Some time ago I started a thread regarding speaker wire directionality and my inability to understand how it could have any affect on sound quality. The question was inspired by the fact that, after quite a few years using them with my Martin Logan Odysseys, I discovered that the cables (Straightwire Octave 2) had arrows printed on them. Not surprisingly the opinions expressed were pretty strong on both sides of the argument but those supporting directionality were the most vociferous and in greater numbers, one to the point of being downright insulting. In no case, though, was an explanation given by those supporting the importance of cable direction for how this phenomenon occurs except that it should be obvious that when a cable is broken in in one direction only someone with an uneducated ear would be unable to discern the difference.
Even though I still don't get it I'm not taking the position that there is no validity to the directional claim; if there truly is I just don't understand how. This leads me to my two part question. I haven't been using the Octaves for a few years but now, because of cable length issues, I want to put them back in my system partly to avoid the cost of new quality cables.
IF, then, the directionality theory IS valid and I don't recall which way the arrows originally pointed or which direction they were "broken in" do those in support of directionality think I should install them with the arrows pointing toward the speakers
Anyone want to let me borrow their directional cables? I will gladly run any signal through them and measure the input vs out put on my scope under any load that person wants. I will then run it backwards and we can see what happens. Maybe the quality of my scopes measurement cables are good enough to measure the delicacy of an audio frequency. The probe does lose a couple of dB performance at 500Mhz, so it is probably not good enough, so nevermind.
People that think there is some magic in audio cables which are relatively low frequency cables and really not all that high current. There isn't. It can be measured. Unless you have an amp that is outputting a constant DC signal at above a certain voltage the current is flowing both ways. If you do have an amp like that, you will need to buy new speakers, because speakers don't like DC signals.
Quote from link below. ELECTRIC CURRENT IS A FLOW OF ENERGY? Wrong. Electric current is not a flow of energy; it's a flow of charge. Charge and energy are two very different things. To separate them in your mind, see this list of differences.
An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.
Electric energy is quite different than charge. The energy traveling across an electric current is made up of waves in electromagnetic fields and it moves VERY rapidly. Electric energy moves at a completely different speed than electric current, and obviously they are two different things flowing in wires at the same time. Unless we realize that two different things are flowing, we won't understand how circuits work. Indeed, if we believe in a single flowing "electricity," we will have little grasp of basic electrical science.
In an electric circuit, the path of the electric charges is circular, while the path of the energy is not. A battery can send electric energy to a light bulb, and the bulb changes electrical energy into light. The energy does not flow back to the battery again. At the same time, the electric current is different; it is a very slow circular flow, and the electric charges flow through the light bulb filament and all of them flow back out again. They return to the battery.
Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow. End of quote
Quote from link below. The speed at which energy or signals travel down a cable is actually the speed of the electromagnetic wave, not the movement of electrons. Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air." End of quote
"Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material."
Geoffkait,
Please explain how this would affect an audio cable. The wire as well as the type of insulation covering around it. How about the construction of the cable. Example, braided, twisted, whatever.
Jea48, I think if you sift through all the words and agree that the (audio) signal through copper cable/wire propagates at near light speed what's a couple feet difference in cable length between friends? We are talking about speaker cables, no? Certainly not as much as the differences related to speaker driver off set distances, comb filter effects, you know, where the speed of the signal through air is around, what, 1100 feet per second?
People that think there is some magic in audio cables which are relatively low frequency cables and really not all that high current. There isn't. It can be measured. Unless you have an amp that is outputting a constant DC signal at above a certain voltage the current is flowing both ways. 12-16-14: Scvan
Quote from Link below
An electric current is a flowing motion of charged particles, and the particles do not carry energy along with them as they move. A current is defined as a flow of charge by I=Q/T; amperes are coulombs of charge flowing per unit time. The term "Electric Current" means the same thing as "charge flow." Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast. Also, during AC alternating current the charges move slightly back and forth while the energy moves rapidly forward.
