Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
Actually I had some fast cables. Kimber KGAC silver. How did I know they were faster than my copper Tara's? An example is the beginning of "Hey You" by BTO. It starts out fast. With the silver cables I found myself startled with a jolt even though I knew it was coming. With the copper cables I didn't get that physiological response. I did that many times over the years. End result was the same. |
"Another prominent cable designer believes..."Prominent cable designer gets three points for admitting to believe rather than claiming. Instead of burn-in, cable risers, and all other ideas, why someone would not make cables with the principle of Schwann cells? That seems like a very logical next step. Hop-hop and there is a new dimension of "fast" in audio. My cable is faster than yours. Come on, manufacturers who are quietly monitoring these threads to see what could be sold, try that. Nobody would be able to argue it is crap. It has worked for thousands and thousands and thousands of years and has been produced in countless billions. Now, just to figure out how to make it and that is all. What you are doing now is a copper-age joke. |
blueranger, I already am a believer. I believe that you experienced everything you mentioned. I keep mind open about cables but do have some doubts. Thankfully, it is not much of my obsession so I can enjoy reading about both views without getting agitated. Some claims earlier in the thread do not defy current physics, that one may still be in diapers. There are claims that defy logic on a very basic level. If someone at Cardas, or whatever other manufacturer, said "it is that way and we have no clue why, but it sounds that way", less people would argue about it. Unfortunately, companies try to come up with explanations to impress potential buyers and those explanations are at times laughable. Once rooms start getting relaxed and cables traumatized in whatever way, credibility goes out the window. |
blueranger: "Science in its infancy cannot measure the differences that many people can hear. Infancy woah? Yep some think we know all there is to know about sound. A hundred years from now our grandchildren will look back at us and see how far they have come." The human brain is the most complex machine ever imagined or realized. It is totally responsible for ALL of the above. And, yes, there is an unknown science to the human brain/mind/perception that is still uncharacterized. And yes, the process of belief is poweful enough to account for cable burn in, as well as start global conflicts, as it has since time began for H. sapiens. |
geoffkait - Obviously you can't or didn't read, listen or interpret the information I provided. It more than covers this so called "burn in" issue. It's real empirical data from real engineers, not unsubstantiated jibber jabber. Even the article you provided as Breaking News! -from Galen Carol Audio is specifically addressed in the material I sent you - which you would know if you actually went through it. Not only is there a raft of empirical data but also, properly conducted listening tests. The only references you can provide are from cable manufacturers who've conveniently omitted any empirical data much less truth. Why would they say otherwise? Their very existence depends on the suckers who believe that crud. Burn in is debunked! There is zero proof that it has any basis in reality. It seems Mark Twain's quote is correct, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” It seems you and blueranger are having a good deal of fun in feeding your bs unsupported opinions, completely unhelpful to those who want to know the facts and the truth. If you're just here to crank up the rhetoric merely for the fun of it, I find that wholly disappointing. It lowers us all who are serious about the hobby. And now, back to the same ripe tomato.. |
This thread is a great read! I must say I thought bs on expensive cable until I actually borrowed some and tried a/b for about 15 tests. Well damn if I did hear a difference, very subtle in the bass. Had a Russian friend come over who classically studied and played, yep he could hear a difference in bass too. I did not want them but ended up buying them. |
Breaking News! This just in from Galen Carol Audio. “Cables: Most all cable manufacturers agree that break-in is a result of changes in the conductor and/or dielectric. According to one manufacturer: "The insulation (or dielectric) will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (i.e. when music is playing). This energy-absorption causes the dielectric’s molecules to re-arrange themselves from a random order into a uniform order. When the molecules have been rearranged, the dielectric will absorb less energy & consequently cause less distortion." Cardas has, for years, included a Cable Break-in Guide with their cables. In it they state: "All cables need a break-in and warm-up period. Better cables require longer break-in. With all cables, the more you play them and the less you move them, the better they will sound." The unique geometry of Cardas