Directionality Explained

Talk to da hand! 🤚 

I was stickin' up for you!

What a pair of whacko! Begone trolls! I had high hopes that the class this year would be better. Oh, well, there’s always next year! 

The laugh's on you...... Geoff peed in the deep end! 

Just a little child who thinks he is king of the wading pool, while everyone laughs at him from the deep end.

"Your effect on me can be likened to a mosquito 🦟 drawing some blood from my arm."

Now, that may be time to consider quinines.

Your effect on me can be likened to a mosquito 🦟 drawing some blood from my arm. I just squish it. End of mosquito. 

I don't believe that was so much whining as lamenting....

"Cannot believe u guys are still discussing this."

Discussing what? There has been no discussion in a while.

We, however, have been blessed by reading geoffkait’s post that included "my...short...sorry...rod". Is there a report whiner button here?

What are you in for?

lastfunitis, or lastpunitis?

One flew East, one flew West, one flew over the cuckoo’s nest. 

Well! This thread has gotten directional.

Why is heaudio123 on this thread? Because he’s a troll and a stalker. Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night? It’s getting so you can’t have discussion about a topic above the grasp of a tenth grader without attracting this kind of behavior. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, heaudio, “But I want to BE somebody!”

We’re not exactly sure why justmetoo is here. Most likely another trouble maker. 

@cakyol
Ahhhh, wat was se kwestschen... witsch is se best derekschen to wat?
Was olreddy answad, no?
Eh, follo se Pfeil, mensch! 😉 

Cannot believe u guys are still discussing this. 

Not content to hammer on a square peg all day, someone is now channelling their inner Bart Simpson. Could a cow be far behind?

Eat my shorts! Sorry about your rod.

You can teach a man to fish, but if he doesn't own a fishing rod, he may still talk about the directionality of audio cables 16 hours a day.

kozka

What if we have a daughter?

you mean, like with the fly kite guy?....hmmm....rather impossible...this would require at least 3 minutes intimate commitment on his side...but has not time....he is constantly on this board..

>>>>The Air Force never sleeps. Snooze you lose bozo.

danvignau
If wire is directional, does each leg of a speaker cable flow in the opposite direction from the other> One wire supplies power to push the speaker; the pulls it. As I have said before, A/C power and speaker push pull current, does not just flow out like water from a faucet.

>>>>Were you about to make a point regarding directionality? You described alternating current but it seems like something’s missing.

If wire is directional, does each leg of a speaker cable flow in the opposite direction from the other>  One wire supplies power to push the speaker; the pulls it.  As I have said before, A/C power and speaker push pull current, does not just flow out like water from a faucet.

it is quite revealing the first time you take an old and highly revered classic amp/preamp/speaker apart, and see the internal parts, thin wires, fairly common stuff .... and it sounds sooooo good.

You’ve been misinformed. It’s not your fault. 😬

During first stage recovery after drawing copper wire there is an internal rearrangement of the microstrcuture, second stage recrystalization recovers mechanical and electrical characteristics. If this didn't occur the wire would have microscopic holes and deformations reducing conductivity.  Whatever you do with your beat up sheet of copper I hope it isn't making a flat cover for a table, if so then heating and forming  to restore to its it's original condition would help out.

What if we have a daughter?   

you mean, like with the fly kite guy?....hmmm....rather impossible...this would require at least 3 minutes intimate commitment on his side...but has not time....he is constantly on this board..

Hey, Jonsey! Let me ‘splain something to you. Let’s say you take a thin copper sheet and you beat it all around on one side with a hammer for five minutes. Then you anneal the hammered copper sheet. Do you actually believe the copper sheet will be healed to almost It’s original condition? That doesn’t even make sense to a five year old.

Hey, heaudio, I never said cryogenic treatment reverses the deformation. Nobody ever said it did. I’ll grant you there’s a change, but a change doesn’t mean some grand magical transformation. Cryogenics is mostly cold tempering. If a frog 🐸 had wings it wouldn’t bump its rear end so much.

There are two stages recovery and recrystalization . Recrystalization extinguishes offsets in the drawn wire making its characteristics very close to the rods before the drawing process. If the deformations are not gotten rid of as much as possible it decreases the conductivity of the wire. 

If you cant' reverse the physical deformation once it's occurred then why do you go on incessantly about cryogenic treatment?  .... you can't say something can't be changed, then say you can make a change. Which is it?

Your ignorance w.r.t. annealing does not make it untrue either, but it is not like we are keeping a running count of foot in the mouth disease.

Gong! Another crazy idea by the pseudo skeptic side. You cannot reverse the physical deformation once it’s occurred. Nothing is written unless I say it’s written. 

After it is pulled through the die it goes through annealing where  recrystalization occurs. Electrons is copper bounce around every which direction voltage is applied causing charge flow. Nothing about this process would cause audible differences in which direction the voltage is applied to the wire. Instruments can measure well beyond human hearing no golden ears required. 