I will gladly run any signal through them and measure the input vs out put on my scope under any load that person wants. 12-16-14: Scvan
First I have to ask you do you think all ICs and speaker cables sound the same? If your answer is yes, then that is the end of our conversation.
IF on the other hand you can hear a difference in ICs and speaker cables can you measure the differences heard on your scope? If not, why? From your scope measurements can you say which cable will sound the best in your audio system? .
Thanks for quoting me... Sure cables can sound different. Crappy ones sound different from good ones. There is no magical synergy with a speaker or amp though. The cables purpose to to move the energy (voltage) from the amp to speaker. It's a simple job. Copper, silver, aluminum, any decent conducting metal can do it, but they due it differently. (I'm referring to cables that do not have "networks" on them because that is a different discussion completely)
Electrical energy is NOT in the cable. It is stored in the magnetic field around the cable. This is ampere's law. As the voltage is reversed the electrons move in the opposite direction with the field reversing.
"...while energy flows fast"
Energy does NOT move or flow. Energy cannot move it is just a scalar number (joule). It just exists. Power is a measurement of energy / time, like a watt is a Joule/second. We never say the flow of power it is just 10 watts just like energy.
Power (in watts) = Joules/Second = (Joules/Coulomb) x (Coulomb/Second) = volts x amps = number of Watts
Energy is never gain or lost it is always preserved. Energy is never directional. Thermo 101
Electricity is directional (we usually say + to - but that is a different discussion).
So electricity/ electrons/ current moves back and forth on a AC circuit, and energy does not. How can a cable be directional when the energy is not in the cable and it doesn't move, but the electrons that do move back and forth equally prefer the direction of the cable? How do they know they direction of the cable?
.....,are you a electrical engineer? 12-17-14: Audiolabyrinth
No, but I did stay at a Radisson Inn once.
I must have lead a sheltered life until 5-17-10 when I read a response by Herman to a thread here on Agon. My first thought was, what planet is this guy from?
Jea48, the speed of propagation depends mostly on the medium. Since the electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons, it propagates at light speed in a vacuum but somewhat less in a metal conductor. All the other things you mention are pretty irrelevant. Does that answer your question.
The whole directionality thing really digs at me and does damage to our hobby.
My suspicion is that it started with pro-audio which has directional cables. They are not directional because the crystalline structure of the copper, or the way the jacket was extruded on the copper, but because they were single ended shielded cables. You would connect the shielded ended side wire to the amp side to reduce the chance for EMI.
Probably someone tried these cables on their home system and heard a difference, which happened because of the shielding, and this somehow propagated the belief that directionality is important. A couple of clever marketing guys got in a room and decided that separating their product from another required some advantage. Let's say that they should only go on one way.
I suppose the next logical step would be to say which side is up on a cable, because after all electrons have mass and we only want the good ones at the top of the wire.
Most of the hi-end manufacturers of audio cables use directionality on their products, and some are even using directionality on their network cables which is interesting because TCP broadcast require signal both directions (so is each individual wire in the Cat 6 cable directionalized before assembling the cable?).
I have never seen one IEEE paper or an AES paper on directional cables. Maybe it is a secret art form that only audio cable manufacturers know about? I could be wrong. My lab at work has some pretty long (50ft) high speed (10ghz) BNC cables for measuring EMI and those aren't directional. I think that is crystalline were important, it would be important there.
It is possible, and it has been done!, a cable dielectric and conductor outlay can and will and does direct a signal a particular direction, if the cable is well made, not some cable that is directional but inferior, there is alot of those out there, the difference in sound as said before is not subtle, it is huge!, when I change the direction of my Tara Labs Omega 10 inch jumpers, you can stand out side my house and hear the differnce if I flip the jumpers, very drastic I must say, I am not an engineer, do not ask me to proof it other than come and listen for your self.