cables require that "...the strands be of equal tension... Current flowing through the cable during break-in, and each warm-up period, will relax the structure of the strands." Another prominent cable designer believes that during the break-in process electrons are establishing new micro pathways through the conductor material. changes in the conductor is the primary reason for the improvement realized through break-in. They believe that most of the signal travels across the surface of the conductor. Viewed under a microscope the surface that appears smooth to the naked eye is really a series of peaks and valleys. The irregular surface forces electrons along a circuitous path to their destination. When a cable is bent or twisted, new tears and fissures form, disrupting existing pathways and requiring new ones to be formed. This explanation lends credence to reports that cables need to be re-conditioned (after) being handled. I’ve seen this in a very real way.” |
Be sure to check out all the references and source material on this one. This is far and away the most comprehensive examination (with tests) of the subject in the modern age. Who is Roger Russell? Author,
Artist, Engineer, Inventor, Photographer, Collector, and formerly Director of Acoustic Research at McIntosh Laboratory, Inc. and the originator of McIntosh Loudspeakers. The Mark Twain quote at the beginning is a bit telling and very true. The "Logical Conclusions" are "illuminating". I know most of you are going to skip all that sciency engineer stuff and scroll down there anyway. http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm This next one is very simplified for those who don't care to delve into measurements and scientific data, explanations. https://www.machinedesign.com/blog/5-myths-about-speaker-wire Here's one with YouTube videos so you can avoid the reading altogether. https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects I have not included articles, promotions, opinions from those connected to the wire, cable, interconnect industry, including articles from equipment or review magazines who's advertisers include same. If you do go through what is here, you'll be busy for a while. Again, a quick google will reveal unlimited data provided you're willing to discount non-scientific, self-promotional material provided by those with a financial stake in the industry. Now, please feel free to provide the empirical scientific data by an engineer which not only proves a measurable difference but a factual, objective audible one, which, by the way, can be measured with actual equipment so we don't need to rely on anyone's ears. I'll sign off with a recent observation by New Scientist Magazine at the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that "among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables: "Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..." - New Scientist Magazine" I'm outta here! |
no2headphones As to the opposing view on the mysterious and magical process of speaker wire burn-in, no such data exists and the idea has been debunked countless times. One doesn’t have to look hard at all to find the proof of this. >>>>Interesting. Can you provide the proof that burn-in doesn’t exist? Share, share! |
Thanks maritime51. This is way beyond ridiculous. Citing an article by a high end cable supplier with zero scientific data or support as some sort of proof of change in the properties of a wire to carry a given signal?? Electromigration? The following is from AMI/IDC "Electromigration is an electrochemical process where metal on an insulating material, in a humid environment and under an applied electric field, leaves its initial location in ionic form and redeposits somewhere else. Such migration may reduce isolation gaps and ultimately lead to an electrical short circuit. The process begins when a thin continuous film of water has been formed and a potential is applied between oppositely charged electrodes. Positive metal ions are formed at the positively biased electrode1 (the anode), and migrate toward the negatively charged cathode. Over time, these ions accumulate as metallic dendrites, reducing the spacing between the electrodes, and eventually creating a metal bridge. 1. Electromigration is closely related to corrosion, with the anode being attacked, but which circuit element is the anode is determined by the applied field rather than the oxidation potential of the metal used. Whilst most often seen as a surface effect, vertical migration can also occur when moisture has penetrated into the bulk of a porous material." This article goes on at some length and it has absolutely nothing to do with speaker wire or the signals it's required to carry. I'd need several hard drives to contain all the empirical scientific data available on this topic. As to the opposing view on the mysterious and magical process of speaker wire burn-in, no such data exists and the idea has been debunked countless times. One doesn't have to look hard at all to find the proof of this. "Relaxed" cables - give me a break! I believe I heard a rumour of a new speaker