class d

Thanks g. I looked at the threads.seems like there are some real fans out there. Also looks like the capri new is only priced a bit above the used ones on this site. Might just try and find a dealer to demo and buy new.
Thanks again for your input!

Hi Jimmy3993, yes I am running a Capri in my system consisting of TEAC X-01 Limited, JRDG 312, Vienna Mahler speakers. I prefer it over my ARC Ref 3. I have also run the Capri with NuForce Ref 9 SE and it worked perfectly. I could wax poetic about Capri, which is currently my preferred pre of record. . . but there are some threads where I have already commented abundantly on it. Just search for Capri in the discussion threads. . . here are some of the threads in questions:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1169433708&openfrom&19&4#19
and:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1200110667&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona

If you buy a Capri, let it play music for 1000 hours or so, then decide if you like it. G.

You are so right the Ref 8 series slipped my mind. I got my first hole in one today after 28 years of playing golf. I had a few of my favorite beverage.

For me Nuforce and AH are one very good match. And Joseph has superior customer service as well. Should not be a problem getting your request built.

G -
Yea - that might be it. Do you have any personal experience with jrdg pre's?

There have been two upgrades to Nuforce Ref series amps. The first was from Ref 9 to SE that was a little more than one year after the original came out to unrepresented praise. A little more than a year later V2 technology which has a US patent was introduced. The SE upgrade was more expensive than V2. But for much less than half of the cost you have a amp thats up to date with current offerings. I know because i did the upgrade thing and glad it did.
I cant see how you can have a problem with that kind of customer support.

As far as P-9 goes i had one and it did not produce the sound i was looking for. I went the tubed route with absolutely no problems with any issues mentioned in this thread.

I am one of many who really appreciate a company that keeps there customers in mind with upgrades instead of just leaving those customers high and dry with out dated gear that goes for way less than what it cost new on the resale market.

Another thing you can count on with Nuforce is there first class and speedy way of dealing with any problems you may have with there gear.
I say many thanks Nuforce for your super equipment and service.

I dont have any money interest or friends that are connected with Nuforce in any way. I'm just one very happy user of one of the finest amps available.

If any of you out there are ever in New Orleans get in touch and you can hear the superior sound that Nuforce amps give my system.

Jimmy, look at the current ad for a JRDG Capri for approx 2.2K. Capri is balanced, has remote, HT bypass, has 0.5dB volume increments. G.
See:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1223931452

G -
That looks really nice.
Can I have $2000?

A little out of my range for now. I sold by integrated for 3300 and planned on spending 4500 on a pre/power for now. I found a pair of V2se's for 2600 so I have 2kish for a pre.
So there is the nuforce below that price and older conrad johnson and pass labs at that price and a calypso $1k over budget.
I want an ht pass and would prefer balanced. Thanks for your help. I know that I have gotten away from the original post.

Hi Jimmy3993, here is a slightly different path. . . I have just spotted an Agon ad for a brand new JRDG Continuum 500 for under $7K. This is an integrated roughly equivalent to a pair of 501 monos + 1500W PFC circuit (twice the capacity of the PC1 + a Capri pre board + a block of additional bulk output capacitors not available on the individual components. This is the same model of Continuum that DCSTEP has been raving about for the last several months. This is the first time I spot a Continuum 500 on Agon for sale. Some specs at:
http://jeffrowland.com/Continuum.htm

T
Sounds like this isn't the first problem you have heard about. Have there been others?

I had not looked at it from that angle, but can't really argue with you either. The p9 demo was not part of their usuall demo process though.
On their web site, they offer auditions for the monos. So I called the to arrange a demo. While on the phone, I asked about the p9. The guy said that they didn't have a demo program for it, but that he had one handy and wouldn't mind sending it along.
So I can give them a "pass" on not knowing that the pre wasn't current because they weren't planning on sending it out.
That says nothing about the rapid rate that they upgrade the amps.
I am really fond of the solidity of the imaging that I get from the pre/mono combo. Plus the pre suits my quirky functionality needs (ht bypass, balanced input and output) and they are cheap.
If anyone has an alternate to consider, let me know!

No guarantees, but the Rowland chassis is designed with containing RFI in mind. Some of the worst of Class D or ICEPower impressions comes from these kind of issues. It cannot be ignored. Besides interacting with pre-amps, setting your CDP and ICEPower amp side by side can be disappointing. With my Rowland Continuum 500 and Playback Designs MPS-5 it's not an issue at all, either in unbalanced or balanced mode.

Dave

I actually had a different issue with the NuForce V2 SE and my Supratek Chenin tube preamp. The RF emitted by the Nuforce fed back through the tubes in my pre, producing a contant buzz/hum through the speakers, and a very glaring type of sound - rather unpleasant. Be careful matching the NuForce with tube preamps, especially Suprateks. The Supras are very sensitive to RF - I can't have a cell phone in the same room with them, or I hear every ping of the cell tower loud and clear. No such problem with the Gilmores, however.

