It has happened again. Major tweak and record provider has available a steam cleaner made especially for records. Anybody try steam for cleaning lp’s? What were your results? Since a unit can be had for about $20 at Target, 15% of what the tweak provider is charging, is it worth a try?.
Readers: I always strip the unit devoid of all attachments. The steam path is shorter, hence "hoter" steam. I manulipate the LP with a gloved hand or steam directly on the VPI.
Devoid of all attachments the steam head is "softer" but nonetheless quite strong. The Steamfast SF-227 is designed for very strong "lazer" blast of steam that I reserve for problem LPs, the dirty dozen kind. No one can predict what chemicals in plastic-sizers will do in the future. Yes, I certianly have used the cone but only following a bath in detergents to remove as much as possible the mold release compounds w/ rinses and a wipe down inside and out. I want to lift the grunge for lite scrubbing and reserve blasting for real problems. Vinyl is elastic and responds to heat/water by "swelling" for moments and returning to its initial shape. Uniformity, may mean less swelling so I attempt to steam the surface evenly.
Does anyone know of a dual-voltage hand-held steamer? I'm in Australia where it's 240 volts and believe it or not.........you cannot seem to be able to buy one in this country?
Crem as you can see i use the 90 degree attachment with perfection in conjunction with VPIs 16.5, i aim the steam spray right into the grooves in the direction that the stylus contacts the modulations in the vinyl. I experience no problems using perfection this way. And find i get a better cleaning job on my vinyl using this procedure. Looking forward to your video.
Ok...So far ... But what of the chemicals creating the "smell"? Those chemicals are being leeched than deposited in small quanities on the LP. Do as you like , in 3 or 5 years should you find a brittleness in the steamed LPs be forwarned. I have been doing this work for far longer than anyone elese. To expect the same results the steaming must be duplicated . Your email has convinced me that I must produce a DVD and put a short spot on You Tube. Don't expect it tomorrow but soon. Its not my responsibilty to accept anothers judgement that could have far reaching conequences to their LP collection. Do you think I haven't applied Steam Cleaning with a hose and understood the potential consequences years ago. Say what you will, I am always looking in the tall grass not only for elephants but the mice... I worry about the repercussions before I recommend. All the best.
Tvad : I presume you are using the hose attachment. I recommend the Perfection devoid of all attachments : It produces a oblonged steam cloud I find to be very good at laying a base of pressured steam into the groves. I have been told that putting the allachments into a dishwashers' top tier for a quick wash with a short drying time (montored)reduces the "plastic smell" . The use of attachments does enhanse the possibility of splurts and splaches(condensation in hoses and attachments). All the best.
Somewhere between yestersday and today, we are losing focus. Lots has already been doctumented on Water and Water Threads have outline the various water products , costs and potential advantages. Sorry, nothing that has not already been coverned in the our past posts.
Whats important is spend what you like , the degree of effectiveness over the recommended products , "real distilled water " and Peak Battery Water is questionable except as full rinses. Spend, spend and spend its your right.
I found a good source of water at a local lab supply shop here in Des Moines. Reagent grade type 1 water (Nerl) at 17.50 per gallon. Also deionized purified water that says it meets type 1 standards at $17 for 5 gallons. I guess I'll renig on my plan to use distilled water in the steamer and use deionized at this price. If we have a place like this in Des Moines I'm sure most of you around more major cities have similar options. It avoids shipping costs and it's probably a better grade than battery water? I wonder if Walker and AI ultra pure waters are similar to type 1 reagent grade.
Doak , I deeply thank you : Your/our well-being is more important than money. Maybe Pep Boys can deliver ? Or forward by US post . Please tell Pep Boys to examine to make certian the product is clean. I along with others got a batch that was old and infected with small growths. I screened them out and use it & my old steamer for household cleaning. Many thanks , Charlie
Readers : As I have mentioned ; use what's available, only use no less than true distilled water.
My reasoning:
I recommend Peak Battery Water(now $2.99 a gallon @ PEP Boys): Its distilled, r/o'ed(was in the past) , de-mineraled and de-ionized for about $1.75 more than good commerical grade and a lot safer that supermarket distilled water. Very, very little of the stuff our water engineer friend mentioned to gunk/clog up the hand steamer.
As for my learning curve, it consists 25 years of "on & off" research on the subject of Steam Cleaning/Water related to Certification as the Specialist-In-Charge of Substance Abuse Detection for a the United States Courts Lab.
