Directional speaker cables - switching direction

I can't imagine a scenario where the break-in would matter or how direction would matter in a simple cable design such as basic monster cable or my 10 AWG Blue Jeans Cables.
Mceljo

One way to find out for sure, flip your 10 AWG Blue Jeans Cables end for end and listen for any difference. Post back your results.

And then flip them back and forth at least two and preferably three or more times, not only to verify that your perceptions are consistent, but that the perceived difference (if any) is not the result of an extraneous variable (for example, changes in contact integrity, changes in AC line voltage or noise conditions, changes in room temperature or humidity, etc).

Hi Al,

As for contact integrity I would suggest cleaning the contacts before swapping the cables end for end and then listening for a while to get used to any differences in sound from the system. This should establish a common base line for the test. Then flip the cables end for end. Listen to the same music that listened to before flipping the cables.
Room environment should not change in just a couple of hours or so, of the same day, for the listening test.
Jim

Jea, it can't be proven as far as I know and I'm interested to know how you could possibly have construed anything I've said to have been in support of the directionality or cable burn-in concepts. Please go back and read the discussion; I think it's pretty obvious that I clearly question the validity of cable direction and its influence on sound quality.
12-04-14: Broadstone

Broadstone,

Thanks for the clarification. I apparently misunderstood this paragraph of your earlier post.

Because I'm not secure in my conclusion that the direction issue is an imaginary one, I'm going to reinstall a pair of Silver Sonic cables that I had used in another setup in the past. These have no arrows imprinted on them and I know which direction the break-in occurred because there are spades on one end and bananas on the other and have thousands of hours on them. If the "settling in" process will be starting over, that's OK; these new speakers will take awhile also.
12-04-14: Broadstone

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just make sure it should and will sound different and it will. if you do contrary, it won't.
there certainly things that will sound different believe it or not as well.
12-09-14: Czarivey

Ain't that the truth!

To think of all the money I wasted about 8 years ago buying several pairs of NOS early 1960s white label Amperex PQ 6922 and 7308 tubes. Not to mention Siemens early 1960s all grey plate CCa and E188CC tubes. It was all in my head the differences that I heard from the stock 6922 Sovtek tubes that came with the preamp. Funny thing though, I still remember the preamp sounding like a solid state preamp with the stock Sovtek tubes installed.

Measurable test results showing the differences in perceived sound of vintage 1960s 6922/E88CC, and 7308/E188CC Amperex, Siemens, and Telefunken tubes vs. current production EH or Sovtek tubes? Well....
.

Jea48

I have proved it as it is a true fact, this burn in thing that is. I hear the difference, but for folks like you who think we folks are hearing things we want to hear, I now have absolute proof.
12-04-14: Grannyring

Grannyring,

LOL, folks like me huh, I suggest you check the archives and read some of my posts here on Agon regarding cable burn-in and cable directionality.
Jim

Different tubes, different companies, active devices, of course there is a difference. And as they break in there is a difference. Real reasons, and not all unmeasureable.
12-09-14: Omsed

Well apparently I did not make myself clear, sorry about that.
Same manufacture, same tube construction, just different years of manufacturing. Example, the Amperex PQ white label 6922 vs. the later manufactured Amperex orange label PQ 6922 tube. They do not sound the same.

The Seimens 1960s all grey plate CCa tube vs. the later manufactured 1970s CCa tube. They definitely do not sound the same.

Can the differences of the same manufactured tube be measured with today’s test equipment? Can the differences be heard by the human ear? Oh you bet. But maybe not by all human ears....

Cable direction? Totally different proposition.

Maybe to your ears heard on your audio system.
But you should not try to push your beliefs and your limited ability to hear any difference on everyone else.

....

and I suppose after moving them they have to "break in" again.

Well that could depend on how the cable was constructed/manufactured and the type of dielectric materials used in the construction of the cable.
.

I have to laugh at this thread. There is no net displacement of electrons in speaker cables, they move back and forth to reverse the polarity, it's AC current. They cetainly don't flow like water through a hose. Directionality is a marketing gimmick for non-engineers, and we love and we buy it because we need to BELIEVE!

