Thx for the info and legwork. That'll be very helpful.
I pulled the fitting off the top outlet and will try a few possible options this afternoon.
One thought... is it better to run the 50psi into a surge, then regulate it down, or regulate first, then surge tank? I have a couple of heavy-wall PVC pipe surge tanks and did have them upstream of a regulator in the past, so they can take the pressure.
Yah, I do already have a regulator, but I'm planning to setup both arms in separate systems and will want a 2nd one. I prefer to have the regulator near enough to the system where I can see it and adjust if needed. So I'll use the contacts you sent to get the 2nd one.
On the pump being ugly, I wasn't joking... it had seen some use, see here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/330896465118?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 .
I found the maintenance manual and opened it up... all of the sound-deadening foam is crumbling, need to find replacement. And the pump may not be fully secured on its mounts... will look at it closer this weekend and start some R&R on it.
I not only have 2 ET, but started with an ET-I back in the day! When I got that, I knew I had the arm I'd die with!
Greg in Mississippi |
I looked a little more tonight and it is much worse than I thought... not un-recoverable, but needing a LOT more TLC than I expected knowing that it does run and produce pressure.
First the sound-absorbing foam has REALLY deteriorated. In the bottom, it is gooey & sticky & will be a real pain to get out and off all of the components there.
In the top, it is crumbly... will be easy to remove, just probably dusty.
Then the pump not only has broken loose, but has banged around a good bit and what I believe is part of the plastic housing or trim around it has broken into medium to small bits... of course, all imbedded in the foam.
I need to clean the foam out and off the pump and other internal components and take stock of whether that destroyed housing is a critical part of the pump's function (I suspect it helps in cooling the pump) and whether I need to replace it. Good thing is that I think I see the motor mounts (looks like they were not part of that housing) and if they are not sound, the pump has a standard mounting flange... I can always put it on a piece of MDF and mount that to the springs
And then the whole thing probably needs a rebuild.
Well, MUCH more work than I planned and expected, but that it runs means there is still hope.
It looks like the motor broke loose and banged around a long time ago, given how the pieces of the broken housing are distributed through the foam fragments. Shipping probably didn't help, but I doubt this much damage was caused in just one trip.
Greg in Mississippi |
Greg -
I get ebay alerts on the Timeter as I am always on the lookout for a second one.
The link you posted - I remember that one and thinking - man that is rough.
For the shelf the motor hangs off to rot to the point that it came loose and it banged around makes me wonder what type of environment it was kept it and whether it was left in the rain for some time.
Water under the bridge now - no use thinking about - this is what I would do.
I'm assuming the motor and fan still operate ?
Remove all insulation as you say.
Put in another shelf (it slides in and out easy enough) and remount the hanging motor.
Once this is complete and this part is very important.
Get an empty regular hand size water bottle.
Fill 1/3 with CLR. insert the water/moisture spring loaded exhaust nozzle into the bottle.
Leave overnight.
Next day you will see what kind of environment it was run in by how much crud gets dislodged into the container.
Remove the bottle and cap it for reuse later.
Start it up and the pump will blow the remainder of the crud out through the nozzle if any remains.
The pump will now purr better and run cooler if the nozzle was partially clogged. Turn it on and see how hot the motor gets.
It is hot to touch normally. Make sure there is no obstruction on the bottom under the fan.
The air exits from the bottom.
The housing shape above the motor (that broke to pieces on hours) helps the air run through shelf opening and by the motor - there are wide slots on the top of the upside down half bowl shape to help with this. By removing the insulation you will also have helped cooling as well I believe.
Let me know how you make out. |
(that broke to pieces on hours)
should be (that broke to pieces on yours)- wish there was a way to edit. |
Greg - the current pump issues aside. I not only have 2 ET, but started with an ET-I back in the day! Holy Moly ! you are in a very unique position. This thread is at well over quarter million views. I am sure many would probably like to hear the differences you experienced between the two. I know I would ! when u have some time .... Cheers |
LOL.
I'll try to respond to the ET-I vs II in more detail later this week... bottom line, I really liked the way the air bearing and arm base mounted mechanically on the ET-I and have always thought that upgrading the arm-spindle, arm-headshell, and cartridge interfaces while retaining the ability to adjust VTA and the secure bearing mounting might have made a more rigid arm.
Back on the pump, I looked at it again and see that the pump has just come loose from the springs. The intermediate shelf looks solid and the springs are still attached there. What I can see of the spring mounts on the pump look ok too.
I suspect it was banged around or dropped and that pulled the pump loose from the springs... and then it was banged around a lot afterwards to nearly pulverize the plastic housing.
I really have to pull on some rubber gloves and scrape-out all the remaining sound-deadening foam, then use lacquer thinner to remove the residue in the pump compartment as it is very gooey and sticky (and hard to clean off). It may be a few weeks before I can get to that... need to be able to do it outside and during the day in the light. But only after I do that will I be able to see the full condition.
Again, I appreciate your help and suggestions, especially on the checkout and the info for getting another regulator (I have confirmed the one I already have IS a Schrader Bellows, but again, I need a 2nd one).
One other area where you could assist... you linked to a composite picture above. One section showed the opened pump compartment. I've downloaded it, but it is pretty low-res and I can't enlarge it to see more details. Can you send me the hi-res version of that picture via email? I'll contact you by the A-Gon system to provide my email.