My work demanded perfection, nothing less was acceptable to the Courts. As the result, I learned by education and practice, all distilled waters are not alike. Much of the distilled water widely available fails purity standards for Labatory use. The only supermarket water my tech's used was to be mixed with pure bleach for cleaning purposes.
The first concern for all, safety ; heating tank explosions were common place from the 18th to the 20th Century when AC became the standard. God knows how many were mamed and died of scalding or explosion on the job. Remember Gentelmen, what we are holding in our hands , in its basic form ,is the same device just a little smaller... and of course safer. But how safe ? I want to keep the odds in our favor. Why? Murphy's Law is always present : Think Challenger.
Personally, I gave a lot of consideration to design factors before making the Perfection recommendation. However, one never knows if Unit A is so-much-more safer than Unit B since nearly all are manufactured over-seas where Murphy likes to sleez. As for me, I do safety checks on the steamers and did retire one (1) due to gunk. Since using Peak, the Perfection and SteamFast 227 have worked perfectly (to today).
The ultimate consideration ... Do what you believe is correct. All the best.
Gents - my 2 cents. By definitiion, steam is pure water vapor just as Sonofjim describes. Dissolved minerals and suspended solids are left behind during evaporation Some volatile organics will be evaporated as well. In practice however, the distillation process is not perfect and entrained liquid bearing minerals and other impurities will carryover - hence the need for multi-stage distillation to arrive at really pure distilled water. Equipment cleanliness, post-production transfer lines and storage vessels also affect product quality. I use the Perfection Steamer with relatively cheap grocery store bought distilled water as part of a muli-step cleaning process. I do empty the steamer after each session so as not to "concentrate up" solids left behind during evaporation. It does spit a bit but I vacuum as a final step - removing any condensed steam phase and liquid distilled water (due to spitting) from the LP surface. This is not to contracdict anyone else's more fastidious or rigorous approach...just what happens to work for me.
Thanks for your response. You echo my summation that the biggest difference would be in the amount of muck left in the tank. This is why distilled water seems a reasonable stopping point for the steamer in this application. It appears that Stltrains has reached the same conclusion. Wouldn't you rather occasionally have to replace a $20 steamer than vaporize, for example, Walker's ultra pure water for $80 per gallon. That kind of mark up has to make even Exxon green with envy.
Here is my opinion on this. I'm not a water expert but I was a licensed water plant operator in Florida for a decade and a half, so I know enough to be dangerous on the subject. Steam will be purer, but there are some compounds that will still present. Some are ionic compounds and will not be removed by boiling. If this was not true we could all make our own pure water at home. Too bad, because it would save us all a lot of money.
However, I do agree with you that the distilled water does work fine for steaming LPs. I think the biggest reason to use as pure of a water source as you can find is to keep the steamer clean and working properly. If you have ever replaced a heating element in an electric water heater you probably have seen how much stuff gets built up over time on the element from compounds in the water. Usually this stuff is calcium and/or magnesium compounds. Anyway, you don't want this stuff in your steamer if you can easily avoid it.
I think that if you follow a process like Stltrains demonstrated, or if you just immediately follow the steam with a cleaning solution like I do, you will keep the bad stuff from the LP and the water in suspension long enough to be able to get it off the record. IME, the best way to get this all off is to vacuum it up.
I also got a perfection steamer for 19.99 yesterday in Des Moines but have yet to try it. I have a question for anyone willing to answer concerning water to use in the steamer. Why is it necessary to use anything more pure than distilled water in the steamer? I understand the potential advantage of rincing with ultra pure water. However, when water is boiled what comes off should be pure water vapor. I would think any minute amount of impurity in distilled water would be left behind in the tank. Isn't steam made up of individual water molecules that have gained enough energy to escape surface tension? These moecules condence together to make the "white" steam we can see. Water vapor itself is not visible. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this eye opening thread. Nice video Slttrains.
Tried this method tonight for the first time - results were EXCELLENT. Thanks to all who have posted information and advice. Opens up the sound and I hear more than ever before. As others have noted, it does expose the flaws or damage in an LP like never before. All the more reason to treat your LPs well.
FYI, I picked up the Perfection brand hand steamer (recommended here) at Walgreen's yesterday. It was on sale for $19.99 here in Chicago. Not sure how long the sale is on.
