Drubin, No doubt that Reina likes Creek, and that he said some nice things about DK. We might disagree about the review being "luke warm at best, but it certainly isn't as positive as Martin DeWulf's review of the DK Signature. I don't trash other people's systems, would never say the amp is for everybody, or that it destroys all other components, but I absolutely believe it's a great value for dollar product. While the Stereophile Review may not be all it could, it also comes to the conclusion that the DK is a great value, and other reviews concur. I'm very comfortable encouraging people to audition it against both integrateds and separates and let the chips fall.
It's too bad the company didn't send Bound For Sound a Statement Integrated instead of the Signature. While the Signature is very good, and a big improvement on the standard integrated, the Statement is in another league!
Nobody should take my word, they shouldn't take a review as gospel, and they should ignore sniping from people who have never heard the amp. I hope they will judge for themselves, put the DK on the short list of must listen components, and spend time listening to music in their own systems.
A. Look at their history...they...NOT the reviewers were the original touters.
B. Go to their website and read up on the X-Dream...you know...the speaker that we have heard about for years yet it hasn't materialized as far as I am aware.
C. Larry...even though some time ago he admitted in the forum that it probably wasn't the best thing for him to come in here and puff out his chest does it ONCE AGAIN....not to mention...he ONLY takes the vague touchy feely words out of the review. C'mon Larry....why don't you post the Stereophile Comparison section.
I have no need at all to bash DK...but if somebody is gonna put himself...or his product on a self-proclaimed pedestal...then they shouldn't be surprised when somebody comes to challenge it.
now...lets tally up the pro vs anti DK camp...or should I say anti DK marketing tactics.
How many Anti's are involved in the Audio Industry...i.e. Sales
How Many Pro's are stereo salesmen?...and how many are selling for LSA?
Folks like Jimmy Olsen, Emerawski, and Audioari1 are the reason that DK has such a bad reputation here on AudiogoN. That is if indeed they are different people and not one.
84audio makes valid DK points with class, as does LSA, though I don't think Larry should participate here.
It's the pro DK 'pushers', who for the most part are newer members, declaring DK is king and bashing the likes of Cary and Electrocompaniet products, that show no class and really pull DK down in the mud. As I tell my children, speaking ill of another person does not make you a better person.
I haven't heard the latest DK designs. I did hear the mk II version after all the hype last year, and felt it represented a solid value at it's price point. I didn't buy one, and it didn't make me want to run out and hear a mk III or Signature (I couldn't if I wanted to, as my local DK dealer has dropped the line in favor of Forbidden City), but it is a decent amp and a good entry into the high end for beginners. It's a shame that so many get caught up in declaring it the greatest invention since the wheel. From my experiences last year, I found that most DK pushers had little experience with expensive gear, as the DK was all they could afford. Nothing wrong with that, I'm not a snob, but show a little class when you enter into the high end please. It's a good value, but not the best deal in audio. Welcome to high end audio, enjoy yourself, hang around, you may find out, as other former DK owners have, that you have a nice start to a journey, you are not at the end though.
Toyota's are wonderful vehicle's, but lets not bash Ferrari's, Rolls Royce's, and McLaren's just to defend how wonderful a Toyota is.
The good or bad news, depending on your perspective, is that the journey never ends. Things change in time, and today's great product may be tomorrow's above average gear. I've been seriously "updating" my system for the last 20 years, and have been enjoying both the music and the chase. Again, I believe LSA will be a player in the industry for some time to come, and that many experienced audiophiles will be happy with these products, but time and sales will tell the story. I'm not married to DK. Nothing stays the same, and LSA, like every other company, will have to keep improving to stay competitive.
I also agree that it is pointless to bash another person's equipment. My system's sound is not going to change no matter how much I ridicule somebody elses choices. Discovery is part of the fun, and listening to different gear is the best way to learn.
I'm sure that most would agree that both subjectivity and passion play a large role of this hobby - just review the tube versus solid state debates on Agon as an example. The DK issue has, unfortunately, fallen into the middle one of these debates, with both sides defending their point of view. Some DK users have gone over-the-top with their enthusiasm, to which others have responded in similar fashion. Both sides have used "ad hominine" type arguments (e.g., he is a newbee or his amp company has gone out of business) which provide no useful information, but is interesting to observe.