Again, many, many thanks!
Greg in Mississippi |
I remember very clearly that one of the things that reviewers seemed to agree on when comparing the newly released ET2 to the ET1 was the more powerful and more extended bass performance of the ET1. This was described as the one area where the original bested the 2. I would be particularly interested in how the arm wand attached to the bearing tube in the ET1; amount of decoupling and any other physical differences between the two arms that might contribute to this difference. Thanks. |
Frogman.
Look to the other end of the arm and compare the counterweight attachment. If you are using a low compliance cart on an ET2, this is the main cause of diminished bass extension. Calculate your FR using the ET2 manual formula. Around 7Hz or above and you are missing the lowest registers. The math on this is very clear.
Further the quite flexible goose neck and arm pillar on the ET2 don't help. |
Frogman, I had the luxury of having both the ET1 and ET2 in my showroom in the 80's mounted on a variety of turntables along with other top arms of the day such as SME V, Zeta, Alphason, Dynavector, Odyssey, Sumiko The Arm, Goldmund, Syrinx PU2/3, etc The ET1 had a bloated bass, slower and less tuneful than the ET2. The ET2 was clearly more transparent than the ET1 by a considerable margin. The improvements to the ET2 are as follows : Decoupled Counterweight - This offers 3 advantages. The decoupled counterweight reduces the horizontal mass The decoupled counterweight splits the low frequency fundamental resonance, which results in two peaks of lower amplitude, improving the LF performance as demonstrated in Thigpens testing. The decoupled counterweight provides the capability to tune the decoupling spring to the cartridge. The maths may be taxing for some, but the Thigpens ET site has documented test results demonstrating the advantage of the decoupled counterweight design. It is incomprehensible as to why any individual would ignore Thigpens test results and convert the ET2 back to the ET1 format in respect of the counterweight, unless their system does not have the resolution to take advantage of this patented decoupled counterweight design, which yields a quicker and more tuneful bass as you have found in your testing. Adjustable VTA that maintains correct position of the stylus The tower provides easy adjustment to ensure the level of the horizontal bearing is congruent to the platter surface. Here is a pic http://www.eminent-tech.com/history/modelone.jpg |
Dover.
Up till recently you have been telling us all repeatedly that the counterweight decoupling spring is active at eccentric record frequencies and that at these frequencies my arm is up to 300% heavier than a standard ET2. We now all know that you are wrong and that the spring is in fact rigid at this low frequency making the effective mass seen by the cart in standard ET2's in the same ball park as my arm with a fixed counterweight.
The math which proves this effect, below FR, shows that above FR the decoupling spring is active and it dramatically reduces the arms effective mass. This is a brilliant solution if you are using a high compliance cartridge. But this same math shows that if the FR is around 7Hz or above, we get bass attenuation. Low compliance carts will exhibit a FR in this danger zone of 7Hz and above. If we fix the counterweight, to push FR below the danger zone, we unfortunately get a big, high Q peak at FR. Exactly what the leaf spring fixes for us. So there is a conundrum here. Live without the last bit of bass extension or fix the counterweight and experience bloated bass performance, not due to excessive bass but due to the FM phase problems propagating up from FR into the audible spectrum. On the bloated bass topic we agree.
But there are solutions to this. Run the arm at pressures below design and dress the lead out wires to resist lateral movement. Not a very elegant solution but it kinda works. Or far more effective, ran at design pressures and use an oil trough. See BT's test data on this where he uses his arm "set up so that a high amplitude Q existed" (a fixed counterweight exhibits a high Q) and then adds the oil trough. The resultant response graph he publishes in the oil trough manual, shows a critically damped system with zero resonant peak and importantly he mentions "the ET2 with a damping trough will exhibit almost perfect low frequency phase response"
No more bloated bass and with full LF extension. Lovely. |
01-28-14: Richardkrebs
Dover.