What I am looking for, when applying the theory how an analog signal travels down a wire, can a conductor be directional, especially in the case of solid core silver wire? For simplicity to start with, just a bare solid core silver wire without any dielectric insulation involved. Just the bare conductor suspended in free air.
Next add a PVC insulation covering to the wire. Does the PVC insulation have any effect on how the signal travels down the conductor from the source to the load?
Next instead of PVC insulation covering, make it Teflon.
How does the dielectric insulation affect the analog signal as it travels down the wire from the source to the load? .
Jea48, I don't know if conductor can be directional but copper oxides are semiconductors. Their orientation might be related to grain orientation - a question for metallurgist.
AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed.
Dielectric absorption is ability of dielectric to store and return energy. I'm not sure how it affects the sound but it can be shown, that charged and discharged capacitor will start building up the voltage again without any external source - just from the energy stored in dielectric and we're not talking microvolts but rather volts. Especially bad in electrolytic caps.
Jea48, that's a different question. The speed of photons in a medium is a constant. In a vacuum we know it's the speed of light. In copper the speed is some percentage of the speed of light, IIRC about 70% times c. So, I don't think the dielectric material affects the speed.
"AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed."
As fate would have it the audio signal is not the current. The near light speed refers to the signal not current.
Scvan - I tend to agree with your line of thinking. I think my at people can identify a 0.5 dB volume difference which is a difference of about 5% or less. If volume differences are any indicator for what the human ear can discern, then how does that compare to the tolerances that you can measure? I would guess you can measure a lot of attributes to be different in "identical" cables. I am positive that you would measure a significant difference on any cable that a majority of people could hear a significant difference with.
Ironically, the resistance can impact volume which is not necessarily an indication of quality, but the louder one is almost always the preference. Is it a better cable?
I think that a lot of cable comparisons are mixing apples and oranges because the attributes that can be measured easily are not matched to see if the other attributes make a difference.
An experiment for those of you that use a CD transport and a separate DAC. If your digital coax cable has a solid core center conductor try this experiment.
First listen to a good sounding CD with a strong female voice. Find a particular track you like and listen to it closely a few times. Now flip the digital cable end for end and then listen again. One good CD that comes to mind is, Etta James "Love Songs" track 1) "At Last".
Jea48, directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die. As least that's what I think. The directionality is independent of the velocity of the signal, I.e., the audio signal. I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. Now if you are asking me how the dielectric material affects the signal,I actually don't know. I bet it's complicated though. Wink, wink.
As fate would have it the audio signal is not the current. The near light speed refers to the signal not current.
Electric current is flow of electric charge, that moves near light speed in the wire. Electromagnetic wave on the outside of the cable moves at the same rate. In electronics, a signal is an electric current or electromagnetic field used to convey data from one place to another. Speed of both depends on dielectric - it is called "Velocity Factor". Electrons move at very slow rate called "Drift Velocity". Electrons are not always necessary for electric current since in the fluid ions carry electric charge.
Electric current is a very slow flow of charges, while energy flows fast
I'm not sure where you got it. Electric current is a flow of charge. Charge moves in the wire in speed close to speed of light. It has nothing to do with slow motion of electrons and charges they carry. It works pretty much as stack of balls (electric charges) - you hit first one and the last one moves instantly.
If the signal is altered from one end of the cable to the other it is absolutely able to measured in a scope. That is what scopes excel at, measuring signals. So we can measure a bunch of different frequencies and see what happens to the signal, flip the cable, repeat and compare. Or we can use a harmonic distortion analyzer and do the same. For a cable to sound different in different directions there must be more distortion one direction than the other.
At work we do a lot of measurements well below 10dBmicro, tiny tiny amounts of signal strength, nothing near the level of power that would move a driver.
Kijanki is doing a much better job of voicing my concerns than I am. I appreciate that.
12-18-14: Kijanki Jea48, I don't know if conductor can be directional but copper oxides are semiconductors. Their orientation might be related to grain orientation - a question for metallurgist.
