fiesta75473 posts07-02-2021 2:23pmSpeakers are very subjective. I personally like speakers that are efficient, 93dB/watt@1m or greater. Concentric or coaxial mounted drivers best, 2nd is vertically aligned drivers as close together as possible. Only one driver for the tweeter frequencies, 8kHz. or higher.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ have to agree, although it is a bit ofa oddity. Subjective-ity. But its true Some folks like xover designs. They have no interest at all in wide band. Whereas for me, its always been a search for what will voice classical the best. It took some time, But I finally made the FR/wide band/high sensitivity discovery, Its in my nature to seek and explore. While others here, xovers til the end. I prefer wide band /FR vs concentric and any other high sens type design. Yes cutoff point is 92db/93db. 91db is too low for my music. In spite of the fact I have a 100watt channel tube amp, Yeah I know complete overkill. Xover designs rarely go above 91db. Seas Thors are a miserable 87db. World calss drivers, but dated as far as sens issues. I think high sens will be the new thing in the near future. Just have to EDU folks about this superior design. |
Speakers are very subjective. I personally like speakers that are efficient, 93dB/watt@1m or greater. Concentric or coaxial mounted drivers best, 2nd is vertically aligned drivers as close together as possible. Only one driver for the tweeter frequencies, 8kHz. or higher. |
@johnk I think you pretty well summed it up. If you really want full range and lifelike sound you’ve got to be willing to accommodate the physical size requirements necessary to facilitate it naturally. Otherwise, you’re reduced to trying to bludgeon it out of suboptimal boxes. |
Small loudspeakers are highly compromised designs the bologna of audiophile products. Designed just as much as sound quality to fit a certain num on a pallet. More effort goes into making a small marketable product as does sound quality considerations. The consumer is told large is bad in modern design. But when dealing with wave reproduction small just doesn't cut it we hamstring our loudspeaker designs by making them overly small and requiring much power to function. This heats up VC causing listening fatigue small bass systems have much higher distortion, large sensitive loudspeakers do not suffer from such but can be large, and large is not a design problem it's the way it should be. |
audiokinesis2,577 posts05-21-2006 11:05pmI think Sean covered the issue quite well.
In my opinion the single biggest downside to high efficiency is that you will need a bigger box to get the same bass extension. If you want the advantages of high efficiency (improved dynamic contrast, for instance) you either have to live with a bigger box, reduced bass extension, a powered bass section (built-in or as a separte subwoofer), or corner speaker placement.
Duke
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Indeed, back in the days of 2006, wide band had issues reproducing the lower hz's and also roll off on the highs. Now these rolloff issues have been addressed in some of the newer (starting in 2010!!!! just 4 years after your post) wide band designs. If the bass is still not enough, the solution is quite simple, by adding a Seas W22 Graphene /but for even more rock solid bass, add a Scan Speak $1k EACH monsta midwoofer. My hunch is the bass for my musical needs/classical, and near field listening/small room will be more than adequate from a single driver speaker. |
sean6,229 posts05-21-2006 10:25pmHigh sensitivity typically comes at the expense of wide bandwidth, power handling, convenient size, etc..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes back in your 2006 world, Horns were about best bet for high sens. Lowther/Fostex had designs that had issues in the fq range width. Horns gave superior band response, but as you say ata price. = $$$$$ and size/weight + not wife friendly, Horn set ups are ugly. Now starting,,i guess in 2010, 2 labs began designs in new higher tech wide band drivers. many of the issues inherent in the earlier concepts, Lowter/Fostex, have been address with stunning success. These Revolutionary designs still have not caught on. My guess is many audiophiles have rather large amplifiers for xover speakers and so are not capable to bring ina higher sensitivity speaker. But I have heard, only anecdotally that is, PP amplifiers **will** work *just fine** with the new wide band high sens speakers. I can not confirm this report. But considering this opinion came from a dealer in high sens wide band, gives some substance to his experience. And the good thing to those who own EL34 amplifers, You are the real winners here. The EL34 **might** just be the most perfect tube for these wide band drivers. Its your very lucky day. You win. I have too much money in upgardes for me to sell off my Defy7/KT88, besides my tech says impossible to get top $ for the Defy as corrosion is showing in places, So I'm stuck with KT88 in my near future plans to add a wide band speaker. |
clfcarney29 posts05-21-2006 6:55pmThe downside of high sensitivity speakers had been that there were so few models available which were of high quality and low coloration.Over the last 5 years or so that has changed greatly.As you may be aware,there is something of a renaissance underway in older audio reproduction technologies,vinyl e.g..High sensitivity speakers have benefitted and there is a growing pool of high quality offerings out there.In fact many would argue that in terms of the assault on ultimate audio reproduction,high sensitivity designs lead the way.Dynamics are the key to lifelike reproduction and dynamics is what high semsitivity/efficiency designs are all about.
