The EAR 324 and **PB sound completely different from one another. The 324 is leaner and more detailed. The 88PB is richer with much stronger bass. |
I really have to place my ears next to the tweeter of my Thiel 3.7 to detect anything other than dead silence. That said, my First Sound preamp is as dead quiet as well.
To sidetrack a little, does the Ear 324 use a fuse in the unit? |
Hi Shoshis, assuming you're listening to MC mode in the "15 ohm" or "4 ohm" positions through a full-range system, then that sounds like you've probably got a quiet unit there, but I'll add that the hum, if you had any, wouldn't be most apparent through the tweeters -- that's primarily the random noisefloor, which is also quite low in my unit. The LF hum I have however can be very clearly detected, not only audibly, but by placing a fingertip on a woofer cone, where as a defined sinusoidal hum it feels very different from the lower random noisefloor shown in MM mode.
BTW, I noticed in Atkinson's comments in Stereophile he mentioned that he "did not find any interaction between the phono inputs". This doesn't seem to be the case with my unit however -- with a signal present at Input 1 and Input 2 unconnected, I can nevertheless hear the music faintly through the speakers when Input 2 is selected on the front panel. Conversely, when listening to Input 1 with MM mode selected at the rear panel, I can still hear some mild frequency response modification when changing SUT impedance taps at the front panel -- which correlates with the fact that the rotary-control switching transients can also still be heard, so clearly the SUTs aren't totally removed from the circuit by the rear-panel switch.
Also, when I turn my 324 off, after a slight delay I get a dying-quail high-frequency tone though the loudspeakers that lasts for a second or two, at a volume high enough that, if I don't mute or turn down my preamp first, would give me cause for concern for my tweeters. Anybody else notice this? |
Having own the 324 nearly a year now, I cannot detect any hum in my system unless of course if you place your eyes at the speaker tweeters. And it is hardly audible. It's even quieter than my Pass Xono.
I would love to try out the Einstein one day. |
The 324's MM facility would certainly seem to have more attention lavished on it than is usually the case with high priced MC-capable phonoamps. This leaves me the possibility of trying a good MM or MI cart, or using an outboard SUT -- disappointing as that may seem after purchasing the 324 with its onboard SUTs. (But if it sounds better...)
As far as characterizing the overall sound goes, given the inevitable big differences among partnering carts and turtable setups, other than saying that, hum aside, this is far and away the most accomplished phonostage I've personally owned (but that's not many), I'll just restrict my comments to the particular issue I'm having with it. Fortunately, my current medium-output MC cart normally works best at the lowest-gain "40 ohm" tap setting, where the hum isn't really a problem in practical terms. But it does rankle me not to be able to utilize the lower-impedance taps if I want without the hum increasing, and I'm reluctant to make archival recordings knowing the hum is there and audible during silences and between cuts if you crank it up.
I'm going to contact Dan Meinwald and see what he has to say, but if the problem does lie in the step-up transformers themselves, or their proximity to the 324's power supply, I don't imagine anything could really be done to fix this. Interestingly, I dug out the 2004 Art Dudley Stereophile review, and although the reviewer doesn't mention anything about hum, in his measurements section John Atkinson does mention a degree of 120Hz hum he couldn't eliminate by playing with the grounding. Furthermore, with the MC step-up taps at their lowest-gain "40 ohm" setting (the only one of the three MC-loading settings he reports on regarding noise), he measured about twice the drop-off in S/N ratio between A-weighted and unweighted figures for MC mode as he found in MM mode -- a differential (of around 6dB) I'm assuming has got to be mostly due to a corresponding increase of LF hum in MC mode, and that might well have worsened if he'd also taken S/N measurements at the "15 ohm" and "4 ohm" tap settings. |
I perceived the sound of the 324 as being taut throughout, but with some added noise and distortion. This tautness plus noise/distortion can also be present in live music that's neither played with good quality instruments nor in an uncontrolled acoustic environment.
I have a tendency (good or bad) of associating this kind of harmonic distortion to certain kind of music performances. I personally like the sound taut and clean, which is why I don't enjoy performances at bars or other places where the space was not originally conceived for playing music.
In the end, the 324 is enjoyable for certain time, but after a while in can be fatiguing (at least to my ears).