AFAIK dielectric affects speed of current. This speed is not a light speed but closer to 60% of it (5ns/m). I believe this speed is inversely proportional to square root of dielectric constant. Teflon dielectric offers the highest speed up to 85% of the light-speed.
Dielectric absorption is ability of dielectric to store and return energy. I'm not sure how it affects the sound but it can be shown, that charged and discharged capacitor will start building up the voltage again without any external source - just from the energy stored in dielectric and we're not talking microvolts but rather volts. Especially bad in electrolytic caps.
An electromagnetic wave is not current. They are completely different animals. Even their units are different. The electromagnetic wave is comprised of photons. That's why satellite radio signals move at light speed. In fact in a vacuum they can ONLY move at light speed because the speed of light is constant in the universe.
If the signal is altered from one end of the cable to the other it is absolutely able to measured in a scope. That is what scopes excel at, measuring signals. So we can measure a bunch of different frequencies and see what happens to the signal, flip the cable, repeat and compare. 12-18-14: Scvan
Scvan,
Forget flipping the cable end to end. I just want to know if you can hear an audible difference in audio cables, as slight as the differences might be, can you then measure the differences using a scope.
Jea48, directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die. As least that's what I think. The directionality is independent of the velocity of the signal, I.e., the audio signal. I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. Now if you are asking me how the dielectric material affects the signal,I actually don't know. I bet it's complicated though. Wink, wink. 12-18-14: Geoffkait
Geoffkait,
Thanks for the response.
directionality of a metal conductor is produced by the orientation of the crystal structure as it is pulled through the final die.
That's what the likes of Bill Lowe of Audioquest and the late Bob Crump preached for years. There are countless others in the same camp as you know that preach the same theory. And until someone comes up with a better explanation that's good enough for me.
In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I don't know, but... posted by Greg R. on September 29, 2000 at 19:47:48:
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation. If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
Here is another post of Bob's from the same thread.
◾Re: Is stranded core directional also? rcrump 03:59:51 10/02/00 (2)
In Reply to: Re: Is stranded core directional also? posted by steve b on October 01, 2000 at 18:05:36:
Steve, I don't want to speculate why wire is directional, but it is as poor Greg has found in a later post....I spent about three months playing with such things before I released my commercial interconnects and speaker wire and went about as crazy as Greg is going right now and can't tell you how much wire I trashed as I forgot to mark it with some masking take as I took it off the spool....Directionality in wire will be measured some day as it appears to be an FM distortion and wandering pianos (small phase changes with frequency) will be a thing of the past. Until then use your ears to discern directionality of wire. Stranded wire likely suffers from a lack of focus compared to solid core as some of the strands go one way and some the other, but this is pure speculation on my part.....Just enjoy the ride!
I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever. 12-18-14: Geoffkait
How do you explain the audible differences when flipping cables made from solid core silver conductors? Surely you have experimented and have heard the differences. .
Jea48, not sure why you asked the last question, the one about flipping solid core silver, since silver or any metal solid or stranded conductor should exhibit directionality since they are crystal structures. Which brings me to this rather disturbing situation: if copper and silver cables are directional, then aren't all wires Nd fuses directional as well? If that last statement is TRUE then we have a big problem. Mathematically, unless someone tracked the wire as it came off the spool as Crump suggests, there is a 50% probability that any wire or conductor or fuse in the system is installed backwards. This holds TRUE for any internal wiring, capacitor, resistor, crossover network, speaker wiring, transformer, inductor or fuse. If you see what I mean.
By the way, there is probably no doubt about wire directionality being produced by the final die since cable manufacturers have been marking the wire as it comes off the spool for decades in order to be able to correctly mark the cables with ARROWS. Think of it like porcupine quills. Wouldn't it be easier to stroke a porcupine's back going in the direction of the quills instead of the opposite direction?
