Mapman, good question, why must be USB ? When I tested the DAC2 with its digital input I tested with the Sony Player digital output. I am not sure if every PC/MAC comes with a TosLink or SPDI/F digital output or how it will sound compared to the digital output from the CD player. But every PC or MAC comes with abundance of USB ports and even it comes with USB3 faster data rate. That's why I was more inclined towards the USB ports. After testing with USB and not liking it, I almost gave up and did not think of using digital port from PC. Now that you have raised this question, I need to test it with the TOSLINK port from a PC. Unfortunately, I have already sold the DAC2 as it was not getting used. The main purpose of buying an expensive gear like DAC2 was to use it with a computer to get some decent result. I can buy the DAC again for the experiment and even perhaps something better than the DAC2 available today. |
Top,
Why must it be USB? WHy not just use non USB digital input which you indicated sounds good? I can vouch that it generally does in my case as well using various combos in recent years.
Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure USB even done well will necessarily sound better at present. It may be wiser to hold off on USB for now. IT will either get better, more reliable, and less expensive over time or else something else new will come along. I think USB will be around for quite sometime, but in that it is a general purpose technology and not designed specifically for audio, it may always be more hit or miss unless one rally knows what one is doing in choosing. |
Steve. N., Thanks for the suggestion. I believe the 5th generation USB converter you meant the OffRamp 5 USB converter ? I will have to try this one. Can you also mention some other high quality USB converter ? What is the best quality power supply to go with it ?
A USB converter and then the DAC ? This will add one more stage in the signal path and one more pair of ICs, and one more power supply, etc, etc, etc. This is getting too messy !!! Four to five extra components for just replacing a simple CD player !!! That is why I like a good DAC unit with USB input which has been implemented correctly to minimize number of components as well as expensive ICs.
Also a DAC with high quality USB input and a high quality volume control will be my preference !!! Is there any such thing in the market which will outperform my Sony SCD XA-5400 ES player ? |
AE,
I'm sure that there are lots of bad sounding older Toslink and SPDIF implementations out there. Some cheap less capable newer ones as well. I have only tried SPDIF and TOSLINK in recent years and from companies that have some focus on good sounding audio products. Not the best or most expensive, nor the cheapest mass market stuff. I have been pleasantly surprised with the results that I have heard can be achieved. Definitely better and more affordable as a whole than was typically the case years ago with many analog sources of the day. So there has been progress in my eyes. Of course, there is always a way to do things better. USB use for hifi digital (USB is a general purpose technology being used now for hifi audio its not designed specifically for that) is newer and not as mature, and hence probably more problematic I would think still. The question is always how much does it matter and for how much. I suspect USB will become more mature over time and add more value in future scenarios where higher resolution audio streams specifically are involved. But currently, in applications where TOSLink or SPDIF suffice, I suspect it is still more hit or miss. That will change over time though as things progress though I would bet. |
Topmost wrote: "I have no knowledge of how the USB is implemented. This is exactly the point. The technology has not been matured enough."
You listen to one interface from one company and you come to this conclusion?
You should audition more USB interfaces, and particularly USB converters. There is a LOT better to be had.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Mapman wrote: "it seems USB connections seem to be much more hit or miss for really good sound than older more established and standardized interfaces designed specifically for computer audio, like TOSLINK and SPDIF. I have yet to get any clearly bad results with either of those."
Well I have. I used to mod both transports and DACs from other companies and I found lots of crappy designs. Much of the time I observed that one company would design a S/PDIF interface and the other would all copy it, even though it was a poor design. I don't believe I EVER measured one S/PDIF output circuit that was actually 75 ohms output impedance.
As for Toslink, the earlier transmitters where inherently bad, but the later 3.3V versions got better. They all add jitter. Its easy to screw these up too, like forget to put the decoupling cap close to the driver etc..
I've seen it all. None of these designers are crack digital designers with a lot of experience IMO.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Don_c55, I don't have any SACD media. I am sure SACD will sound better than the Redbook CDs, but I have no plan in investing on SACD. Thanks for the suggestion. |
Most manufacturers are adding USB interfaces to their DACs now without much experience with these. As a result, most of these DACs sound better driven from S/PDIF input rather than USB input.
The other thing to realize is that even the very best USB interface when install in a DAC will likely share some part of the power system, ultimately compromising it.
The best course is to buy the very best outboard USB converter and then power it from the very best power supply. This will definitely beat even the best transports on the market. There are some companies that are shipping 5th generation of these interfaces.