More conversation with nuforce. They gave me directions to open the pre and move a jumper to cut the gain by 1/2. So I gave it a shot but when I opened it up it didnt really look like he picture. Turns out that the demo version i was sent has an old board without the jumper. But they offered to switch it out and if thatw as not enough of a reduction, the offered to add resistance if I wanted. Not bad from a service standpoint.

Thanks again. I talked to nuforce. Part of the issue is fixable, part is intentional. There is a jumper that I can close to cut the gain in half. But in their literature they talk about the gain being linear as opposed to other pre designs where the volume is more gradual. For me it comes down to a question of usability. I really like the ht pass, the extra pre out for my sub and the "cleanness" of the sound but I need more volume flexibility.

Jimmy3993, yes the amp will contribute to staging, like every other component. . . you'll see in a couple of weeks. I suggest you call Nuforce about the problem you are experiencing with the P9. I have tried 2 different pres with the NuForce Ref 9 SE: ARC Ref 3 and JRDG Capri. They both have no impedance nor gain matching problems with the NuForce. I personally prefer the Capri because of its frequency extension and linearity, but many will prefer the Ref 3 for its slightly greater warmth.

Tvad -
Thanks! New to all of this...
Is there somewhere I can go to reaserch the gain of different pre amps?

Guidocorona -
I let everything settle for a few days and the nuforce set up sounds much better. Is it possible for an amplifier to contribute to imaging? Becase that is the change that is most obvious as I moved over to the p9/SE combo away from my mcintosh. The image is so much more sharply defined.
I will be selling my integrated and picking up 2 (ideally 3)of the amps. Not sure about the pre though. Dont like all the popping and the volume control gets way too loud way too fast.
I think that you had writtne something somewhere about matching the impedance of the pre to the power amp. Can you explain that again so that I know what to look for in a pre to go with the nuforce's?
thx!

I own PSAudio GCC250 and Maggies. Very good match.

I work for a company (to remain nameless) which is just entering the Class 'd' market and am trying to pry one of the demo units out of the engineers hands. I'm not TOO optimistic, however, since I saw the list of equipment used to 'voice' the amp and how certain component choices were made.

If I EVER get my hands on it, I'll publish here first:

While I agree that the SE MKII is superior the standard Musician III is still a very fine amplifier, I have had both, and in most cases it is all that one needs for listening to exceptional audio. The MKII is also more expensive (and by FAR!!!).

Hello Outlier,

Standard Musician III is not as refined as SE Mk2 (and by FAR!!!!) and you will be much better off if you will call Simon at Spectron and ask how to optimize your amplifier - he will give you a few advises for very inexpensive tweaks - which will work!

All The Best
Rafael

Hi Jimmy3993, I can only think that someone tweaked gain on either pre or amps. . . this needs a call to Nuforce tech support. Guido

guidocorona -
sounds more reasonable than anything i can come up with.
another question for you - I am using the p9 pre from nuforce with the amps right now and the usable volume range seems to be from "0" to "4" out of 70 or so steps. So there is very little usable volume control for me. Have I done something wrong? Is it a pre amp issue? My "reference" is a mac integrated and while I never get past 40% of the volume wheel, there is much more usable room to fine tune volume.
Thanks for all the help!

Jimmy3993, I can only guess that mechanical vibrations, temperature excursions, and who knows what else may have a detrimental effect. . . besides you have no idea about their past history. . . so, assume the devices are almost new and start break in from the ground up.

Outlier, I will really be looking forward to hearing how the Spectron matches up with the MBL's.

Is the Spectron brand new? If so, I can tell you from personal experience that the first 100-150 hundred hours of a new Spectron can be cruel to your ears. Do not play too loud or you will really strain your ears. After 100-150 hours the sound starts to smooth out with continuing and notable improvement as you pass each 100 hour mark with close to full break-in at about 1000 hours. To expedite break-in try keeping a source continually playing through the speakers 24/7 even at low volumes. Good luck and have fun.

Guidocorona
any idea why they need to run for a while after travel? Not that I doubt it, just that I dont understand it. And you would think that the rep who sent them to me would want to show them in the best light and tell me to wait a week. But that wouldnt be the first time that a vendor said a component would sound optimal right out of the box either...
strange hobby.

I have the PS Audio GCC250 driving Magnepan 1.6s.
They play well together and have stunning dynamics.
Ruthless exposure of mediocre source means I ended up having to do a pretty substantial upgrade there, as well.
Now that's over, I wouldn't change a thing.

i sent the raptors back. i listened to a recording of the tchaikovsky violin concerto on the chesky label. i compared the raptors to my vtl deluxe 120 in triode mode.

using the vtl the violin was more full bodied. i heard the strings and the wood body. wit the raptors, the balance favored the strings and the sound of the wood, was barely evident.

Jimmy -

If you have access to a tubed pre give it a listen with the V2SE's. I've heard that the P-9 with the V2's can be too much of a good thing. IMO switching amps really need to be paired with a good tubed pre.

