Directional speaker cables - switching direction

By the way, there is probably no doubt about wire directionality being produced by the final die since cable manufacturers have been marking the wire as it comes off the spool for decades in order to be able to correctly mark the cables with ARROWS. Think of it like porcupine quills. Wouldn't it be easier to stroke a porcupine's back going in the direction of the quills instead of the opposite direction?

Jea48, not sure why you asked the last question, the one about flipping solid core silver, since silver or any metal solid or stranded conductor should exhibit directionality since they are crystal structures. Which brings me to this rather disturbing situation: if copper and silver cables are directional, then aren't all wires Nd fuses directional as well? If that last statement is TRUE then we have a big problem. Mathematically, unless someone tracked the wire as it came off the spool as Crump suggests, there is a 50% probability that any wire or conductor or fuse in the system is installed backwards. This holds TRUE for any internal wiring, capacitor, resistor, crossover network, speaker wiring, transformer, inductor or fuse. If you see what I mean.

Jea48, directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die. As least that's what I think. The directionality is independent of the velocity of the signal, I.e., the audio signal. I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. Now if you are asking me how the dielectric material affects the signal,I actually don't know. I bet it's complicated though. Wink, wink.
12-18-14: Geoffkait

Geoffkait,

Thanks for the response.

directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die.

That's what the likes of Bill Lowe of Audioquest and the late Bob Crump preached for years. There are countless others in the same camp as you know that preach the same theory. And until someone comes up with a better explanation that's good enough for me.

Here is a post of the late Bob Crump's.

◾Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... rcrump 06:45:41 09/30/00 (11)

In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... posted by Greg R. on September 29, 2000 at 19:47:48:


Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....

Here is another post of Bob's from the same thread.

◾Re: Is stranded core directional also? rcrump 03:59:51 10/02/00 (2)

In Reply to: Re: Is stranded core directional also? posted by steve b on October 01, 2000 at 18:05:36:


Steve, I don't want to speculate why wire is directional, but it is as poor Greg has found in a later post....I spent about three months playing with such things before I released my commercial interconnects and speaker wire and went about as crazy as Greg is going right now and can't tell you how much wire I trashed as I forgot to mark it with some masking take as I took it off the spool....Directionality in wire will be measured some day as it appears to be an FM distortion and wandering pianos (small phase changes with frequency) will be a thing of the past. Until then use your ears to discern directionality of wire. Stranded wire likely suffers from a lack of focus compared to solid core as some of the strands go one way and some the other, but this is pure speculation on my part.....Just enjoy the ride!

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=cables&m=12332

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever.
12-18-14: Geoffkait

How do you explain the audible differences when flipping cables made from solid core silver conductors? Surely you have experimented and have heard the differences.
.

If the signal is altered from one end of the cable to the other it is absolutely able to measured in a scope. That is what scopes excel at, measuring signals.
So we can measure a bunch of different frequencies and see what happens to the signal, flip the cable, repeat and compare.
12-18-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Forget flipping the cable end to end. I just want to know if you can hear an audible difference in audio cables, as slight as the differences might be, can you then measure the differences using a scope.

An electromagnetic wave is not current. They are completely different animals. Even their units are different. The electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons. That's why satellite radio signals move at light speed. In fact in a vacuum they can ONLY move at light speed because the speed of light is constant in the universe.

Kijanki,

Thank you for responding to my question.

12-18-14: Kijanki
Jea48, I don't know if conductor can be directional but copper oxides are semiconductors. Their orientation might be related to grain orientation - a question for metallurgist.

AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed.

Dielectric absorption is ability of dielectric to store and return energy. I'm not sure how it affects the sound but it can be shown, that charged and discharged capacitor will start building up the voltage again without any external source - just from the energy stored in dielectric and we're not talking microvolts but rather volts. Especially bad in electrolytic caps.

Jea48,

If the signal is altered from one end of the cable to the other it is absolutely able to measured in a scope. That is what scopes excel at, measuring signals.
So we can measure a bunch of different frequencies and see what happens to the signal, flip the cable, repeat and compare. Or we can use a harmonic distortion analyzer and do the same.
For a cable to sound different in different directions there must be more distortion one direction than the other.

At work we do a lot of measurements well below 10dBmicro, tiny tiny amounts of signal strength, nothing near the level of power that would move a driver.

Kijanki is doing a much better job of voicing my concerns than I am. I appreciate that.

Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while
energy flows fast

I'm not sure where you got it. Electric current is a flow of charge. Charge
moves in the wire in speed close to speed of light. It has nothing to do with
slow motion of electrons and charges they carry. It works pretty much as
stack of balls (electric charges) - you hit first one and the last one moves
instantly.

http://www.uu.edu/dept/physics/scienceguys/2001Nov.cfm

As fate would have it the audio signal is not the current. The near light speed refers to the signal not current.

Electric current is flow of electric charge, that moves near light speed in the wire. Electromagnetic wave on the outside of the cable moves at the same rate. In electronics, a signal is an electric current or electromagnetic field used to convey data from one place to another. Speed of both depends on dielectric - it is called "Velocity Factor". Electrons move at very slow rate called "Drift Velocity". Electrons are not always necessary for electric current since in the fluid ions carry electric charge.

Jea48, directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die. As least that's what I think. The directionality is independent of the velocity of the signal, I.e., the audio signal. I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. Now if you are asking me how the dielectric material affects the signal,I actually don't know. I bet it's complicated though. Wink, wink.

An experiment for those of you that use a CD transport and a separate DAC.
If your digital coax cable has a solid core center conductor try this experiment.

First listen to a good sounding CD with a strong female voice. Find a particular track you like and listen to it closely a few times. Now flip the digital cable end for end and then listen again.
One good CD that comes to mind is, Etta James "Love Songs" track 1) "At Last".

Also try a good sounding CD with a piano solo.

Post back your results.
.

Scvan - I tend to agree with your line of thinking. I think my at people can identify a 0.5 dB volume difference which is a difference of about 5% or less. If volume differences are any indicator for what the human ear can discern, then how does that compare to the tolerances that you can measure? I would guess you can measure a lot of attributes to be different in "identical" cables. I am positive that you would measure a significant difference on any cable that a majority of people could hear a significant difference with.

Ironically, the resistance can impact volume which is not necessarily an indication of quality, but the louder one is almost always the preference. Is it a better cable?

I think that a lot of cable comparisons are mixing apples and oranges because the attributes that can be measured easily are not matched to see if the other attributes make a difference.

The whole directionality thing really digs at me and does damage to our hobby.
12-18-14: Scvan

I strongly disagree.

.

.
>>>>>>>>>>

Scvan,

Did you miss this earlier post of mine?

12-18-14: Jea48

Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones.
12-17-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Can you measure the differences on a scope?
.
Jea48

Kijanki wrote,

"AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed."

As fate would have it the audio signal is not the current. The near light speed refers to the signal not current.

Jea48, that's a different question. The speed of photons in a medium is a constant. In a vacuum we know it's the speed of light. In copper the speed is some percentage of the speed of light, IIRC about 70% times c. So, I don't think the dielectric material affects the speed.

Jea48, I don't know if conductor can be directional but copper oxides are semiconductors. Their orientation might be related to grain orientation - a question for metallurgist.

AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed.

Dielectric absorption is ability of dielectric to store and return energy. I'm not sure how it affects the sound but it can be shown, that charged and discharged capacitor will start building up the voltage again without any external source - just from the energy stored in dielectric and we're not talking microvolts but rather volts. Especially bad in electrolytic caps.

Geoffkait,

No.

What I am looking for, when applying the theory how an analog signal travels down a wire, can a conductor be directional, especially in the case of solid core silver wire? For simplicity to start with, just a bare solid core silver wire without any dielectric insulation involved. Just the bare conductor suspended in free air.

Next add a PVC insulation covering to the wire. Does the PVC insulation have any effect on how the signal travels down the conductor from the source to the load?

Next instead of PVC insulation covering, make it Teflon.

How does the dielectric insulation affect the analog signal as it travels down the wire from the source to the load?
.

It is possible, and it has been done!, a cable dielectric and conductor outlay can and will and does direct a signal a particular direction, if the cable is well made, not some cable that is directional but inferior, there is alot of those out there, the difference in sound as said before is not subtle, it is huge!, when I change the direction of my Tara Labs Omega 10 inch jumpers, you can stand out side my house and hear the differnce if I flip the jumpers, very drastic I must say, I am not an engineer, do not ask me to proof it other than come and listen for your self.

Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones.
12-17-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Can you measure the differences on a scope?
.

The whole directionality thing really digs at me and does damage to our hobby.