The revelation that digital interconnects and their direction can introduce large differences in measured jitter was quite a shock. The differences heard between digital interconnectsand in their directionalityhave now been substantiated by measurement
12-18-14: Geoffkait I also do not happen to think the dielectric material affects the velocity of the signal. As I already said I think the velocity of the signal is fixed (constant) for a given medium, I.e., copper or whatever.
That is not true, Geoff. What Kijanki said is correct. For starters, see this Wikipedia writeup. Many other references can be found which will further confirm this. Widely varying propagation velocity specifications for various cables utilizing copper conductors can also be found.
12-18-14: Jea48 An experiment for those of you that use a CD transport and a separate DAC. If your digital coax cable has a solid core center conductor try this experiment. First listen to a good sounding CD with a strong female voice. Find a particular track you like and listen to it closely a few times. Now flip the digital cable end for end and then listen again. One good CD that comes to mind is, Etta James "Love Songs" track 1) "At Last". Also try a good sounding CD with a piano solo. Post back your results.
I don't use a separate DAC, but FWIW I can hypothesize a reason why a symmetrically designed digital cable may sound different, under some circumstances, depending on the direction in which it is connected. My hypothesis, though, has nothing to do with the wire itself having directional properties, and says nothing about the possibility that a symmetrically designed cable conducting analog signals may be have directional properties.
The connection between a digital cable and its connectors will have an impedance discontinuity and inaccuracy to some non-zero degree, which will result, to some non-zero degree, in some fraction of the amplitudes of whatever RF frequencies it may be asked to conduct being reflected back toward the source of the signal. I would expect the magnitude and character of that impedance discontinuity to not be totally identical at the two ends of the cable, due to small differences in solder application, crimping, etc., and perhaps even to dimensional tolerances in the connector.
Also, the output impedance of the component driving the cable and the input impedance of the component receiving the signal will not be precisely accurate.
Therefore the impedance mismatches between the cable and each of the connected components will differ depending on which end is connected where. And digital audio signals contain frequency components extending well into the RF region, up to at least tens of MHz. (Keep in mind that the risetimes and falltimes of the signal contain significant frequency components that are much higher than the clock rate and the data rate).
Depending on these factors, and also on the length of the cable, and also on the data rate that is being transmitted, the resulting reflections may very conceivably affect waveform quality at or near the mid-point of positive-going and negative-going transitions of the signal, those transition mid-points being what the receiving circuitry responds to. Degradation of those parts of the waveform will affect jitter, and therefore potentially sonics, to some degree. And that potential degradation will, per the earlier parts of this explanation, be affected by which connector is mated with which component. It will also be affected by whether the more significant of the two potential mismatches is at the receiving end or the transmitting end, and by the degree of impedance mismatch at both ends (which will affect how many back and forth re-reflections occur until their amplitude becomes insignificant).
See this paper for further discussion of the effects of impedance mismatches and waveform reflections on jitter, although the paper does not address the question of directionality.
If all of that sounds a bit far-fetched, IMO it is less farfetched than an assertion that wires themselves have directional properties to an audibly significant degree.
P.S: My post just above was written before Jim's post immediately above it appeared. I haven't yet read the Stereophile article he linked to, but I'll post back later if it prompts any further thoughts.
Al, link works if you remove last characters after "9".
Their test proves what you just said - digital cable is not exactly symmetrical presenting slightly different characteristic impedance on both ends. This is very different from directional properties of wire alone carrying analog audio signals.
Many people believe that we should be able to determine that cables are not directional if they present the same measurement from both sides hence two cables with the same measurements should sound identical. I don't believe this to be true. I seriously doubt that one can measure any difference between oxygen free copper (thousands of crystals) or zero crystal copper that comes from continuous casting process - a slow cooling in heated molds to avoid crystallization. Best instruments wouldn't be able to measure this but many claims it makes a difference. Would I be able to tell the difference chopping off 3' of one of the speaker cables - most likely not but my cables are very neutral sounding. Perhaps audio possesses a little bit of black magic?