DK has been criticized for over-the-top advertisement and has been accused of shill advertising. Advertisement for a large number of high end components is also over-the-top, just look at any issues of Stereophile or Hi Fi +. Is there a different standard for DK? Also, while we may suspect Daniel K of shill advertisement (an associate of a person selling goods or services, who pretends no association to the seller and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer), there is absolutely no evidence the Larry Staples of doing so, as some have hinted at.
I have always selected components based on how they sound to me - not from a review and not from Agon comments. However, reviews and Agon comments can lead me to listen to a product or possibly avoid listening. Based on the Stereophile review, I might not have listened to the DK. My take on the review is that it is luke warm and somewhat self-contradictory (e.g. the less expensive Creek sounds better at some things, but the DK is comparable to $7K separates). However, for my room, musical tastes, and system, I did not agree with the less positive comments of the review.
Paired with Totem Forests, I have enjoyed the DK MkII amp for over a year, and I have no intention of selling or changing amps. My musical tastes tend to be mostly Jazz, classical (more single instruments or quartets rather than symphony), and female vocalists, although eclectic is probably the best description. I compared the DK amp to a number of similarly priced amps and selected the DK based on my tastes. Specifically, I like the sound-stage, power, and imagery of the DK. I also enjoy the emotional conveyance produced by the amp. The sound of the amp is a little warmish, and it has a tube feel, which might not be enjoyed by those who like SS amps. These are subjective things, but music is a subjective experience. BTW, I found a large positive change from changing tubes, with my favorites being the CCA and early 60's Mullard. I have not had a left - right issue. IMHO, the DK MkII is a good amp for the money. I think I'll go home and listen to some music.
Actually, I'm surprised more companies don't utilize a similar approach to DK's of combining a tube preamp section with high powered solid state output. I have enjoyed this combo with different separates for many years.
Hi Jmcgrogam2, What are you kidding?DK sounds like entry level.This thing put my Ml Ref and Plinius 100mk-3 to shame in a misical and natural way.Then again maybe they were just mid-fi.Your statement is one of a pompous person.I don't say DK is the best but what exactly is?It's all about opinions and tastes but it doesn't have to be nasty.Have fun with your ultra high end equipment.Regards,Bob
It makes sense that BAT offers a hybrid integrated since they design both solid state and tube preamps and amps. Blue Circle and Unison Research have hybrid integrateds too. I'm still surprised there aren't more.
Maybe it's because the decision to offer tube or solid state components takes a fundamentally different mindset from the standpoint of taste and preference. Maybe it's because the designers behind components like 47 Labs, Sun Audio, Channel Island Audio, Audio Mirror, Manley, deHavilland, Rogue Audio, First Sound, etc. build pieces that will present music the way THEY would want to hear it and that a hybrid design to them lacks the purity or compromises each extreme. I don't know, I'm just a ramblin'...man!
Bobf, I'll take it that you're a glass half empty kind of guy as opposed to a glass half full, since you chose to focus on the 'entry level' part of my 'entry into high end' comment. Just remember, it's your choice to take offense, since no offense was intended.
If you truely feel that the DK is the best that high end has to offer, you are very fortunate, as it will save you a lot of money. So rejoice, and enjoy the music.
84audio and Johnrob, congrats on your informative posts. They are an act of class from DK users. Perhaps if Audiogon is exposed to more knowledgable and experienced DK owners such as yourselves, DK's reputation can be revived. There is no doubt that LSA is more of a class act than DK was, so there is always hope.