This is the religion of Audiophilism.
12-15-14: Stevecham

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Quote
01-18-11: Elizabeth
Think of it like a wave.
If you threw a rock into a pond, the splash makes waves. The water is only moving up and down as the wave passes bye, only a little water is moved horizontally when the stone hits, the 'wave' is the motion transmitted without the water going anywhere.
Similar thing with electrical waves in a wire. The current in a music signal is a form of alternating current(a wave movement, where Direct Current is like a straight line movement), so the electrons pretty much stay in the same place in alternating current. Just the waveform moves down the wire.
The waveforms can be extremely complex. So if the music of an orchestra is being transmitted, the wave form of the sound of each instrument is added together and all of them, together, are travelling in a very complex wave through the wires to where they are going.
Electrical current in a wire is a complex phenomonon. The frequency of the waveform determines how the wave travels. The higher the frquency, the more the wave stays on the top surfaces of the wire. (each strand if multi-stranded) So the wave passes down the wire mostly on the surface, with varying degrees of penetration into the wire depending on the frequency. So wire can make a difference in how well the signal (the waveform) travels without getting messed up. The electrical energy also generates a field around the wire, and that field can affect, or be affected by it's surroundings. So good insulation on the wire also helps the waveform to reman intact.
Badly made wires can distort the waveform by slowing down some frequencies of the waveform slightly, and insulation can also affect the waveform. because as the waveform passes, it is affected by the insulation, and also the surface of the wire. (if the wire is dirty, or corroded, or is not pure, it interferes with the signal too)
All of those 'errors' in the transfer of the signal down the wire as a waveform are extremely tiny, so some folks say wire is wire, and other sayy different wires change the way the music sounds, because the wires affect the wavefoms a tiny (but significant bit)
Hope this helps.
Elizabeth (Threads | Answers | This Thread)

01-18-11: Elizabeth
Added: the wave of different frequencies moves down the wire at the same speed. just the waveform of each frequency is a different shape, added together and constantly changing shape of waves as the multiple parts have different fequencies in the waveform. But the signal all gets to the end of the wire at basically the same time.
(only the tiny effect of the depth of the frequency of the wave into the wire affects the parts a very very tiny bit)
I tried to both explain what is happening in simple terms, and satisfy the demands of the others who will read this and protest various shortcomings in my explaination.
The science of waves/wires/electrons/music.. is very simple AND complicated at the same time. But the simple fact that we can enjoy the music is really great.
Elizabeth (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
End of quote.

>http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1295324474&openfrom&1&4#1

Geoffkait,

Does this satisfy your fancy better?

.

Quote from link below.
ELECTRIC CURRENT IS A FLOW OF ENERGY? Wrong.
Electric current is not a flow of energy; it's a flow of charge. Charge and energy are two very different things. To separate them in your mind, see this list of differences.

An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.

Electric energy is quite different than charge. The energy traveling across an electric current is made up of waves in electromagnetic fields and it moves VERY rapidly. Electric energy moves at a completely different speed than electric current, and obviously they are two different things flowing in wires at the same time. Unless we realize that two different things are flowing, we won't understand how circuits work. Indeed, if we believe in a single flowing "electricity," we will have little grasp of basic electrical science.

In an electric circuit, the path of the electric charges is circular, while the path of the energy is not. A battery can send electric energy to a light bulb, and the bulb changes electrical energy into light. The energy does not flow back to the battery again. At the same time, the electric current is different; it is a very slow circular flow, and the electric charges flow through the light bulb filament and all of them flow back out again. They return to the battery.

Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow.
End of quote

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#cflow

http://amasci.com/miscon/whatis.html

>>>>>>

Quote from link below.
The speed at which energy or signals travel down a cable is actually the speed of the electromagnetic wave, not the movement of electrons. Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air."
End of quote

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity


"Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material."

Geoffkait,

Please explain how this would affect an audio cable. The wire as well as the type of insulation covering around it. How about the construction of the cable. Example, braided, twisted, whatever.

>>

>http://science.uniserve.edu.au/school/curric/stage6/phys/stw2002/sefton.pdf

People that think there is some magic in audio cables which are relatively low frequency cables and really not all that high current. There isn't. It can be measured.
Unless you have an amp that is outputting a constant DC signal at above a certain voltage the current is flowing both ways.
12-16-14: Scvan

Quote from Link below

An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.

http://amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#cflow

I will gladly run any signal through them and measure the input vs out put on my scope under any load that person wants.
12-16-14: Scvan

First I have to ask you do you think all ICs and speaker cables sound the same? If your answer is yes, then that is the end of our conversation.