Thanks, Kijanki. Agreed on all counts, although IMO the words "little bit" in your post should be particularly emphasized.
To quote an excerpt from page 4 of the article:
I performed the same tests using the low-jitter PS Audio Lambda transport as source. The results were very different. With a good source, cable direction didn't make a difference in the measurable jitter (fig.10). This suggests that the SV-3700or any poor-quality transmitterreacts with the cable's impedance to create jitter-inducing reflections in the interface. The directionality was probably caused by differences in the way the two RCA plugs were soldered to the cable; any bumps or discontinuities in the solder or RCA plug will cause a change in the characteristic impedance, which will cause higher-amplitude reflections in one direction than in the other. These reflections set up dynamically changing standing waves in the interface, introducing jitter in the embedded clock. These problems were reduced by the Lambda's higher-quality output circuit. In short, the worse the transport, the more cablesand their directionaffect sound quality.
Exactly what I speculated in my previous post, with some added elaboration based on the measurements that were performed.
Al, Kinjanki, Scvan and Jea48 thanks for the references and posts to an interesting subject. I feel I am getting some truthful and pretty much non biased information I can use to consider how to evaluate and what to work with in my system.
Many people believe that we should be able to determine that cables are not directional if they present the same measurement from both sides hence two cables with the same measurements should sound identical. I don't believe this to be true. I seriously doubt that one can measure any difference between oxygen free copper (thousands of crystals) or zero crystal copper that comes from continuous casting process - a slow cooling in heated molds to avoid crystallization. Best instruments wouldn't be able to measure this but many claims it makes a difference. Would I be able to tell the difference chopping off 3' of one of the speaker cables - most likely not but my cables are very neutral sounding. Perhaps audio possesses a little bit of black magic? 12-19-14: Kijanki
I agree.
Existing technology test equipment cannot measure the differences.... That does not mean they do not exist though. But the trained human ear can hear the differences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Existing technology.....
Posted by Charles Hansen (M) on January 16, 2010 at 17:26:35 In Reply to: Ping, Charles Hansen posted by jea48 on January 16, 2010 at 15:32:09:
Finally, it should be noted that we *do* orient all of our axial-leaded plastic film capacitors. When the capacitor is wound, one of the leads will be connected to the outside conductor and the other lead will be connected to the inside conductor. Orienting the capacitor in the circuit properly makes a difference in the sound quality.
It took us a while to figure out how, but we built a machine that allows us to tell which end of the capacitor is which. It is a pain, but we sort every single capacitor and mark it for the correct orientation at each point in the circuit. If we had to *listen* to every capacitor to determine the correct polarity, I don't think anybody could afford to buy our products...
Here is the Link for the Sterophile/transport Delight article I quoted earlier. . For some strange reason when I paste the link between the [url ]....[/url] brackets the web site is not displayed.
Actually the differences in wire directionality have been measured. These measurements appear on the data sheets on the Hi Fi Tuning fuses web site. Also provided are differences between cryo'd and non cryo'd fuses (wire). Hel-loo!
Al, what difference does it make if the speed of the electromagnetic wave is variable? For the purpose of argument let's say the speed vary between half the speed of light (or about ninety thousand miles per second) and say 3/4 speed of light (or about 135,000 miles per second). Are you suggesting that a difference of a foot or two in cable lengths would be audible due to difference in time it takes the signal to travel the length of the cables? Now, the dielectric material could affect the sound, but that's a different issue.
Getting back to speaker cables, it occurs to me that what I said about connector-related impedance discontinuities in relation to digital cables may have some applicability to speaker cables as well. Speaker cables will to some degree act as antennas, picking up Radio Frequency Interference from various sources, such as nearby cables, power cords, digital components, switching power supplies, light dimmers, fluorescent lights, possibly wifi and even radio stations. That RFI will presumably be at frequencies that are too high, and at amplitudes that are too low, for the speakers to reproduce it and for our ears to hear it. However if the amplifier uses feedback, and if (as I would expect to often be the case) the amplifier's output impedance at RF frequencies is significant, some of that RF energy will be introduced into the feedback loop. Non-linearities and intermodulation effects within the amp may then result in that energy affecting sonics at audible frequencies.