Up till recently you have been telling us all repeatedly that the counterweight decoupling spring is active at eccentric record frequencies and that at these frequencies my arm is up to 300% heavier than a standard ET2. We now all know that you are wrong Yet again you have misquoted me. I said that your arm is 300% heavier than standard based on the information you provided. You claimed that you had added 30g of lead mass to the 25g spindle and that you had converted the decoupled counterweight (30g+) to a fixed counterweight. 01-28-14: Richardkrebs
The math which proves this effect, below FR, shows that above FR the decoupling spring is active and it dramatically reduces the arms effective mass. So now you have contradicted yourself and agree that the decoupling reduces the effective mass. This means that based on your assertion that you added 30g of lead to your arm and removed the decoupling then you have indeed increased the effective mass by 300% or thereabouts. 01-28-14: Richardkrebs
If we fix the counterweight, to push FR below the danger zone, we unfortunately get a big, high Q peak at FR. Exactly what the leaf spring fixes for us. So there is a conundrum here. Live without the last bit of bass extension or fix the counterweight and experience bloated bass performance, not due to excessive bass but due to the FM phase problems propagating up from FR into the audible spectrum. On the bloated bass topic we agree. You now concede that fixing the counterweight will generate bloated bass as documented on Bruce Thigpens website. Since you also have acknowledged that fixing the counterweight increases the effective mass above FR, then fixing the counterweight will have deleterious effects on bass, midrange, treble - where the music is. 01-28-14: Richardkrebs
But there are solutions to this. Run the arm at pressures below design and dress the lead out wires to resist lateral movement. Not a very elegant solution but it kinda works. This is a terrible solution. You are proposing to run the arm at air pressures below the air bearings design parameters and/or increase resistance to lateral motion by putting tension on the lead out wires. Others on this thread including Frogman, Slaw, Ct0517 have reported significant improvements in sound quality by increasing the operating pressure and reducing any drag added by the lead out wires. You are proposing the opposite. Most systems with a reasonable level of resolution are capable of demonstrating the effects of increasing horizontal effective mass. 01-28-14: Richardkrebs
Or far more effective, ran at design pressures and use an oil trough. See BT's test data on this where he uses his arm "set up so that a high amplitude Q existed" (a fixed counterweight exhibits a high Q) and then adds the oil trough. The resultant response graph he publishes in the oil trough manual, shows a critically damped system with zero resonant peak and importantly he mentions "the ET2 with a damping trough will exhibit almost perfect low frequency phase response"
No more bloated bass and with full LF extension. Lovely. You have misunderstood BT's testing protocols and conclusions. BT says "the ET2 with a damping trough will exhibit almost perfect low frequency phase response". He is referring to a standard ET2 that has not had lead mass added and has not had the decoupling removed. It should be noted that the damping paddle is designed to provide dampening in the vertical plane, but less so in the horizontal plane. This is why it is wide and thin. The fluid damping is designed to address record groove irregularities which cause scrubbing and oscillation as the stylus tracks. This is documented on BT's website and is also documented in the Shure white papers on trackability. In summary the changes you have made to your ET2 including adding mass and removing the decoupling are contrary to the fundamental design principles and advantages of the ET2 and should be discarded. |
Thanks for the comments. I had forgotten that the ET1's counterweight arrangement was not decoupled. While I can't speak to why the reviewers that I mentioned considered the weightier bass of the 1 to be "superior", I do agree with Dover that, based on my experimentation, decoupling the counter weight wand does result in bass that is more tuneful and correctly speedy than with more direct coupling. |
Dover.
"yet again you miss quote me"
I think not. See your post 03-13-13. Where you go to great lengths to show, incorrectly, that when tracing eccentric records, my arm is 300% heavier than a standard ET2.
The leaf spring is inactive at eccentric record frequencies. ALL ET2's and my arm are of similar effective mass as seen by the cartridge under these conditions.
I am on record stating the clear superiority of the oil trough over my previous low pressure damping method.
Dover
"provide damping in the vertical plane and less in the horizontal"
Wrong. A quote from the oil trough manual "The design of the paddle and its position mean that it will be much more effective for damping horizontal resonances than vertical"
This is a simple paddle shape and lever effect. The arm has no leverage over the oil paddle in the horizontal plane but has the full length of the arm wand in the vertical. The target is horizontal damping. This is why BT publishes the before and after responses of horizontal resonance. Where the nasty high Q resonant peak is effectively eliminated.
Frogman.
If you are using a low compliance cartridge, have you tried a properly stiff fixed counterweight with an oil trough fitted? Disabling the leaf spring(s), say by wedging match sticks in the gaps, gives a hint at the effect, but the counterweight I beam is too flexible (it was never designed to be stiff) to show the true differences.
|
Hi Greg I looked at it again and see that the pump has just come loose from the springs. The intermediate shelf looks solid and the springs are still attached there. What I can see of the spring mounts on the pump look ok too.
I suspect it was banged around or dropped and that pulled the pump loose from the springs... and then it was banged around a lot afterwards to nearly pulverize the plastic housing. that is a little better news. the shipper must have had the thing close to upside down at one point for it to come off one of the springs? That Timeter pump hanging in its enclosure, reminds me of the pics and videos I have seen in the past of those eccentric vinyl guys (women audiophiles would never do this ?) who hang their entire turntables from the ceiling beams with long thick cables for isolation and to avoid vibrations. Thats the idea here as well and the first time of I have ever seen a motor mounted this way. Look forward to hearing your progress with it. Cheers |
Greg.
Good luck with the pump rebuild.
Chris has taught me the extreme importance of the air supply. A good smooth source of air lifts the arms performance considerably.
|
****Chris has taught me the extreme importance of the air supply. A good smooth source of air lifts the arms performance considerably. ****
Completely agree; and analogous (pun intended) to the importance of good clean (smooth) power for our electronics. |
Richardkrebs
I did not say that the mass of your arm is “300% heavier at these frequencies”. I have said that your horizontal effective mass is 300% heavier than standard.
Your arm is 300% heavier than standard. You added 30g of lead and removing the decoupled counterweight increases effective horizontal mass above FR. These 2 changes have increased the horizontal effective mass of your arm by some 300%.
Since the removal of the decoupling increases the horizontal effective mass above FR - FR for most systems would be below 10hz, then we can say that the increase in horizontal effective mass of some 300% will affect all reproduction above 10hz.
As far as below FR goes, your argument is the cantilever does not flex below FR. I dont agree with this as confirmed by Bruce Thigpen in his correspondence. I have seen cantilevers flex on eccentric records and will post a video at some stage.
However the cantilever and suspension still see this mass.
