So much frothing and veins popping out on foreheads! Mahgister, you win the prize my friend! Your outpourings are truly epic and everything I have come to expect from the golden-ear brigade. And you call an ASR member a zealot? Take a look in the mirror! The only reason to remove this thread would be because it's hacking over so much diatribe that's gone on between the objective and subjective side of audio reproduction on HiFi systems ad nauseum for decades. The fact is that you are either using your equipment to listen to music or using music to listen to your equipment. Personally I'm from the former camp. I enjoy music and have listened to it on a range of gear from very expensive to downright poverty spec and do you know what? Every time I listen to something I like, it's still the thing I like. It's not a live performance and no conventionally produced recording can match that. The reason it can't match it is the amount of processes the recording passes through on its way to being a finished product. Subsequently, its a moot point as to what combination of expensive audio gear can come the closest to reproducing a live performance, none of it can. I recently started a discussion about speakers on ASR and my assertion was that the search for the "perfect" speaker was a pointless exercise. To back this up, I illustrated the broad range of speaker designs and design philosophy, not to mention materials and electronics. There is such variety in this technology that to declare one the "best" in not practical or honest. As many have pointed out here, it comes down to your personal experience and what you think is best, nobody else's . Personally, I'm really happy with the Q Audio speakers I just picked up for $275 and the little Class D Bluetooth amp I hooked up to them mainly because I just want a nice, room filling sound, not loud not impressive, just nice to listen to music with. I did some research, mainly on the speakers and for the money, they looked ideal for my purposes. The amp, well I just followed the latest chip tech and tried not to buy an amp with something obsolete inside it. I used a cut up shaver cord for speaker cables and paired the rig to my phone to listen to my Spotify playlists. That's it, nice, simple, cheap, sounds good, no distortion (that I can perceive) and now I have the music I like in my living room. Happy.
Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?
It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
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Yes of course his acolytes will head in sand defend the emperor, ignoring all facts like he both knows what he’s testing, has the knowledge and means to measure/analyze the difference in signals with the equipment he is pictured with, has confessed to having cheated by cranking low level/silence, etc, etc, etc. Never mind the long history of fabricating tests aka the AVS link. All that it to be ignored, in the name of science, you know. Wanna bet he can’t repeat the feat proctored and unable to cheat, like at PAF 24? Or more likely avoids any proctored test at all. |
I'm saying you can't tell them apart without the cheating you've both admitted to and denied simultaneously. The latter, about the now measurements guru/former Microsoft exec Amir being unable to measure the difference between bit depth/noise floor/etc.of computer files, even manipulated, is comical. Not quite this level https://www.avsforum.com/threads/establishing-differences-by-the-10-volume-method.1136745/page-21#post-16385934 I don't care what Kevn believes, you are the one posting the gamed Foobar ABX files as retroactive bragging rights after the AVS debacle above. This is exactly the type of test I'm proposing for PAF 24, that you take and demonstrate ability to detect difference between 16/44 and Hi rez...but without any of your analyzer gear around and being proctored/overseen for the first time, i.e. not allowed to crank silence etc methods of cheating. I already know you are going to use the Salons are too heavy excuse, so which Revels are suffice vs a garage speaker? I have Revels too. |
Lots of stones thrown in glasshouses all around. calling a ASR member zealot is just plain stupid and counterproductive. They actually have their beliefs anchored to something, a foundation, vs no anchor at all of the “it is all in the ears” people, which isn’t even remotely factual. It is all in your brain, not your ears. But hey, facts never stopped the anti ASR crew before! |
i am misunderstood completely by the two of you ..Sorry,... I never called all ASR members zealots... Dr Choueri and Toole discussed there among others respectable people...I even invited people here to go and read there interesting discussions .. VERIFY... i called zealots on ASR techno SOME babbling people, SOME techno objectivist groupies, because there is some as there is also insulting idiots here, I see some zealots attacking an experienced designer on ASR because of their ignorant zeal they ACCUSED him of designing "distortion" full product to "golden ears"...Incredible arrogance and ignorance together...They are zealots there as there exist idiots here ... I called "idiots" those who insulted Amir here REMEMBER ? They even invited me to shut down my discussion ... Read my posts... i submitted more than 12 articles by 4 physicists and one geologist... And one acoustician... I debated Amir with very precise argument from the 3 articles by MaGNASCO and Oppenheim because my main argument was there...No answer from him about this article save a remark disparaging his content as a mere secondary uninteresting or meaningless acuity test ... VERIFY... I THANKS Amir 16 or 17 times for his set of measures as more than welcome ..Some idiots dont liked that at all... I did not accepted though his claim about predicting ANYTHING about audible qualities from a finite set of measures on the gear ... ( his concept of "transparency" testing and his transparency concept apply to software file not to acoustic listening experience with all interfering aspects from the recording to the room acoustic ) Confusing the lenght of my posts and my clumsiness in english syntax with my alleged ZEAL, when i was winning with deep argument over some zealots of ASR or some idiots here insulting Amir, calling me a zealot is PREPOSTEROUS: I will repeat my criticism from the first post i put here on this thread till today The audio market condioned people to buy gear and focus on gear component, they sell them by the specs they bragged for or by the "musicality" they bragged for, Anyway the division between "subjectivist" and "objectivist" has his roots there in this PAVLOVIAN CONDITIONINGof the attention ON THE GEAR PIECE... The main and real focus in audio, the attention , the scientific aspect of audio must be centered on ACOUSTIC AND PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC science , there is no objectivist and no subjectivist in psycho-acoustic methods...There they take the HEARING SUBJECTIVITY SERIOUSLY , they studied it experimentaly to understand this deep mystery, they dont eliminate subjectivity systematically by blind test and they dont negate his power as delusions or artefacts or illusions even if there is for sure...In the opposite they used subjectivity power and they even proved it to exist.. There is no gear objectivist in psycho-acoustic because they MEASURE all aspect on the controlled environment and all aspects of hearing to understand and APPLIED it to new design or to help with hearing impairments in natural environment experiments.. Then i am not a zealot , a zealot means someone pertaining to an ideology, objectivist measuring ideology or subjectivist listening "naieveté"; my focus is in acoustic training and psycho-acoustic learning... Then i dont like to be called "zealot" by mistake or misunderstanding... Call my posts too long and bad written , this is a FACT... but try yourself in a better english to convey all these complexities and answers in short posts of a few line... It is IMPOSSIBLE...
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