John-Jmcgrogan, The point I was trying to make was that I don't judge other peoples equiptment nor am I an expert on what the perfect sound is but I do know from many years of listening and concerts(various music)that saying this product is entry level is a tad pushing it.I have been fortunate enough to finally realize we don't need to spend huge $$ to have great sounding music(wish I figured this one out many years ago).This mine is better than yours thing is just really getting old,not that i'm saying you said that.Regards,Bob
Ellery, you mentioned something about how DK has over-the-top marketing for the X-Dream loudspeaker, but their own touting is nothing compared to what the reviewers are saying. Here is a quote from an actual review of the DK X-Dream speaker:
"I have to say that the X-Dream F7 loudspeaker system is the best that there is, the best that there ever was, and I suspect the best that there will ever be. It is the most impressive audio component I have ever experienced, and gets my vote for product of the decade."
What do you think other manufacturers in high-end audio would be doing if they got a review like that? I bet they would be touting it everywhere, in all their advertisements, and in all the magazines. Comparatively speaking, DK is being pretty laid back about it.
Drubin, I think the point is that, either everyone writing reviews for DK products are clowns or DK products really are that good. So many clowns, in so many different magazines, around the world? As much as you want to think that your equipment is better, unfortunately for you DK is taking over the industry - and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
"DK is taking over the industry". What a crock of crap that is!
X-Dream F7, is that in production? Where can I audition it or buy it? Perhaps Larry is just waiting for the opportunity to pounce on the opportunity that the review presents, or more probably he is too smart to do so. As I recall it is somewhat flawed - Just another reviewer clown/clone IMHO. The same internet rag is the one the pronounced the original DKII as being so great, in absolute terms, not just a good amp with value which is what the consensus appears to be.
With supporting comments such as yours its small wonder cynics abound when it comes to DK's stuff. If I ever get to hear it I'll offer my opinion on its value/sound ratio.
Ellery, am I supposed to get permission from Larry to make comments about DK?
As with all things that have greatness, first there is skepticism, which then gets replaced by fear, and finally at the final stage turns into admiration.
I think all the DK bashers in this thread are crippled by fear in the face of greatness.
1. Who said Audioaril represents DK (or for that matter anyone other than himself).
2. Generally, it's frowned upon for an owner to get involved in these threads. If Larry vigorously defends DK, he will be criticized. If he does nothing "it speaks volumes." Think about the dilemma.
3. I doubt that anyone takes these over the top statements seriously.
4. Some of the posts remind me of my daughter's behavior with her brother. She does things just to get a reaction, and she is very good at it. The trouble is, he doesn't see it, but he's only nine.
I have owned the DK MK II for about a month now. I can't relate it to "high end equipment" because I haven't owned high end equipment recently. In fact, I don't know if I ever owned high end equipment, though I owned a CJ2500A a couple years ago. Unfortunately, I remember nothing about it. I didn't have the components I have now when I did have it. So, I guess it doesn't matter.
But I can relate the DK to a Jolida 801A integrated amp. Is Jolida an "entry-level" brand? I'm sure some would say yes (maybe most people in here would say yes, and I'm kind of on that second step in an endless journey as someone else described it). However, others would say that it is the best they can afford. That shouldn't make them bad people, and it doesn't bother me when someone tells me how great their system is. Kind of like when someone tells me a story about a great experience of theirs. I'm not going to try to up them on it even if my experience was better. Why should I? I'm happy that they're happy.
In general, the "ews and ahs" effect of audio components is an examination into human behavior. Why do we "ew and ah" anyway? What is it about fireworks that makes us say ew and ah though we've seen fireworks (usually the same ones) for a very, very long time.
To me, the "ew and ah" effect is to show our appreciation of what we are experiencing.
Kind of like drinking an expensive bottle of wine. The key question to me is: What is it about one wine that makes it taste better to one person while another person likes another wine over it?
The only time someone else's opinion matters to me is when they've experienced it themselves and can speak about it's characteristics and what makes it a good value compared to other similar products in the same price range.
Unfortunately, stereo equipment isn't as easy as a commodity to experiment with unless you have a lot of money or a very flexible and understanding dealer. I think the Stereophile review included the Creek. Heck, I'd say demo both the DK and the Creek and choose the one you like more. Will there be trade offs? I'm betting yes. Will it be the last piece of equipment you buy? Ha, ha, ha, not if you're reading this!