I have posted a review of the Gilmore Raven, the stereo version of the Raptor, in comparison to the Nuforce, in the reviews section of this website. This amp still amazes me months later.

I just purchased a Spectron Musician III (not the SE mk ii version), and should receive it in about a week. Am looking forward to trying it with my inefficient MBL 121 monitors. I've already dabbled with Class D - a pair of the older Nuforce 9.02 . I didn't like what I heard with those amps but based on what I've ready about the Spectron, I have high hopes that it will win me around. I will likely upgrade it to the SE mk ii later on, as funds allow, assuming I enjoy what I hear with the basic version. I'll update folks on my findings.

Yeap, Nuforce amps sure do not like travelling, may take a week of real playing time before they forget how much they disliked the airplane's cargo hold. . . until such time, they'll keep reminding you about how unhappy you have made them! [smiles!]

I just got a p9 and a pair of v2se's from nuforce to listen to for a couple of weeks. The are demo samples and according to the company are plenty worn in. I was told to let them run for 20 hrs or so and they should be ready.
I snuck a quick listen to make sure that everything was working and didnt like what I heard. I wont bother to describe till I do what the rep suggested and give them a day.
Will post my 2cents once I have spent a little time with them. Very helpful company to deal with so far. I called the number on the web site, talked to someone for a while and they sent everything out. Pretty simple.

08-08-08: Dcstep
Despite what one may read, Onkyo and PS-A are not in the elite class of ICEPower or Class D. They're good value for the money, but not really top contenders. PS and Onkyo have significant marketing budgets that garner them many reviews vs. the boutique makers with little or no budget.

Neither PS Audio nor Onkyo use the ICE module, but rather have engineered and patented their own approaches. I do find it interesting that both Abso!ute Sound and Stereophile both reviewed a well-built but mid-fi priced audio product from Onkyo. There's an awful lot of Onkyo and Denon gear that these two mags *don't* review, or only obliquely rather than formally.

Despite what one may read, Onkyo and PS-A are not in the elite class of ICEPower or Class D. They're good value for the money, but not really top contenders. PS and Onkyo have significant marketing budgets that garner them many reviews vs. the boutique makers with little or no budget.

Dave

08-03-08: Coffeey
... I've listened to two different class d amps,and they didnt sound to bad,but just didnt pull me enough to pursue further so i sold them,it does seem they are quite promising.

With the disclaimer that I've not auditioned class D amps in any formal manner, I've read a lot and gotten some sense of concensus. The only two class D amps I've come across that consistently collect favorable reviews, eliciting descriptions such as "smooth," "musical," and "involving" are the range of PS Audio amps and the modest little Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp.

The Onkyo lists at $700 but is easy to find under $500. Both Stereophile and The Abso!ute Sound gave it enthusiastically favorable reviews. The only thing that has caused me to hesitate buying one is that it has no pre-outs, and I might like to bi-amp. The reviews of the Onkyo also mentioned that it had excellent bass extension, tight bass control, and excellent yet musical clarity throughout. Yet its damping factor is a mere 25.

This PS Audio overview of their GCA power amp series mentions that their first-gen HCA-series amps of this topology only managed a damping factor of 25-30 as well. So that makes me wonder if switching amps manage to assert tight control without a measurably high damping factor. Still, the overview also mentions that for their new GCA line they figured out how to up the damping factor considerably.

Never say "never", but I've not seen a Class D preamp and don't expect to. Class D is a method of producing high power with low heat, compact size and low weight. Since preampss are low power devices, the advantages of Class D are not really needed, at least in audiophile applications. Maybe in car audio, has anyone seen a Class D head in a car audio system?

Dave

Are there any Class D preamps? If not, are there likely to be any in the near future?

At HE2007, I listened to two systems with Bel Canto REF1000 and S300 amps. The sound from both of these systems was a bit grainy on top. There was enough bottom slam, but it wasn't as clean and tight as some other tube and ss amps at the show. The systems were totally different for each amp, but these qualities were consistent for some reason. This finding was quite surprising to me as I was expecting the BC amps to sound clean, articulate and fast, based on impressions from reviewers and other users.

In the end, I ended up getting the Spectron M3 SE. After 5 or 6 months, I got another one and set them up in balanced mono-block configuration. I couldn't be happier with my choice.

iSanchez

I dont think its funny at all its a legitimate ?I've listened to two different class d amps,and they didnt sound to bad,but just didnt pull me enough to pursue further so i sold them,it does seem they are quite promising.I'm still keeping a open mind on them.

Sorry Jimmy, I have no experience what so ever with multichannel gear. . . NuForce or otherwise. Guido

Guidocorona
Have you heard the nuforce multichannel? I am looking for 3ch and talked to nuforce about 3 of the monos. They suggested the 7ch amp because it was less expensive that 3 monos and the SQ was the same.

G - will do!
I will ask about playing time. they are dedicated audition amps so hopefully they will have some time on them already.