As far as the damping paddle goes, Bruce Thigpen provides this option for the standard ET2. Thigpen does not sell an ET2 with a fixed counterweight and 30g of added lead. Your claims that one can achieve a flat response in the bass with a fixed counterweight and 30g of added lead mass are not supported by any testing. |
Frogman & Ct0517: I feel the need to admit the fact I was wrong. Early on in this thread, there was a discussion regarding the sonics of "The Nightfly" lp. I've been modifying my wall panels and decided to replay this lp. My verdict is while it's obviously a digital recording, I can now listen to it and enjoy! Ahhh! CT0517, you were right, it was my room. |
Ct0517: (While you all are on compressors),I finally took my Jun-Air to be repaired. I am excited about it's return and my thought to add the ability to expand it's capacity by way of an extra air tank. By the way, it's a 6-25 not a 16-25 as I mistakenly wrote earlier. |
Richardkrebs: My "low cost" way to smooth out air pulses to null and at the same time trap any and all moisture has seemingly been lost in this thread. For around $100 one can have it all in a small package, low maintainence, HIGH performance in an "all-in-one" product. The Motorguard filter... the M-30 & M-60, I use the M-30 in my stereo system as it comes with a mounting bracket and readily accepts the fittings we normally use in this application. If one wants to investigate there are user forums one can search on line. I highly recommend it! |
Ct0517: Regarding my arm and for which pressure it was designed.... I found a receipt stating "high pressure manifold", remember, this was way back when this option was first introduced. This and the fact that I am getting optimum sound from exactly 18.5psi, to me, confirms the fact that what I'm hearing correlates to this discussion.
Again, FWIW. |
Wow, when I post, I post!
If this has been addressed in the past, I apologize... I notice some choose to "hang or mount" their counterweights from the top of the I-beam. I choose to hang mine from the bottom.
In the past, (a long time ago), I A-B'd these settings and preferred the way I do it. From my logical standpoint, I would think hanging the counterweights below the center of gravity, from the spindle's point of view, would be the preferred method. Any takers? |
Well, it's 2:20 EST and no response.
My last post. I feel if we aren't referencing a specific lp, how in the heck can we continue to go on as if there is something else as our reference?
We can go on and on about this and that but in the end we come back to the music. I'm feeling that this is what some may be afraid of? |
Sharing part of an interesting article I am came across today on vinyl.
(Reproduced in part from the entertainment section of today's Toronto Star Newspaper)
-------------------------------------------------------
Interviewer - But what, exactly, are we talking about when we say that vinyl sounds warm?
“The bottom line? As humans listening, we do not like square waves,” says renowned producer/mastering engineer Peter J. Moore, known for his legendary one-microphone recording of the Cowboy Junkies’ Trinity Sessions.
OK, so in layman’s terms, what is a square wave?
“It’s when you go from absolutely quiet to super loud with no time at all,” says Moore, who has also worked with everyone from Holly Cole to Neil Young.
Sensing, shall we say, a lack of comprehension on the other end of the line, Moore gamely tries to illustrate his point without the benefit of diagrams or hand gestures. (Any perceived ambiguity in his explanation is our fault, not his.)
“If I slap two pieces of wood right beside your ear, that’s about the only time in the real world that you would feel a square wave,” he says.
“That would make you jump out of your skin.
“Digital, especially MP3s, reproduce square waves like crazy. That actually upsets people! You’re triggering your fear, which also triggers fatigue. It’s unnatural.
“Now, if I was across the room and slapped two sticks together, it would take time for that wave to travel to you and by then the square wave has rounded off.”
And what does that have to do with vinyl?
“A turntable playing a vinyl record could not reproduce a square wave if it tried.”
Why can’t it?
“If I have a wire that’s one-inch long, it takes no time for sound to travel over that wire. But in the coil in a turntable cartridge, that wire is very long and it’s wrapped around a magnet. So it takes a lot of time to get through that magnet and come out the other side. By the time it comes out, the sharpness, the ugliness has been rounded.
“That,” says Moore, “is what people mean by warm.”
(Reproduced in part from the entertainment section of today's Toronto Star Newspaper) |
fwiw - I found the analogy of hitting the two sticks closeup to your ear and at a distance very interesting. Never heard it explained this way before. |
Dover.
I quote directly from your post of 03-13-13
*********On an eccentric record the acceleration will be the same for each arm –
0.0024metres / (1.8 sec x 1.8sec) = 0.00074 metres per second squared
The horizontal effective masses of the 3 arms mentioned in this thread are:
Kuzma has been quoted as 100g
Terminator 80g
ET2 25g
The force on the cantilever is as follows:
Kuzma = 0.1kg x 0.00074m/s2 = 0.000074 Newtons
Terminator = 0.08kg x 0.00074 m/s2 = 0.000059 Newtons
ET2 = 0.025kg x 0.00074 m/s2 = 0.000018 Newtons
Summarising then you can see that the increased mass of the Terminator and Kuzma arms increase the lateral forces on the cantilever by 300-400% over the ET2.
Now Krebs has modified his ET2 by adding 30gm of lead to the spindle. This adds 30g to the effective mass of the "ET2. Krebs also couples the counterweight ( no spring ) which adds another 30g to the horizontal effective mass.
So Krebs has increased the horizontal mass of the original ET2 from 0.025kg to 0.085kg.
The Krebs modifications have increased the lateral forces on the cantilever by over 300%**********
Dover
You stated in this post that the ET2's effective mass as seen by the cartridge WHEN TRACING AN ECCENTRIC RECORD was 25 gms.