IF on the other hand you can hear a difference in ICs and speaker cables can you measure the differences heard on your scope? If not, why? From your scope measurements can you say which cable will sound the best in your audio system?
.

.....,are you a electrical engineer?
12-17-14: Audiolabyrinth

No, but I did stay at a Radisson Inn once.

I must have lead a sheltered life until 5-17-10 when I read a response by Herman to a thread here on Agon. My first thought was, what planet is this guy from?

The Thread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1274104190&openusid&zz

I believe Kijanki has a degree in electrical engineering or physics, or both.

Al, Almarg, is also an electrical engineer.

Herman used to teach the theory.
.
Jim

The whole directionality thing really digs at me and does damage to our hobby.
12-18-14: Scvan

I strongly disagree.

.

.
>>>>>>>>>>

Scvan,

Did you miss this earlier post of mine?

12-18-14: Jea48

Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones.
12-17-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Can you measure the differences on a scope?
.
Jea48

Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones.
12-17-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Can you measure the differences on a scope?
.

Geoffkait,

No.

What I am looking for, when applying the theory how an analog signal travels down a wire, can a conductor be directional, especially in the case of solid core silver wire? For simplicity to start with, just a bare solid core silver wire without any dielectric insulation involved. Just the bare conductor suspended in free air.

Next add a PVC insulation covering to the wire. Does the PVC insulation have any effect on how the signal travels down the conductor from the source to the load?

Next instead of PVC insulation covering, make it Teflon.

How does the dielectric insulation affect the analog signal as it travels down the wire from the source to the load?
.

An experiment for those of you that use a CD transport and a separate DAC.
If your digital coax cable has a solid core center conductor try this experiment.

First listen to a good sounding CD with a strong female voice. Find a particular track you like and listen to it closely a few times. Now flip the digital cable end for end and then listen again.
One good CD that comes to mind is, Etta James "Love Songs" track 1) "At Last".

Also try a good sounding CD with a piano solo.

Post back your results.
.

Kijanki,

Thank you for responding to my question.

12-18-14: Kijanki
Jea48, I don't know if conductor can be directional but copper oxides are semiconductors. Their orientation might be related to grain orientation - a question for metallurgist.

AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed.

Dielectric absorption is ability of dielectric to store and return energy. I'm not sure how it affects the sound but it can be shown, that charged and discharged capacitor will start building up the voltage again without any external source - just from the energy stored in dielectric and we're not talking microvolts but rather volts. Especially bad in electrolytic caps.

If the signal is altered from one end of the cable to the other it is absolutely able to measured in a scope. That is what scopes excel at, measuring signals.
So we can measure a bunch of different frequencies and see what happens to the signal, flip the cable, repeat and compare.
12-18-14: Scvan

Scvan,

Forget flipping the cable end to end. I just want to know if you can hear an audible difference in audio cables, as slight as the differences might be, can you then measure the differences using a scope.

Jea48, directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die. As least that's what I think. The directionality is independent of the velocity of the signal, I.e., the audio signal. I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. Now if you are asking me how the dielectric material affects the signal,I actually don't know. I bet it's complicated though. Wink, wink.
12-18-14: Geoffkait

Geoffkait,

Thanks for the response.

directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die.

That's what the likes of Bill Lowe of Audioquest and the late Bob Crump preached for years. There are countless others in the same camp as you know that preach the same theory. And until someone comes up with a better explanation that's good enough for me.

Here is a post of the late Bob Crump's.

◾Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... rcrump 06:45:41 09/30/00 (11)

In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... posted by Greg R. on September 29, 2000 at 19:47:48:


Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....

Here is another post of Bob's from the same thread.

◾Re: Is stranded core directional also? rcrump 03:59:51 10/02/00 (2)

In Reply to: Re: Is stranded core directional also? posted by steve b on October 01, 2000 at 18:05:36:


Steve, I don't want to speculate why wire is directional, but it is as poor Greg has found in a later post....I spent about three months playing with such things before I released my commercial interconnects and speaker wire and went about as crazy as Greg is going right now and can't tell you how much wire I trashed as I forgot to mark it with some masking take as I took it off the spool....Directionality in wire will be measured some day as it appears to be an FM distortion and wandering pianos (small phase changes with frequency) will be a thing of the past. Until then use your ears to discern directionality of wire. Stranded wire likely suffers from a lack of focus compared to solid core as some of the strands go one way and some the other, but this is pure speculation on my part.....Just enjoy the ride!