So, why did I buy the DK amp? I read some good things about it and I got it for a great price. Could I have gone out and demoed a bunch of other amps or used amps? Sure, but unfortunately I don't have the time. And, I have a 30 day trial. I figured if I didn't like it I could return it. So far, I like it. Why?
Because it sounds better than my Jolida. So, I'm pretty happy with it, though I'd like to roll some tubes just so I can find out what other types of changes I can make (not to be read as improvements) by doing so.
That's it. I'm not going to use some esoterical phrases (like palpable) to try to change anyone's opinion who doesn't care for it because it's theirs and they have a right to it. And, to be honest, they wouldn't listen to me anyway as they've already made up their mind about this brand. That's cool. Not everyone likes the same type of wine. Hell, not everyone likes wine!
But, I would say that it's kind of a shame if they haven't at least listened to it first. Do I think that will change their mind? Probably not. My guess is they would be somewhat open minded about it, but they would probably listen for things to criticize. Not because they didn't like it, but because there have been too many people on here overly praising it. The people on here critical of DK seem to be bothered more by people who write that it's the best, and my guess is the people who don't like those people would listen for characteristics of the amp they didn't like to prove their point that it isn't the best. Maybe they would compliment it in some ways to be fair (hey, just about eveyrone on here is good natured enough to be on here in the first place!). I think people who are critical about the amp are missing the opportunity to make an educated and experienced decision. Hey, they have a lot more experience about audio equipment than I do, and I respect them for it.
But, like wines, there's a lot out there for all of us to partake. I say let's just enjoy the music with what we can afford and not get stressed and offensive with each other about it. It's music. Righ? So, if someone says it's the best, just smile at them and nod knowing that they are on a journey. Maybe you would get better results by encouraging DK owners to try some other amps now that they've had an opportunity to learn more about "better" gear.
We're a small group of people that really only understands each other. Try talking audio to other people outside this group. They look at you like a dear in the headlights. So, all we have is each other. Woudln't it be cool if we just said, "ya, you like your system? You think it's the bomb? Cool for you!"
Well, I think Mark has made a very good and balanced summary of the whole DK matter and even hobbyists in general. Definitely a first for a DK owner/promoter new to Audiogon. I know his post won't settle the issue, but it makes me feel a whole lot better about it. Thanks!
I don't own and have never heard a DK Design amp, but it has been interesting to read the DK threads for what they reveal about the hi-end business and the personalities of the posters. My only reason for my getting involved at this point, in the most minor way, is a clarification.
Until now, I thought all the DK (LSA Group) integrateds sold for around $3,000. Certainly the perceived quality of the DK integrated relative to its price has been one of the main points argued in its favor from the beginning of this debate about a year ago. The recent Bound for Sound review of the DK Signature alerted me to the fact that he MSRP for that model is $6,000. There is nothing wrong with DK selling a one model for twice the price of its standard offering, but it does alter the value equation. Some of the posters to this thread seem to glossed over the price differential in generalizing about the value represented by DK amps, especially when they refer to the Bound for Sound review.
I think all the DK bashers in this thread are crippled by fear in the face of greatness. Audioari1
ROTFLMAO!! I have to hand it to you Audioari1, at least you provide some comic relief, if nothing else. That's the best laugh I've had in awhile. You really should be working the comedy clubs.
Thank goodness that posts from the likes of Aceboympk and Johnrob add to those of 84audio to demonstrate that some DK owners are indeed audiophiles and civil human beings as well. Welcome to you all. If you could kindly weed out the infantile pro DK responders such as Audioari1 (he must be a dealer), it would go a long way towards establishing respect for the DK brand.
Well, right now I own Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Signature Monitors. They are highly efficient at 92db, have a great freq range 35hz-25khz, and fit into my listening room nicely (though I'm really wanting a full range tower, yet too big for my room!). The Seas drivers and Millenium tweeter are outstanding. The M-T-M design of Dr. D'Appolito (or whatever his name is) is a fantastic design and Ty did a fantastic job working with it.
I've also heard very good results matching the DK with Van Schweikert and Zu speakers.
