Okay, I have had the GC spades on my DeVore Super 8's for about a week now and I am getting the same results as Ozzy. A very nice improvement in sound stage width and front to back layering with a more relaxed and palpable presentation.
Like Ozzy, I too have the SR Power Cell SE, Apex ic's, and Tesla pc's. However, I have found that the SR Power Cell, as good as it is, would increase the sound stage at the expense of added glare. So, I now use an Audience PDC for my integrated amps. This gave me a wonderful sound stage that is relaxed with perfect pitch and the GC spades have taken this to the next level.
Ozzy, have you tried the standard GC rca's yet? I am also curious if you are running your amp into the PowerCell. |
Review of the Audioprism Ground Controls.
First, the Standard Ground Controls.
Spades
First set
Well I finally have one of the Ground Control spades installed for about a week.
I will admit that these little things dont look like much but they do provide a marked sound quality improvement in my system.
Music seems to be much more relaxed or natural sounding. The soundstage is deeper and wider. Vocals are very nice and defined closer to the real thing.
I liked the Ground Control device so much that I ordered another set for my Bi-wire speakers.
Second Set
Now that I have installed the second set of Ground Controls on my biwire speakers (Andra 2), I cant believe how clear and defined the bass has become!
This product should be standard with all speakers!
How can I invest?
Third Set
I just got my third set of the Ground control units. I now have 2 sets on my biwire speakers and a set at my Amp end.
I cant believe how much improvement these little items have made in my musical enjoyment.
The bass has become much stronger and defined. So much so that I had to turn down the setting on my JL Audio sub. Cymbals crash and shimmer much more like real cymbals. Vocals sound much more relaxed and real.And the soundstage is very deep and wide. I cant say enough good things about these little Ground Controls.
The ONLY negative is they could be cheaper for what they appear to be made of. But sound quality wise the cost is cheap compared to the sound quality improvement.
Way better than HIFI fuses. Way better than most interconnect and power cable upgrades.
The Reference Ground Controls
Spades
The Reference GCs cost quite a bit more than the standard GCs and they use the premium Shadow connectors. I first tried the Reference spades on my Andra 2s on the upper part of the Bi-wire setup. On the bottom I was still using the standard GCs.
The music lost the wide soundstage. Also,the treble and bass became much weaker. Not a good sound.It was almost like an impedance mismatch. I then tried the Reference spades at the Amplifier end with the standard GCs now on both the top and bottom on my Andra 2 speakers. The soundstage was a little better but defiantly not as good as when I used all standard GCs.
So, off the Reference spades went banished forever from my 2 channel setup.
I then tried them on my Home Theater setup on some B&W speakers. Now there, the Reference spades sounded great! Very strange indeed.
Ground Control Reference
RCAs
So, I then tried the GC Reference RCAs. I first inserted one in one of my two Cary 306 Pro CD Player outlets and let it play for several days. This time nothing bad happened to the sound, but nothing good happened either.I noticed no change with the Reference Ground Control plugged into the outlet on my Cary CD Player.I then tried that Reference GCs into one of my unused inputs on my Pass Labs Preamp.
Eureka! There was added resolution and a livelier presentation. Still strange indeed.
Summary
So, there is my experience with these small strange items. When they click with the equipment you will think you have upgraded to an ultra $$$ System. The Music becomes lively, toe tapping and makes Music sound as real as I have ever heard on any system.
The Ground Control Reference units though costlier are more a hit or miss on potential improvements.
Of Course everyone's system is different so the GC's may perform differently, but definatly worth a try to see if the magic they can provide will be created in your system.
Well next, I will be adding a standard GC RCA to either (again) to my Cary CD player or perhaps side by side in my Pass Labs Preamp input where the Reference RCA is already inserted. I may even try it into my Pass Labs Amplifier since I am only using the balanced inputs and the RCA inputs are unused (just as with my Cary and Preamp).