You can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The decreasing diameter of the dies insures that you can’t get back to a symmetrical lattice structure no matter what you do, even if the wire is reversed from one die to the next. which it almost certainly isn’t. Why would it? If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. You guys will think up all kinds of crazy things, though.  I’m only humoring humoring you. 🤗

@geoffkait 
however, that symmetrical structure is 🔜 deformed 🔙 during manufacture, especially when the copper wire is pulled through the final die, although most likely deformation has already occurred during pulling through previous dies. Thus, the crystal lattice structure is no longer symmetrical, far from it.

Yes, but what if the direction the cable is pulled through the dies is reversed for each pass?  Thus, the directionality imparted via the first pass through the die is neutralized via the second (reverse direction) pass.  How do we know this isn't SOP?

A good ear candling 🕯  fix you right up, fella. Must be tough not hearing too good.

Audiophile effect:
Adjective;
 audible but hides from those pesky instruments that can measure well beyond anything humans can hear. 

cat_doorman
I wonder if having a preference for wire direction correlates to a sensitivity to absolute polarity.

I don’t think the physics of preferential flow direction are being questioned here. Geometry can create those conditions. Look at the Tesla valve in fluid flow for an analogous example. Diodes aren’t strictly geometry but are definitely have a directional bias. Since the structure of cable is not assumed to be perfect it should logically follow that one direction could have slightly different physical characteristics. I think where most people object is that since audio is composed of AC then the effect of these differences should cancel out.

>>>>>The theory of wire directionality is based on the premise that wire is actually not symmetrical physically. The crystal lattice structure of pure molten copper and copper when it has cooled is symmetrical; however, that symmetrical structure is 🔜 deformed 🔙 during manufacture, especially when the copper wire is pulled through the final die, although most likely deformation has already occurred during pulling through previous dies. Thus, the crystal lattice structure is no longer symmetrical, far from it. Like quills on a porcupine’s back. 🔙 🔙 🔙 One assumes photons prefer to travel in the direction of the quills. 🤗

Absolute polarity is a separate issue. It’s not actually correct to say wires act like diodes. Directionality is an audiophile effect, audible, but not an effect that shows up in other applications. Absolute polarity can easily be separated from wire directionality of wire experimentally. 

I wonder if having a preference for wire direction correlates to a sensitivity to absolute polarity.

I don’t think the physics of preferential flow direction are being questioned here. Geometry can create those conditions. Look at the Tesla valve in fluid flow for an analogous example. Diodes aren’t strictly geometry but are definitely have a directional bias. Since the structure of cable is not assumed to be perfect it should logically follow that one direction could have slightly different physical characteristics. I think where most people object is that since audio is composed of AC then the effect of these differences should cancel out.

There are people able to tell if an audio track is phase inverted. I think some entire albums are or only certain tracks. Some components also are phase inverting. I’ve never heard it so I can’t verify it. I believe this is why there is a phase inversion switch on some preamps. 
So if the electrons flow more easily in one direction than the other then perhaps those sensitive to absolute phase would be able to detect a difference. Can the same effect of reversing a cable’s direction be achieved by swapping the polarity on one end? My tin ears have never experienced it so I’m genuinely curious. Maybe some of those that have definite preferences in their own system can experiment for the edification of the rest of us. 

Do some price comparison shopping. Mouser is often cheaper, as are the others. Digikey has been a bit high on low quantities lately.

thanks heaudio123. I typically buy from digikey. I think they will be reputable enuf. 
Thanks again

kozka,

"Son of Glup and Jeff-fly-Kite should start their own thread...
What do you think guys?"

What if we have a daughter?

I put all my cables doggy style. 

They would prefer listening to your drivel? 😬

Son of Glup and Jeff-fly-Kite should start their own thread...
What do you think guys?

glupson
You are not that knowledgeable. I like teaching you. A lighter made in heaven.

>>>>Do you have a new ghost writer? That one was almost funny. 

Grades are based on how well the student memorizes whatever is in the book, right, or wrong

what ????
I guess maybe only when you are studying some brain washing courses  filled with leftist dogmas and worn out slogans that you have to memorize in order to become some kind of commisar or a SJW blogger or some other non contributing to society moron...
Not in engineering...that is why you don't see many engineers in politics...they can think and solve problems...

 

I assume at 50-63V. You won't get 105C/10K hours in those values unless you build it from a bunch of smaller ones. You may find one, but very expensive. There are 8,000 hours at 105C and that is likely close enough.  Nichicon, UCC (United Chemicon), Kemet, TDK, Cornell all have stuff up in that size area and all reputable.  The high temp, long life are typically high ripple/low ESR as well. Most caps in audio I have found are 85C/2000 hours.  Keep in mind even though they are 105C/10K hours, pretty much all bets are off once you get to about 15-20 years.

I would even trust many of the Asian brands if I knew I was getting the real thing, but unless you are buying from an authorized distributor (Arrow, Mouser, Digikey, Future, Avnet, Mouser ... etc.) you are taking your chances.