I am also planning on changing my front end which is also a Jolida (with Level 1 mods). I like it a lot, but I'm looking for something that is a little more detailed, but not forward sounding. Unfortunatley, I'll have to pay double what I paid for it! Ah, that's ok it's only money right ;-).
I've read some good things about the Consonance Droplet (maybe a bit "over praised" like the DK amps) and the Audio Aero Prima MK III (the new one with the Sony transport). However, I'm having troubles negotiating with owners on the PayPal fees. I wish I could listen to both on my system first. Ho hum!
I've been on Agon for about 4 years now, and I don't remember buyers ALWAYS having to pay for PayPal fees. Kind of weird that two sellers and I walked away from a deal for $2200 over $66 in PayPal fees. But, no worries.
What will be shall be. It's a long road, I'm meeting some cool people, and enjoying my experience learning about the sound I enjoy. Thanks for your polite reception to my long-winded disertation!
Jmcgrogan, thanks I am glad you enjoy my posts :). Let me make something clear, I am NOT a DK dealer. However, I was a DK dealer about a year ago until the former owner (Daniel Khesin) terminated our relationship because I was selling DK amps on the internet. After taking over the company, Larry Staples offered to re-instate my dealership, but alas I am no longer in the business.
So I really have nothing to gain financially with any of my posts.
I wouldn't pay $6k for an integrated amp regardless of who made it. There are some separate used monoblocks that I would pay $6k for, but then I'd have to upgrade everything in my system from PC/IC/speaker cables, Preamp, Front End, speakers and room treatments. I would budget about $15-20k to get everything set up properly.
Then I would contact a locksmith to get the doors to my house open because my wife would have changed the locks.
That would give me an opportunity to get my system out of the house. Now where to set it up because it won't fit in the car I'll be sleeping in. ;-)
I think the price point for these amps on the used market is right where they belong. In fact, I think they're a good bargain at that price, though I've seen some used 300B tube amps at that price that are REALLY attractive! Some people who haven't heard the amp may get a chance to sample them and flip them right away (if they didn't like it) for a pretty cheap price. Or, some folks may find "better" sounding amps for the same price as these are used. That Creek model for $1500 (the same price as these are going for used) would be a great A/B test.
My recommendation: Judge your ears and not someone else's words. They got you this far.
Dougmc, Actually they offer 3 integrateds. The Standard at $3200, the Signature at $6000 and the Statement (which is just being released) at $9000. I have heard all 3, and believe they are all good values at their respective price points. The Standards value is not diminished by the companies other offerings. Like many other manufacturers, LSA/DK offers the potential customer several choices
Stepping back a bit, it's funny to read that a piece of electronics that costs $9000 is a "good Value". Try convincing some poor college kid surviving on Cup-O-Noodlles of that. But then again that's what this hobby does to us. Along with heightening our listening pleasure it also raises our level of fiscal tolerance.
I just happened on this thread and since I don't have a lot of time being able to surf the threads, I am surprised by back and forth bashing of each other over this brand.
It does remind me of when Odyssey started out with the Stratos. It was the same kind of item. Guys were saying the amp was not good and a lot were saying it was great. I found a large number gave opinions without ever having heard the amp. I felt then that if you are giving an opinion, hear it first before you praise or condemn it.
I have had quite a few systems and have had high end/ low end etc. etc. and on and on.
I had not had an integrated for a number of years so I took a chance and bought one a week ago. I had been using a Cary V12/ Emotive Audio Erato/ Wyetech Labs Onyx mono blocks and Coral preamp. None of them slouches and yes, not as expensive, deemed higher end than some. However, more than decent and expensive for some.
Well, my findings were that the DK Ref Mk ll is not out of place with them. Is it as refined/ warm etc. as the others? Not quite, but not far. I did not like it when I first got it with the stock tubes. As I do with all the amps/ pre's I have owned (except the Wyetech which seems to have great tubes right from the start), I changed them. The DK seems to really be affected by tube rolling and my quick changes of two different 6922/ 7308 tubes resulted in smoother highs, better focus and sound staging. So I really had to toss a coin and I am satisfied with what I purchased and could I live with it? Absolutely. Especially with the ease of use. Limited cabling/ one box etc. etc.
