digital vs vinyl thoughts

I'm not trying to get you to throw more money into something that you just may not be into, but...

Are your albums clean? There's no substitute for a good steam and vacuum cleaning to my ears. Vacuum cleaners don't have to be expensive (relatively speaking) - my KAB USA vacuum cleaner was about $170 and truly elevated my vinyl sound quality. Combined with my $25 or so hand held steamer, it's gone up another level.

Second thing - have you considered the Pro-Ject Speed Box? It doesn't just change speeds, it's a great sonic upgrade. There's no tradeoffs with it sonically; it's an across the board upgrade. It easily made my 1Xpression sound better than the next deck up the line. It's about $130 or so nowadays.

Thirdly - Acrylic platter. Combined with the Speed Box, it's like a different and far better deck. I think it's about $100.

But for about $250 or so between the acrylic platter and Speedbox, you may be better taking that money and selling the Debut and buying a better deck IMO.

But again, don't force yourself to try to like vinyl. You may convince yourself for a little while, but in the long run you'll come to your senses and kick yourself in the rear end if it's truly not for you. The best way to know is to hear some better decks. Hopefully you've got a dealer or two locally that has one or two set up on the floor. With dealers closing everyday and turntables being a niche within a niche, it's not easy to find one though.

I am able to enjoy both by not having to decide which is better. Just liking the music that I hear...

I wanted to add that I personally feel that both formats are essential for the playback of music. What good is any equipment without music to play on it?

I expanded my listening to audio files, not for convenience, but because I could not find certain music on LP or on CD. Or, it was only available on CD, or only available on LP. I would hate to give up music just because I'm a die-hard this or that.

I don't think there will ever be a resolution of this issue. we just move on with new formats and hope they get it right. But, they won't. Their job is to separate us from our money. New format means that you have to get your same recordings again in the new format. Analog vinyl to tape to CD (always easier to use). Video (VCR, Beta, VCR, LD, DVD), always easier to use. My only real issue with this subject is that I have found for most younger people, they have grown up getting use to sound reproduction that is absolutely terrible and thinking it is correct. Cymbols don't sound like real cymbols, etc. but they never have heard a real french horn, violin, bass, etc. They hear, highly compressed, poorly formatted/recorded digital music played back on some inexpensive mp3 setup, and they see no reason to spend thousands of dollars on a good system because their music is okay to them. I remember when my Daughter was young and I took her to a concert a long time ago to hear a really great female vocal singer perform. I didn't need to say anything afterwards. My Daughter finally heard real singing from a person that didn't do vocal calisthenics to mask the fact that they can't really hold a note. She was amazed and became a admirer of that singer to this day. So, no disrespect to anyone here, but every now and then I really want to hear the music as correctly as I possibly can. Hence, my analog rig. I've played classical vioin, sax, clarinet, oboe, bassoon, etc. I've played in orchestras, bands, etc. I know what a real drum, sax, violin, cymbol, etc. sound like. Some fancy magazine always states that their reference is live unamplified music. I don't agree with that at all. My reference is knowing what the music is supposed to sound like in the first place. But this is really hard to achieve. If you weren't in the recording room, you have no idea what they were trying to accomplish. But, for me in my living room, if a violin is playing, it better sound like a real violin, or a stand up bass, etc. is there a sound stage? Where are the performers on the stage? can I "see" them?, how deep is it? If I close my eyes and I can tell I'm listening to speakers, something is wrong. We aren't there yet. Digital to me means that I don't have to keep getting up to turn the album over, or clean the disc or the stylus. (easier to use digital playback than vinyl). My music server through my DAC doesn't sound nearly as good as my single disc CD transport through my DAC, so I still have to get up to change discs. Oh well. Music server listening for when I just want to sit and hear music. CD playback for when I really want to hear it. Analog playback for when I want to disappear into the song. We will have this discussion when the next latest and greatest music reproduction format comes out. I just hope I'm around and healthy enough to hear and experience it. Life is good.

