Cbr, I liked the Jolida 100 loaded with Sylvania Black Plates very much. |
Im currently using a Jolida (100A) tube CD player and Cary (CAD 5500) tube preamp with my Wyred 4 Sound Amplifier (S200). Having some form of tube in your system, let it be CD player or preamp, hooked to a class D amplifier Really bring out the best from these type of amplifiers. This mix has giving me a much more balance and dynamic sound. The sound stage & detail is out of this world.
Im was lucky to have the opportunity to hear this combination before I purchased my Wyred 4 Sound amplifier. I been so impressed that I went ahead and sold my Krell KSA 100s and never looked back.
To be honest I could not be happier with my Wyred 4 Sound amplifier . I high recommend this combination.
Im sure, I would need to spend a lot, a lot more money to even come close to the sound my system is currently producing.
If you are considering purchasing a class D amplifier take a look at the Wyred 4 Sound amplifiers. Nothing comes close to these amplifiers at the current price.
Merry Xmas
PS
Great Xmas Gift
www.wyred4sound.com |
I have been told that Simon has left Spectron and is now with Joule-Electra. I suppose now the new Marianne pre-amp will be the premier pre-amp, at least according to Simon who will now be working for the company that is producing it. I am sure this new pre-amp will be very nice. I was also told it will be pricey. |
In a few weeks I will try new flagship of Joule-Electra, Marianne Electra Memorial Edition Preamp - just to be shown at CES 2009. If you recall that their previous preamp got Harry Pearson of TAS Golden Ear in 2007 then I expect very good rersults.
I will try this preamp with Spectron monoblocks and I will post my impressions
All The Best
Rafael |
I would like to report wonderful results combining a Lamm LL2 pre-amp with Bel Canto Ref 1000 mkii mono's.
Tubes + Class D really works well!
Tubes + Class D when matched properly = warmth + body combined with detail and power. To my ears thats wonderful!!!!
I had earlier auditioned standalone class D in the form of JRDG Continuum 500 integrated. This was ok but much less desirable than having a tube front end. |
Following on from my earlier posts on 26/7/08 and 8/9/08, i have now had my Bel Canto Ref 1000 (mk1) in my system for a few months and i'm now really liking the combination with my Supratek Chenin tube preamplifier. Ask me back in July when i first got them, i would say it was a mistake but not now. Earlier concern about soundstage depth is no longer and i found the combo very musical and condusive to prolonged listening. They may not be in the top echelon with top end resolution but enough to allow me to enjoy the benefits brought about by my new TW Acustic Raven 1.
I'm sure the new and more expensive Bel Canto Mk 2 will sound better with the improved input stage but i'm in no hurry to find out at the moment. |
Ait,
I have no issue if you are happy with your Gilmore amp. Just don't over generalize it by saying that it, quote: "In my evaluation, the Gilmore blew the NuForce Ref 9 SE V2 completely and utterly out of the water." w/o a caveat that it may not be representative of a perfectly functioning unit.
Also, the fact that the Nuforce had RF issue in your system means that your system isn't compatible with the amp. However, you weren't willing to investigate further to alleviate the noise before your auditioning, or get another sample to try. But instead went on to trash the amp the way you did. Fact is, nobody here but yourself mentioned noise issues with Nuforce for this latest V2 version means your experience is an aberation, not the norm. If you made mention of the noise issues, nobody would question your assessment under such condition.
Happy listening,
Kenobi |
Yoby i have gone around the block with different footers for my Nuforce amps. I have found Mapleshades brass footers tighten up imaging and just help produce a sound a like better than the rest. Amazing how just a small part of a system can make a large difference in your systems musical presentation. Thats why you need to experiment so you can hear a difference good or bad.
Ait no doubt about it early Nuforce amps had a big RF problem that is well documented. As someone who has gone the upgrade route from standard ref 9 to SE to V2 i never experienced any RF or other problems except a loose connection on the last upgrade that was handled by Nuforces fine customer service dept very quickly. I dont have a tuner so maybe thats the reason for no RF issues. Nuforce has claimed that the RF problem has been resolved.
