Cost no Object but Small Room

Good to know,. hope all goes well Rives.

We have had interest from the previous dealer in Hong Kong. Unfortunately the prior ownership of Talon did not deliver product on a timely fashion to them, thus I believe they may be a bit gun shy and just waiting to see how things go with us. I can't say I blame them given what I discovered about their history with Talon prior to our acquisition. I am hopeful they give us a chance as I think they will value the integrity of Rives Audio behind the company.

Rives: Actually I saw the report awhile ago and actually did investigate prior that whether Talon had dealers in Hong Kong: did find one who said they were so previous to your acquisition but still not yet representing the new product line etc.?

We did a room set up at RMAF with a pair of Talon Hawks and a Thunderbird subwoofer. The key was the integration with the Rives sub-PARC. The room received a Positive Feedback Oasis award for great sound. I'm more than a little particular about sound quality and I am usually disappointed with sound at shows, even when I can treat the room, we are still so constrained. This was truly and amazing sound and the room was just a little larger than yours, 13 x 19 roughly.

Here's the report from RMAF.

Mike earlier at the beg of this thread suggested the Coltranes which after some thought would be just too big. Has anyone tried the Marten design Altos or Miles 3?

Smile.

Alternatively, who'll win the Melbourne Cup on the first Tuesday in Novemeber. ;-)

Regards,

From what I heard at HE-2997,the Dynaudio C-1's were way more than just dynamic.

You are from the future?!? Who sent you? Who sent you! What do you want with us!?!

From what I heard at HE-2997,the Dynaudio C-1's were way more than just dynamic.

In my opinion a small room calls for speakers with a well-controlled radiation pattern and/or smooth power response, as inevitably the bulk of the reverberant energy will arrive earlier than in a larger room.

ATC SCM 20's are quite nice in that sized envornment but so are many other good near fields. The Confidence C1 was another good suggestion. (If you like a dynamic sound)

Definitely check out the Dynaudio Confidence C1 and its kin. They sounded incredible at HE2007. If they sound that great in a hotel room, I bet they sound even better in a home environment. The only thing I thought sounded better was the Wilson W/P 8.

Good luck.

Thanks to all. Forgot to mention I listen to a wide variety, rock, all jazz including fusion, blues, and bit of classical. Volume wise, quiet but enuff to fill the room, to loud but never ear splitting, rock concert levels.

Wslam: thans for the offer and will definitely will follow up w/ u.

OverKill: thanks for taking the time...
1. re cross overs, digital cross over if I am not mistaken takes place only in the PCM domain? If DSD, doesn't it lead to conversion to first PCM? If so, then I am a bit hesitant as my front end converts the other way and going
back & forth is something to avoid.
2. Cant pull out by 3 m unfortunatelyas if I did then distance to the listening postion would be about 5.5 feet..
3. DIY: I can see that, but not for me.

Audiokinesis: agree, that was what i feared and found logical, ...thus Mbls are probably out.

Do have headphone amp/USB DAC benchmark connected to my PC, and I use it when its very late at nght and I do not want to disturb others, via AKG 701s. By the way, a small system consisting of the the above sans the PC but instead the MSB modified IPOD which outputs digitally. This is a very portable at least in terms within the house (perhaps a bit too much for travel though) with suprisingly good sound.

OOPS - The web site for headphones is Headphones.com - the place is Headroom. Sorry

Here's another way to go. Get a dedicated headphone amp,and the best earphones and you will have sound that's better than any speaker you can put in that room. Check out Headroom.com for great advice. If you want music without headphones, almost any speaker will do, but your serious listen will be with your headphones. If you never heard top notch earphone sound, you should give it a listen. You will be mighty impressed.

Omnis, dipoles, bipoles, and polydirectional speakers work best when they can be set up such that the onset of side-wall and rear-wall reflections reaches the listener's ears at least 10 milliseconds after the first-arrival sound. The 10 milliseconds isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but a fuzzy rule-of-thumb based on psychoacoustics. Actually this applies to all speakers, but is more likely to be a concern with omnis, dipoles, bipoles, and polys. The 10 milliseconds corresponds to a path length of about 11 feet, so in other words you'd want the early reflection paths to be at least 11 feet longer than the direct path from the drivers to your ears (including the reflection off the wall behind the listener, if possible). This is usually not practical in a small room.

In my opinion a small room calls for speakers with a well-controlled radiation pattern and/or smooth power response, as inevitably the bulk of the reverberant energy will arrive earlier than in a larger room. Too much of a spectral discrepancy between direct and reverberant energy can give rise to listening fatigue in any room, but especially in a small one.