In general,high sensitivity designs are going to sound more lively,engaging and alive than lowish ones with complex crossovers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO Only 29 posts, this guy is Top Dawg audiophile. clfcarney is posting these incredible insights in the future of things, right at the very initial pgase of the new high tech wide band designs. UNREAL. carney was on the cutting edge of what , he thought might take place in the near future,,but seems he was off by some 20 years. The move away from xovers has not really begun yet. Folks are still pondering what these things are, how they voice music, wide band still remains shrouded ina fog of mystery. Will remain this way another 10 years. Flat earthers take a while to come around. Wow, someone chisel Carney's post in stone, place it at Audiogon's opening page. Please. |
whart2,220 posts05-21-2006 6:00pmOne of the drawbacks of having an extremely sensitive speaker system, eg 103db @ 1metre, is that everything, and I mean, EVERYTHING, can be heard
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well most wide band are not over 100db sens. So its not really so much a issue. But in CM its a very good thing to have the higher sens of 91db+++. There are countless subtle passages of harps, flutes and even cello sections which get completely ignored from 90db> xover designs. Horns yes, go over 100db, but I'm not so interested in horns. |
plato1,543 posts05-21-2006 4:49pmThere are many factors that influence the final sound character of speakers, not just sensitivity ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sensitivity is the most important spec to consider and separates the xover design from the wide band design. 2 completely different voicings in the midrange section. Thus overall presentation, = soundstage in each are quite different. |
I'm new to world of audio, and still puzzling out a number of things. One question in particular that I have concerns speaker senstivity. It seems as though higher sensitivity is a positive, i.e. it allows one to use lower-power amplifiers, sound is more relaxed, generally more flexible with equipment. Yet there seem to be a large number of quality speakers with lowish sensitivity. Given that speaker design seems to be an exercise in compromise (short of the cost-is-no-object level), what qualities does one give up with higher-sensitivity (say, > 91db)? Conversely, what qualities does the speaker designer gain with a less sensitive design(86-87 db)? I've quickly learned that there are no absolutes when it comes to audio equipment, but any thoughts as to the trade-offs in general? Tks.john_adams_sunnyvale05-21-2006 1:44p~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2006!!!, Hey John Yep, you got it. Everything you wrote still 15 years !!!! later still remains a ~~puzzle~~~ and will remain a complete mystery for at least another decade to come. These very ,,seemingly,,simply truths about higher sens as superior design, just has not caught on yet, some 15 years after your OP. |
Thanks all for the great responses. In poking around on the internet, I came across the following which I thought was interesting:
http://www.trueaudio.com/st_trade.htm |
I think Sean covered the issue quite well.
In my opinion the single biggest downside to high efficiency is that you will need a bigger box to get the same bass extension. If you want the advantages of high efficiency (improved dynamic contrast, for instance) you either have to live with a bigger box, reduced bass extension, a powered bass section (built-in or as a separte subwoofer), or corner speaker placement.
Duke |
High sensitivity typically comes at the expense of wide bandwidth, power handling, convenient size, etc... So long as the other criteria can be met within reason i.e. speakers that will go low enough, don't go into dynamic compression rapidly and / or are of convenient size for your specific location of placement, the more sensitive the speaker, the better off you are. How the higher than average level of sensitivity is achieved may bring about other side effects that make things less desirable. Like anything else, do your homework BEFORE spending your money and / or audition as much gear as you can to form your own opinions. Just remember to compare apples to apples if you want to arrive at logical conclusions. Sean
> |
The transformation to lower sensitivity speakers was a result of high demand for more linear speakers that measured well. In general, (down boy!) sensitive speakers can be more dynamic. This is especially true if you are of the single ended, triode crowd. I agree with the comment that approaching a system with either an amp or a speaker in mind can dictate what the other needs to be to perform at its best. |
The downside of high sensitivity speakers had been that there were so few models available which were of high quality and low coloration.Over the last 5 years or so that has changed greatly.As you may be aware,there is something of a renaissance underway in older audio reproduction technologies,vinyl e.g..High sensitivity speakers have benefitted and there is a growing pool of high quality offerings out there.In fact many would argue that in terms of the assault on ultimate audio reproduction,high sensitivity designs lead the way.Dynamics are the key to lifelike reproduction and dynamics is what high semsitivity/efficiency designs are all about.
In general,high sensitivity designs are going to sound more lively,engaging and alive than lowish ones with complex crossovers. |
High sensitivity speakers sometimes bring out hum and hiss that would not be noticed with low sensitivity speakers. |
One of the drawbacks of having an extremely sensitive speaker system, eg 103db @ 1metre, is that everything, and I mean, EVERYTHING, can be heard- funky ground- big time sound through those horns, tube rush or other noise associated with electronics- welcome to a proctological exam of your system.
Wasn't the original rationale of the sealed box to give big bass in a small enclosure? And, that coincided with the intro of solid state electronics, which had the power to drive them?
I agree with Plato that the interaction between components ultimately means that you could own two absolutely great pieces of gear that really don't mate well. |
There are many factors that influence the final sound character of speakers, not just sensitivity. To choose a speaker based solely on this one parameter would be folly. That said, picking inefficient speakers limits your choice of amplifiers to higher-powered models.
There are a couple of approaches that work well. You can find speakers that will work well in your room and then find a suitable amp for those speakers. Or you can do the reverse, i.e., decide on an amplifier that you really like and then pick your speakers based on what will work with your amplifier.
Ideally, I'd want the amp/speaker combo to play comfortably without distortion or compression in my particular listening room environment. |
