I mainly listen to classical and jazz - mostly trumpets and violins, with the occasional piano, viola or bass guitar. A couple of my friends have been suggesting to me that my ensemble lacks bass and having a subwoofer will address it. My setup includes a 2 ch. NAD C365BEE integrated amp, Wharfdale EVO 50 loudspeakers (pair), and an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray player as a CD player. The setup is in the living room, with three walls, and the fourth side open to the dining room. The living room itself would have been 18' L X 12' W X 18' H = 3888 cu. ft, but the fact that it opens up to the dining room makes the entire space more like 40' L X 18' W X 12' = 8540 cu. ft. Would I benefit from a subwoofer and which one should I get? Budget $1000 or close to that.
"11-30-14: Bob_reynolds ZD, In the real world, you're far more likely to get a speaker to distort by under powering it. You may be confusing the fact that you are more likely to damage a speaker by driving it with an under powered amp since you can drive the amp into clipping more easily. I assure you the driver will distort less at 65dB versus 80dB."
I'm not confusing either. That's why I put this in my last post.
"(Unless, of course, you're foolish enough to push the system so hard, it starts to break up. After reading the OP's comments, I really don't think that will be a factor here.)"
I think its a given that if you turn your system up really loud, it will probably distort at some point. Also, you are doing some guessing.
"Unfortunately, they don't quote an SPL level and distance, but it's likely 85 dB at 1 meter. This tells me that, as is typically the case, too much of the budget went into the cabinet and not the drivers to meet the price point. The distortion could double by 150 Hz and double again by 75 Hz and again by 30 Hz. You will be better off taking the bass load off of these speakers."
That, and the 2 other references are general and not about the OP's equipment. And that's really where your argument fails. Look at this, as well.
"Distortion created by a driver increases with level; just consider the heat. This is common sense, it certainly isn't silly and I'm not guessing. Distortion also increases as frequency decreases. Again, I'm not guessing; it's a fact. In fact, you're much more likely to have a distortion problem with the sub, as opposed to the main speakers. Now, that's just silly. You can't seriously believe that a 6.5" driver is going to distort less than a 12" driver when asked to reproduce a 40 Hz signal at 85dB.
That's exactly the problem with driving the majority of speakers full range (they are not designed for it). Speakers using crossovers use high pass filters on their tweeters and on their mid range drivers (if it's a 3-way design). It only makes sense to high pass the woofer when adding a subwoofer (effectively creating a 4-way design)."
In all this, you're missing the most important issues. Quality of the components going into the speakers, the design of the speakers, and the build quality and power rating of the amp. So going back to your example of using a 6.5" driver for a sub over a 12" driver as being silly, may not be the case. If you take a high quality 6.5" driver and put it into a well designed enclosure and power it with a very powerful, high quality amp, there's no reason why it can't outperform a lesser 12" driver with a low quality, low power amp. Not too many people use 6.5" drivers in subs, but there are many examples of 8" designs on the market that easily outperform 12" and 15" subs.
presume you have no ability to try the Hsu at home. you might wish to call Hsu and ask for their advice...specifically the size of your room and basic system components.
As for the amp, i can only suggest you try one at home. Typically i find that the bass becomes more 'solid', defined with greater punch...what i have NOT found is that it goes dramatically deeper or surrounds me in waves of propulsive bass...but for some people, this solidity, definition and punch are what they are looking for. good luck.
"11-30-14: Bob_reynolds Since music is the priority, a sealed cabinet would more likely be a better choice. And there is no reason to get a power amp. You do not want to drive your main speakers more -- this only creates more distortion."
No offence, but that's silly. There's more to audio than reading a spec sheet. And in this case, you're guessing in order to fill in the blanks. In the real world, you're far more likely to get a speaker to distort by under powering it. The OP has a big room and his current amp, while of good quality, is not all that powerful. If a speaker has to be driven harder than normal because the room is big, its far safer to do it with a more powerful amp. You'll get less distortion, not more. (Unless, of course, you're foolish enough to push the system so hard, it starts to break up. After reading the OP's comments, I really don't think that will be a factor here.)
Take into consideration also, that driving the OP's current speakers to their potential, will make it much easier to integrate a sub. The integration works both ways. Just as you can push an amp and speakers into distortion, the same can happen with a subwoofer and the amp that powers it. In fact, you're much more likely to have a distortion problem with the sub, as opposed to the main speakers.
"However, I am leaning towards taking a risk with the Hsu VTF 15H. Not sure if this is the right thing to do. Any help is welcome."
Don't get them both at the same time. Do the amp first, as it may have an effect on what sub you choose. Also, you may find that you don't need a sub with the added power.
Lloyd, you mentioned about having setup options. The Hsu VTF 15H offers more options with regard to fine-tuning, according to what I understood from the web site. I am somehow leaning towards this model from a power and flexibility standpoint but also feel that I will be taking a risk with this model. The reason it is a risk is that this model is beind sold at a discount and there is no return policy on it. I feel that the SVS SB 2000 is the safest bet because of their return policies. However, I am leaning towards taking a risk with the Hsu VTF 15H. Not sure if this is the right thing to do. Any help is welcome.