Bottom line if you are happy in music now thats all that matters. |
As I've said many times, I'm not trying to trash your systems. You love them and that's great for you.
The NuForce problem I had was due to RF emission, I am sure of that. I used a heavily broken in demo unit that had hundreds of hours of use on it, so I don't think it was a break-in issue. Maybe the demo system I had was defective, who knows. It was certainly much worse sounding than either of the other amps I auditioned, and it caused a noticable rise in my system's background moise level just by inserting it into the loop. |
Hi Kenobi. You're absolutely correct about hard spiky cones (been there, done that). The NuForce feet are definitely good just by themselves. I found, however, in my system I was looking for a more "soft" presentation. I installed some Bright Star Audio Isonodes (the large ones) under the fixed feet of the NuForce amps. Mainly because I had them lying around. They gave me just what I was looking for! |
Hi Guidocorona,
Thank you for your confirmation. It took me a while, at least a few weeks for the sound to mature and probably a few months to where its at currently.
Audiophiles are an impulsive bunch and not the most patient. I am also one. Luckily, this time, I stuck around and am being rewarded. Many who did not have successful integration with their systems didn't give it the proper time and a bit of care in priming the unit to the rest of their system. In my case, I didn't discover its magic until I got rid of hard spiky cones and other detailed-wrenching isolation bases (and replaced with softer, more balanced ones) from the rest of my components. Turned out the NuForce amp itself had that in spades and needed no help in that area. A bit of warmth from cabling or upstream sources will nicely balance its inherent attributes and allow it to play music the way its intended.
Best regards,
Kenobi |
Thanks Kenobi, now I do remember the review. I can only guess that AIT may have been dealing with a NuForce right out of the factory or with very incomplete break in, or dead cold. Only on a dead cold and recently installed NuForce I have experienced noticeable artifacts at the top. These went away gradually with time. . . and completely. |
Hi Guidocorona, Jim and anyone interested,
Here's the review Ait did some time ago where he referenced the Nuforce Ref 9V2SE with others:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ramps&1205629120
I believe this is an aberation, perhaps limited to his set up, and not a typical scenario for the Nuforce.
Regards,
Kenobi |
I have never had a noise issue with my V2 SE's either. I will agree that power conditioning and lots of break in really make big differences with these amps. |
Hi Kenk168, I have never experienced noise with the excellent Nuforce Ref 9SE V2. under what circumstances may such noise show up and become a problem? |
Ait,
I think you need to mention that your assessment of the Gilmore amp as compared to the Nuforce was based on experience w/ your particular system where the Nuforce Ref 9SE V2 had issue with noise. I mentioned before that the Nuforce once properly set up, will shine like no others but only IF properly set up. Now, the top of the line Gilmore is based on the ICE power ISP 1000 module of which I have experienced in my previous amps, the Bel Canto 1000. The comparison wasn't even close, the Nuforce was head and shoulder above the Bel Canto (SOLD) and I would think the Gilmore could not be be much different.
Just my $.02.
Kenobi |
Muralman1 aint it just grand when we get our system to sound the way we wanted it to. As you already know it takes a lot of time and effort to get the best from your system, sitting pat wont do. You can get the sound you thought was possible. Glad you have yours sounding the way you hoped.
Enjoy the music. |
Yours is a great system, Stltrains. Your sound is, "Very easy to sit and listen to." My sound leans more to the live band. That is what I prefer. That is the marvelous thing about class D. It's sound can be sculpted to any preference. |
Bostonbean thanks for the kind words on my system i've put in alot of time and effort to get the sound i am receiving now which is to my ears is superior. Imaging, sound stage, bottom end and air along with a super 3 D delivery. Along with many different components going in and out of the system the wife and myself have logged many hours enjoying music with it.