The other thing to realize is that the player software and computer hardware is critical. I recommend Amarra on a 2009 Mac Mini powered by a Hynes power supply playing .wav files. Nothing touches this IME.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
There is no rational set of arguments, facts or opinions that will convince you. |
Spectron & Mapman, yes you are right that the mediocre circuits in a general purpose computer and the noise inside it are the big issues. If that is the case then we can not use a general purpose PC/MAC at all for this purpose. The computer must be designed by an audiophile company carefully removing non-audio parts and selecting exotic audio-parts which will cost $30,000 and up like some of the exotic CDP or DAC ? It may or may not run my 3D graphic software at its full speed. I will not call this specially designed audiophile grade computer a computer at all. It will be an alternate transport which happen to use some processor and useless outside audio application. |
In general, it seems USB connections seem to be much more hit or miss for really good sound than older more established and standardized interfaces designed specifically for computer audio, like TOSLINK and SPDIF. I have yet to get any clearly bad results with either o those. Have shied away from USB so far as a result and have not tried it to compare, though my mhdt Constantine DAC does has a USB input. |
Dtc,
Thanks for asking this question. yes I have tried the Digital input of the EMM DAC2 and the sound was fantastic. DAC2 is a great DA converter by itself when non-USB port is used. I have no knowledge of how the USB is implemented. This is exactly the point. The technology has not been matured enough. Everybody is trying something in all directions to find the right approach which has not been achieved satisfactorily. I am not blaming the DAC2 entirely for the failure. The computer is also involved in the whole picture. |
Someone above mentioned the noise aspect of most general purpose computers. That is a fact and must be addressed. Physical and electronic isolation between computer and hifi gear is important. Close proximity of computer to stereo can be like Superman and Kryptonite. Longer wires may help to keep some physical isolation. I like to use Wifi connections as well to eliminate a physical wire connection completely. Achieve both together and results should be pretty good. ALso all DACs sound different. A DAC can be very good but not to everyones taste in any particular setup, much like a phono cart. |
Buying a really good DAC and connecting it via USB to most general purpose computers could be a very hit or miss proposition. Don't give up. Once optimized end to end, results should be top notch. |
I don't know
I think you need to give it more than 4 minutes.
I ventured into pc based transport on Friday night as a major skeptic, and by Sunday night, I am convinced and no turning back.
I had your initial thoughts too during my first playback of a ripped CD but I gave it more time and what sealed it for me was some comments from my wife.
It sounds like you have a really nice setup, much nicer than mine so you should be able to reep major benefits with some time and effort.
go for it!
Blaine |
I am no expert on the DAC2, butit looks like the USB on the DAC only does 44.1KB and 48KB and I am not sure it has a separate driver. That makes me wonder about the async USB implementation. It came out just as true async USB was being implemented. It would be nice to know more about the USB implementation or maybe try a newer USB interface that will go to at least 96 KHz, if you can. |
Just like with CD players, you have to be sure the components work together and give you the sound you like. Some things to try.
Have you tried the Digital input from the Sony to the EMM? That would tell you how you like the EMM DAC.
Try J River Music or foobar Windows players, using WASABI Event Style (async) or ASIO. Audcity is usually used for editing rather than playback. Do you know what playback mode Audacity used? If it went through the Windows audio stack using dirct audio that might be the problem.
Try a different USB to COAX adapter.
I replaced my Classe CDP-10 with a PC system when it sounded at least as good as the Classe. It took while to get the right competition, but it now sends better than the Classe and I would not go back.
I would not jump to a quick decision. Unfortunately, PC audio does take some tweeking, just like non PC audio. |
There is common misperception that if a DAC has jitter rejection circuitry and stand-alone clocks then its immune from the imperfections of the incoming digital signal. Its not correct, the principle garbage in garbage out is applied to this situation equally well (or equally bad),
Regular computer parts create a soup of electro-magnetic and radio frequency interference. They contain a plethora of clocks and other ultra sensitive components that must operate in that soup. This environment, along with the quality stability and level of noise of the underlying power source, impacts the accuracy of each of those components. Audio playback happens via real-time communication between the server and the DAC. Unlike the data operations we use our computers for every day (downloading files, saving document and editing photos) audio playback has no error-correction built into the protocol. Consequently, most of the noise and all jitter created by the regular computer is passed along to your DAC where it may or may not be slightly attenuated by DAC circuitry.
Carefully select your music server (there are many choices today) and you will be surpised how mmuch better sound is when its played as a digital file from the quality server (file is copied or ripped from CD) as compared to exactly the same CD played using optical CD Transports.
Until you HEAR it - all words are useless, IMO
Don cc55: I bet you never ever ever ever ever compared dsd files played from quality music server versus the same music played from SACD read by optical SACD Transport.
For illustration purposes I have APL HiFi NWO-MasterJ - one of the best CD/SACD Player&DAC in the world (at least extremely expensive) and I demoe it to a number of my friends and visitors and enjoy the moment then their jaw meets the floor..:--)
All The Best In Your Search!
Simon Thacher
Musica Pristina |
Try SACD on your Sony 5400 if you want HIgh Res audio.
The 5400 is up to date CD/SACD playback, and IMO beats every digital file (computer based) playback with 24/96K or higher files that I have listened to.
The USB port technology is the problem IMO. Pro digital High Res audio processing for the film industry does not use USB. |