It is unfortunate that I never tried the MM section of the 324 since it seems to be the better designed half of this unit. I even purchased the Nagaoka MP-50, but I sold the 324 before trying this cart with it.
|
>>>I used to have the EAR 324. I would not say that the 324 is very quiet. It is somehow quiet, but it is not very quiet. When the 324 was in my system, I could hear some hum if I turned the volume all they way up, without music of course. There was no hum with the volume dial set to normal listening levels, but I didn't feel comfortable with it. <<<
>>>The 324 does not sound rolled off at the frequency extremes to me or anything like that, but unsurprisingly it does sound most transparent and neutral when used in MM mode, skipping the step-up transformers...<<<
Isanchez & Zaikesman, thanks for sharing. My experience with 324 was consistent with your above comments.
Best regards
Dan |
Hi Isanchez, thanks for your input. Your experience with hum sounds similar to mine.
I think this finding of hum could be somewhat system-dependent. Not that the 324 only has hum in certain systems (although it's possible that certain 324's have more noticeable hum than others, and cartridge output level will definitely play a part in what is heard at typical listening volumes). But I suspect that perhaps the hum can be more noticeable in higher-powered, multi-way, full-range system contexts than it might in some lower-powered systems using smaller 2-ways or single-driver speakers (dynamic or electrostatic). At least this is what I took from trying my 324 in my single-driver bedroom system: the hum didn't disappear -- in fact I doubt it even diminished. But it became much less noticeable, both because that system isn't as highly resolving or extended at the frequency extremes, and can't be played anywhere near as loud.
About your impression that the 324 adds some benign distortion, I haven't heard this as such. I do find that using the output transformer gain-attenuation switch set to -6dB or -12dB can usefully tweak the harmonic flavor, in the fatness vs. tautness of the bass, tonality of the mids and sharpness of the treble, dependent on choice of cart, which step-up tap is selected, and in combination with the partnering preamp. Noticing this made me wonder that the output transformer ratio setting could likely have an effect on output impedance (and possibly even somewhat on the reflected MC input impedance?).
I haven't heard the Einstein, but I suppose your take that the 324 sounds more like legacy tube gear could have something to do with the amount of coils and iron used in the 324: input and output transformers, with inductors in both the power supply and the amplifier circuit. The 324 does not sound rolled off at the frequency extremes to me or anything like that, but unsurprisingly it does sound most transparent and neutral when used in MM mode, skipping the step-up transformers, though not as forceful or dynamic with my medium-output MC cart. |
I used to have the EAR 324. I would not say that the 324 is very quiet. It is somehow quiet, but it is not very quiet. When the 324 was in my system, I could hear some hum if I turned the volume all they way up, without music of course. There was no hum with the volume dial set to normal listening levels, but I didn't feel comfortable with it. I do not hear anything with the volume all the way up from either the Benchmark DAC or the Einstein phono preamp.
The 324 seems to add some distortion, which is easily perceived from the mid-range and up. This distortion helps the bass notes have some more texture though. I think the 324 kind of distortion is what helps this unit to sound real, so it should not be read as negative.
I would certainly not call the 324 sound "tube-like", unless we're talking about 1990's tube units. IMO, today's tube units neither sound like tubes or solid state, they just sound right and free of distortion. Of course, what sounds right to me be not sound like that to others.
Having said that, I'm very happy with the Einstein phono preamp. In my system, it is definitively dead quiet with more dynamic contrast than the 324. It does take quite a while for the Einstein the break in, but once it does it totally gets out of the say to the point you no longer think there is phono preamp in the chain.
I would also add that the 324 would be more system-dependent than the Einstein because of its unique sonic signature.
|
i did have the opportunity to listen to the 324s with and without a SUT.I cant hear any hum. Its one of the very quiet phono stage i have heard.
There might be some other problem lying around in the chain. |
Hi all, I recently acquired an EAR 324 myself, and think it sounds very fine, musically speaking. (My previous phonostage was a PSA GCPH -- obviously not in the same league price-wise, but I insist on mono and polarity switches in addition to externally adjustable loading and balanced output, so my choices are extremely limited.)