I'm presently working on a design intended to perform well in a small room, but I'm shooting for a much lower price point. Nevertheless, the above principles of acoustics and psychoacoustics are applicable even to speakers with exotic drivers.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Any thoughts on using MBL's in this situation?

I have a small room too and recently contacted John DeVore at DeVore Fidelity about his line of speakers, particularly the Silverbacks. He claims that they would work well in rooms about the size of yours. Don't know if you have any dealers in HK, but lots of folks rave about these speakers and I hope to check them out in the not too distant future.

Hi Henry,

I am biased as I manufacture speakers and electronics but I can still offer you good advice!
Here are a few general points.
(1)
Near field listening in smaller rooms requires a very coherent sound reproduction. Usually two way will be better than three way, less drivers rather than more.
(2)
A full "ranger" used with one or two subs with an active crossover relieves the full range driver of all the X-max consumming hard work. Forget any speaker system where you add on a subwoofer and leave the "main speaker" still working hard in the bass.
(3)
Room correction has a more noticable benefit in smaller rooms and can integrate subs very effectivly.
(4) If you can pull the speakers out from the wall by about 3 feet Open Baffle has a big advantage over box designs in small rooms as OB only generate 50% as much "un-wanted " energy as box designs. You still get all the direct radiated sound and slam and dynamics, but the neighbours dont hear it!
(5) Some amazing results can be obtained with DIY designs if you have access to skilled craftsmen to do the assembly and finishing work. This is more a custom design project but if you plan to stay in the house a while you can justify some serious brickwork!
(6)Is it only your decision or are other family members having a say?
(7) What type of music and what volumes do you generally like?
(8)What is the construction of the room.
(9)Mains power ; I can recomend a dedicated distribution box (6 or 8 way) with seperate magnetic circuit breakers for each line. This allows you to run a heavy duty (ideally made up of multiple 1mm guage each in seperate teflon dielectric) solid core silver power cord from the power meter box as it enters your home directly to your listening room. The box should have heavy duty brass buss bar clamps that bolt down onto the ends of your equipment power cords and this eliminates the whole mains plug / wall socket interface. Try this before investing in big buck power conditioners.

Good luck and check out overkillaudio.com for a few more ideas!

All the best

Derek Wilson
Overkill Audio.

Kharma Exquisite Mini offer comforting lush above all else. You can't go loud with Kharma Mini as it won't slam but EXQUISITELY sweet.

Magico Mini is very accurate and musical, music is presented as is no sugar coated yet very exciting and wonderful prat. True MAGIC.

hi henryhk,

my Mini II just got passed the 200hours mark.

Given we are both in HK, I understand the room size issues very well. I am also moving, but won't be moving for another 8 months. My future room should be bigger and will be dedicated. Initially I thought the Mini I may not be able to fill the room. But I am *sure* the Mini II can. The Mini II are significantly better. See the link:

http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?p=7055#7055

feel free to email me.

The smaller JM Labs are worth a listen.

Finally moved now. Still in unpacking mode and haven't even set up my 2 channel system in the study yet...too many boxes to clear! However I can already see without even listening that my current Kharma 2.3Fs are too large in physical size. So the search should soon begin. Here are the ones I have so far identified that I am considering after some research. Things to consider are footprint size (but height less of an issue), somewhat but not complete nearfield situation, needs to be driven by my Darts, even if not large should not be designed so that must be needs to be placed far away from backwall (like the Parsfails), etc.

Wilson Duette: didn;t like Wattpuppy 7s when driven Spectral but perhaps different given different tweeter: the fact they are designed so that placing near the back wall is fine is interesting to me
Sonus Faber Guaneri Homage
Magic Mini 2 (about as big as it can get in terms front to back 18 inches): Can the Darts drive these? I do notice fellow goner Wslam has this set up and I don;t listen at ear splitting levels..
Eben X-3: never heard them myself
Kharma Mini Exquisite
Avalon Indra (perhaps too big)
The Gallo towers (are these in commercial production yet?)

Among these I have auditioned briefly at dealerships, Magico Mini 2, Sonus Faber Guaneri, Kharma Mini, though need to revisit them all again.

Any comments?

I guess so James, but its just too hard for me.

You might want to consider the Rockport Merak.

I remember seeing some of Alon Wolf's designs sold on here several years ago. I wondered who he was, and now he has the hottest speaker on the market...funny how things turn out.

James, no I have not. Too scared to do that. Too uncertain, don;t know whom to go to, and resale value would be circumspect I would imagine.

Jim:
I remember starting out down the path of a serious CD player, Metronome was always at the top of my short list, but at the time, no one in my area even heard of it.

I have to remained focused here, speakers in small rooms is what I'm really curious about.

Although, I'm sure I'll have to go back to hear the Kallista rig some time...:)

Henry:
Have you thought about making or having a speaker built for you upon specifications?