Last night I used double distilled water, cost about Rs.200 a gallon or USD 5 or so. Along with a final rinse this has made a huge difference. Am beginning to enjoy vinyl I had acquired 25/30 years ago. Must confess that previous attempts to clean the same lps with a VPI 16.5 and the AVI one step were not successful.At last its payback time for the vast sums spent on my vinyl rig. Tiger, Creml, Stltrains and all the others on this thread : Gentlemen thank you for taking my vinyl experience to a new level.
All there is no doubt about it rinsing with high grade water is a very important part of vinyl cleaning. And doing that a few times completes the job for better playback and sound. Sunnyboy I'm glad steaming is working out better for you now. In the end its the sound that matters and nothing else. Steamed cleaned LPs will bring that goal of better sound to those who give it a try. IMHO
Dan_ed : I think you bring a lot to the discussion. The only concern is in regards to putting anything other than H2O in the heating tank. I am not challenging your assertions; it just that All pressured heating tanks can explode something I want to avoid at all costs. I believe Maple uses a "dry" vinegar to mix in the tank of the SF-227. Do as you feel is safe : Please review your directions to avoid problems. All the best.
I whole-heartedly agree with you about the rinse. IMO and IME pure rinse water is where money is best spent. It does not take much water to properly rinse. No flooding is needed. A teaspoon at most. Any more is a waste in my experience. Being judicious with the fluids also helps the vacuum process.
I'm getting very good results steaming with distilled water. It is cheap, fairly pure, and easily found. The Peak battery water is not so easily found and I don't want to spend the kind of money it would take to ship pure water in any quantity. I have also found that 1/2 a teaspoon of white vinegar mixed with the water used in the Perfection keeps the inside clean and the left over water is clearer looking when poured out. I do this every other time I steam.
I was a somewhat reluctant convert to steaming. Acquired a steamer from Argos,in London, UK, for Sterling 29 thats nearly $58, last month.The initial results were somewhat mixed but certainly less than expected. Records were cleaner but a lot of pop and crackle remained.After watching Stltrains video I guess I was not doing it quite right. Was steaming and vacuuming with a VPI 16.5 simultaneously and later using the API one step cleaning solution followed by another round on the RCM. Last night I tried the Stltrain method and wow there was a distinct improvement. Background noise was sharply reduced.Cleaned a 25 year old Indian ghazal lp. The result was pretty spectacular. Achieved almost similar results with a 30 year old Beethoven lp bought in what then was East Berlin. I obviously need to refine my cleaning method. I have not been able to locate a good source for really good quality pure water in New Delhi, India, where I live. This should not be a problem. I suspect with better quality water the results are bound to improve. Am currently using the same distilled water that we drink at home. Thanks to all the stalwarts and Gurus on this thread for further enhancing the vinyl experience for me.
Water Matters : From the above posts it seems few have reviewed the Water posts of the last years. Just remember when ever you put H2O into a heating tank lots of chemical changes occurr ,and when you seen those little black specks chances are thats carbon. Lots of entry points for comtamination, by metal composition , air or water. Look at the debris of a fire -- What do you see Carbon and other junk.
I use Peak because its cheap , widely available and reasonably manufactured to remove most of what ails vinyl. The secret is in the rinse, the rinse cleans aways debris. That's where money matters. Again, Peak does a very good job. Should you want to spend more , go ahead no problem.
Dispite the beating I am taking in some Euro-Circles, use any record cleaning fluid you want. Sure , some have cleaning improvements over others , But Generally, they all work about the same. Use a RCM or not thats' your decision, the American Way , options. Cheers to all, especially Martina@GE. LOL
FYI : Maple-You-Know-What sent me a message using my friends months ago , claiming intent to give full acknowledgement on the Web site. So far nothing...Perhaps I can make them an offer they can not refuse ... Now who said that ??
Readers: For The Record : I invented Steam Cleaning years ago and started writing (ie. doctumention) in 1990's. My work was picked up by Mapleshade and without acknowledgement or royalities, they put together a package based inpart on my scientific work, selling it for $150. That's when "I tuned in" and stopped being passive.
I added my voice to this Thread changing Tigers musing from "Is this worth the money" to "How its done". And from there I have touched on a litany of audio improvements that work when applied as outlined.
