To what level of "top" phono stage are you referring? The Graham Slee Reflex is a dedicated MM phono stage. (Yes, you can use HOMC cartridges with it but it's designed specifically for MM cartridges.)
Tom |
Should have done my homework... The Reflex isn't even in the same league as a Jadis.
But for those on a budget, I guess the Reflex is one (dedicated MM stage) to consider.
Tom |
Hi, Axel. Given the replies to the original post, I'll let my first question stand: To what level of "top" phono stage are you referring?
The discussion seems to be about phono stages in the range of $1000 to $2000 USD and thus, the Graham Slee Reflex is an example of what you were asking about. (It's clearly designed for MM cartridges.) The Jadis phono stage reference was a bit misleading. Or is the Jadis the "top" level you were originally asking about?
Tom |
Ah, now we have a reference. What you suggest seems reasonable for a manufacturer to offer for sale. (You would certainly know better than I.) But I think you answered your own question as to why they don't: The lack of offerings is most likely a financial decision, not a design decision. If they don't see the market need for a high end dedicated MM stage they aren't going to bother. I guess they don't read the posts from you and Raul. '-)
A question for you, Axel: Do you think that a high quality SUT or headamp could provide the gain and loading needed to turn a high end MM stage into a high end MC stage? Or does the use of external transformers or headamps degrade the signal too much to be considered acceptable for a high end phono stage?
Tom |
Lewm, my mistake for not including the intended recipient in my post. (I don't post here at Audiogon very often so am not used to the continuous thread format.) I was trying to get a sense from Axel (and others) if it was worth the added expense of having dedicated phono stages for several LOMC cartridges, each with a unique amplification and loading requirement. That's making the assumption (and the analogy to a dedicated MM stage) that to get the best sound from a phono stage, the design must be specific to the cartridge.
If so, then the question might also be asked: Dedicated phono-pre for (specific) LOMC only?
Tom |
So it seems that a quality SUT, or, a high quality dedicated MC phono stage, is the key for MC cartridges. Since MC cartridge designs include a fairly wide range of output voltages and internal impedances, and thus gain and loading requirements, it may necessitate a range of dedicated MC phono stages if someone wants to listen to a variety of LOMC cartridges.
Too bad, because that sounds expensive. Is the added expense (of having multiple dedicated MC phono stages) worth the perceived improvements in sound?
Tom |
Hi, Axel and Lewm. My comment on the need for separate MC phono stages is based on Axel's comment that a SUT degrades the signal, thus my assumption that a dedicated phono preamp (for a specific range of LOMC parameters) would be a better way to handle the amplification and loading requirements. One gain/loading setting probably isn't the best way to handle a wide range of LOMC cartridges, not if optimal performance is desired. And if switches must be used to optimize the LOMC signal, it is not acceptable for a high end preamp, which was the premise of this thread. So, it appears that if the logic is used that a dedicated MM stage is needed (to avoid having additional switching for MC cartridge requirements) then dedicated LOMC stages are needed to avoid having additional switching.
I bring this up because it seems that what is implied, Axel, is that MM is inherently a better cartridge because it doesn't require additional switching or transformers. But a dedicated LOMC phono stage would eliminate the need for switching or a transformers as well. Wouldn't that put a MC cartridge on par with a MM cartridge?
Tom |
This thread has been informative and I'm better understanding some of the nuances of phono stage design, both MM and MC architecture.
And I'm beginning to see the value in having a dedicated MC phono preamplifier if LOMC cartridges are preferred. Why bother with 40 dB gain and 47K loading for MM cartridges. The design would, at most, have binding posts to change loading resistors. Being able to change the amplification (gain) would be handy but not necessary if the output voltages of the preferred cartridges were within a fairly close range.
Is such a phono preamplifier available?
Tom |
Oops. Meant to include a thank you to Axel and Lewm for answering with understandable information. And Axel, I didn't intend to sidetrack the thread with my question about dedicated MC phono preamps. Just seemed like a similar question in that having phono stages designed specifically for the type of cartridge engine makes sense.