This is not true. The effective mass of an ET2 below FR is the total mass of the arm including the weight of the counterweight. Depending upon cartridge and wand used this will be in the order of 75 to 95 gm. I say again, the leaf spring does not flex due to the action of tracing an eccentric record, so it does not lower the effective mass at these frequencies. The lateral forces imposed on my cartridge due to tracing an eccentric record are much the same as those imposed on a cartridge mounted in a standard ET2, Terminator and Kuzma. If the cantilever is flexing when tracing an eccentric record in my set up it is by definition flexing with a standard ET2 as well.
I am sure that others are finding this line of discussion tedious and for that I apologise.
Slaw.
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at M-30 M-60. Does this have an air bleed as well? I am already using a combination 3 micron filter and water trap. |
Richardkrebs,
You are wrong. You continue to put up an argument for adding lots of mass to the ET2 and removing the patented decoupling methodology of the counterweight. Your argument is based on a strawman hypothesis that only focuses of frequencies below FR. Bruce Thigpens exhaustive testing does not support your view. You continue to ignore what is happening above FR when the decoupling reduces the horizontal mass, and your horizontal effective mass is 300% higher than a standard ET2 ABOVE FR.
You claim that 300% higher horizontal mass above FR ( ABOVE FR ) and removing the decoupling is of no consequence. Bruce Thigpens testing that he has documented on his website clearly shows that you are wrong and the problems of increased resonance when the counterweight decoupling is removed are documented.
Your claim that high horizontal mass has no consequence suggests that Shure, Ortofon, David Fletcher ( of Sumiko ), Alisdair Aitken ( SME ), Bruce Thigpen and virtually every tonearm and cartridge manufacturer has got it wrong. Record grooves are cut at 45 degrees, both vertical and horizontal mass matter. You cannot increase horizontal mass ( ABOVE FR ) by 300% and expect no change.
In this thread Dgarretson has reduced the horizontal effective mass of his Terminator and yielded significant improvements in speed and resolution. Frogman has further decoupled his counterweight and yielded significant improvements in speed and resolution, more bass notes he says. I have tested fixed and decoupled counterweights some 30 years ago when the ET2 replaced the ET1, and yielded significant improvements with the decoupled counterweight even with very low compliance cartridges.
Bruce Thigpen has documented the problems of high horizontal mass as have Shure with their white papers on tracking.
None of your claims that a rigid counterweight and increased mass are supported by proper documented testing. Your argument is entirely based on theory, and it is flawed. Your maths that you quote continues to ignore the fact that the decoupled counterweight splits the fundamental resonant peak into 2 smaller peaks ( as demonstrated in the Stereophile review and Bruce Thigpens testing ) that has benefits of lowering distortion in the audible spectrum ( ABOVE FR ). You have used mathematical arguments that are not fully representative of the cartridge/arm resonant and tracking behaviour and are taken out of context.
I would suggest that you should buy a Kuzma arm which has been designed from the outset with a high Horizontal mass and has a fixed counterweight if you wish to throw away the advantages of the ET2 with its design goals of maintaining as low a mass as possible and minimising resonant peaks in the ultra low bass & minimising tracking distortion through the employment of the patented decoupled counterweight system.
|
Dover.
Sigh.... You need to read my posts properly. This is taking us nowhere.
Slaw.
I checked out the M-30 and M-60 filter. That is most impressive... 0.1 micron.
What regulator are you using? Testing with a small amount of air bleed in between my two filter regulators yielded strongly positive results. I suspect that this is due to some tiny instability in the regulators themselves.
I may experiment with a second bleed in between the last regulator and the arm. The arm should be a constant load, so bleed there should not result in varying pressure across the arms travel. |
For those who desire the best and the perfect match for the ET2, there is a rare opportunity to purchase a Kondo Ginga TT for sale here on audiogon. The Kondo Ginga is a derivative of my Final Audio Parthenon which is now unobtainable. In addition the Final Audio Parthenon has adjustable torque control of the motor and the SPZ base. I would expect however that the Kondo Ginga would be very close to the Final Audio Parthenon in offering unparallelled performance and resolution. Having used the ET2 for a number of years with my Final Audio Parthenon, this combination is unsurpassed. http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-ginga-kondo-ginga-2014-02-05-analog-italy-irwin-ohDisclaimer : I have no relationship with the vendor who is unknown to me. |
Chris, you are a brave man opening up the proverbial can of analog vs digital worms. Perhaps the relative insulation of the ET thread will keep a discussion from getting out of control. The comments about square waves are very interesting, but it is not clear to me what, exactly, the author is trying to say. While I can't dispute his assertion that analog is unable to "reproduce" a square wave the way that digital can, I don't see that as a liability and take exception to the implication (as I read it) that analog is "warm" compared to digital as a result of some shortcoming or distortion; that it is less accurate. Additionally, the comment about the reason for this being, in part, the length of a cartridge's coil windings just doesn't hold water because, as you know better than most, the "warmth" of analog is found, even more so, in RR playback. It is true that analog is "warm" compared to digital. However, it is warm the way that real, live music CAN BE warm; it is not a distortion. It can also sound nasty and ugly the way live music sometimes is. Someone please tell me what I am missing here, but the author's comment: "Digital, especially MP3s, reproduce square waves like crazy. That actually upsets people! You’re triggering your fear, which also triggers fatigue. It’s unnatural." does not make sense to me. Does he not mean to say that digital "produces" square waves as they are generated by logic circuits in digital processing?