Associated gear
Cary 306 Pro CD Player
Pass Labs XP-10 Preamp
Pass Labs X350.5 Amp
Eggleston Works Andra 2 Speaker
Synergistic Research Powercell, Apex Interconnects, and speaker cables |
For those of you scratching your heads, like I was, here is Ozzies review thread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1280171827&&&/AudioPrism-Ground-Control-Tweak
Thanks Ozzie, those are kind words indeed.
Bud |
Well I just posted my Review of the Ground Controls in the standard and the Reference versions in spades and RCA. |
Moonguy,
I cannot make recommendations, only tell you what I have ended up with.
The speakers are EnABL/d Fostex Fe 127 eN drivers in Fonken prime boxes, from Planet10 HiFi in Canada. Very high resolution and sonically invisible to begin with, so the extreme specificity that the Reference GC's provide just aided with definition.
These things will resolve everything, right down to -90db, that the motor structure can pass and the entire sound stage illusion is behind the back of the boxes. Without the standard GC on the amp, this combination suffers from a less than wall to wall sound stage. Not closed down in any specific way but the illusion is of a smaller performance space, within a large space, with echos and such hinting at the larger space.
I have found the same dual, standard / reference GC, to be the best use of RCA GC's for preamp, FM radio, CD / SACD player and most recently, an M Audio 610 box that I am starting to use as an interface to a computer based sound source.
In case you missed the notice on the other thread on GC's here on Audiogon, there is a review that deals with the RCA reference GC's on Stereo Times here. http://www.stereotimes.com/
Bud |
Moonguy, Yes, I am using the standard Ground Controls. Soon I will be trying the RCA versions. |
Hi Ozzy,
Are the 3 sets of ground controls you have in your system the standard ones, not the reference version?
Bud,would you recommend then just putting the standard GC's on the amp so the soundstage doesn't shrink and the reference at the speaker? I live in Canada, so with shipping, etc would like to get it right the 1st time.
Thanks, Greg |
That's interesting. My Audience PDC is going through
this same kind of break in pattern. It should be fully
broken in in about 3 weeks. At that time I will definitely
give the spades a try. |
Hi Scott.
The single, or pair, RCA question is answered by how the strip grounds are handled in any piece of gear. If they are separated into two channels then two equivalent RCA's are needed. If the channels are not separate then one may do the trick. It may be worth getting one of each grade to experiment with, but only if you have common ground between channels. You may have to peer inside to determine this.
Look on the RCA jacks for input and output. If they all go to the same buss, for both left and right channels, then trying two different RCA's out will be worth while. Doesn't matter where you put them either, input or output, in either case.
These take about 4 hours to work through the charge stabilization period. You will get tonal vividness immeadiately, and it will increase for a period of time, but the sound will start of some what sharp and almost monaural. The GC's will gradually open up to even tonal character and reasonable stage width, only to snap back to the previous state.
With every one of these "breaths" the stage will get wider and deeper and they will stabilize at a very wide, very deep sound stage, with considerable 3 dimensional control within those spaces.
You can take them off for about two days and they will recharge within minutes. Keeping them attached will hold their charge state for quite a bit longer, but not running the system for a month will have them go through a good portion of the breathing again. When taking them to some other system, they will will need about 20 minutes to take control.
Thanks for your comments on the ground system and it's benefit. Most EE's just ask me how I can justify any sort of expense for grounds? Noting that they have never seen any data supporting that need. I just smile, knowing they will continue to provide me with satisfied customers, once their Ground Control issues have been dealt with.
Bud |
Thanks again Bud.
The last thing I need is decreased width so
I will consider trying the standard gc's.
Interestingly, the positive effects that
Ozzy described are the same that I am experiencing
with the Audience PDC power center which is
designed to give proper grounding especially for
Naim gear. So, I am now a firm believer in proper
grounding. My system is finally sounding like real
music and not just electronic sound.
As for my dac and transport, I don't have any spare
rca's. I do have the Naim xs integrated and a
Cary 300b sei sing ended triode tube amp that I could
use the rca's on.