What I'm not sure about is whether you'd be able to hear the difference (as Lewm suggests) between a dedicated minimalist design vs a preamp with variable gain/loading options. I often read that it does make a difference, that having switches or plugs or jumpers degrades the signal, but as Lewm also suggests, if the problem is that noticeable, why do even high end manufacturers provide gain/loading flexibility in their phono preamps?
Tom |
Hi, Lewm, nicely stated explanation. And after reading Raul's responses again I see what was implied, that convenience may override preamp performance. I can certainly understand the convenience factor.
But Axel, I'm confused a bit by your comment that the 3160 has a jumper to change from 40 dB to 60 dB of gain. Are jumpers considered to be acceptable, that is, they do not degrade signal path, at least in the amplification portion of the circuit? Or did I interpret your comment incorrectly?
Tom |
Hi, Axel, it was this comment that I probably misunderstood: "I have the idea that Raul will be the person to explain to you in his words why he has opted for two **dedicated** phono-pre option in his 3160 and NOT a one-serves-all (just with a jumper to switch from 40 to 60dB)." I understood the portion within the parentheses to mean that the 3160 does not use switches except for a jumper to set gain. My mistake.
Tom |
Hi, Lewm, it was my first reply to Axel that mentioned the Reflex as a dedicated MM phono preamp. And it was also me that too quickly dismissed the Reflex as not being in the same league as a preamp costing multiples of the Reflex. After seeing where the discussion was going I put the Reflex back in the mix. But apparently it's not what Axel considered "top end" when he asked the original question.
I had, at one time, considered the Reflex as the basis for a phono stage configuration, intending to use a headamp such as the Elevator or a step-up transformer, of which there are many, to run LOMC cartridges. I ended up with a phono preamp that has a relatively simple architecture but handles both MM and LOMC cartridges using jumpers and resistor screw posts.
You might ask over at the Vinyl Asylum about the Reflex and MM cartridges.
Tom |
Hi, Raul, I was wondering about the design of the 3160: What level of gain is bult into the LOMC side of the preamp? It seems that 60 dB or so is the typical level of gain for many (most?) LOMC stages and I was curious what you use in the 3160. Thank you for your time.
Tom |
Thank you for the reply, Raul. You and the others have been kind in answering all my questions. Based on what I've learned here I feel comfortable that I can make more informed decisions in future phono preamp purchases. Compromises abound in audio components to meet the needs of price, performance, and convenience, and I'm getting a better sense of what to look for.
Regards,
Tom |
Hi, Axel, it makes sense that newcomers to vinyl would benefit from using MM cartridges initially. And having a high quality, affordable (but dedicated) MM phono stage would be something they could continue to use as they upgraded the turntable and other components. The Graham Slee Reflex and Elevator appears to be one option that fits the upgrade path. I don't have the experience to offer an opinion as to whether it's high end or not.
But I think that for many people starting out, committing to MM cartridges due to a specialized phono preamp is not a comfortable decision. I know when I purchased my first "real" phono preamp, I chose one that had a wide range of gain and loading options because I wanted to be able to experiment with different cartridges without having to purchase additional components; i.e., a SUT or headamp.
But it seems (based on the discussions of this thread) that a dedicated MM phono preamp may not be the best design for adding LOMC capabilities, thus requiring a completely different LOMC preamp to get optimal sound. There's no simple (or affordable?) solution. '-) |
Hi, Lewm, I didn't offer the Jadis as a reference, Axel mentioned it in his initial post. I checked some prices and one their premium designs (JP80MC) was approaching $20,000 USD. That's when I retracted my suggestion of the Reflex as an example of a high quality dedicated MM stage. Not really fair to compare a $1300 USD phono preamp with one costing more than ten times that. Or maybe it is... '-)
Tom |
