D-SONIC SOA Class-D Core Amps. The best Class-D ?

Well, i suppose everyone will say their product is better than the
competition. Whether in fact better or just different, a nice product on
paper.

"They are often compared to Hypex."

Compared where?

A Google search on Albetec amplifiers turns up nothing I can see. Would like to read more.

Ok, I see now the name is abletec not albetec. That seems to show more.

Abletec

So is it confirmed or not that the D Sonics use vanilla Pascal amps? No differences?

Have not heard but do not doubt that high end Class D technology is not fully mature despite being highly competitive currently and that newer CLass D amp designs will only get even better over time.

I do think that sound of better tube amps I have heard (like VAC and ARC) and SS amps tends to converge pretty close to "the ultimate sound", so I do not in particular care too much about one technologies sound versus another, although SS amps that "sound like tube amps" specifically are not very common. I have a pair of TAD 125 hibachi monoblocks also that I run in my second system that is as good as I have heard in regards to a SS amp "sounding like a tube amp". Of course I run a DAC with a tube output section there also so that helps.

Watts per dollar on the dsonics are impressive.

I'm getting confused.

Are the new D-Sonics using a proprietary design from bottom up or using some other base Class D amp now other than Icepower?

Who designed and makes teh SOA Core amp? I get the impression D-sonic uses it but acquires it externally, like Icepower before.

Google search turns up no info outside D-sonic, 6 moons and this thread on SOA Class D Core amps.

"there are inherent proplems wirh pulse modulation type Class D amps regarding linearity and feed back in the upper bands that compromise music quality"

Maybe. I am not expert enough to say. I believe Class D amps can get even better than current certainly in that the technology is not fully mature. Then there is always theory versus realization which are not equivalent. Not everything newer is necessarily better. DD would seem to be the only source of info so far. Truths become apparent over time with greater exposure. We'll see. I would like to learn more though and find the d-sonics an even more interesting product now than before. Many already consider even current generation Class D amps to be reference quality and competitive there (I would agree based on experience to date) though I am of the opinion that no technology is perfect or certainly equivalent. The subjective descriptions of teh sound of these amps versus current better Icepower designs so far indicate differences in sound for sure, which is not surprising. Lots that goes into what is "better" and what individuals prefer. Too early in the game to know for sure with D-sonic I would say though again a most interesting and competitive product at this early stage.

THis would be an interesting trial application for Steve at Empirical Audio's affordable reclocker gadget. That should help assure being in a good place from a jitter perspective I would expect. HE offers a free trial period. I would be interested to know if it helps.

Synchro Mesh

WHoops, ignore above post to wrong thread regarding synchro mesh.

The thing with D-sonic is they are merely packaging stock Class D component amps, both Icepower and now abletec. They appear to have upgraded the components they use to do so these days compared to prior when IcePower only, at least as described for the abletec. DDs background as he describes seems in line with that. HE is not an amp designer so not likely to add circuitry to whatver component amp board they use, Ice, abletec or otherwise. Stock icepower is clearly inferior to enhanced versions from BC, Wyred and others with beefed up power supplies and input boards to make tube amp friendly. Stock icepower is not tube amp friendly for example at 10K input impedance. abletec input impedance is closer to that of Wyred for example now as I read ie somewhat less than 60K ohms, that is a clear advantage over stock Icepower. There may be others based on new technology used.

So be careful comparing stock Icepower to enhanced versions to other perhaps newer Class D designs. Each has significant differences. M-sonic alone using stock Icepower amps is not a good indicator of what IcePower can do.


I did a lot of research prior to springing on BC ref1000m amps, including d-sonic. The devil is in the details. New d-sonic amps are interesting as noted. I would expect them to outperform stock icepower in some cases like with tube pre-amps. Harder to call at present for other cases. Time will tell.

Some of my favorite amps from over the years came from norway... TANDBERG.

Audiozen,

You seem to do a lot of research related to CLass D amps. Are you involved in teh industry in some way, or just a motivated consumer? Just wondering. Thanks.

Don't believe everything someone tells you or you read on a forum. :-)

If they gain traction, I'm sure well hear about them in due time.

