Correcting drifting with Sutherland Timeline
I use the Timeline, too. A very useful product, you can "see" the difference between Belts, new ones, older ones and what I like most, the correct speed when the needle is running in the groove. That is a difference compared to other alignment systems who show the speed when the needle is outside. And what the results are when current is not stable :-) |
Could you make out the difference in pitch or tonality after the adjustments with the timeline. Mine was 100% perfect, so all I got was confirmation that nothing needed adjustment. Ken Fritz here at Audiogon borrowed my Timeline and found his Denon 308 was off quite a bit. Over several days he tweaked the pots on the (internal) control board resulting in a substantial upgrade. Ken's System As for 33.34 versus 33.33 and no variation I don't know how audible that would be. It would be slightly off pitch but most people are not pitch perfect. |
Thanks Albert for all the great answers. It did place a smile on my face when I realised that it could join the stylus force gauge, protractor and other knick-knacks in the tt accesory drawer. One final query, especially since you have a great TT/Analog rig (SP-10Mk3). Could you make out the difference in pitch or tonality after the adjustments with the timeline. In short if my tt ran at 33.34 constant - no variation or deviation-totally spot on all the time at such a speed, then would this make a tonal/pitch/music flow and all the lovely things that analog does on playback. Just a yes or no reply, would also be appreciated as I have really tried to convince myself that the timeline is must have accesory. |
So does this mean the speed should 'not' vary on the turntable once you have removed the Timeline. I would have thought that given the weight of the Timeline, having it on or off the TT, would cause a deviation in speed. The Timeline is maybe 8 ounces, little more than an audiophile LP, I don't think that's a factor. Or am I completely off the track here in understanding, where stylus drag could cause speed deviations but having the Timeline on or off the tt wouldn't? A small weight above spindle is not the same as variable drag (friction). My preferred clamps are several pounds AND lock. My turntable is powerful enough that weight is not a factor, so I get all benefit with no downside. With Timeline and my mat the LP slips. No way to "push down" and lock to simulate more weight. However, making Timeline a locking device would drastically change the price and benefit few. (This is my opinion, no input from Ron Sutherland). The reason why I ask is that once the speed is set with the aid of the Timeline, does the unit then just sit on a shelf. For me, yes. Same as my stylus force gauge, Mint tractor, Wally Tractor and other tools. If the Timeline works on your turntable as a weight, you got a bonus. I think it's worth the price as a speed check alone. Would you check speed weekly/monthly..... I must have my own tools, things always happen at the wrong time, hard enough to keep everything 100% even with everything handy. |
Thanks for the insights Albert. So does this mean the speed should 'not' vary on the turntable once you have removed the timeline. I would have thought that given the weight of the timeline, having it on or off the TT, would cause a deviation in speed. Or am I completely off the track here in understanding, where stylus drag could cause speed deviations but having the timeline on or off the tt wouldn't? The reason why I ask is that once the speed is set with the aid of the timeline, does the unit then just sit on a shelf. Would you check speed weekly/monthly..... As this would then makes it easier then for a few of us audiophiles to purchase one unit and use it between us when required. (As I don't see them for sale on Agon as yet) Look forward to your thoughts and thanks for your replies. |
The Timeline is a test tool, it's most important function is checking speed. If it works with your turntable as a hold down, you got a bonus The Timeline does not hold the record tight enough in my system, the LP actually slips on start and stop and maybe even during play. A different platter mat could change this result, mine is particularly "slippery" as mats go. |
To all Timeline owners- I take it that you have to use the Timeline unit (laser switched off)continuously to maintain speed accuracy once set. What if you have a different clamp or puck for a vacuum system over the spindle to enforce a seal, then I take it that the Timeline cannot be used. Or is there a way to get around this? Thanks for your thoughts and replies. |
My Clearaudio strobe is not functioning properly. Of course this only happened once I moved my turntable to a new spot and friends coming over for a listen the next night. Cds it was for the night, but vinyl is what we wanted to listen to. Purchased the Sutherland Timeline which I will receive on Monday. Should be interesting, accurate I hope........ Will comment once I have had a chance to use it on my table. Till then, |
So far I've found that it takes about 5-8 revolutions of the HRX platter to recognise a .05 Hz frequency change that I make on the SDS, and stabilse. I don't have perfect pitch but this helps me get closer to perfection than I've ever managed with a strobe disc, with the big advantage that you adjust while the lp is playing live. IMO: Worth having if you have a t/t in which you can finely adjust motor control. |
Sounds like a great tool. However, I can tell you as a musician and someone with absolute pitch that almost 100% of LPs are not in tune. Somewhere along the recording chain, a slight pitch error occurs. Some are really bad. Like the original Miles Davis Kind of Blue. So setting a turntable to perfect 33.33 will never make music pitch correct. You need to have ears and adjust for EVERY lp. |
First I've seen of this cool device, great concept. Every high end TT manufacturer should use one during product development and QC testing - if they dare. All Teres belt drive tables self-compensate for drift by monitoring a built-in platter strobe and tweaking motor voltage as necessary. This system should maintain overall speed accuracy to well beneath the resolution of the Timeline, since the platter strobe read by the motor controller has more marks per revolution. However, only a few tables have that ability to directly monitor PLATTER speed and self correct (direct drives presumably, but not many others). With regard to different LP's, I suspect stylus drag due to differing dynamics affects speed more than the mere inertial difference between 120g and 200g records. Once the platter's at speed a heavier LP would help slightly, but 80g more weight is pretty tiny compared to the weight of most platters, especially the 30-80 lb. monsters some of us use. A ring clamp provides much more inertial benefit than a heavier LP: it weighs alot more and that weight is all out at the periphery. No surprise yours made a visible/audible improvement. Of course a once-per-revolution strobe cannot measure short duration speed changes that occur and correct in less than a revolution. Short transient rise times occur in far less time than this. Still, steady-state speed at the right speed is certainly laudable - and audible to many if it's off or (especially) changing. Good report, sounds like it could help many of us make audible improvements ... or change TT's! |
If this device is as accurate as we are being told, I suspect that in many cases we are going to discover that our motor controllers (even the signature and reference versions that we paid a lot of money for!) are simply not up to the task of setting and holding a fully accurate speed of rotation, even with records of the same weight. So my question is: on the basis of your experience so far do you have any reason for thinking that the Timeline is simply too accurate for the job? Best wishes |
Not done any tests with various weight LP's yet. Planning on cutting an 'O' ring to fit in the top groove of the TimeLine so that I can sit my VPI HRX weight securely on top of the TimeLine, for 2 reasons; The TimeLine is not a much of a weight compared to VPI's, and to see if I can get a reading so that I can calculate the speed change & remove the TimeLine and just have the VPI weight. Also, was hoping to have my Ref 2 Phono back from GNS for the week-end but FEDEX seem to have problems making delivery.............dooohhh! |