And the magnitude and frequency characteristics of the RFI that is injected into the feedback loop can be expected to vary to some degree depending on the differing impedance discontinuities and mismatches at the two ends of the cable.
The magnitude and frequency characteristics of the RFI that is injected into the feedback loop might even differ significantly depending on the exact physical placement of the spade lug or other termination on the binding post, and/or its positioning relative to nearby metallic surfaces on the amp. As I said early in this thread, when hard to explain and/or seemingly implausible phenomena are being addressed, multiple back and forth comparisons are called for, to be sure that the observation is being attributed to the right variable, as well as to verify that perceived differences are perceived consistently.
I want to clarify something. I honestly believe that some people hear a difference in the directionality of cables. I just do not feel there is a scientific explanation for this. This a belief thing. I find that the only evidence that has been submitted is evidence from people that could make money off of cables, like cable manufacturers. Of course it is always good marketing to say, "buy my product because of X Y and Z". My skepticism comes from the lack of 3rd party evidence or ABX comparisons or anything. I disagree with Kijanki on something. I strongly believe we have the tools to measure these sorts of things. If you can't measure it directly on the cable, but hear a difference, there are certainly mics our there that are much better than my ears. I have a a mic at work that is capable of 4hz to 100khz +/-3db. If anyone on this forum can hear that well, please call me because I want to take you around the world as a side show. We also have mics that are +/-0.5db for smaller ranges, I certainly can't hear that well, but it is easily measured.
I have read all the recent post here, one explaination stands out to be the best of why some cables are truly directional, so here is why my Tara Labs Omega Jumper's are directional,,,Another industry first is TARA Labs' propriety annealing process, known as SA-OF8N 99.999999% copper (super-annealed, oxygen-free, eight nines pure copper). This creates a unique, long, unbroken crystal structure called mono-crystal.
12-19-14: Geoffkait Al, what difference does it make if the speed of the electromagnetic wave is variable? For the purpose of argument let's say the speed vary between half the speed of light (or about ninety thousand miles per second) and say 3/4 speed of light (or about 135,000 miles per second). Are you suggesting that a difference of a foot or two in cable lengths would be audible due to difference in time it takes the signal to travel the length of the cables? Now, the dielectric material could affect the sound, but that's a different issue.
Geoff, I'm suggesting no such thing. I was just correcting a misstatement of fact. I agree completely that differences in signal propagation times will be of no practical or sonic significance whatsoever, under any reasonable circumstances, even if the two cable lengths are significantly unequal. I say that despite the fact that some cable marketing literature would have us believe otherwise. And I say that despite the fact that deep bass frequencies propagate a good deal more slowly than higher frequencies, perhaps 50 times more slowly at 20 Hz, according to what I consider to be a highly credible paper I recall seeing.
As you alluded to, however, several other cable parameters and cable effects, which under some circumstances might be sonically significant, are proportional to length. As I indicated to you and others in the recent thread on unequal cable lengths.
P.S: Here is the paper I referred to above. See Figure 2, although it addresses a coaxial cable rather than speaker cables. At 20 Hz the propagation velocity, while much slower than at higher frequencies, is about 5,000,000 meters per second, easily fast enough to be utterly inconsequential in the context of a home audio system.
"Mono-crystal", nice marketing term. Are there any electron microscope pictures to prove this?
I can almost guarantee that no one can hear 3 9's vs 100 9's difference. The cables in out speakers aren't that good, nor is the copper on the PCB's of our electronics.
Tara labs have facilities in the US, Vietnam, China and Indonesia. Where do they do their engineering and manufacturing? Also, I would love to see the size of their marketing department vs the size of the engineering department. After all they are a "lab".
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