), listening to mostly natural wild sounds (music) amplified by the lake. Imagine hearing people have a normal conversation 1 kilometer away from you. The magic of sound carrying on a still lake surrounded by hills, cliffs, mountains . This gives new meaning to the dog barking on Rogers Waters - Amused to Death album. Back for a few days then the second half starts for me. The good lord willing. Some comments from some of the posts here. Re: Lead discussions. IMO Any experienced audiophile that can still hear, should be able to determine the benefits and limitations of using lead or other materials in their own systems. With that, lead is a banned substance in many countries including Canada. The ET2 manual carries this warning. The lead counterweights used in the tonearm can be handled infrequently without cause for concern. Prolonged handling of lead and exposure to skin should be accompanied by good personal hygiene procedures. Wash hands after handling. Do not allow children to handle to ingest these weights. If one is swallowed by anyone induce vomiting and refer to a physician. 07-11-15: Geoffkait
Pierre of Mapleshade used to employ a lot of solid lead at CES and in his recording studio. However, after buying into the whole lead thing, including solid lead he has since recanted and no longer employs lead. Even my Arcici stand that employed lead bars sounded more open and natural with the lead bars removed. Geofffkait - welcome to the thread. Makes me wonder (a little) if the removal of lead becomes a business decision - increased Sales Potential for products to countries that ban lead. Just saying. This hobby is all about personal setup; always has been. My experiences have been I can make any material work to a certain level of satisfaction and live with it. Some materials however (in each of our individual setups) will work better and give you more "ROPE" for this crazed "hobby" of ours. BTW - For those unaware GeoffKait was "sort of" of responsible for my being banned from Audiogon by my wife during the late winter listening season. if interested in the soap opera like details follow this link. All is forgiven Geoff ... :^) ********************************************************************************** Slaw - Why is it that as Ct0517 pointed out recently that this site has had over 1 million hits, but IMO, there are really very few responders? This, to me, is very troubling. I've tried to change this but with my socials skills very lacking, I doubt if I helped at all. Slaw, do you know how many different people are on this thread /have posted on it ? Some stats as of this morning 08 02 2015Slaw - It seems, in this context, a good argument can be made that this forum as it relates to this topic and the value we or the audio reviewer places on a particular recording or equipment is most likely a waste of time, unless we place innocuous terms/phrases such as... "this may be" or "you could hear this" or "you may have a different result" in reference to what we think others may find from our descriptions of our own findings within our own systems. Slaw - If we drill down one more level, all ET2 owners on this thread have a unique point of reference (or lack thereof). It happens to be the most tweak-able tonearm I have ever owned. None of our individual ET 2.0 ET 2.5 setups are identical. That makes things even more complicated .....doesn't it ? I think it really all boils down to people using tips from generous posters here; using them to their liking. People that post tips on this thread do so in an unselfish manner and not for profit. Just sharing info. They ask nothing in return. btw - I have received numerous pm's from folks (ET2 owners/non-owners) who enjoy the thread but are too shy to post or prefer not to. In regards to your comments on Frogman's audio projects; Frogman was kind enough to share a couple pics of his setup here. Can be seen in the 2014 Audiophile Wrap. In this post the first two pics are Frogman's setup.I took the liberty of nicknaming the pics the Mona Lisa of ET2 Tonearm wire setup. Frogman's pics show multiple projects.... imo. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ and... A friend sent me this interesting audiophile article link. I found it a good read, honest, mostly on the mark too.... So I share it with all of you here.Happy Listening (keyboard feels sticky) |
07-13-15: Schubert
We probably don't know 20% of the variables in audio and most likely never will.
I had occasion few years ago to watch one of the acknowledged
best symphony space designers work on a multi-million upgrade to a hall, he said at the end of the day its cut and paste. Schubert - an observation. food for thought Its been my personal experience in seeing/hearing performances, and when I played trombone that the bass section players are always in the back. Interesting then ? when it comes to reproduction of this music in an audiophile music room; my experience has been that speaker manufacturers put the bass drivers in front of the midrange/tweeters as the bass waves are much different - slower. This is very evident with both my Quad 57's and B&W 801 Matrix s3 monitors. Now if the drivers are all on one even plane I imagine the same magic is being accomplished within the electronics circuitry. hmm... |
CtO517, couldn't agree more, The 2 speakers I mainly use both have sloped fronts , time alignment , as its often referred to.
Both the Meadowlarks and Gallos have only 1 capacitor to protect the tweeter .
When you get into complex crossovers IMO it can be done but the cure is usually worse that the disease . |
Slaw, my friend, with all due respect, you've got to get a grip. From my vantage point there is a very strong passive-aggressive bent in the way that you try to have a dialogue; that doesn't work too well for me. Listened to this earlier today (with my ET2, of course). Love YouTube however; no high expectations about sound quality, just the music. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRu18VpYEXk |