Muralman1 i have gone the upgrade route with my amps two offered in the past 3 years. One of the best moves in the right direction was going with a tubed preamp with Siemens cca tubes using my class D amps. I also think that my preference to analog playback with vinyl adds to what my amps and system can deliver. A very easy to sit and listen sound. |
There are a lot of wizened people contributing to this topic. Several are mirroring my experience over the four years I went class D over conventional amps. What I thought was really cool then would be nonsense to my ears now. With the narrowing down the components that do work, and those that don't my sound has taken leaps to ever more accurate fidelity. Like Guidocorona says, Patience is needed.
Oh, on topic, I am using a class A preamp of unearthly quality. The tubes are in the non-oversampling DAC. |
Hi Jaspert, there are only 3 things that matter when inserting switching amps in a system: patience, patience, and more patience. Once you have logged a little over 1000 hrs of playing time on them, the BC will probably be starting to give you their best. . . and at that time you'll know if they are truly for you or not. G. |
After my earlier concern expressed in the earlier post on 26/7/08 , I continue to log long hours with Supratek Chenin tube pre + Bel Canto Ref 1000 combintion. After 2 weeks,the ICE power amp sound has changed quite a lot.
I was initially told they've about 200 hours on them but the seller later said they would be lucky to have 50 hours playing time before i got them. Hmmm..
I later emailed Mick Maloney and he clarified that Chenin output impedance is actully 200 ohm , not 600 ohm i stated earlier and with the 20 kohm balance input impedance of the BC Ref 1000 matching should not be an issue.
As for the sound, the veiled, congested and rolled off sound i heard a few weeks ago has definitely disappeared. The top end has more sparkle and instrument separation is better now. These changes are not that subtle to my ears. I could hear some graininess in the HF region from a few recordings again and i certainly hope this won't get more pronouced as i can't stand sibilant sound. It's not all rosy though as another impression i get is the bass is just a bit plodding and PRAT could be better relative to my old amp. Over the two and half week period, i did put my Bryston 4BSST back in 3 times just to compare and confirm my impression.
I think burn in is definitely real with these ICE power amplifier.I was all ready to sell them 2 weeks ago but now i think they could be long term keeper. May be..
|
Stltrains, Hear, hear and nice looking system you have. |
"Addressing the vibration and the AC should be seriously considered before applying the tube preamp band aid"
Vicdamone i concur big time with your statement above. I'm not using sandbags but i am addressing vibrations also as well as AC and the improvements are very audible for sure.
Any one who bashes any gear is a fool. There is enough equipment out there for all to find enjoyment and as we all hear differently who cares what type of gear blows your skirt up. We are all in this for musical enjoyment i suspect and the way you get it done is your musical happiness business. I"ve had some interesting volleys with some bashers in the past dealing with gear. Hell its your ears and money listen to what pleases you. |
"What, no class D bashing? Have we finally arrived?"
Vicdamone, I've been there for a spell. . . as far as I am concerned class D is one more perfectly legitimate amplification technology, like everything else replete with the bad, the good. . . and the ugly. G. |
What, no class D bashing? Have we finally arrived?
IMO Jwarmbrand's suggestion is more to the point. With class D the question isn't so much tube or solid state it's getting as much off the grid as possible. My Nuforce SE's took on a much fuller and more quiet presentation when I replaced an upgraded A I 3A with my current battery powered pre.
Unfortunately the resolution and transparency offered by many class D designs is often misdiagnosed as sterile or forward. My system benefited greatly from a new metal clad conduit, dedicated AC line, and from mass loading the SE's casework with some DIY sandbags. Addressing the vibration and the AC should be seriously considered before applying the tube preamp band aid.
All my vacuum tubes have now migrated from the back end to the front. The output section of my ModWright/Denon player is tube driven as is my FM tuner. There is no substitution for the effect tubes can have on an audio system and I haven't heard any solid state or class D product that sounds like tubes. Likewise, I haven't heard a tube system that sounds like a well executed class D system.