My suspicion is that it started with pro-audio which has directional cables. They are not directional because the crystalline structure of the copper, or the way the jacket was extruded on the copper, but because they were single ended shielded cables. You would connect the shielded ended side wire to the amp side to reduce the chance for EMI.

Probably someone tried these cables on their home system and heard a difference, which happened because of the shielding, and this somehow propagated the belief that directionality is important. A couple of clever marketing guys got in a room and decided that separating their product from another required some advantage. Let's say that they should only go on one way.

I suppose the next logical step would be to say which side is up on a cable, because after all electrons have mass and we only want the good ones at the top of the wire.

Most of the hi-end manufacturers of audio cables use directionality on their products, and some are even using directionality on their network cables which is interesting because TCP broadcast require signal both directions (so is each individual wire in the Cat 6 cable directionalized before assembling the cable?).

I have never seen one IEEE paper or an AES paper on directional cables. Maybe it is a secret art form that only audio cable manufacturers know about? I could be wrong. My lab at work has some pretty long (50ft) high speed (10ghz) BNC cables for measuring EMI and those aren't directional. I think that is crystalline were important, it would be important there.

Jea48, thanks for the link to the 2010 thread. That was a wonderful trip down memory lane.

It's a shame we don't see discussions of that caliber here anymore.

Jea48, the speed of propagation depends mostly on the medium. Since the electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons, it propagates at light speed in a vacuum but somewhat less in a metal conductor. All the other things you mention are pretty irrelevant. Does that answer your question.

.....,are you a electrical engineer?
12-17-14: Audiolabyrinth

No, but I did stay at a Radisson Inn once.

I must have lead a sheltered life until 5-17-10 when I read a response by Herman to a thread here on Agon. My first thought was, what planet is this guy from?

The Thread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1274104190&openusid&zz

I believe Kijanki has a degree in electrical engineering or physics, or both.

Al, Almarg, is also an electrical engineer.

Herman used to teach the theory.
.
Jim

So if energy flows in one direction, which direction
does it flow?
+ to - or - to + ?

From source to load independently of polarity.

Thanks for quoting me...
Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones. There is no magical synergy with a speaker or amp though. The cables purpose to to move the energy (voltage) from the amp to speaker. It's a simple job. Copper, silver, aluminum, any decent conducting metal can do it, but they due it differently. (I'm referring to cables that do not have "networks" on them because that is a different discussion completely)

Electrical energy is NOT in the cable. It is stored in the magnetic field around the cable. This is ampere's law. As the voltage is reversed the electrons move in the opposite direction with the field reversing.

"...while energy flows fast"

Energy does NOT move or flow. Energy cannot move it is just a scalar number (joule). It just exists. Power is a measurement of energy / time, like a watt is a Joule/second. We never say the flow of power it is just 10 watts just like energy.

Power (in watts) = Joules/Second
= (Joules/Coulomb) x (Coulomb/Second)
= volts x amps
= number of Watts

Energy is never gain or lost it is always preserved. Energy is never directional. Thermo 101

Electricity is directional (we usually say + to - but that is a different discussion).

So electricity/ electrons/ current moves back and forth on a AC circuit, and energy does not. How can a cable be directional when the energy is not in the cable and it doesn't move, but the electrons that do move back and forth equally prefer the direction of the cable? How do they know they direction of the cable?

Awsome Jea48, very well done indeed, that was one of the best post of revelance that I have seen in a long time, are you a electrical engineer?

People that think there is some magic in audio cables which are relatively low frequency cables and really not all that high current. There isn't. It can be measured.
Unless you have an amp that is outputting a constant DC signal at above a certain voltage the current is flowing both ways.
12-16-14: Scvan

Quote from Link below

An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#cflow

I will gladly run any signal through them and measure the input vs out put on my scope under any load that person wants.
12-16-14: Scvan

First I have to ask you do you think all ICs and speaker cables sound the same? If your answer is yes, then that is the end of our conversation.

IF on the other hand you can hear a difference in ICs and speaker cables can you measure the differences heard on your scope? If not, why? From your scope measurements can you say which cable will sound the best in your audio system?
.

So if energy flows in one direction, which direction does it flow?
+ to - or - to + ?

Yes, current is flowing both ways. But the signal is only flowing in one direction. You don't listen to the current. Hel-loo!

Jea48, I think if you sift through all the words and agree that the (audio) signal through copper cable/wire propagates at near light speed what's a couple feet difference in cable length between friends? We are talking about speaker cables, no? Certainly not as much as the differences related to speaker driver off set distances, comb filter effects, you know, where the speed of the signal through air is around, what, 1100 feet per second?