However, there is a disappointing level of hum when in MC mode (i.e., when the internal step-up transformers are engaged). It's not bothersome at the lowest-gain "40 ohm" transformer ratio, or at moderate listening volumes in general. But at the "15 ohm" and "4 ohm" high-gain settings, although it never interferes with the music, at higher listening volumes it does interfere with the silences.
This is a problem I've never had with my previous phonostages, or with the outboard Bob's CineMag SUT that I auditioned for a while with the GCPH. The hum vanishes when the 324 is in MM mode, with preamp volume increased to compensate for the lower gain. So I'm thinking the hum may be inherent to the 324's internal SUTs. I've tried many combinations of cords and cables, power conditioning or not, ground lift, different cartridges, sources other than my regular turntable, even installed it in my bedroom system as a double check (where it was less audible, due to its not being a full-range system), but can't make the hum drop to an acceptable residual level unless I insert shorting plugs into the MC inputs -- obviously not representative of normal operating conditions.
Any comments or questions would be welcome... |
DAN,
If budget allows, that is a very ideal approach. that way you got the situation covered as the vinyl presses of past and present are very different and different carts reacts differently to each different pressings.
Cool set-up! |
Nolitan, actually I agree with you. OK, to make it clear...I have three separate TT/arm setups and any three of my carts ready to play at all time.
Shelter 901 & Denon DL-103SA is mainly responsible for records with poorer surface conditions. (Both are sturdy and stable on old-worn records)
ZYX Omega-S mainly for less ideal recordings or whenever I want a bit smoothness and sweetness. And it's a little bit forgiving for poor recordings.
MY Sonic Lab Ultra Eminent mainly for the best recordings with the best surface conditions. If "set up & step up properly"(it seems not that easy for all inmates, though), the cart & phono combo is just the most "musically authentic" one(comparing to live performance, of course) I have ever heard. IMHO, MY Sonic Lab (including its OEM products for Air Tight)deserves vinylists' serious attention!
This's how I achieve what I want the presentations. Again it's a different approach...;)
Dan |
Dan
I understand your situation & I've come across with audiophiles and among friends with similar systems like yours.
And its enjoyable & to their lacking- to each his own.
Personally I would prefer a slightly more forgiving system -allowing one to play not so good LP pressing to very good audiophile type pressings...
Again- this hobby is so changing and evolving...
Thanks !! |
Thanks for sharing, Nolitan.
In my system, I do prefer the two transducers(cart and speakers)play the major role in establishing the so-called sonic signature(that's why I may keep buying more carts to "refresh" my system). In this case, turntable, tonearm &, hopefully, phono amp have to be as neutral & revealing as possible.
That's why I am confident when we optimize our LP setup, the carts I gave comment upon will perform very close to my descriptions.
I have my bottom line for so-called "neutrality and revealing"(if there are any actually), that is, at least 70% of my favorite records have to sound ënjoyable, musical, full of emotions and authentic.
Each of us may have his different approach. To me, the audio bug grown by top-end carts always bite me harder...
Dan |
Thanks Dan- I dont think i would like my phono stage to be really revealing as what you have described.
It becomes too x-ray vision defecting the flaws of the recordings & one system flaws.
Thanks again though! |
Those NOS Ei(A-frame) were no longer produced. Tim didn't tell me where to source them. Look for Amperex Philips PCC88 (A-frame) you may find they looks very similar.
Q: In what ways does the tele better the stock tubes even just the two front tubes ?
A: I am now using Telefunken in V1, V2 & V4, Siemens in V3. Everything becomes more precise. Good recordings become more authentic. Poor recordings are still full of recording defects. Accuracy in VTF, VTA/SRA, alignment become more significant. Differences between carts becomes more apparent. More important, I feel like sitting in a concert hall when playing some really good stereo recordings(mostly from 60's & 70's).
VBR
Dan |
Dan
i see, so NOS Ei... any ideas other than Tim were to source them ?
Yes, they sound pretty good actually.
In what ways does the tele better the stock tubes even just the two front tubes ?
Thanks |
Nolitan
I was told by Tim those are NOS Ei (A-frame)using Philips Holland technology. Without comparison to Telefunken/Siemens, yes they sound quite good already.