So on the spades, how long do they take to run in?
Also, is it best to start with only one rca or do
you need a pair?
So, for my pre |
Well, not exactly. The reference GC provides quite a bit more detail. It does appear to close down the sound stage width for some systems The net effect being much more information retained, in those areas covered by note and transient specific internal gradient information, and more wide band low amplitude coherence in general.
The standard GC provides the same sort of information retention, but it is not really close to the reference units in retaining as much of the specifics pointed to above. They don't either of them have any sound character at all. Whatever level of resolution your system is currently capable of, these two will help retain the back half of the wave form of that level.
Having said that, most modern day systems have a tremendous amount of information, in the signal side of the electronics. It is the lack of care for the audible properties of grounds that GC is rectifying.
I realize it is hard to grasp how the back half of a wave form might be important. We aren't adding anything to the characteristics you are already familiar with. We are just making what you have far more complete than it is without some form of attention, to the audible portions of a proper ground system.
As for the RCA units, in my tube preamp which is off having some radio frequency oscillations squelched, the reference RCA all by itself was exactly what was needed to free up the sound from a slightly slow, very sweet and clear character. All that occurred was a sense of agility, quite a bit better rendition of instruments within their performance space and greater wholeness to the entire sound. Everything sounded complete, in comparison to no reference RCA. The standard RCA had an effect similar in character, but not in degree of information completeness, and the resulting depth of field illusion. In that case, there was no narrowing of the sound field, with either of the two.
My recommendation is to go slow. If you have a CD player, or outboard DAC with an available input or output, that is contiguous between channels, try the standard RCA there first. If you like the change, try another on your preamp, again with the same stipulations about contiguous grounds.
Before you do either of these I would suggest a pair of the standard GC lugs on your speakers. If you decide to move to the reference units, these standard lugged units can go on the other end of your speaker cable. I don't think you will find you need more than this. However, once in place the changes wrought by the RCA units will be much more effective and available.
Almost all modern audio gear has contiguous grounds, with only some outboard Dac's (Peter Daniels comes to mind) having proper ground planes, with separate channels and power ground separate from signal ground.
Since there is a money back guarantee on these things, I am sure you will know if you are satisfied within the 30 days allowed.
Bud |
Thanks for the response Bud.
So, are you saying that the reference gc basically sounds
the same as the standard gc in terms of sound staging, bass
response and smoothness but offers more low level detail?
Also, is it recommended to use an rca pair? Are some inputs
or outputs better then others? |
Hi Scott,
I can tell you what I have found in my personal system.
The reference GC provides more resolution than the standard. It does this without adding grain or emphasis, just more information retention across the FR bandwidth. Remember, this is all back half of the wave form coherence.
I find the reference GC's the most useful on my speakers, which are very high resolution items from Plant 10 Hi Fi, and are full range single driver systems aided by EnABL. I found using the reference GC's on the amplifier too closed the lateral sound stage down to just the width of the speakers, so the Audio Prism Debut gets the standard GC set. This provides a wall to wall floor to ceiling performance, from two 4 inch drivers!
The preamp is a borrowed solid state Nikko Beta l, with the typical mid 80's transparency and refinement and hashy high frequencies. A reference and a standard RCA are paired here, since the ground scheme is common to both channels and inputs and outputs. These RCA's are on the spare output jacks. The hashiness is gone and what is left is an extremely elegant, liquid, presentation, that I had no idea could be gotten out of a solid state preamp. The phonostage is still crap however.
My Sony SACD player also has this GC combination and both the Red Book and SACD are strongly benefited, with the usual SACD slight darkness and strain having been eliminated. All of the Red Book tendency to harshness on guttural voices and most high frequency information has been transformed, back into the music values it originally came from. Even the underlying hardness to the sound has been mitigated, though not entirely.
I cannot imagine any scheme where the GC's would interfere with your Naim's grounding scheme. I have heard musings about Naim products requiring Naim cable loads to remain stable. Not sure this is true at all, but the GC has so little capacitance and so little inductance and is on the return side of the signal path in any event, that I have difficulty in imagining any damaging circumstances arising.