Now, before the arrows start flying, we all know that both analog and digital can sound very very good. But, to these ears, eventhough some digital playback can OVERALL (and depending on one's priorities) sound better that some analog, there is always a certain quality to analog that IN SOME WAYS, for me, brings it closer to the sound of real than even the best digital; and there is a certain quality to digital that, for me, always says DIGITAL (square waves?). Sorry if that offends anyone, but that is simply the way I hear it. It is not because of any bias, delusion or stubbornness, but simply a result of being around the sound of live instruments for hours practically every day; and my set of priorities in stereo playback.
Slaw, your comments about needing to always go "back to the music" and about "Nightfly" are right on and very apropos, but I am not sure what you mean by saying that some may be afraid of that. In fact, I would like to respectfully (and in the spirit of lively debate) take you to task. When I first mentioned "Nightfly" (quite a while ago) you felt that you couldn't listen to it because of its sound quality. To say that I was surprised would be an understatement due to my feeling that (especially for a digital recording) it was very good sounding and "fun" in a heavily-produced studio recording kind of way; a feeling shared by many. I am glad that solving some "room issues" now allows you to enjoy that recording, and I can only assume that recordings that were previously fine sounding are now simply spectacular. But, I guess that what "going back to the music" means to me is being able to enjoy the music even if the recording quality is less than stellar. I am having some trouble accepting the fact that your room was so problematic that it rendered that particular recording unlistenable. I will concede that the recording is clearly digital sounding, but it is not grating and has less of that typically digital quality that I would best describe this way: remember the old "Star Trek" TV show, and how when the crew would be teleported ("beam me up Scotty"), the image of the person being teleported would appear to be separated into molecule size dots before disappearing or reappearing. That's how digital images often times sound to me, there is a lack of completeness to the image density that analog seems to have even when there are deficiencies in other areas. There is also a completeness of rhythmic density (?) that gives music the warmth of human rhythmic expression and interplay that seems to be a challenge for a lot of digital recordings.
Thanks for the update on "Nightlfy", glad you are enjoying it and try to find Wayne Shorter's "Atlantis" for a wonderful analog recording in a contemporary jazz fusion (hate using that term but....) bag from one of the greatest player/composers of all time. Sealed copies are not difficult to find. |
02-01-14: Slaw
Wow, when I post, I post!
If this has been addressed in the past, I apologize... I notice some choose to "hang or mount" their counterweights from the top of the I-beam. I choose to hang mine from the bottom.
In the past, (a long time ago), I A-B'd these settings and preferred the way I do it. From my logical standpoint, I would think hanging the counterweights below the center of gravity, from the spindle's point of view, would be the preferred method. Any takers? Anyone that is an ET2-er for any real length of time; the big question of choice will come to you. Do I do an IN-e or an OUT-e, with the lead weights ? An IN'e requires a ton more weight (figuratively speaking) Fully loaded down version baby. Think teeter totter of childhood days with two friends. One is the same weight as you the other 50 lbs more. The heavier friend needs to sit inside more to balance out things. The same physics applies here, except the friend has a leaf spring on his side. Which friend would you prefer to ride with? This hobby is about free choice, personal choice and enjoyment. If you call Bruce and ask him for an opinion he will say what makes sense as a manufacturer, and as it relates to his business. SOME FACTS An OUT-e requires more thought (a certain combination of weights) to get out to the end. Its the stripped down version. Light on its feet. The ET2 was designed with Adjustable Effective Mass ************************************************************ PAGE 9 The effective mass is adjustable both vertically and horizontally. The arm has low to medium mass vertically. Medium to High mass horizontally. Four counterweights allow the vertical and horizontal mass to be changed. For example: if the user decreases the amount of counterweights used, and moved this position back (higher scale number) the horizontal inertia would go down and the vertical inertia would go up. ************************************************************ PAGE 24 We believe that for a light cartridge. The smallest number of counterweights should be used. This raises the vertial inertia of the arm. (because it is low) and decreases the horizontal inertia (because it is high). bringing the mass of the arm to a more desirable figure. It will always be lower vertically than horizontally which is desirable. ************************************************************ IMO the word "light" should just be deleted as it really applies to "all" cartridges. My personal experiences have been whenever vertical inertia is increased, bass gets better defined and tuneful. |
Hi Frogman
I came across that article while having my Sunday morning coffee.
I am now having Sat Morning coffee.
Same black coffee made from beans.
Package reads 100 % Columbian Premium Whole Bean Coffee.
Company name is Zavida, Purchased at Costco. I prefer it to Tim Hortons :^)
I listen to digital and LP all the time. I can have an all digital listening session and enjoy it.
I have a lot of music on cd that I do not have on vinyl.
But when I switch to vinyl it stays there. it doesn't go back to digital later on. thats just me.
The only part of the article that stands out to me still is the analogy of hitting sticks - near a person ear and at a distance.
No idea if hitting a stick near a persons ear comes close to a square wave.
That article left a lot to personal interpretation, along with saying some things that electronically I don't think are possible.
I threw it out there because it was a little off the wall and different. Why not ?
What better thread to do this on. A heavily moderated one.
I am not very good at describing what I am hearing and you are very eloquent at this.
You have shown this here, as well as other threads at Audiogon.
Assuming you have a copy of the same recording on both CD and LP.