I have heard noise at low listening levels from the four tube preamps I auditioned in my system. Not that big of a deal and the noise wasn't an issue at louder levels. I think there is a battery powered tube preamp, Dodd? |
Hi Bostonbean, with an input impedance of 50K Ohms on both RCA and XLR connectors, the Spectron Mus 3 Sig II should be quite easy to interface with almost any tube pre. My current favorite tubed line stages are the ARC Ref 3 and the VTL 6.5, but I have not tried them with the Spectron. |
The Red Wine Audio Isabella (with built-in dac) battery powered tube preamp + Red Wine Audio battery powered Signature 30.2 amp - as long as you do not need a ton of power and it is in your budget, you will be seduced by the sound! I own this pairing and cannot recomend it highly enough!
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Isabella.html
http://www.redwineaudio.com/Signature_30.2.html
-Jeff |
Since this topic is being discussed any thoughts on THE tube preamp to go with the new Spectron Musician III Signature Edition MKII. Budget in the $7-8K range or less, of course. HT bypass would be nice but seems like most companies are adding that option now. thanks |
Heard Red Dragon monos. Very dynamic but far too dark sounding for my particular taste. Guido |
Has anybody tried the Red Dragon Leviathans?
I saw a set in the classifieds and checked out the reviews I could find online. All good reviews. I have magnepans and a tube Rogue Perseus Pre. Using a Rotel SS right now. |
Jaspert, with 150 to 200 hrs on them, the Bel Canto are likely not even a quarter broken in. If at about 1,000 hrs of making real music -- not idle time -- they are still not of your liking, it may be time to move on. Do keep us posted. |
I'm not after more mid range warmth/bloom from the new Bel Canto as the existing setup (not from the Bryston 4BSST) has a bit of that compared to other systems i've heard. I was hoping for more resolution and more dynamic sound from the new pairing.
In terms of impedance matching, i think the Supratek Chenin has about 600 ohm output impedance and the balance inputs on the Bel Canto are 20 ohm. Surprisingly, i have to dial up a bit more volume control to make the sound come alive when compared to the 300W/500W 8/4ohm Bryston.
I've asked the seller for their background and he stated they have about 150~ 200 hours playing time so i will give them more time to burn in and report back later if there's joy to be had. |
Grandetech, from an impedance match you should be fine. Your ratio is 25000 / 400 = 62.5. I suspect that anything greater than a ratio of 25 is above the 'waterline'. G. |
forget to mention, mine is 400ohm output from pre, 25k ohm input on amp, does it mean very bad matching? |
Guido, sorry to hijack the thread a bit, since you asking, may I know what is a good matching impedance? Does it mean an equal value of them or there is a factor? |
Bel Canto are never bloomy Jaspert. But your BCs are likely needing several hundreds hrs of real playing time (probably 500 to 1000) before stabilizing. . . . Turn on the tuner and let the creatures make music for a spell. . . and it may very well be that in the end you will still not enjoy them, or you may find Nirvana instead. Also consider that switching amps like better to be used in a balanced configuration. One last issue is impedance matching between your Chenon and the BC. What's the output impedance of the pre and input impedance of BC? g |
Well, three days isn't enough burn-in, but if you like extra midrange bloom, then Bel Canto is probably not for you. Rowland will not work for you either. You'll need excellent sources with most Class D/ICEPower amps.
Dave |
I have a Supratek Chenin tube preamp usually paired with a Bryston 4BSST driving a pair of Dynaudio Confidence C1 in a 5x4 m room. I just picked up a pair of used but fairly new Bel Canto Ref 1000 monoblocks 2 days ago and was all excited about trialling my first class D amp after reading all the rave reviews, especially 6moons.
Well after 3 days, i'm disappointed and perplexed. Adding the BC Ref 1000 has sucked the life and excitement out of my system. The high sounds rolled off to me,lacking air and i struggle to hear the attack/leading edge of piano strokes during Solo piano recording. Soundstage depth is so so and everything sounds a bit homogenised.
My personal taste is for a bit of warmth and bloom in mid range as a neutral system will grate my ears after a short while. I'm aware of the tubey warmth some reviewer has elluded in the reviews but this is too much. So far it's no high end bargain.