I'm toying around with an idea of having a Jensen Onken cabinet built, where I could try several 15 to 16" coaxials a try. A vintage approach you might call it.

Yes it was all ARC. I can't really compare them vs Darts as it was two different systems, two different rooms and again I have not had the opp to hook my Dart gear with the Minis. But suffice to say ARC was incredibly impressive and I do love my Darts.

James:
That was probably the "entry level" Metronome CD3-Signature - same model Steve Hoffman uses and says it's the best 1-box player he has ever heard. Thanks for your nice compliment.

Not familar with the solid state amp/preamp but you're right - the CD3 is accurate & musical. You would be knocked out by the Kalista transport & C2A tube DAC.

More Met info at http://www.tmhaudio.com/Metronome.htm

Jim Ricketts/tmh audio

Henry, that's interesting you heard them with ARC gear. Do you remember the configuration of the system? Was it all ARC?

I was curious about the CJ line as well, they make high powered monoblocks recently reviewed in HiFi+.
I wonder what a pair of the 270 watt monoblocks would be like? I wonder how much heat those amps put out?

As for the Metronome cdp, I don't recall the exact model number, I just went to the website to check to see if I would recognize it, but wow, Metronome has expanded quite a bit since I last saw them. It was a larger 1 chassis unit I think...on the Signature line. But yes, it did not draw attention to itself at all which is complementary to itself in that system. Very resolute and coherent, and at the same time musical.

I prefer tubes however, so the over all sound was a bit thin for my taste, which is purely personal.

Henry, what were your thought listening to the ARC gear vs the Dart?

Sun Light Engineering SE 308 Concentric, a concentric is time alined and works wonderful in nearfield.

James,
Just curious - which Metronome model did you hear with the Minis?

As the US Met distributor, I enjoyed reading your comments as my experience indicates the Metronome-Magico combo is quite exceptional. Our SF dealer, Audio Image, now represents Magico in addition to Metronome.

Thanks James. I listened to the Minis a cple of times and really liked them but concerned my Darts will not be enuff for them...and don't want to chg my amps again. A fellow goner did say he has such a set up (Dart-Mini) and said the match was very good, so a bit confused actually. Over here, they don;t allow home auditions so I wld have to drag my amp to the dealership...yuk. The Minis at the dealership were driven by Spectral and Audio Rsch 210s, the latter sounding particularly good w/ the Minis.

The V3 was setup to a pure Zanden system, the 90 watt monoblock push-pull 845 amps, the preamp, and the transport/dac signature combo. I did not check the wires, but I did notice the Nordost speaker wire. They were in a large room about 8 feet up from the back wall. I do not know the room measurements.

Detail was there, bass was there, but I was not able to critically listen because I did not have my own CDs. I was just getting a casual sense for them. But I heard all I needed, they didn't do much for me.

I was disappointed in the Zanden monoblocks. But then again, different system completely and setup in the dealer may have been less than optimal.

I went into a much smaller room (about half the size of the last) where the Minis were playing, driven by Burmester gear with a Metronome CD player. I think the amp was about 280 watts per channel.

Now I can see why these speakers are getting attention, tremendous detail, and coherency that is in a whole other league from the V3.

The Burmester gear I've heard before, good, but not my cup of tea. I would love to hear the Mini on a high power tube amp of some kind. They do require lots of power from what Mr. Wolf replied to me, when I asked about my ML2s. He said they would be fine with the V3, not the Mini.

Frank ....most definitely. I am currently constructing the room to reflect this, real traps, corner taps etc.

Lightminer: yes indeed...i saw similiar comments from reviews...nice to hear a fellow audiogoner to confirm. will check them out!

You really must treat the room, otherwise you will never get the best performance from any speaker that lives in it.
The smaller the room, the more it needs to be treated.
Take some of the money you plan on spending on speakers and buy some bass traps for the corners and RFZ panels for the 1st reflection points. This is money well spent and you will not regret it. Take a look at Real Traps and budget about $4k if you are serious about getting a good sounding room, regardless of speaker choice.

Thx Pubul...Merlin does interest me but not sure if they have distrubutor here in Hong Kong...did try the Parsifals and while the soundstaging...no the location of instruments within the soundstage was incredibly precise, and overall resolution was very impressive I did not find them to be my cup of tea. They lacked that body of tone, tonal color when called for ,..at least to me. Tubes may do the trick and perhaps my Darts which excel at this will help as well, but ceteris paribus I think some others that I have tried so far like the Magico Minis or Kharma Mini-Exquisties are more along my tastes.

James, you are the first one to comment on the V3s i've seen. Can u elaborate a bit more in relation to the Minis?