I suspect they should/will.

Assessing different technical approaches for Class D seems to me like a technical assessment of ice cream, chocolate versus vanilla. You can read and analyze all you want but won't know what you have exactly until you try it. Often the case with home audio gear. Each company has its own design or marketing focus to help distinguish from the pack. Fun stuff!

Not all B&O icepower modules are the same. Some are newer, some are older. SOmetimes, different ones are used in teh same line at same time, like BC ref500m versus ref1000m.

Have not kept up on new Icepower development though. Have they stopped refining Icepoweer at this point? Certainly there is more and more competition all the time now it seems, which is to be expected. The landscape might be totally different in just a few years. Not uncommon for companies that forge new frontiers to fall by the wayside over time as others follow.

"It appears that B&O has not moved beyond pulse width modulation, which is the area that amp enigineers have focused on in recent years claiming that PWM has hit its limit regarding the problems with PWM such as feedback and noise in the upper frequencies, as well as RFI/EMI problems. "

I wonder if B&O or other engineers still dealing with it would agree that PWM has hit its limit? No surprise the competition would claim that.

I can vouch that Bel Canto ref1000m Icepower based amps do very well in regards to RFI/EMI. I have had those problems in the past. THe Class Ds would not be in my system if that had turned out to be a problem. There are many Class D amps out there, including ones that use stock Icepower, that have been reported to have that issue, but apparently it is not terminal for all Icepower amps.

Pro audio would seem like a very practical application for class d amps. Efficiency is usually paramount there.

If it works well and sounds good, then that js the main requirement for home audio. The proof or not would be in the listening.

I'd be curious to know what "mods" Roland and others do with Pascal amps. With Icepower, the "mods" make all the difference. I would expect newer generation Class D modules to be much better out of the box to start, at least on paper.

"Interesting to note that even with the sound quality of Class D amplifier circuits continuing to improve, Rowland still chooses to design their best reference grade power amps using their very advanced switched mode power supplies with Class A/B output stages."

Probably a smart move. Not all high end audio guys are willing to accept or care for Class D amps. Class A/B amps of course can also sound good and physically more imposing as well. They also will probably have to cost a lot as well to match Class D performance being lower efficiency. Does that mean they are better? I suppose it depends. Dunno.

Have not rad article yet, but would love a compare of newer D-Sonics versus other more pricey newer Class D technology as well as against the current old guard of Icepower, etc.

How are the good old and seemingly still quite popular Wyred Class D amps faring sound wise these days against the newer breeds?

I heard a newer Audio Research Class D amp at Lyric in NYC recently running a pair of mid sized Nola speakers.

The audition was too brief to draw any final conclusions but the sound was quite promising. Not sure I heard anything that uniquely distinguished it from others, but it seemed a solid performer. The Nola's were perhaps not quite my cup of tea in that I generally tend to prefer simpler designs with fewer drivers, so the overall coherency was not quite top notch IMHO based on the brief audition, but in lieu of more facts I would tend to not attribute that to the amp as much as the speakers.

I have not seen many users reviews or comments yet on how either Abletec or Pascal amps sound, much less compared to others. Technical advancements in design and execution is a good omen, but not enough alone to determine who the winners are or will be. It takes time usually before enough data points to estimate the true order of new things becomes apparent.

So Mcbuddah and Jorge's D-sonics are Abletec based then?

ANy detail comparisons to any other amps in addition to those mentioned already are appreciated. Thx.

I recall looking at specs on line for either newer pascal or abletec (do not rremember which) and being impressed at the significantly higher switching frequency specified compared to "prior" generation Class D, like most Icepower amps out there currently, including my Bel Canto Ref 1000m monoblocks. That to me signaled technical progress that enabled sonic improvements, especially in the higher frequency treble range if done "right". I would expect good results due to technical progres if done right, so am interested to audition these newer products at some point, especially the more affordable ones.

McB,

I find my Class D amps to be very revealing of what it is fed. Definitely fertile ground on which to tweak! Thanks for the details.