Friends, as long as I am given acknowledgement of the invention of Steam Cleaning ,in any public forum , no problem. From now on, I expect my name and work to be acknowledged. Notice : Any intellectial thievery and under the current international standards I have a right to take action : The Law is with me (maybe). I engage in discussion for my pleasure and intend to give away my ideas ,whenever,for free, to those that appreciate Analog. We have been kicked around for $$$$$ too long already.
Mapleshade is Mapleshade, should anyone want to give them money : So be It. The application works. If any one wants to learn how to improve LP playback far greater than that what has been the standard for the past 3/4 Century (for free) : Welcome and stay tuned. The fun is only beginning.
FYI: I am head-first into a revival of Air Bearing Turntables (see Maplenoll Thread) : Cleaning records with bacteria , developing RCM's with pizos , air & brushes , as well as , air scrubbers for Geo Thermal Home Cooling/Heating applications . You know, the Good Green Earth Thing.
Generally, my work is based inpart on Greek, Roman, European/American 18th & 19th Century models including early Soviet engineering, using 21th Century "know-how" & materals . One GT system design costs me nothing build or operate w/ 85% effeciently. Thats less the cost of pipe and specific engineering for a home application. I plan to be nearly-off the Grid and lower my footprint soon , but my Amps stay. For reasons I really don't understand, my ideas work out of the box , period. The same goes for much of what I until sombody decides to ---- on me. Such is life.
How about this : Could I put the Geo-Thermal application(s) up for sale , by auction , on AG , with a reserve of 5 million Euros? Any takers ? Ok, I'll split P/P and AG costs. If you think I'm kidding put up the money .
The act of invention always been in the family; Grandad invented a door appliance that is used to open & close most everydoor in the world, just think of what thar's worth. He invented industrial applications, tweaked car building methods , earning $1000 x the weekly average in the Great Depression before his death to strep in '33. Sorry, Pop-Pop you should have been into Merk rather than Yellow Cab. My cousin, Steve, patiented a "green" side walk that cleans it self of ice & snow. So what does this have to do with Analog ? Well ...
Yes, Tiger started the Thread and I changed it as well as how LPs are cleaned forever. Its all the the genes ... So lets gets started... And when your on "You Tube" don't forget to mention me. All the Best. Charles Rehm (crem1), REHM UNLIMITED LLC, Cub Hill, MD . "Tomorrow Is One Idea Away" tm.
Kudos to Stltrains for putting together an excellent demo of steam cleaning! Anyone following his method will undoubtedly get outstanding results.
I just want to offer a few ideas because I use a DIY, hand spun, RCM. Hopefully, people will understand that they can do whatever works most conveniently for them.
1. I steam LPs dry, right out of their sleeves. But I spin them, by hand, probably at no less than 100 rpm or so. This means I can get the steam closer and in the same grooves longer. I have seen no movement or creep by the vinyl whatsoever.
2. Right after steaming and before a vacuum, I do apply a cleaning solution while the record is still wet from the steam. This is maybe a tablespoon of solution and I do a light scrub to make sure stuff loosened by the steam is still in solution. I then vacuum everything up with one attachment. There is nothing left by my RCM, the LP is completely dry.
3. Now I apply maybe a teaspoon of ultra pure water as a rinse and move this around the surface with a cheapy VPI felt brush. Then vacuum this up with a second attachment. Again, the vinyl is completely dry after a few revolutions.
4. I'm really paranoid, so I completely cover the LP label during the whole process.
Using this approach and my DIY RCM I have found no reason to apply anti-static treatment (probably depends on where you live) or wait for the vinyl to dry, before playing an LP. I go from RCM to platter. I do use a Zerostat after play.
I hope people reading this will take away that the main process is the steam. It seems that whatever happens before or after is just gravy on the pasta. However, vacuuming immediately after steaming is undoubtedly a major advantage.
My apologies to you Tiger. I was going to start a new thread on steaming by showing the video but thought it would be unfair to this thread. From reading the thread it seems as though Crem states he was the founding father of steaming.
I was really hoping by doing this, that some who saw how easy it is to steam clean LPs wound give it a try by making the video showing steaming in motion. I can hear the difference in my steam cleaned LPs and surly want to share that with others and for no other reason. For me music enjoyment is the bottom line and nothing else. I hope i did not ruffle any feathers as that was not my intention at all.
Thanks Tvad you are so kind, yes i work hard to get the best sound i can with my vinyl and system like i'm sure you also do. Trying to pass the ease of lp cleaning on to others.