enjoy

How can anyone expect to resolve this issue, given the plethora of variables involved? ie: vinyls obtained at garage sales vs "audiophile" quality pressings, MM vs MC vs MI vs strain gauge cartridges, the quality or lack thereof of cabling/systems/speakers/phono stages/aural accuity/digital playback system, with what accuracy the analog system(cartridge VTF, VTA, Rake Angle, azimuth, arm/cart compatiblity, arm geometry)was assembled, etc. The analog system(RTR or TT) is much more hands-on than the CD. The biggest reason it ALMOST replaced vinyl, in the marketplace(ease of use). The vast majority of humanity is VERY LAZY. Well- that and gullible. "Perfect Sound Forever?"(yeah, right!) Then too; Kenny brought up another point in saying, "OK, more natural." I prefer analog because I listen to live music two or three times a week. I would just venture a guess, that most that prefer digital are comparing format with format(with all the aforementioned variables), rather than playback vs live. TO EACH HIS OWN! If YOU are happy; that's ALL that matters! BTW: My CD player is a BAT VK-D5, with six early 60's, Siemens CCa's in the analog output section and Kimber KS-1130 interconnects. No slouch, and excellent sound(for digital).

Marantz new digital, is less digital than old Theta; which was top of the line a few years ago.

I can only hear the difference in the "software".

I listen to CD's and LP's off the playlist of the computer. I can hear differences between the qualities of CD's and the quality of LP's, but I can't hear any consistant difference between the two.

I never have and maybe I never will hear the most expensive analog rig; it's for sure I'll never buy it.

This analog, digital thing seems like some kind of "mass hypnosis" thing that has overcome the "Gon" in favor of vinyl. I didn't say "analog", I said "vinyl".

You can spend all the money you want, but the two formats will still sound somewhat different if you're capable of hearing those differences.

I listen to both formats and have invested in both. I found that I had to spend more money on my analog front end to surpass, in my mind, my older Theta CD Transport/DAC. For some, this may be diminishing returns, or some just like the sound of digital more.

I have to be honest with everyone and admit, that the Theta gear caused me set aside my older SOTA Star Sapphire TT. However, I never really invested in a real high-end cartridge, so maybe that was a limiting factor.

Today, the tables have turned as I invested in an analog front-end that really allows me to hear the "difference" that somewhat eluded me for a number of years. However, I don't think it's so much about sound quality as it is about sound pleasure. I am more relaxed, less bored, and happier listening to my TT. The reasons for this don't matter to me. If I can quantify anything, is that my analog front sounds like it is delivering more information than my digital front. So, cymbals sound more like cymbals and I can sense the air between the instruments. Okay, more natural.

Evidently there are people here who are in desperate need of a new "digital" rig.

The great thing about this "hobby" is that subjects like this always come back for discussion. That is a good thing. As I have stated many times, when comparing equipment, one should compare apples to apples. I encourage that price point comparisons are always the way to go. Do your homework on equipment, then afterwards determine your price point, then and only then start comparing equipment within that price point. For Analog (vinyl vs digital), lets just say that I have many LPs that are poorly recorded and sound terrible no matter how expensive the TT/Arm/Cartridge, etc is. However, the same can be said for CD recordings. In the early years, the advantage of CDs over vinyl was that it was simply easier to use. No elaborate cleaning involved, no pops, scratches, etc. But the early CDs were compressed to death and the recording quality (not the music), was crap. It even got to the point where CDs were showing how they were recorded, AAD, DDD, etc. just to convince people of their quality. I have many, many early CDs that I simply can't listen to. The music is wonderful, but they are so poorly recorded that it hurts my ears. A good friend of mine brought over her favorite music on CD to listen to and her favorite music sounded terrible. She now can hear the difference between bad CDs and good recorded CDs. All that said, I have a really nice CD/DAC setup that is absolutely wonderful. I also have a really nice TT/ARM/Cartridge/Phono Stage setup that still routinely sounds better (wider soundstage, more open, etc.) that the CD system. That is not to say that the CD system isn't great. it is. But as an Engineer also, you can't tell me that sampling an analog signal into pieces doesn't lose information. it does. Copying CD to CD you don't lose information because it copies bit for bit. But recording an analog signal to digital, no matter the sample rate, you are going to lose information. Everyone has their preferences. Vinyl was never perfect also remember. RIAA has inherent flaws also. However, I'll take both until something new comes along that is better, which I can afford. Last night after the Superbowl at my house, we turned on the system to listen. I played songs from Eva Cassidy Songbird CD and also had it on vinyl and played the same song on vinly. While listening to the CD, everyone absolutely loved the sound and was really into the music and her wonderful voice. When I switched (one push of a button on my pre-amp's remote control), to vinyl, everyone in the room heard differences to the point that each and every one loved the vinyl better. But, don't forget, before we switched, they loved the CD also. It was just that the vinyl was more open, more depth, etc. It was fun. My digital rig, cost when new, probably about the same as my analog rig. well, close. But, I'll take both right now. But in conclusion, to tell you the truth, the best sound I have heard came from a reel-to-reel setup.