My system is distinctly high performance, from what are now upper mid fi components. I am quite happy with the entire package and while I was just as happy before GC came along, I couldn't stand going without. I have tried. Do note that I am the inventor of these things, so I undoubtedly have a personal slant, but I am trying to provide you with what I have found. Ozzie has a number of GC's in has system and may have a few things to say too.
Bud |
Has anyone compared the new version of the ground control
with the XHADOW connectors? If so what are the sonic
differences. Is it possible that the new version rolls
of the top maybe too much in certain systems?
I am also curious about the rca ground control on Naim
gear. Naim gear is said to be tristar grounded and I
am powering my Naim gear with the Audience pdc with had
this same grounding scheme. Would it be safe to even
try the rca gc on the Naim? |
I am quite sure you are correct Ozzie. The GC's are doing no more than retaining the coherence of the information, after it has passed through the various "loads" in your system, just prior to being pulled back through those "loads", to reproduce the back half of the wave forms.
What you are experiencing is just what your system really sounds like, and I for one have to say I am heartily in favor of just how good the designers and engineers have made modern audio. What you have commented on is exactly what I and many others have experienced, thank you for voicing your thoughts.
Bud |
Just got my third set of the Ground control units. I now have 2 sets on my biwire speakers and a set at my Amp end.
I cant believe how much improvement these little items have made in my musical enjoyment.
The bass has become much stronger and defined. So much so that I had to turn down the setting on my JL Audio sub. Cymbals crash and simmer much more like real cymbals. Vocals sound much more relaxed and real.
And the soundstage is very deep and wide.
I cant say enough good things about these little Ground Controls.
The ONLY negative is they could be cheaper for what they appear to be made of. But sound quality wise the cost is cheap compared to the sound quality improvement.
Way better than HIFI fuses. Way better than most interconnect and power cable upgrades.
But I should note that I do have some rather expensive cables in my system.
All in all it could be the sum of all my audio parts. |
Ozzy,
I'm using the spades only at the speaker. |
Hjs, Thanks for the clarification. Are you using the Ground Control spades at the Amp and the speaker ? |
Ozzy- I'm using only the version with spades. Can't speak to the RCA's. |
Try both Ozzie. It takes about two hours for all of various charge states to get organized. After that time interval, pull the RCA out, listen for 10 minutes and plug it back in. Do thi for both, though you may want to check with Pass Labs to see if their ground design is continuous for both channels. If so, one RCA should do and I would place it on outputs in preference to inputs, but I doubt there is a rational reason behind this choice. Good idea to check out the Cary also, but I would expect it to be a continuous ground for both channels in the analog output buffer stage.
Under no circumstances should you introduce one of these Ground Controls to the digital ground of any digital section of any piece of equipment. Using it on the outputs for the Cary is all you want to consider and only for the analog outputs that drive the preamp.
Bud |
Budp, So would you recomend plugging the RCA Ground Control into my Pass Labs Preamp or my Cary 306 Pro CD player? |
Just to stick my two cents in. The RCA pieces seemed to make the biggest difference in ordinary commercial CD players, sub $500 products. Rendering the typical high frequency hash and garble, however slight, back into the musical information it actually is, before the op amps have their way with it. Then I got hold of this solid state Nikko preamp and now the biggest difference made is with the Nikko.
Our Asian markets seem to be much more interested in the RCA than the lugged speaker / amplifier Ground Control and the change in the Nikko's behavior may be a clue as to why this is true. In the other cases I have tried the change was subtle, being primarily in making three dimensional interpretation of the stereo illusion much easier and removing even more of the noise masking, small, wide band wide frequency response information difficult to interpret. This seems to be more of an ease in spaciousness than anything else.