Geoffkait,

Does this satisfy your fancy better?

.

Quote from link below.
ELECTRIC CURRENT IS A FLOW OF ENERGY? Wrong.
Electric current is not a flow of energy; it's a flow of charge. Charge and energy are two very different things. To separate them in your mind, see this list of differences.

An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.

Electric energy is quite different than charge. The energy traveling across an electric current is made up of waves in electromagnetic fields and it moves VERY rapidly. Electric energy moves at a completely different speed than electric current, and obviously they are two different things flowing in wires at the same time. Unless we realize that two different things are flowing, we won't understand how circuits work. Indeed, if we believe in a single flowing "electricity," we will have little grasp of basic electrical science.

In an electric circuit, the path of the electric charges is circular, while the path of the energy is not. A battery can send electric energy to a light bulb, and the bulb changes electrical energy into light. The energy does not flow back to the battery again. At the same time, the electric current is different; it is a very slow circular flow, and the electric charges flow through the light bulb filament and all of them flow back out again. They return to the battery.

Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow.
End of quote

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#cflow

http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html

>>>>>>

Quote from link below.
The speed at which energy or signals travel down a cable is actually the speed of the electromagnetic wave, not the movement of electrons. Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air."
End of quote

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity


"Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material."

Geoffkait,

Please explain how this would affect an audio cable. The wire as well as the type of insulation covering around it. How about the construction of the cable. Example, braided, twisted, whatever.

>>

>http://science.uniserve.edu.au/school/curric/stage6/phys/stw2002/sefton.pdf

Anyone want to let me borrow their directional cables?
I will gladly run any signal through them and measure the input vs out put on my scope under any load that person wants. I will then run it backwards and we can see what happens.
Maybe the quality of my scopes measurement cables are good enough to measure the delicacy of an audio frequency. The probe does lose a couple of dB performance at 500Mhz, so it is probably not good enough, so nevermind.

People that think there is some magic in audio cables which are relatively low frequency cables and really not all that high current. There isn't. It can be measured.
Unless you have an amp that is outputting a constant DC signal at above a certain voltage the current is flowing both ways. If you do have an amp like that, you will need to buy new speakers, because speakers don't like DC signals.

Well, whoever wrote it most likely never saw the inside of a physics book. Maybe any book.

We have no clue if the person called "Elizabeth" authored this stuff, or she (?) simply pasted it from somewhere.

You haven't seen her in weeks? How about six months? Time goes by fast when you're having fun.

Speaking of Elizabeth, any one seen her lately? I use several of the same forums as she does and haven't seen her post in weeks.

As it turns out Elizabeth is an English major. Does anyone see the irony?

I assure you that when I reverse my directional Tara labs Omega Top of the line Jumpers that go from my bottom post to top post of my bi-amp speakers, the difference is in NO WAY SUBTLE!, likly, it is the way the speakers are designed?, I do know for a fact the the conductor out lay in these jumpers are specific going to one direction, I can see that looking at the jumpers with my own eyes, if you have cables that sound the same that are directional, get rid of them please, they are inferrior cables!

I have to laugh at this thread. There is no net displacement of electrons in speaker cables, they move back and forth to reverse the polarity, it's AC current. They cetainly don't flow like water through a hose. Directionality is a marketing gimmick for non-engineers, and we love and we buy it because we need to BELIEVE!

This is the religion of Audiophilism.
12-15-14: Stevecham

.

Quote
01-18-11: Elizabeth
Think of it like a wave.
If you threw a rock into a pond, the splash makes waves. The water is only moving up and down as the wave passes bye, only a little water is moved horizontally when the stone hits, the 'wave' is the motion transmitted without the water going anywhere.
Similar thing with electrical waves in a wire. The current in a music signal is a form of alternating current(a wave movement, where Direct Current is like a straight line movement), so the electrons pretty much stay in the same place in alternating current. Just the waveform moves down the wire.
The waveforms can be extremely complex. So if the music of an orchestra is being transmitted, the wave form of the sound of each instrument is added together and all of them, together, are travelling in a very complex wave through the wires to where they are going.
Electrical current in a wire is a complex phenomonon. The frequency of the waveform determines how the wave travels. The higher the frquency, the more the wave stays on the top surfaces of the wire. (each strand if multi-stranded) So the wave passes down the wire mostly on the surface, with varying degrees of penetration into the wire depending on the frequency. So wire can make a difference in how well the signal (the waveform) travels without getting messed up. The electrical energy also generates a field around the wire, and that field can affect, or be affected by it's surroundings. So good insulation on the wire also helps the waveform to reman intact.
Badly made wires can distort the waveform by slowing down some frequencies of the waveform slightly, and insulation can also affect the waveform. because as the waveform passes, it is affected by the insulation, and also the surface of the wire. (if the wire is dirty, or corroded, or is not pure, it interferes with the signal too)
All of those 'errors' in the transfer of the signal down the wire as a waveform are extremely tiny, so some folks say wire is wire, and other sayy different wires change the way the music sounds, because the wires affect the wavefoms a tiny (but significant bit)
Hope this helps.
Elizabeth (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