Check out the Tetra stuff, maybe 506, 406, etc. www.tetraspeakers.com. These are somehow a bit different than most other box speakers... They have a different feel. These are fairly popular with musicians - they cerainly aren't studio monitors, but are sort of the 50/50 blend of 'the high end' with professional recording requirements - which have much better nearfield listening characteristics and overall are more accurate to the recording, sometimes to a slight fault where other epeakers we might be more used to are colored in a way that perhaps improves bad/flawed recordings.

The main thing here is that they certianly hold their own versus similarly prices 'high end' speakers and have really incredible nearfield response (not always a goal for high end speakers), so could be perfect.

i think you have gotten a lot of good suggestions, but will just throw in my 2 cents for the Merlin VSM-MXe. I have an 11x18 room and I don't think for a room this size there is a better speaker, at least not for my taste, which as you know differs from listner to listner. I also think very highly of the Verity line. With your size room probaly the Fidelio would be the right size. While the Parsifals ar better, not for your room.

Henry,

I had a chance to listen to the Magico Mini and the V3 today in completely different systems. The Mini is a tremendous speaker, you definitely have the power, and should go hear these asap. :) Very nice 2 way indeed. The V3 will give you lower response, but it's a step down in refinement.

How goes the search?

Hearing them makes me want to look at a solid state amp now...:) But, alas, my room is only so big, I cannot have a 'collection' of audio gear laying around as I have no intention of letting my Lamms go anytime soon.

best,
James

Proac 1sc, Totem Mani2, Dynaudio C1
I suppose it depends on whether your looking for sheer accuracy or say a slightly warmer sound.
A smaller speaker will certainly give you the illusion of no speakers at all especially in a smaller room, but if your mostly a lights off kind of listener it wont matter as much.

thanks James. I do find them very interesting as I do the whole efficient speaker, lower power SET thing...but I do think bass reflex, rear ported designs may not be optimal for my room...would love to try them out but I aint a reviewer so in home demo over a cple of days ain't gonna happen. sigh.

I have them setup in a 12' x 12' listening area in a room that is 12' x 24' and they sound great. My setup has them wider than expected considering how close I sit.

Trade-offs, that's what speakers are all about right?

Here is how I would describe the pros and cons of the OBX:

* Dynamic range is very good. These speakers have bite if called upon.

* Refined sound from top to bottom in terms of frequency spread - smooth sounding w/o any horrible gaps or bumps.

* Fast and well controlled. The mid bass, I've had others over to hear them and some very respected ears have commented on how much mid bass texture is revealed. But keep in mind, this is a bass reflex ported box, I'm sure you will get a cleaner low end with a sealed box. But the low end is always problematic.

* Good detail across the frequency spread with the exception in the mids, I suspect the cross over from the 2 mid bass drivers to the tweeter. You really have to listen to pick up on this, it is not obvious.

The OBX is a very well balanced speaker from what I've heard. You always want more after time, but when I go to listen to other speakers, I seem to come back satisfied with what I have. But I have to disclose that I am budget minded and I try to look at value. So my comments may not apply to this thread.

You are on the cutting edge of this hobby by looking at your system. I look forward to reading about your journey with your next speakers! Please keep us informed as to the direction you go.

Thanks James...I hear great things about the OBX2...but they need space don't they?

Good point, tubes or solid state would be a personal preference.

I was told (but I cannot confirm) that you couldn't do better with a large coax driver in a large box for a small room. I have personally never heard such a speaker, but I was curious if anyone in this thread could contribute to this idea of the Iconic Stonehenge Model V.

I have not heard the speaker, but am considering a trip to the factory to audition.

I too am in the same boat. But it is very difficult to replace the Living Voice speakers I currently own. I can say good things about the OBX2 however. They are very nice.

not sure why tubes vs solid state enters as a facto re room size?

Hey guys, these speakers are getting very expensive very quickly? What about looking into some older approaches to spakers such as the Stonehenge series from Iconic Speakers? I was thinking of trying to hear a pair of these:

http://www.iconicspkrs.com/stonehenge.html

What are your thoughts? Once again, small room tube amps?

I can't say I can as I have only heard them at dealerships...and not been able to AB or anything...commenting from memory between the two would be quite misleading in my case

This is exciting since I am waiting to upgrade mine. I live in the US and have not heard the Mini 2 yet. I know that you have heard the first version as well. Can you tell the differences?

Larryi, very good pt on auditioning.

Roypan, yes several times. The Magico minis so are the front runners on wish list so far. I love the way they resolve yet retain warmth and beauty of tone like my Kharmas yet also sound more alive and dynamic.

Henryhk, did you hear the Mini 2? I heard that HK have them.