Q: V1 & V2 seems like those have to be matched. How about V3 and V4 ?
They run in constant current source circuitry in which left & right channels pass thru each tube simultaneously from V1, V2, V3 then V4(the last one).
Brand may vary in the way we want. I usually put the best matched Telefunken in V1 & V2 (the first two positions) and mix with one Siemens/Philips/Ei in either V3 or V4 to fine-tune the sound I want.
VBR
Dan |
Dan
Thanks for reply. Are the stock tubes of the 88pb EI ?
I feel they sound quite good already.
On the positioning, V1 & V2 seems like those have to be matched. How about V3 and V4 ?
Thanks again. |
Nolitan, here's they are:
V1, V2 & V4: NOS Telefunken PCC88 <> bottoms
V3: NOS Siemens PCC88 (branded Telefunken)
I handpicked from my collections and matched them closely by myself. The sonic improvements over stock tubes are stunningly great! |
Hello again Dan,
What tubes (combo) are you using with your 88PB ?
Does all 4 tubes have to be the same brand ?
Would be interested what tube combo you find "best" with the 88pb.
Thanks. |
That's OK, Dan. I take your point. Mine are Sound Lab M1s, but I love Quads, too. |
Typo: ...OTL ampa and ESL speakers(Not Quad ESL). |
"Grainy" is always a sign of poor synergy which represents somehow something wrong in the system. This could be too much transistors in the chain, or a wrong choice of speakers and cables, etc.
With OTL amps and Quad ESL, I truly believe 324 should deliver a bit more transparent, extended presentation than a Linn Linto.
To lower the risk(i.e. uncertainty), Lewm may buy a used one.
VBR
Dan |
I just wonder why it would sound "grainy" at all. Of course, that word may mean different things to each one of us, but it seems to me that transistor audio has evolved beyond the point where it should ever sound grainy. And I am a confirmed tube-aholic, nevertheless, for other reasons. |
Compared to tube phono stages, yes the 324 did sound a tad grainy if you really listen to it carefully.
However if possibly fed thru an all tube system, i don't think you can hear it. Nonetheless i did appreciate the flexibility of its inputs (i wish more manufacturers) would adapt those kind of settings. Makes life easier if you have multiple cartridges. |
Good points, Dan. Kessler did reveal the identity of his comparator phono stage, but I cannot now recall what that was. Possibly the Linn Linto. Also, Nolitan appeared to agree that the 324 could sound grainy. I use OTL tube amps and ESL speakers, probably a good match for the 324, which would feed into the linestage section of my Atma-sphere MP1 preamp, in balanced mode. |
Nolitan,
I have MY Sonic Lab Stage 302(for 1-6 ohm) and Phase Tech T-3(for Shelter 901, it's cheapy miracle match!)
VBR
Dan |
Lewm, we should investigate what other gears and the characteristics of the listening room in which Ken Kessler auditioned for that particular review. Do you have any ideas as I couldn't find anything of it yet? Art Dudley seemed to have used one MM (Linn Adikt) without much implications on audible distortions, right?
IMHO, if 324 is mated with EAR tube amp, Audio Note pre amp, or some Class A solid state(e.g. Pass Lab XA series) power amp, its solid state personality won't be any problem at all. This may not be true if it is hooked up with VTL TL-7.5(tube), Siegfried(tube) and Rockport(ring radiator tweetors)...
To me, 324 sounds like a solid state as it really is, but it's NOT thin sounding nor harsh. But be cautious when someone uses certain ceramic or metallic speakers or maybe some high efficient horn speakers in a very "lively & spacious" listening room.
All in all, it was a versatile solid state phono amp which "still" justifies its price tag, and targeted for MM/MI die-hard fans who seem to have no other choices within the same price range.
Best regards
Dan |
Thanks, guys, for your thoughtful responses. I guess another one bites the dust, since I was interested in the 324 only for the purpose of running it with MM and MI cartridges and was salivating at all those front panel choice of capacitance and load resistance. It is very odd to read that a device that uses BOTH input and output transformer coupling could possibly sound "grainy". I would have thought that the output transformer, in particular, would ameliorate any transistor-like coloration. (At least in my mind, "grainy" = transistor.) Plus, I would have thought that TdP was incapable of designing anything that sounded grainy. Because of my particular MM and MI wants, the 88PB would not be a good choice, either. |
Thanks Dan,
Nice carts!
which external SUT are you using ? |
The synergy is so ideal with 88PB in the combo, always offers the magic of tubes and neutrality, stability of hybrid design using JET, PCC88s and output transformers.