enjoy

Inna I don't respect your opinion, what open mined person would.

inna i respect your opinion but analogue isn;t always better [at least to me]. i have heard some awesome music reproduction with digital sources. i have some family members who are lifelong professional musicians and they think my system is the coolest thing they have ever listened to in a home setting. they bring cds of their music performances over here to listen to. i don't think they are blowing smoke either even tho i think my system is only lower end high value[budget] audiophile stuff. how would you explain that? jazz musicians at that.

I will put it in a subtle way. CD sucks, so does computer. No involvement period, weak dynamics, recessed midrange, harsh and stupid highs, even bass is not right. Analog is always better. One day it might change and it might not. There are no substitutes for real things, in audio or anywhere else.

Regretably, others have pointed out to "experience vinyl" you have to spend a minimum threshold to begin to know what the exciement is all about. Entry-level turntables aren't going to get you there. Even with a "modest" turntable (and cartridge) you'll still need a quality phono-preamp. It took me a tube preamp and $300 range phono preamp before my modest resurrected B&O turntable caught my attention. (I hit vinyl nirvana after a VPI turntable and mono block tube amps!) An alternative: One major change over the last 25 years has been the improvements in DACs for CDs. I started several years ago with a used Cal Audio Lab tube DAC for $150 and moved along until I plateaued at the PS Audio DAC III which gives me about 85-90% of my analog/vinyl experience. Depending on how many CDs you have, this might be a less expensive option to hear better sound. The dirty secret that's emerging here is decent vinyl playback requires an investment before you can enjoy $1 record bargain finds at Good Will and Garage Sales. Happy listening.

Well I'm going to have to disagree and say that (to me) vinyl just sounds more real, you are there. I just can't seem to get "involved" with CD sound like I can with vinyl. I do have more $$$$ in my analog system than the OP though. That could be the reason. But my Ayon CD1 is no slouch either. To each his own I guess.

i agree. as a enthusiast i just had to buy a table so i can scour the flea markets for 25 cent records and have more audio gear. i sold my luxman pd444 with a grace 707 and a signet phono cart 30 years ago amd should have remembered it would take more than a 400 dollar[in 2012 dollars] turntable to get to "elevated" performance levels. if i lived in a city with a dealer i would probably be returning/exchanging the project but it's a one way street here in the ozarks. audio gear comes in by ups and never leaves.....just shuffled to another system in another room.

Elizabeth:
Thank you. So well stated.

The difference is $$$$$$$$$. I have LP's stacked to the ceiling, I'm a dinosaur; all dinosaurs have LP's stacked to the ceiling. Evidently other dinosaurs want young people to get into this very expensive, extremely complex "Dinosaur game".

When comparing ultra high end digital with vinyl, I can not hear one iota of difference, if they both have top software. When I compared the best LP with the best CD, any difference was "illusionary" in regard to the music. When you know you're listening to a top "Koetsu", and everything that goes with it, that makes you hear things.

That's a slight exaggeration, when you listen to a top "Koetsu" and everything that goes with it, you will hear music reserved for the angels; but can you afford it.

Liz is correct, " trying to compare is not productive ", or meaningful. Both have there virtues. Despite what many try to ram down your throat, one is not clearly better than the other in every way. Some prefer vinyl some prefer digital, lets leave it at that.

i agree tom. i just thought there would be a bit o magic. it is still fun to have a turntable. a system just looks better with one. after i get the money i will take your advice and then enjoy how great a vinyl source sounds . thanks john

You are correct: "but the fact that the project has a hard wired ac cord and less than stellar phono wires and a inexpensive cartridge must be the reason."

Quality costs $$$ as you have found out.

I recommend the Clearaudio Concept or Performance tables with Maestro or Virtuoso Wood cartridge.