Bud |
Hjs, Did you find much improvement with the RCA version? |
I'm using a pair on my my tube driven Sound Lab A-1(PX)as well as my Duntech Sovereigns. Improvements are cleary audible as a lower noise floor for both systems, and for reasons I can't fathom, improved soundstaging on the Duntechs.In the world of tweaks, this is a good one for the price. |
Now that I have installed the second set of Ground Controls on my biwire speakers (Andra 2), I cant believe how clear and defined the bass has become!
This product should be standard with all speakers!
How can I invest ? |
Well, that is quite interesting. The one reported failure, with a fully differential system, comes from Stuart Yaniger whose system is detailed here http://syclotron.com/ Stuart is a friend and a died in the wool objectivist, along with being a talented designer and builder and his system showed no changes he could detect.
I cannot personally make any claims as my personal system is all non differential, just report what I have had others tell me. So, thank you for that insight Jejaudio, another data point and a useful one too.
Bud |
Hi, Budp. My criticism of the gentleman in the 6moons review was that his sidebar answers were described hear in this forum as non-answers and laughable. I will let those with that view answer for themselves. I don't know if those members have even tried the Ground Controls. I have used the Ground Controls and can speak to the positive effect they have had in my system. On my power amp and speakers. So for me it is more important to talk about what I heard with them in my system which was positive. And not let what in my opinion (and others) was not a strong defence of a very good product. |
My Classe S-700 is a fully differential amp. And I have used the Audio Prism Ground Control on my amp and speaker end with good results and no problems at all. |
Budp, I thought it was important for me to post since I was so negative previously on this post.
I dont have any idea why a short little thing like these Ground controls work, but they do. |
Almarg, I am using the ground Control spades at my speaker ends. |
Budp 2/25/10: if you have poured ground planes in all of your equipment in the amplification chain, or you have a fully differential amplifier, without direct reference to true ground, they will not provide you with any benefit.
Ozzy 4/28/10: Well I finally had one of the Ground Controls for about a week.
I will admit that these little things dont look like much but they do provide a marked sound quality, improvemnent in my system.
Music seems to be much more relaxed or natural and the soundstage is deeper and wider. Vocals are very nice and defined closer to the real thing. Ozzy, aren't your Pass Labs preamp and amp fully differential? Regards, -- Al |
Nicely said guys. I appreciate your mention of the cables you use Ozzy, answers one of those blank spaces of system composition and their effect upon the Ground Control pieces.
Just as pleased as you are that the Ground Controls worked in your system.
Three days ago I loaned my transformer attenuator preamp to a colleague. He provided a SS Nikko Beta II preamp. Typical hashy leading edge to mid and hi frequency, SS sound, from products made back then.
It has two RCA output jack sets, so I plugged a couple of RCA Ground Controls in place and not even the reference ones either, one at a time, just to see what happened. I now have an extremely transparent, very sweet and colorful preamp... and I think I like it more than my stepped attenuator passive device, with my own high zoot transformers in it, just to add insult.
I will mention to Byron how weak, vague and shaky his interview was Jejaudio. Which review were you referencing?
He is one of those Afrikaners from So. Africa, so I suspect I will get a sharp response and a laugh back!
Bud |
Hi, Ozzy. Glad to hear from someone else how has based his opinion on what they heard with there ears with the Ground Controls in there system. There is no substitute for real world hands-on experience with this or any other product in your system. The Audio Prism Ground Control makes it easy to doubt what it does in one's system, with it's small size, unassuming looks, and the very weak, vague, shaky interview given by the Audio Prism representative. |
Well I finally had one of the Ground Controls for about a week.
I will admit that these little things dont look like much but they do provide a marked sound quality, improvemnent in my system.
Music seems to be much more relaxed or natural and the soundstage is deeper and wider. Vocals are very nice and defined closer to the real thing.
I liked the Ground Control device so much that I ordered another for my Bi-wire speakers.
Now, I am using the Synergistic Research Apex Bi wire speaker cables and these have the active shielding. Perhaps because of this the Ground Control complements the cables.
I duuno, but they are worth the price of the improvement in sound even though they dont look like much.