With Ultra Eminent, the presentations being so dynamic, transparent, full of natural decays with authentic transient speed(provided playing the best analogue recordings from 60's and 70's). Poor recordings are still poor, though.(mainly using 1-6 ohm ext. SUT)
With Omega-S, being smooth, lush sounding, so energetic, full of body & emotions with a tad midrange sweetness. (using 1-6 ohm ext. SUT and 4-ohm built-in SUT in EAR 88PB)
With Shelter 901, a bit in lack of the details and natural decays comparing to Ultra Eminent and Omega-S. But the overall tonal balance still regarded as "very good". $1,200 is a steal(using 20-ohm ext. SUT)
With Denon DL-103SA, in comparisons, in lack of micro-dynamics and details, bit unnatural vocal siblings, "relatively" inferior in high/low extensions, exciting mid-low punch. But still regarded as one of the best MC carts, within $500, with excellent trackability and being so sturdy and stable on old-worn records. (using 40-ohm built-in SUT within EAR 88PB)
88PB has done its job well by always revealing the subtle sonic differences the carts and unleashing their potentials. The best phono within $5,000 I heard in my system and may compare to much pricey phono products.
VBR
Dan
|
DanKW,
Thanks.. So far, all of them works well with the 88PB ?
Another phono stage that someone recommended is the K&K Maxx out phono stage... Its a kit though. |
Mostly using MY Sonic Lab Ultra Eminent, ZYX Omega-S, Shelter 901, Denon DL-103SA & Shelter 201(MM).
VBR
Dan |
i heard the 324 at my AD and did find it a bit grainy compared to tube phono stages.
88pb is next on the list.
Dan, so far, what carts have you used w/ the 88pb ?
thanks |
Lewm, after reading your post, I browsed for Art Dudley's...
As mentioned in previous posts, I also experienced some hum problem with the 324 that I couldn't possibly get rid of during audition. The hum and overall noise level was NOT really annoying when listening. But it seems to coincide with AD's measurements of hum at 120Hz.
Unfortunately I didn't try a wide variety of MM/MI to prove if AD's concerns on higher THD at low frequency was valid. "Grainy" wasn't enough to describe the 324 I auditioned in my system. "Definitely a solid state" were.
88PB didn't have this hum problem at all. In fact, it is still being extremely stable and, up to this moment, among the quietest tube phono(actually a hybrid design) I have heard in respect of hum level, tube rush and background noise for any phono with more than 70dB of gain, though without much flexibility in capacitance choices and impedance loadings like 324.
In a nutshell, I prefer 88PB to 324 in my system.
Best regards
Dan |
I came across this thread because I have been interested in the EAR 324 for use with a myriad of vintage MM and MI cartridges that I want to audition. The front panel controls for capacitance and resistive loading would be very useful in that regard. In reviewing published reviews of the 324, I came across two "disturbing" comments: (1) John Atkinson measured rather poor overload characteristics for the inputs at frequencies below 100Hz (distortion went sky high at inputs above 5mV, which would easily be reached by any MM cartridge), and he suggested that an MM cartridge might well overload the stage and induce such distortion, and (2) after praising his demo unit, Ken Kessler let it drop at the end of his review that he thought the 324 was a tad "grainy". Have any of you guys experienced either phenomenon, or do you know whether or how TdP addressed the overload "problem"? Thanks.
By the way, a 7DJ8 is naught but a 6DJ8/6922 with a different filament voltage requirement (7V instead of 6V), as far as I know. |
i agree dan-i think it boils down to synergy |
You are welcome. But remember my opinion is just another opinion. There are a lot of decent phono amps on the market. As long as you understand their strengths and weaknesses, sonic signatures or compatibilities(no matter how you call it), I believe you will soon get what you are looking for.