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=cables&m=12332

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever.
12-18-14: Geoffkait

How do you explain the audible differences when flipping cables made from solid core silver conductors? Surely you have experimented and have heard the differences.
.

The revelation that digital interconnects and their direction can introduce large differences in measured jitter was quite a shock. The differences heard between digital interconnects—and in their directionality—have now been substantiated by measurement

.
>http://www.stereophile.com/content/transport-delight-cd-transport-jitter-page-9


The Why? Who cares.... The point is, there was a difference. A measurable difference.
.

Many people believe that we should be able to determine that cables are not directional if they present the same measurement from both sides hence two cables with the same measurements should sound identical. I don't believe this to be true. I seriously doubt that one can measure any difference between oxygen free copper (thousands of crystals) or zero crystal copper that comes from continuous casting process - a slow cooling in heated molds to avoid crystallization. Best instruments wouldn't be able to measure this but many claims it makes a difference. Would I be able to tell the difference chopping off 3' of one of the speaker cables - most likely not but my cables are very neutral sounding. Perhaps audio possesses a little bit of black magic?
12-19-14: Kijanki

I agree.

Existing technology test equipment cannot measure the differences.... That does not mean they do not exist though.
But the trained human ear can hear the differences.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Existing technology.....

Posted by Charles Hansen (M) on January 16, 2010 at 17:26:35
In Reply to: Ping, Charles Hansen posted by jea48 on January 16, 2010 at 15:32:09:

Finally, it should be noted that we *do* orient all of our axial-leaded plastic film capacitors. When the capacitor is wound, one of the leads will be connected to the outside conductor and the other lead will be connected to the inside conductor. Orienting the capacitor in the circuit properly makes a difference in the sound quality.

It took us a while to figure out how, but we built a machine that allows us to tell which end of the capacitor is which. It is a pain, but we sort every single capacitor and mark it for the correct orientation at each point in the circuit. If we had to *listen* to every capacitor to determine the correct polarity, I don't think anybody could afford to buy our products...

>http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/55/558658.html

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Jim

Sorry guys about the bad link in my last post above.
Try this one.

Charles Hansen
.

Here is the Link for the Sterophile/transport Delight article I quoted earlier.
.
For some strange reason when I paste the link between the [url ]....[/url] brackets the web site is not displayed.

I want to clarify something. I honestly believe that some people hear a difference in the directionality of cables. I just do not feel there is a scientific explanation for this. This a belief thing.
I find that the only evidence that has been submitted is evidence from people that could make money off of cables, like cable manufacturers.
12-19-14: Scvan

"I find that the only evidence that has been submitted is evidence from people that could make money off of cables, like cable manufacturers."

Not true.

Just spend some time searching the archives on the subject on Cable Asylum and Tweakers' Asylum.

Scvan,

Your problem is unless the differences can be measured by existing test equipment the differences cannot exist.

You posted on this thread that cable differences can be heard when connected to an audio system. Yet you have failed to say one way or the other the differences can be measured by any test equipment that exists today. If the differences cannot be measured then the differences do not exist and therefore are merely manufactured snake oil.

Geoffkait,

You really need to brush up on your reading and comprehension skills of what you have read.
.

Mceljo,

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Quote from John Curl Interview.
Page 15/18 and 16/18.

"I was working with Noel Lee and a company
called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one
microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could 'hear the caps' and I
thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or
tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my
Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about?
Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that
the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all
over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in
reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to
find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a
measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very
obvious to everybody."
End of quote.
http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf
.

Jea48 - interesting quote. I thought it was interesting that they found a way to measure what they were hearing. I would guess that they used that measurement for future designs. What they heard could be measured
12-26-14: Mceljo

Ya, "they" found a way. Just remember why "they" looked for a way in the first place.

As long as manufactures put arrows on cables to show signal flow direction and say try the cables in both directions for what sounds best in my system I will follow their directions. It's nice to know the theory why but in the end all I care about is how the cable affects the sound of my audio system.

If somebody is hell bent on proving the theory why cables are directional then that person should by all means find a way to measure the differences.

Audiolabyrinth,

Thank you for your kind words,

Happy holidays,
Jim