Assuming this is a recording that you would consider "very average" from an sound engineering perspective.
Not focusing on how the actual performances in the recording are.
Can you tell us what you hear - differences - between the two when you play the CD and LP?
I would be very interested in hearing how you describe this.
It would carry a lot more weight than the article to me.
Cheers.
|
Hi Chris, I would be glad to share some thoughts about that. I am on tour in Asia for a couple of weeks with limited internet access and will post when I have a window of opportunity. Regards. |
Richardkrebs: I'm using the air regulator I previously posted... the Motronix knock-off, Schrader , model 35501030,
it does expel air, this is to keep any pulsing action to a minimum as the arm sees it. However, with the M-30, this is a non-issue.
My feeling is that when I receive my Jun-Air 6-25 back from repair, although it does cut off after building up pressure in it's tank/s, I'll be pleasantly surprised if there is any at all, sonic benefit, from this arrangement. I say this because I'm SO confident in the M-30 and it's filtering properties!! |
Slaw
Yes I remember your post now.
Thanks for that.
Will be interesting to read your comments on changes, if any, with the Jun Air.
Looking at these compressors on line, they appear to be very high quality.
Do you or any one else have any opinions on them?
Thanks |
This seems to be a good place to ask this. I have an ET-2 on my VPI HW-19 MKIII. I have not had this very long so i am still getting it fine tuned. One thing i noticed was that when it gets near the inner grooves it will start to skip. The tonearm it not against the manifold but I think it is getting more resistance. Any suggestions to fix this? |
Make sure that the bearing spindle is perfectly clean; I am sure that you have done that. Then, and the likely problem, make sure that the the bolt securing the bearing spindle to the "joint" is not too tight. This will cause the spindle tube to become deformed and will cause this problem. Lastly, and the most complicated solution, the air capillaries in the manifold may be clogged and need cleaning. Others will chime in with suggestions. |
Hi Aguser - welcome to the thread. 03-30-14: Aguser
This seems to be a good place to ask this. I have an ET-2 on my VPI HW-19 MKIII. I have not had this very long so i am still getting it fine tuned. One thing i noticed was that when it gets near the inner grooves it will start to skip. The tonearm it not against the manifold but I think it is getting more resistance. Any suggestions to fix this? Based on your info you sound like a new ET2 user who has just purchased the used ET2 and VPI combo. I was this exact same person over 10 years with a MKIV table and the same problem. In my case the previous owner did not know what to do so he sold the table. Assuming the wiring exits the arm at the counterweight cap and goes down through the plinth? In addition to what Frogman said I would perform these four steps. I believe your problem will be a combination of them. A very easy fix. 1) Ensure spindle is clean especially on the armtube side as this is the spindle portion in the manifold when at the inner grooves - isopropyl and clean cloth. 2) Platter not level - the back end is higher. The ET2 is climbing a hill. Is the VPI table plinth that the ET2 is on - in the same level plane as the platter itself ? For now Ignore the plinth and level the platter only. Place a line level on the platter portion path the cartridge takes - ensure its level. 3) ET2 not level - get some Blutack. http://www.blutack.com/Make a flat pancake shape size of a silver dollar and place it on the lead weights. Remove or add Blue tack until the arm free floats. Does it stay free floating or does it want to slide to the front ? Position the ET2 at the start, middle and end of the record positions. Ensure the wires are not pulling on it when it is on the outside part of record; and pushing it like antiskate on a pivot arm, when on the inside part of the record. Now adjust the bolts if not level. Its important to not put too much pressure downward on the two bolts as you may crack the casing. When I adjust these bolts I like to back off pressure on both vertical bolts first; and then re adjust pressure. If the platter and ET2 are indeed level, and it still has a problem on inner grooves it is most likely the wires giving push back or the pump is down 1/2 psi if the original one ? This was my problem - the pump was down 1/2 psi. 4) Wires not positioned properly - they are pushing on the arm. They are causing the most push back on the inner groove because this is when they are most likely bent the most. I recommend you bypass those wires but for now re position them so that there is no pushback with the blutack in place when the arm is positioned over the inner grooves. Let us know how you make out. Cheers (Holy Moly this thread is showing on my views page summary again - approaching 325,000 views) |
Richardkrebs: I finally introduced the Jun-Air 6-25 into my system. I had it modified to allow the use of an additional air tank. I'm still using my tried and true Motorguard M-30 filter. The only thing that has changed was taking my Timeter PCS 414 (a compressor that runs constantly)out and putting the Jun-Air in. To my surprise there is additional openness/transparency now. This results in greater frequency extension, dynamics and transient response. These compressors run extremely quiet, around 45db, and are known for producing 'clean' air. I'm very happy with the results. |
Aguser: A couple other thoughts: Is your tonearm wire run in a manner that allows the arm to move freely/no resistance at the lp extremes? Also, everything has to be very level. |
The difference I noticed comparing compressors is not night & day. It is however noticeable to me and I think a seasoned listener would notice. (This is a testament to how effective my Motorguard filter is) A lot of baby steps... in the end result in a more enjoyable, meaningful listening experience |
Aguser, You will really do yourself a favor by taking to heart, Frogman & Ct0517's advice! My 'chiming in' on "leveling" is from 25+ years of experience with this arm. It does not hurt to level everything then "re-level". No kidding. Purchase an 'accurate' level. Don't take for granted that VPI, for instance, has provided you with a product that is "spot on". VPI out-sources their products to manufacturers that perform their duties to a certain "price" standard. This standard is no more than the "you get what you pay for" standard. I assume that now you have purchased the VPI Mk 3 and the ET, you are passionate about audio reproduction in your home. The purchase of the ET represents a forgone conclusion that you are and have every intention of reproducing excellent audio reproduction in your listening room. This tonearm is the equivelant of a long term relationship. One that will reward you by the more time/care/love that you are willing to put into it.
