Again, this is a very record-by-record thing. I'd avoid sweeping generalizations and research opinions on the specific LP you are interested in.
Some early pressings surpass audiophile reissues, some don't some Classic pressings sound better than AP at QRP, some don't. Sometimes the best pressing is European (Pallas is an excellent European plant), sometimes the best pressing is a US one. |
Hey, Myles- agreed that for alot of the records that are reissued as
premium audiophile, finding an original isn't just pricey but very difficult if
you want a clean, quiet, unmolested player. (I've been on a Vertigo Swirl
binge for the last 2 years, and the price of the originals- pretty much all that
is available b/c the reissues aren't of great quality- is vertigo-inducing!) But,
hasn't the classical album market dipped in value? I remember how
expensive some of the doggies and living presence were back in the late
80's- when Sid Marks was writing them up for TAS (unfortunately when I
bought many of the ones I have), but I thought that market nose-dived at
some point.
By contrast, I have long enjoyed Chad's Hoodoo Man Blues recut at $50
bucks new. I only recently got to hear a true first press in absolutely mint
condition- something i rarely see and hear. I didn't get to directly compare it
with the recut, but at over $400, it is the kind of record most people would
be happy to buy as a remaster, rather than chasing the original. |
Playpen, I'm sorry to hear of your experience with the 45 rpm reissue of the Saint Saens organ concerto as compared to you RCA 2S. To my ears, the 45 rpm reissue is a joy. I, too, have an original Shaded Dog with which to compare, and to my ears the original sounds sweet, compressed and lacking in resolution. But, differences in our systems and our listening priorities may well cause each of us to prefer one versus the other. |
I hate to say it but the debate is moot. Whatever your
opinion, and I too have all the originals, there wouldn't
be all the turntables there are today without the efforts
of Hobson, Chad, Joe and Ron and a few others. They kept
analog alive. BTW, good luck trying to buy an original
Bluenote in any semblance of good shape for less than
several hundred dollars or more! |
I have the 45 rpm classic of Saint Seans organ and the original RCA 2s pressing,the original much better.I bought Zappa's Hot Rats classic 33,forget it,a total waste of money compared to original.I'm done with reissued vinyl,just about all of it a disappointing experience for me.If I can't hear it first and demo it on my system I won't buy it.Been stung too many times.I listened to the glowing reviews too many times and suckered into but yet another waste of money. |
Rushton: thanks.
Fjn/Don: Don't mean to derail this thread for Zep stuff, but I bought a couple
of the Zep albums as Classic 45's individually, not p/o the
"roadcase." (I also have Zep 1 and III as Classic 33's). As I
have posted on other threads here, for the first album I find the Piros 'CC'
Monarch the most convincing, overall, and think it sounds better than the
Classic 45, Monarch first press, the UK plum and the east coast (US) first
press. The Classic 45 has more detail, more 'air' in the middle, but doesn't
have the drive or the overall cohesiveness of the Piros/Monarch, which just
sounds more balanced and, for lack of a better word- less 'tweaked.'
On IV, I alternate between a UK plum, a US Porky/Pecko Monarch and the
Classic 45. Agree, the newest reissues sound pretty flat and lifeless,
though they are quiet, have pretty good bass and are inexpensive. |
Whart- So you have the ZEP 45 box set, or 180gr 33rpm's? If you don't mind my asking, are you comparing to early presses of Zep 1 and Zoso? I have a first US press Zoso, I will have to compare it to my Classic. I never found the Classics bright, no more than what these recordings are in the first place. I have the brand new remaster of Zep 1 from digital files, and I must say, that sounds futzed with. Cheers -Don |
Whart, Bernie Grundman's mastering style has always been to have a bit of a sharp zingy top. He's known for it. His sound really shifted because of the Mercury project, but the leaning is for crisper and a bit brighter sound. I can't really compare the popular music you reference because I just have the originals and don't invest in buying the reissues of popular music for the most part. I certainly admire the work of Lee Hulko - hard to imagine bettering his work. |
Classsic Records were a big ripoff none sound as good as the originals.How many times can you reissue the same records i have most originals i still like them the best. |
Rushton: thanks for responding- I wasn't limiting myself to the RCAs, in
fact, I don't know that I have originals and Classics of the same record- I
have the Royal Ballet 45 set on Classic, but don't have the original to
compare against. In other cases, I have the old shaded or white dog, but
not the Classic. My comment may be limited to the pop releases that were
done on Classic. For example, Neil Young- Greatest Hits- was done by
Chris Bellman at BG and has some cuts from Harvest, among others. If you
compare it to the old Lee Hulko mastered version, it sounds bright, almost
strident by comparison. Interestingly, the Bellman re-master of Harvest from
a few years ago is closer to the original, just a tad 'clearer,' a little less
organic.