01-18-11: Elizabeth
Added: the wave of different frequencies moves down the wire at the same speed. just the waveform of each frequency is a different shape, added together and constantly changing shape of waves as the multiple parts have different fequencies in the waveform. But the signal all gets to the end of the wire at basically the same time.
(only the tiny effect of the depth of the frequency of the wave into the wire affects the parts a very very tiny bit)
I tried to both explain what is happening in simple terms, and satisfy the demands of the others who will read this and protest various shortcomings in my explaination.
The science of waves/wires/electrons/music.. is very simple AND complicated at the same time. But the simple fact that we can enjoy the music is really great.
Elizabeth (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
End of quote.

>http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1295324474&openfrom&1&4#1

But power is delivered only one direction thru electromagnetic field. Who said anything about displacement of electrons?

I have to laugh at this thread. There is no net displacement of electrons in speaker cables, they move back and forth to reverse the polarity, it's AC current. They cetainly don't flow like water through a hose. Directionality is a marketing gimmick for non-engineers, and we love and we buy it because we need to BELIEVE!

This is the religion of Audiophilism.

wolf_Garcia, I thought the same as you, now, I have a different perspective, looking at the over load of product's in Stereophile, The Absolute sound, and here on Audiogon, I think the High-end audio industry compaired to the late 90's is hugely live and well.

I think it's a shame more women aren't into this hobby, or more anybody actually.

Your correct Wolf_Garcia, my ear is more trained than her's, you know how it is, I am impressed that she like's the high-end, also, you should know, she is a very good musician and top flight singer that would impress many, that would explain that she really has an ear that is more trained than most audiophile's to say the least.

The "women hear better than men" comments refer to hearing range which is likely better than many men might have. However, the sound QUALITY of a hifi rig to the trained and experienced ear is a different thing and is subject to the tastes (or lack of) or biases obtained by the discerning "active" listener. Get your wifey-poo to master a recording at a studio or mix a live concert and I'll be impressed, otherwise the opinions of the disengaged partner passing through the room are generally a minor part of the scenario.

Different tubes, different companies, active devices, of course there is a difference. And as they break in there is a difference. Real reasons, and not all unmeasureable.
12-09-14: Omsed

Well apparently I did not make myself clear, sorry about that.
Same manufacture, same tube construction, just different years of manufacturing. Example, the Amperex PQ white label 6922 vs. the later manufactured Amperex orange label PQ 6922 tube. They do not sound the same.

The Seimens 1960s all grey plate CCa tube vs. the later manufactured 1970s CCa tube. They definitely do not sound the same.

Can the differences of the same manufactured tube be measured with today’s test equipment? Can the differences be heard by the human ear? Oh you bet. But maybe not by all human ears....

Cable direction? Totally different proposition.

Maybe to your ears heard on your audio system.
But you should not try to push your beliefs and your limited ability to hear any difference on everyone else.

....

and I suppose after moving them they have to "break in" again.

Well that could depend on how the cable was constructed/manufactured and the type of dielectric materials used in the construction of the cable.
.

My former wife only loved pop. Pop isn't music for me so had to pop her out:-)
Current one's curious to dig my entire collection.

Omsed wrote,

"I suppose shining lights on the cables makes you hear different resutls, and I suppose after moving them they have to "break in" again."

Actually, those are two things I think are true. Thanks for reminding me.

Different tubes, different companies, active devices, of course there is a difference. And as they break in there is a difference. Real reasons, and not all unmeasureable.

Different cable designs? Absolutely, sound different, measure different, obvious to hear.

Cable direction? Totally different proposition.

I suppose shining lights on the cables makes you hear different resutls, and I suppose after moving them they have to "break in" again.