McBuddah, you got the stage and my attention at a minimum. :^)

Would like to hear more impressions from those who own or have heard more of these newer Class D amps.

The huge price range for amps built around the same common core modules is an interesting thing in of itself.

Assuming different modules used, like ABletec or Pascal or Icepower, make a difference in the sound, which I would expect to be a reasonable assumption, it bothers me that D-Sonic is not more forthcoming about what goes into what models that they sell.

If it were the case that D-Sonic had an identifiable "house sound" that they always target, it would matter less to me, but I would still want to know what is the same and what is different technically.

I can see where this policy would make it harder for someone to do a meaningful review of value.

My guess is D-sonic is marketing on price/vale mainly and in fact may do quite well as a result.

SOme more user reviews would be nice. User reviews where user opens up the box and identifies what is inside specifically even more so.

Yea, I guess what I am trying to say about the Triangles is that they are very fast, transparent and neutral sounding and do what they do extremely well. They would certainly allow the inherent sound of the vintage Marantz to shine through. What they (small Titus model specifically) will not do, is much below 50hz or so. A very nice match to any 20 watt SS receiver. I have a spare yamaha 20 watt receiver that I have used them with and gotten very good results. I think the somewhat warmer sounding Marantz would be even better.

C'mon...we know you're out there!!!!!!

Well, in lieu of actually hearing the vendor is saying they both will sound pretty much alike, FWIW.

Maybe. Time will tell for sure I suppose. How bad can any of them sound? I suspect they all sound pretty good. Generous return policies/satisfaction guarantees always help, especially when so much is still unknown.

Jorge's testimonial is not unlike what I experienced with my first and current Class D amps.

If that sounds appealing to the buyer, I suspect one has little to lose.

Class D and the better tube amp combos I have heard tend to have a lot of similarities, but its a stretch to say that Class D sounds like tubes or vice versa.

ANy speaker that attempts to deliver extended bass out of a small box should benefit the most in general from a good Class D amp. NHT probably qualifies.

It generally requires a large and expensive quality tube amp with MANY tubes to accomplish the same that way. Other speaker designs that are easier to drive are best suited for most tube amps. Some like some planars, might do best either way.

" the d-sonic is just much more powerful. so the dynamics are, understandably, far and beyond 70 watts, of course. and compared to the parasound a-21, although another great piece, which I sold years ago, the d-sonic is still the better amp for me"

Power and watts speak for themselves. WHen you need it, you need it. USually the more, the better.

Hi eff Class D amps in general provide power/watts in a small and one would think relatively affordable package compared to big costly heavy monster amps needed prior.

I suspect one might always nitpick, but if a good amp with lots of power/watts is what's called for, most any modern decent Class D amp may be the solution.

There is a big difference between a scenario where an amp is challenged to drive speakers and one where it does it effortlessly, as these high power Class Ds in general are capable of. A lot of the other good things we like about good sound just seems to go along with that, detail, imaging, etc. Overall system synergies and toanl balance, etc. is still something to deal with, but if the amp is up to the task of driving the speakers, that opens up many other ways to address as needed.

Little down side in trying on of these things I think if high power and efficiency is what is needed, whatever might be inside. I'd rather know, but in general the basic benefits should exist with most similar spec'ed amp boards used I would think. Tweaks from there might be different?

THat's what I'm thinking. I'm curious if others agree or not?

The thing I wonder is, if one is in the market for a "good" Class D amp, why would you not try a less expensive solution like D-Sonic first before investing traditional big bucks in an amp? Part of the benefit is the size and efficiency of Class D versus a traditional monster amp. Yes, there is a lot of new technology still that goes into it, but a lot can seemingly be saved by not having to have a big massive box with large heat sinks, etc. in order to get similar performance because the Class D is so much more efficient. THat should translate to lower cost over time as these things become more common for use in cases where monster amps were needed prior.

"What's the point of a class D amp that has all of the disadvantages of a class A/B design?"

Its newer more efficient technology.

That gets you a lot ways further than prior.

The Martin case just appears to be a high end audio attempt to take it to its limits, which is probably even further beyond what most people are looking for than otherwise.