So what if some are beating their chests. I have read threads over the years from others that owned Krells/ Levinson's/ Cary's et al do the same. I am glad they like the preamp. Yes. As their budgets afford and ears/ likes change, they will most likely buy something else. Who does not that takes up the hobby. Are we not forever looking for that little tweak/ upgrade that will get us to the nirvana? Only to find we were closer a year ago, with 5 less changes? Makes it fun.
For all, respect each other in this never ending search. We all started out and our pride of ownership sometimes made us a little exaggerated in our claims boasts. We get over it. They will also realize that their bravado might have been as tipped up as some of the equipment out there. It's like a new speaker. Kind of bright/ edgy when starting out. Over time, it mellows out. Experience will also do that with you.
Anyway, will spend some time with the DK. A pleasant surprise. I tend to side with the reviewers. It's a good buy in audio. There are a lot out there. As we gain experience, we find more. Denon 103 cartridges/ Shelter 501/ Vandy 2's and 3's/ Quicksilver line stages and some of their amps/ and on and on. There are a lot of good buys. My week with the DK makes me feel that DK has something. Maybe just change their supposed marketing and let the owners decide. I respect Bound for Sound with their lack of advertising. It tipped my decision to try one of the integrateds. Maybe the Signature next...... (guess I will never learn. Time to try something new again)
thanks I take no sides as all have their points. I just felt there are some that are abusing the line because of perceived marketing rather than what they are selling. A crime. I also tried some Odyssey. Not bad for the money again. Not the best, but you are getting a lot of amp for the $.
I have sampled a few of the posts on this recent DK thread and one paragraph from Jmcgrogan2 stands out (from my perspective):
"84audio and Johnrob, congrats on your informative posts. They are an act of class from DK users. Perhaps if Audiogon is exposed to more knowledgable and experienced DK owners such as yourselves, DK's reputation can be revived. There is no doubt that LSA is more of a class act than DK was, so there is always hope."
I can appreciate these kind of "bridge building" statements, but I participated in a much earlier DK thread in which Larry Staples (LSA) did not display much class at all. Since my experience with the product (at the time, VS-1 MKII Reference) was completely negative and I said so, Larry seriously called into question my ability to hear. I conceded at the time that I could have had a bad sample, but I my experience was reported honestly and with out malice.
I brought the discussion with Larry off line, and to his credit, he apologized, sincerely--I believe--privately.
I know manufactures get frustrated with the off hand trashing that they feel they unjustifiably sometimes get. They cannot control the situation (system set up) in which their gear is tested, etc. But...I did not report anything that I did not verify with an other listener (with no planting of my impressions first) and cross reference with other gear for comparison.
As a manufacturer, LSA and co need to just take their lumps from people who did not like their product but who did try the product for an extended period of time and gave it every opportunity possible to perform well. Chalk it all up to poor quality control, but to trash someones hearing ability in Audio is as close to fightin words as it comes.
The bashing did not all come from a gang of anonymous posters intend on ruining a mans life work, as Larry later complained. It sometimes came directly from those who should know better.
1 . why comparing the amps with a 1000usd speaker if he has also a 12000usd speaker standing next to it? 2 . calling a 3200usd amp "a extraordinary value" , while the 1500usd amp sound better..........
Well I suppose the new owner wants the public to visit in person a dealer whose intention is to demo a properly set up and performing audio system. No more mail order brides,no more sleasze. A business profile that is supportive of all involved, including the customer..Tom
I am looking forward to hearing the new Statement amp from LSA. It is no longer an integrated amp. I also am anxious to hear the Model 10 speakers. Together this must be something to hear.
I heard the 10's a few months back with the Statement integrated, Exemplar 5910 on a Sistrum Sp1. Music I had played at home and elsewhere...music detail and cues I had never experienced before. Very cool..Tom
I heard the LSA Model 10s at the RMAF with all Exemplar/LSA electronics. I have never heard anything approaching this sonic reproduction. Too expensive, however.
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