Other records where the Classic is very bright sounding, to my ears,
compared to better original cuts: Aqualung, an admittedly horrible sounding
recording; the Classic 45 on Clarity, one sided is good, until you compare it
to an old WLP. Same on the Zep Classic 45s I have, of I and IV. Brighter,
more detail, but not as balanced sounding. I know all of these are not
'audiophile' records to begin with. But, at least in the case of pop/rock that I
have on Classic, including Classic 45, they sound a little fiddled with. As I
said, I'm not dissing BG, or the re-do labels, but wonder if it is an artifact of
mastering on more modern equipment, or simply a sonic choice by the
mastering engineer. |
Whart, if you're referring to RCA Shaded Dog originals versus the 45rpm reissues from Classic Records and Analogue Production, my experience is that there is no comparison - the 45rpm reissues are just so much better.
I've listened to a few of the newly released 33rpm reissues from Analogue Productions, and they are also significantly better than the originals and more comparable to the 45s.
When I think of what the master tape must sound like, I think I'm getting much closer to that sound with these than with any of the originals Shaded Dogs.
If you're comparing to the Classic Records 33rpm reissues from a decade ago, then it's very much a mixed bag.
. |
Not to diss BG, Hobson, or Chad, but I have found that in virtually every
case where I have an original early pressing and the Classic, the Classic
remasters sound brighter. More 'detail,' and more 'audiophile' but less of a
piece. I appreciate that the OP doesn't want to search out or pay the tariff
for the originals, but if we are talking 'definitive' versions, I wonder what
others' experience is? |
Without looking at samples of each, it's not possible to say for sure. But there is no reason they'd need to be different. My guess is that they are the same. Analogue Productions bought all of the assets of Classic Records and so has the stampers and other metal work. They can certainly make new stampers from the mothers, but each iteration entails a slightly less fresh mold from which the stampers are made. |
Does the stampers for the same title one single sided 4x45 RPM and other double sided 2x45RPM are the same?
I thought that CR and AP may use the same master source byt the stampers are new one for each pressing... |
I am curious if it is worth to get 2x 45 AP when I have 4x 45 180g from Classic. All I can offer to this is that I am not replacing any of my 4-sided RTI pressing for the new QRP 2-sided pressings. Two reasons: 1) too much other really good music that I want to add (e.g., the Yarlung vinyl issues) and 2) the WRP pressings must be from later generation stampers so we're getting further and further away from the cleanest stampers possible off of this metal work. . |
Those QRP pressings are great in my experience. And in such cases this will likely be a pressing by pressing matter. Steve Hoffman Forums is a great place to get opinions on different pressings.
I have heard that Classic pressings could be inconsistent (even 45 RPM) and you wouldn't have the option of exchanging a poor pressing for a better one since they are out of business. QRP may end up being a safer bet in that way... |
The best sounding ones are the first CR 180gr pressings from the mid 90's in 33.3 rpm and from those the 45 rpms.
The Master Tape can't be improved, the detoriation is fact. Mixing here and there and shifting frequency areas later is a separate story. |
Thank you for your opinion.
I am aware about superiority of Classic Records 45 RPM compared to 33 ones.
For example:
My 4x 45 RPM single side 180 g Time out is WAY better than Classic 200 g 33 RPM. In my opinion this 45 RPM 180 g is more neutral and pleasant sounding than later 4 x 45 RPM 200 g on black vinyl.
I did not heard Classic 4 x 45 RPM on 200 g Clarity Vinyl, nor AP 2 x 45 RPM.
I am curious if it is worth to get 2x 45 AP when I have 4x 45 180g from Classic.
Another example. 12" single 45 rpm on Classic clarity vinyl Satchmo plays Oliver sounds better than their 180 g release on black vinyl.
However when compared Classic 180g with 200g 33 RPM on black vinyl the later one sounded fuller and boldier, when the first one was more similar to original release.
Also 8x45 RPM single side Classic Buena Vista Social Club souned better than their 33 RPM 200g edition.
So for me there is no doubt that Classic 45 is better than 33. However 8 LPs instead one is a bit Problematic to listen.
The question is if never AP 45 RPM releases can be even better than Classic 45 single sides on black or clarity vinyl.
The question is which one edition is ultimate edition. |
Milimetr, just a few thoughts about which you may already be aware:
The Classic Records 45rpm classical music releases are significantly better sounding than the earlier 33s were. This is largely due to changes in Bernie Grundman's mastering chain that he was forced by Wilma Cozart Fine to make at the time he undertook mastering the Mercury reissues. This is not just the difference in the 45rpm cutting speed, it comes from moving to tube cutting amps and a much improved signal chain.
The 45rpm RCA titles coming from AP are not new masterings (to the best of my knowledge). They are new pressing runs from the same metal work but now being pressed at QRP rather than RTI. The QRP pressings I have (none of the ones you've asked about) are very good. But so are the RCA 45rpm pressings that I have that were pressed at RTI.
I have not been able to tell any difference in the single-sided pressings from double sided-pressings. There may be a difference, but I've not compared the same LP pressed both ways. Reports from a meeting at the LA Audio Society when Hobson demo'd this were that the single-sided copies did sound better. But, again, I've not heard it and the double-sided copies I have from AP and MM sound simply amazing.
. |