I apologize for not mentioning in the last comment that Bob Reynolds is already recommending the SVS SB2000 over the Hsus for my system. Any other comments specifically towards these three models are welcome.
Thank you all for your comments, all of which are very helpful. I will definitely try adding a separate amp down the line and using the NAD I have as a preamp - I'm glad that is possible. Lloyd, I will take you up on raising the sub - that sounds like an interesting and worthwhile thing to try.
I still am debating SVS SB 2000 vs Hsu VTF 15H vs Hsu ULS 15. My needs are music oriented rather than HT. Any comments specific to these three choices for music rather than HT would be most welcome, to help me with my decision. Thanks again all!
"The setup is in the living room, with three walls, and the fourth side open to the dining room. The living room itself would have been 18' L X 12' W X 18' H = 3888 cu. ft, but the fact that it opens up to the dining room makes the entire space more like 40' L X 18' W X 12' = 8540 cu. ft. Would I benefit from a subwoofer and which one should I get?"
I would first get a more powerful amp for your main speakers given the size of your room. You're NAD is good in that it jumps the amp and preamp section externally using rca jacks. It can be used just as a preamp. For subs, I would consider getting 2 small powered subs that are designed for music and not HT.
1. Agree to buy quality now and 'double up' later if you wish. 2. I would think if you are able to get a powered sub, that will allow you to try to blend the 2 speakers using the crossover...or run them in parallel. I have played with Celestions and SF Guraneris and subs...and eventually found that running in parallel seemed to work for me despite its own imperfections due to the extension of the satellites. 3. If you are going to try an amp...i always like trying a brand whose sound i like...and go a bit higher up the chain just to see if the effect you are looking for is possible...and then back down into the price range. Because if the bigger models still cannot deliver what you want...then you've saved yourself a lot of time trying to audition a particular model(s) seriously. Parasound, Bryston's newer stuff, NAD make good stuff. 4. Between HSU and SVS, hard to say. I think both have good reputations. SVS is known (i think) for tremendous bass power/$. But a lot of people with music only systems stick with HSU as well. Gut tells me the ease/flexibility of setup will matter more here, and there you are going to have to investiate the speicific models in your price range and see which one allows better setup options. 5. Finally, regardless of which sub you go (or amp), if you can isolate the sub from the floor...i often find it makes a big difference (usually a good one) in terms of deliver clean bass that is not being 'echoed' by a wooden or vibrating floor.
hope that helps...keep asking if you have any other questions...
Lloyd, When you suggest a more powerful amp, what level of power should I consider? My NAD 365BEE is 80W per channel. I could consider something like an Anthem integrated amp at 225W per channel. Should I consider other brands or wattage as well? My spend comfort is around 2K. Thanks again!
Thank you Lloyd. I will try a more powerful amp if I can get one. Good suggestion and thanks for the detailed explanation on the physics.
Marty, I have researched the brands you suggested. My options are a pair of SVS SB1000, a single SVS SB2000, a single Hsu VTF 15H or ULS 15, or a single Rhythmik F12.
The Hsu VTF 15H or ULS 15 are the best deals at the moment - a Black Friday special.
I would rather buy a single higher end now and add one more later.
Please let me know which one you think fits my need the best - my needs are musical rather than movies.
Several good brands are available on-line and offer a free in-home trial period. I'd agree with Lloyd that your space is large and that a subwoofer (or two) would likely improve the tonal balance of your system, but a free trial allows you to satisfy yourself.
One very appealing offer comes from SVS (svsound.com), which shows a pair of sealed 12" subs for $950 (last I looked). The SVS subs have an excellent rep, and a pair of subs is likely to get you smoother in-room response than a single sub. If you do want to stick to one subwoofer, you could check out Rythmik (I use two and am completely satisfied) or HSU (another brand with a good rep).
1. You have an exceedingly large space...that will challenge many systems to provide serious bass/impact. Presumably you know this already. After all, you live in the space and know how much volume it takes to really drive that room with impact.
2. Bass impact comes from [simplistically] two places: a) the ability for your main speaker AND amp to wallop you in the upper bass, and in the case of your speakers perhaps teh mid bass as well. So a powerful amp here [may help]. Sometimes, adding mass damping to the top of your speaker can help a little as well...try a 20kg weight on top of each speaker (preferably not iron due to magnetism issues)...and see what happens
It also comes from lower regions which can be enhanced by a sub when set up well. Surprisingly, a classical recording often has very low bass signals that give you a sense of the recording venue/space...in my case, i drive a Velodyne DD18 with Wilson X1/Grand Slamms...and when you shut the Velodyne off, the sense of space collapses and you have 2 speakers in front of you with a soundstage behind them...vs around you.
3. If you can try a high powered (high current) amp even for a weekend, i would be curious what happens to your upper bass slam. If you can try either a Velodyne or REL, i would be curious as well
Hope that helps a little. YMMV. Good luck and pls continue to post questions...
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