If I had this forum available to me 25 years ago, I'd be a different person. You have, right now, all the information regarding this arm available to you for your pleasure. All you have to do is take it to heart. |
Slaw.
Many thanks for the info. It just goes to show, all over again, how important the air supply is.
cheers. |
Slaw
The purchase of the ET represents a forgone conclusion that you are and have every intention of reproducing excellent audio reproduction in your listening room. This tonearm is the equivalent of a long term relationship. One that will reward you by the more time/care/love that you are willing to put into it. Very well said Slaw. IMO you hit on ownership of this tonearm at its heart. The ET2 and ET 2.5, imo, are also like those rare products that put you in touch with your own mortality. Meaning in my case - thank you Bruce Thigpen for making a product that will probably last longer than me; and it lets me know this whenever I use it :^( I am being a little sarcastic obviously, but really I ask in this day and age ... how many products today fall into this category ? When set up per manual - consistent, reliable, can be modded, is tuneable, can accommodate all cartridges with appropriate armtube. Has already passed the hardest test of all. Time. I recently came upon this audiogon thread..... I think ET2'ers tend to take VTA for granted ? I guess I do too. We've discussed this topic here before. Note the comments from Lyra cartridge designer Johnathan Carr Cheers |
Ct0517,
We should note the findings of the many long time users here on this thread that take the ET to a much greater listener experience than even Bruce eluded to in his own manual. Those who have followed this thread closely will know exactly what I'm referring to. (Hence the "long term relationship")
There are several things that weren't specified in Bruce's manual. This IS the reason that this thread is SO valuable to me and to other interested parties!
(I'm ready for a long term relationship, if, and only if, I can find a female music lover that is committed to this arm!)LOL! |
To all: My 25 + years of experience in audio, all comes down to this: common sense, logic, & listening.
Regarding the ET arm
(1) Logic: It's design allows the user/listener to track an lp as the original 'cutter head' does. (This is important)!
(2) Common sense: (Refer to the comment above) It's very gratifying that two of my "points" are in sync with one another. This is not "by chance".
(3) Does your listening time, make you want to either, quit or put thoughts in your head about the "next" time you can listen?
When your ET is set up RIGHT, (this isn't a forgon conclusion") you will say to yourself, "DAMN GOOD!", 'ALRIGHT", "This is what I always thought it should be'!
These days, time and time again, I just want to plop down in my listening seat and let life pass over me while I soak in the MUSIC! Life can be good. For me, right now, after 25 years of system building... life is Very, Very , Good!!! |
Ct0517: "None!" How many other tonearm owners are advocating their virtues?!!!
OK, Here's my ultimate lp recommendation! There are very few times that all of the stars align. This/these are those times.
The was a label: Audioquest, from years ago....
Majic.........
Something happens when people just want the very best, forgetting about there personal interests.
This, my friends, are the lps that represent the "very best". It will most likely never be produced again!
The Audioquest label gave us some FINE lps!
I can only remark on the ones that I own.
Robert Lucas, "Luke & the Locomotives"
"Usin'"Mans's Blues"
Terry Evans. "Puttin' It Down"
So, what's the difference? IMO, It's obviously the recording engineer, "Joe Harley", plus the total lack of compression!!!!!!!!!
Even the bass has noticeable transient response! Can you say that about any current,recording you are currently enamored with? Hell no!
If you have the time, seek these out! |
Hi Slaw, thanks for the lp recommendations. A Blues Man.... you are :^) Hope you don't mind; I put your recommendations in clickable form below to share with the others. Slaw
The Audioquest label gave us some FINE lps!
I can only remark on the ones that I own.
So, what's the difference? IMO, It's obviously the recording engineer, "Joe Harley", plus the total lack of compression! Terry Evans. "Puttin' It Down"Robert Lucas, "Luke & the Locomotives"
"Usin'"Mans's Blues"(I'm ready for a long term relationship, if, and only if, I can find a female music lover that is committed to this arm!)LOL! Slaw, well for me I have to say I am very happy that my wife puts up with my audio "shenanigans". I get away with alot...I don't want to push it anymore. however the further she stays away from the 2.0 and 2.5 the better. For you however let imagine this scenario. You are attending a big audio musical event. You visit one of the "big rooms", one where the sponsoring audio manufacturer has paid big bucks for the space. Ultra "high end gear" in there, and obviously this includes an analog setup. There are many people in this room. Turntable cost - $100,000 us. Tonearm cost - $15,000 us Cartridge cost - $7,000 us. The look on their faces when "this" person walks in......priceless $$ Happy Listening |
Fabulous piece of equipment!
Not a bad tonearm either :-)
Would love one of those t.... , ah, I mean, Tshirts.
Do you have a source?
Thanks. |
Frogman - Your post made me spit up my drink. lol. Do you have a source? Where there is audiophile will - there is always a way. if there is interest... |