All with the help of Crem and this thread i have discovered that the use of steam in your record cleaning method is priceless for superior LP playback and sound. I made this video with the help of my wife to show just how easy it is to get your LPs clean so you can get the very best in sound and playback. You dont need a record cleaning machine but it makes it easier for me. Thanks again Crem for starting this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6OjtKUZ048
Photon46 i came to that same thought after seeing the left over water in my steamer after a cleaning session. It was obvious that the water in your steamer gets residue from the interior of the unit. I was using Nerl lab grade water for my whole routine of steam cleaning. Now i use distilled water in the steamer and use Nerl water for two manual rinses. I also am saving cash not using the expensive lab water in the steamer. With no loss of sound that i can hear from eather way of steaming. I believe the double rinse with ultra pure water makes a marked improvement in the sound of a LP.
Tvad like i just mentioned above another pure water source is NERL Ultra Pure Reagent Grade Water at http://www.nerl.com/product/water.aspx?id=34.
I'm wondering how much benefit one gains from the use of ultra-pure water vs. using the Peak battery water mentioned earlier in this thread. Every time I use my steamer with the Peak water, there is a small amount of residue which comes out of the water reservoir upon draining immediately after use. If I can see residue after such a short period of contact, how much advantage is to be had using increasingly purer water? Are others noticing this rapid a contamination of their water?
Morphy72: This whole warp thing has me in the dark . I have never lost an LP to cleaning. If it was trashed before its a lost cause. Gunged & goo'ed , they can come out like new. Soon I shall construct a "Gem" record cleaning stand , applying its use to steaming. Time will tell if its good or not.
I would steam the records propped by a support only on its label surface, instead of its entire surface as a mat would do. Would this be more dangerous to potentially warp the records easily under the hot of the steam? (and left them warped since I've read about some curvature becoming again normal after the steaming process).
Doak : Murray is one of the smartest/nicest persons in Audio and life in general. He is a unsung national treasure of music. The Goverment should create a Special Citizens Metal for him.
this is interesting. i like the long spout and the downward pointing tip. It seems like it gives me more control. I have not had any problem with sputters or sprays. I do change out water each time i use it and use distilled/ro water. In either case, steaming provides a great enhancement to your cleaning regime. On an earlier post, i will point out if you have some mold, you might try a weak bleach solution. Works well with removing mold. I use it with a mild detergent as a prewash step in front of my normal cleaning regime.
OK I FINALLY "get" it: NO attachments at all - not even the short (8" or so) one.
I just did 6 LPs using NO attachments and it was a revelation - NO more spitting, MUCH more precise. After using the "spout" I thought that the steamer with no attachments was't putting out as much, but that is NOT so. What's going on is that is putting out a very fine STEAM, no condensation, just steam.
Thanks Charles for the pointer/refinement.
I read you letter to Positive Feedback and saw the mention of Murray Zeligman. Several years ago I owned a preamp built by Murray. It was based on a Dynaco PAS and it was killer. Had the pleasure of talking with him a couple of times - quite a guy.
Steamers: Keep in mind that using attachments may increase the chance of sputtering. I recommend not using any attachments. A re-read of the thread provides lots of free advice.
Volleyguy i cant agree more with you on using a RCM. I used a lazy Susan and a shop vac for years. I have acquired most of my favorites and realized that the ease of a RCM is priceless if you are going to be cleaning a lot of LPs. I usually wait till if have 20 or so and then do my steam cleaning method. But i sure can understand others being happy cleaning LPs there way.
Bottom line if you are going to use vinyl playback as your main source the first step is ultra clean LPs.
A RCM in conjunction with steaming is my choice for sure. I would not be able to scrub and steam at the same time the first step in cleaning for me.
davidsss I think the tick is sometimes maybe mold. I often wonder if the heat is enough to release the mold? I think dirt as well and one guy menttioned not needing a RCM. I still do not regret buying mine. It just works even better now.
Yep, DS, I agree with your findings. Many of those scratches become catch basins for the dirt and crap that cause ticks or pops when the come 'round to meet the stylus. Blast that gunk out with steam and it is surprising how much extraneous noise is gone.
As far as using tougher cleaners, I've not found a need to go beyond an alcohol-based cleaner which I use right after a steaming, while the moisture is still on the LP. I vacuum this up after some light scrubbing and then follow with a good rinse with high purity water. I'm finding that any clicks or pops beyond this are most likely damage.
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