I don't know how many hours they had before i got them and wonder if burning in will help. I left them powered on as suggested but the sound is still lacklustre so far. Gr..... |
Yoby, you hit on a great combination. A sweet tubed pre-amp with a SOTA class D. I ended up with my Modwright while looking for a deHavilland. Funny thing, nobody wanted to sell theirs! Still, I love my rig. I wish I could hear everyone else's rig. Wait, maybe not, I would just spend more money! |
Im using a deHavilland Mercury II preamp with the NuForce 9.02 SE V2 amps in single ended mode with stunning results |
Stltrains, what is your amp+pre combo exactly? Guido |
Jaffa_777 No problems here with my class D tubed pre combo. The addition of my tubed preamp was a step in a better direction for my class D amps and system. A warmer presentation indeed. |
I suspect you're right Guido, or it could be the new capcitors.
Anyone got a Continuum 250 (without PFC) and would they share their burn-in experience???
Dave |
Hi Dave, the different and hotter running PFC circuit in the new Continuum 500 integrated may account for shorter break in time than on 300 series stereos, as well as JRDG monos without PFC like 201 and 501. In general, I prefer to be conservative when it comes to break in times. . . too many folks give up on a device prematurely because of their impatience with break in. G. |
Guido and I tend to agree, but I must report that my Continuum 500 seemed fully burned-in by 200-hours. Jeff is constantly improving, so maybe his latest capacitors or something else changed the burn-in characteristic.
Others I trust report 500+ hours for 501s and 201s, so I don't think that Guido is "hearing things" that don't exist. Instead, I think that the landscape is changing very quickly and Rowland evidently hit on several ways to advance his pre and power amps very recently.
Dave |
Hi Larry, yes the device was very likely a 302. I have heard it a couple of times, driven by an aRC Ref 3 in both occasions. 302 was JRDG 1st gen switching amp with internal PFC. . . not bad for a first attempt, but I also observed some of the problems you found: only very moderate macro and micro dynamics, and a treble that was not too extended. These problems are solved completely by its successor--the current 312 model. Conversely, a clearly anomalous/strange sound in the treble region was probably caused by insufficient breakin or warm up. Switching amps seem to be total bears and may require well over 1000 hrs of playtime to break in. . . or at least the JRDG 312 and NuForce V9SE definitely do. The symptom seemed to me of a treble that sounds almost harmonically disjointed from the rest of the audible spectrum, and disconcertingly displeasing to boot. . . but the issue goes away completely with proper break in and warm up. . . it's just an unusual temporary artifact of these devices. |
Hi Guidocorona,
It was a massive, single chassis stereo amp. I think the model number was 302, but, I am not sure. The owner used it to power Kharma speakers, but sold it in favor of a Hovland amp after buying a pair of Sonus Faber Anniversarios. We got to play with it prior to it being shipped to a buyer in the far east. |
Hi Larry, do you happen to remember if the JRDG device in question was a stereo or mono amp? and if mono pair. . . whaht physical size/weight?
G |
Hi Guidocorona,
It was one of the earlier Class D amps, though I don't recall the model number. I bet it was still low on the learning curve and subsequent models have been improved.
I am hesitant to talk about "tube magic," because it means different things to different people, and because MOST tube gear I hear completely lack what I look for in tube gear (particularly, high-powered pentode amps driven by KT-88/6550s disappoint). In my setup, I did not fully get what I was looking for until I found a suitable tube linestage and a tube phonostage to match with my parallel single ended triode amp. The Levinson No. 32, which I still keep as a backup, did not quite deliver what my Emotive Audio Epifania delivers.
I am not saying that tubes are superior. In systems where more power is needed, I think that solid state is often much more desirable than high-powered tubes -- different horses for different course. I bet Class D would be the appropriate choice in some applications. The point is, one cannot make a generic choice, trial is the only reliable method. Also, I think one will usually not find success trying to compensate for strengths and weaknesses based on perceived individual qualities of particular components; the results are too haphazard for that.
There is a lot of practical sense in sticking with one brand for amplification or to go with an integrated -- usually, a good designer has worked out such compatibility issues. |