Highly recommended |
yes.... exactly... we've been giggling over it for some time too. |
Ground Control to Major Tom..... |
I dont think so. He said he had an extra pair. |
Used Ground Control? Already? WOW. Were they from a dissatisfied user?
Bud |
Well, I finally bought a used pair of the Ground Control spades. Man are they really small.
Just hooked them up and I will give them a try for while.
i will report back in about a week. |
In many elderly systems, pre WWII, they ran a wire from the neg terminal, on the driver, to the plated metal basket. This is a ground plane for the driver, there is no particular control over the materials affecting the electrostatic moments in the AC signal, but it has to be better than what is available in your wall, out in the yard and down the road to the substation. Not that service should be by passed in any way, but an alternate is advised, at least for the speaker.
I would absolutely NOT connect the speaker ground to the house system ground, under any circumstances. You are almost certain to form a ground loop antenna and many new and unusual sounds might be the result.
If you want to experiment with a loop of wire, use lamp cord, about 2 feet of it. split it into two halves, strip the ends of each piece and twist them together, making a shorted turn of wire. Connect this to your speaker,s black lug. This will not provide you with a carefully controlled set up like Ground Control does, but you should find some quite noticeable differences in performance.
Bud |
I would like to know if anyone has tried to DIY?
Would running a wire from the neg speaker terminal to an electrical ground elsewhere have any detrimental effect? |
Just to show how far away from the sales end of GC I am, here are the names of the four dealers involved. Acoustic Sounds, Elusive Disc, Galen Carol Audio & Music Direct. I hope posting these is still abiding by the forum guidelines.
Bud |
I am not a dealer. I am just the idiot with the idea. Music Direct and I think one other (I will check on this) are dealers. I don't even make the parts, though I do design and build high level audio transformers and provide EnABL patterns for free use to DIYer's and also as a source for those who want the benefits but don't want to learn to do the process. The Ground Control is just a spin off of R&D on cables, to obtain as sonically invisible a cable as possible, to allow me to further refine the transformer designs for audio reproduction.
AudioPrisim is an entirely separate entity and the GC's are being marketed and manufactured by them. This is actually the only way they could have been brought to market, as I do not have the contacts in the business they do. They are in fact the people who drove the commercialization of the idea, so without them, there would be no Ground Control.
Bud |
Budp, Dont you need to disclose that you are a dealer for Audioprism??? |
I actually have the GC's on my amplifier (an AudioPrizm Debut with new OPT's and power supply mods) on my Sony CD/SACD player and my Planet 10 Fonken boxes with EnABL'd Fostex 127 eN drivers installed. The amplifier GC's provided about half as much back side of the wave information retention as the GC's on the speakers. The CD player GC retained the high frequency information as music, rather than the rather harsh, grainy, unmusical edge to sound that the unit came with. Not proselytizing here (much anyway) but I suspect some folks are wondering about uses in other locations and these have been my results. I do also have them in my transformer, stepped, isolated attenuator preamp, but most folks don't have one of these.
Bud |
Another review in Stereo Times. |
I got a pair installed on my Duevel Bella Lunas driven by a Wavac EC300B. The effect is not subtle: much increased air and transparency in the treble (particularly noticeable on splashing cymbals and the like) as we as more articulation and speed in the bass. Weird but effective |
I suppose it is easy to paint all manufacturers with the same brush, when you've had a bad experience. I've read many such tales of woe on Audio Asylum and elsewhere. I think both Audio Prism and Music Direct are very reputable companies and Music Direct would happily refund you. Of course, it is your money and your decision. |
Mesh50, I really wanted to demo them. But unlike for you a professional reviewer the Manufacturer does not support demos. There response to me was to purchase them and if I did not think they did anything try to get a refund.
I have bought items on those terms only to have a real hassle getting my money back |
Yes. My statement merely tries to convey their relative value. This is where your own decision making must come into play. It seems that you do not want to try them. There is nothing wrong with that.
Steve |