cable made of silver coated graphene with gold plated contacts. It's wound with a single copper strand and coated in a special oxygenated dielectric coating to prevent all forms of interference. It's cryogenically frozen and has a "special" electrical signal passed through it after it thaws out which "pre-burns" the cable eliminating the time and hassle of burning it in at home. It's $1,000 a foot and the company recommends replacing it every 5 years after its prime performance declines. No, there's no such thing - yet. As one can see from this thread, there is clearly a market for it though. Believers rejoice! Leaving this thread before I start with the blonde jokes, gremlins, ghosts in the machine, wire fairies and yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. Should've taken that left at Albuquerque. |
It is getting emotional indeed... Who writes these things? Even worse, who reads that? I guess, me. Yes, thanks geoffkait. You proved I am a dummy. |
I knew my piano tuner has been robbing me. He is always tightening strings and telling me they got loose over time. How on Earth do you relax a room? |
blueranger, "They settled down later." Wouldn’t that mean that burn-in is not a permanent effect? Does the burn-in have to be repeated after, let’s say, a few weeks of vacation? It would be exactly the opposite from... "Have you heard the term electromigration? A current causes permanent changes in a wire" Is there a third part that is missing between above two sentences? |
This just in! Cardas explains cable break in. You’re welcome in advance. http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php |
@blueranger
So an electrical signal has no effect what so ever on a copper wire?The more pertinent questions are whether the effect of an electrical signal can cause physical changes to the wire over time (i.e., during the "burn-in" period) and whether any lasting or temporary effects/changes can be measured or heard as a sonic difference between the sound pre and post burn-in. The problem with these threads is that some here report hearing differences and others don't but neither camp has any level of "proof" that is sufficient to satisfy the other, hence the infinite loop argument. |
How come that every tweak is positive? Is it possible that something actually influences the sound in a non-favorable way? Is burn-in of the cables always something that should be positive, or does it have a negative impact on the sound, too? It might have not been said explicitly, but all the reviews mentioning it are glowing. It is always for better. What are the chances? |
mitch2 Geoff, “You know this how?” Know which? 1. Burn in is experienced by many people. as reported by @blueranger or 2. Expectancy effect is experienced by many people. >>>>Both. Which of those statements is more likely to have come from a psychic? >>>>Both. Can you be sure I have not been texting with the 80,000 you claim to "hear it"? >>>>I’m an audio insider and you’re not. |
Geoff, You know this how?Know which? 1. Burn in is experienced by many people. as reported by @blueranger or 2. Expectancy effect is experienced by many people. Which of those statements is more likely to have come from a psychic? Can you be sure I have not been texting with the 80,000 you claim to "hear it"? |
"We have barely scratched the surface of physics." We are all, me included, taught that there is more out there, but what this is all that there is? There is no guarantee that more explanations for many things are coming our way. Is there a time limit when we may say "we have waited enough, there is actually nothing beyond this"? Having said that, for the time being, we should try to find more. |
What?? There is tons of empirical scientific data on this topic, all over the world, over many, many years. It's long settled - basic - physics. Do certain audiophiles have some innate pseudo-scientific knowledge that only their finely honed hearing can determine? Signal purity, strength, degradation is easily measured and demonstrable. These are well established, scientific FACTS. We're not talking about the nature of the universe or time travel. The industry absolutely loves the idea that some people are sold on the idea that they need to spend $200 a foot to get a better quality signal to their speakers. The finest, most expensive speakers in the world still contain simple 14 or 16 gauge internal wiring. Do you really believe that companies who manufacture $30,000, $50,000, $100,000 speakers have just been missing the opportunity to improve the sound of their product by simply improving the quality of the few feet of wiring inside their own products? A forum like this should be a place to provide the community with helpful and correct information so people can spend their hard earned money in places that will truly enhance their listening experience and feed their thirsty ears. -not support an industry that has gotten fat, dumb, happy and very rich because they can sell a phony bill of goods to a certain percentage of the population. We should be putting an end to this nonsense and not perpetuating these myths. |