Good luck
Dan |
Dan
Many thanks for the post. I think you answered most of my concern. Its really now a matter of going w/ either the tube or solid state counterpart of the EAR. |
Opus88: Yes, the user's manual is in lack of some useful information usually provided by other manufacturers.
Nolitan: the internal SUT proves to be a decent one. I used it for MY Sonic Lab Ultra Eminent BC, ZYX Omega-S Low, Shelter 901, Denon DL-103SA,etc, with rather satisfactory results. Comparing to other exotic SUTs (may cost more or less another 88PB now!!)and to be very very picky, the internal SUTs in 324/88PB is marginally weaker in bandwidth, detail retrieval, micro-dynamics, soundstaging...but, pls remember, it's NOT fair to compare this way. EAR's internal SUTs "usually" delivers a tad of transformer's warmth, a bit more body of instruments, particularly suitable for LOMC carts which sound just a little bit cool or thin, IMHO.
Shsohis: Agree. 324 is definitely a solid state phono, revealing but never analytical and harsh in the systems I heard. I believe Lyra Helikon with 324 should be a very happy marriage;)
VBR
Dan |
To me, the 324 is very revealing and never sounds analytical. I've yet to discover any tube bloom. The spatial distribution of notes is incredible - Music is never messy or compressed together. Compared to my previous Pass Xono, the 324 thrashes it left right center making the Xono sounds amateurish and unrefined. By the way, the 324 is far more queiter. My current cart is the Lyra Helikon SL. |
I understand both the 88pb and 324 has international step up for use of low output mc carts.
Has anyone compared the internal step up of these two units with an external step up transformer available ?
Is the external better or worst than the internal step up ?
THis is getting interesting thread. |
An entertaining interview to say the least. He doesn't mince words, does he? An interesting point too about FETs having the same measurement curve as 12ax7 tubes. Does he feel FETs sound similar to the 12ax7s? I'd like to mention something about his manual for the 88pb. Beyond simply stating the unit has phono one and phono two buttons on the front panel, there is no explanation that while phono one allows for moving magnet and low output moving coil performance, phono two provides settings for only moving magnet output(52db or so)or perhaps moving magnet and high output moving coil. An owner may eventually come to realize this, but these things should be explained in the owner's manual. I've already mentioned this to Dan Meinwald and Mitch Singerman, but the people at EAR/Yoshino need to generate a printed revision. |
Opus88, it's already been posted in Tubes Asylum...
VBR
Dan |
Dan, I had already checked your threads. I'll wait for your post to appear in Audio Asylum. Thanks. |
Opus88: you may search threads under my account(Danwkw). But I found the post has been edited by someone...I gonna post another one in AA under the topic of tubes.
Dan |
Nolitan: In response to your question about other phono stages in comparison with the EAR 88pb, check out my experiences in the Amps Preamps forum thread titled "EAR Preamp" by Gabeharty, dated 03/27/08. I should add that I preferred and stayed with the sound of my trusty VPI HW19 Mk.3 'table with SME IV.Vi tonearm and specially made brass/aluminum armboard. Cartridge is the Dynavector XV-1S. My current cables of choice are the Purist Proteus Provectus tonearm cable(the most recent revised incarnation that preceded the current Praesto version), the Silkworm+ interconnect with copper Eichmann bullet plugs and the JPS Superconductor 3 speaker cable. I still use and enjoy the Wegrzyn Copper Slam power cord for my 88pb. My Air Tight ATM-3 monoblock amps have long been wired with the original Synergistic Research Master Coupler power cords. |
Okay Dan, thanks very much for clarifying, and your comment on shortened life for E88CC/6922s in the 7DJ8 sockets makes sense. Based on listening, I also determined in short order that I didn't much care for the sound of 6922/6DJ8/E88CC tubes compared with the 7DJ8s...Mention of Tim's using 6922s in the 88pb is found in an Audiogon thread by Tompoodie titled "6922 6DJ8 or 12ax7 tubes better for preamp?" dated 05/31/10. He indicates this in his opening statements. Of course, there could be a question regarding its veracity, so you might want to e-mail him on this...After you first commented on the "Interview with Tim..." prior to my remarks, I seached for that article but could not find it. You just indicated however that it will be available in an upcoming post. Will this appear in this analog forum as well? Thanks for the info. |
