CD v. SACD

They want market penetration and poor little me can't afford Accuphase prices. They want the public to find out about SACD and that can only happen if it's affordable. Less than 1% of audiophiles can pay $16,500 for Accuphase hi end, which may or may not be better than an SCD-1(opinions vary). So we can get Sony A quality and pay one fifth of A+. Remember, Sony wants the 99% group desperately, so SACD can succeed. Sony is starting to release more and more hybrids and their production will be up to 25 million disc per year capacity soon. And last time I checked, the Dolby and DTS 5.1 tracks still won't play on my computer, home, or car CD player. I'm not from Canada so I would'nt venture to comment on that situation. But I hope they do go the hybrid way, because it's the only option for success of the format in my opinion. By the way I do own a Toshiba SD9200 and it's one heck of a player. I feel that DVDA betters Redbook by some margin, but does'nt compare to my SCD-1. Gary.

Maybe because "we" whine too much about the technology not being perfected instead of letting Sony release it and see what needs to be improved from an end-users perspective! Why would they stick a lot more money into a format that is regularly denigrated by people who know little or nothing about it???

Yes the DVD A track will only play in a DVD A player the other will play on anything. How many Dual layer SACD are availabe. Last trip to Bestbuy and all they had was single layer.
And to make maters worse SONY Canada is not supporting Dual layer Format. That tell me a whole lot about how Sony is commited to the format.

One other thought. Why do we not get Sony A+ gear in North America. Why do we get what the Asian market wont put up with in terms of Sonics.

Natalie,I understand you hate Sony and have an opinion regarding their players, but don't spread false information. No you cannot play the DVDA track on anything other than a DVDA player. You can play any of the lower resolution tracks(Dolby,DTS,etc.), but you cannot play DVDA on anything other than a DVDA player; period. The same holds true for SACD. SACD's(non-hybrid), can only be played on SACD players but hybrids can be played on any SACD player, CD player and DVD player(compatable with Redbook). That puts hybrid SACD's in ten times(at least) the number of players DVDA would be compatable with. Gary.

Just got the Lindemann. Great sacd and cd playback.

Carefully read the post.
Are other CD Players significantly bette at CD Playback.
No where is SACD mentioned.
Point being you will find significantly better CD player at half the amount of the SONY which is a Horrible CD player.

At this point stick to a CD player.

DVD A may just win this battle in the end. You can play DVD A in any DVD player. Cant do that with SACD.

yes, redbook CD is flawed. there's a general rule of thumb in audio engineering that you can't expect to accurately reproduce any frequency above one third of your sampling rate. for redbook that would be 14.7 kHz. sounds like a flaw? try digitizing pure sine waves at 44.1 kHz and see what starts happening above 15 kHz. it starts to look like crap, not like a sine wave.

"IMO redbook CD is a flawed medium which as been fantastically tweaked to sound much better than it originally sounded."

Wow, I don't even know how to respond to that; at any rate, enjoy the music, I am!

Brian, I have a tendency to sound more dogmatic than I probably am. It was not my intention to argue as much as perhaps discuss the differences in opinion. IMO redbook CD is a flawed medium which as been fantastically tweaked to sound much better than it originally sounded.
I do beleive SACD is a much better format and I thought that was what we were discussing. The potential for SACD is much better than CD, and I would hate to see the format disappear before it matures to reveal what might be developed. I am not denying that Sony is probably playing games with consumers to protect their patents, but I still like to think it's about the music.
Regardless I still prefer the sound of LPs which IMO is better than CD or SACD.

Gary, thank you for the clarification. To further some clarification, I do not disagree that the new formats can outperform CD. I had two points/positions within this thread:

One, CD can sound good, even excellent, contrary to a comment made that it can't.

Two, the lack of availability of software for the new formats, CD may give you most enjoyment yet at this time, and further, there are some awesome CD players out right now that, IMO, will exceed the performance of a majority of the SACD "players", don't confuse my comments of players vs. formats.

From my experience, I do not view the review in question as inaccurate.

Thanks for the follow up, I do not think we are that far apart.

This was not directed at you Brian, I'm sorry my post came off that way. Yes I know the SCD-1 was used in the review, you would have to live under a rock to not know. My post was regarding the thread and many threads I see here and Audio Asylum(digital drive) and others who site the same thing. I do respect your opinion on this subject, being that you have lived with the players in question. But I honestly do feel that anyone who thinks CD(Redbook) has more to offer than SACD, is just deluding themselves. Just my opinion. Gary.

Gary, I am not sure where you are coming from! I sometimes wonder if some read all things before posting. First of all, if you read the review, you will notice that the reviewers reference player is the SCD-1. Second, your allusions to the "redbook" crowd using this review as gospel is way off base. (I am ne poster, who are you including?) You will notice that I have several posts on this, endless, thread before I ever even mention this review, yet I have known of it the whole time. Gosh this is frustrating.

Let me make my stance even clearer, I have owned the SCD-1, I had the 508.24 for 4 years before that, for the third time I will say, I think the SCD-1 is a good player, but it did not hold a candle to the EMC1-UP. If you choose not to believe me, that is your right. But for those that may be following this thread or reading later and may be questioning which way to go, I give you my experience for you to consider, please read all my posts though.

I have nothing against SACD itself!!! (If I haven't made that clear yet!) Please read my very first post, it is the second on the list, I gave pro's and con's for each as well as my thoughts.

If I was a "hardcore redbooker", as you state, I would of never purchased the SCD-1 in the first place, so spare me the accusations. Comments such as, "blind faith in one review", touch a nerve, remember, I have owned your player myself.

It seems some accuse people of doing the very thing they are doing.

With all due respect Brian, since this review was released some 2-3 months ago, it seems to be the only saving grace for hard core redbookers. I've yet to see anyone site any other source for comparing redbook to any SACD player, much less the SCD-1. I do own an SCD-1, but have not compared it's sound to any of the elite redbook players. I have heard many of the 3000-4000(Cary, Rega, Arcam)players and can say that I feel it holds it's own against them playing cd's. Opinions vary and some don't like the Sony's presentation, but let's not forget this machine was built to showcase SACD. The players i've mentioned don't even come close to it's SACD performance in my opinion. The SCD-1 is nearly 4 years old and is still at the top of it's game, and all of a sudden 1 review states that redbook is better and it's taken as gospel by the redbook crowd. This is my first post and I'm not trolling. I just don't understand all this blind faith in 1 review, your opinion notwithstanding. Gary.

I am not looking to "argue" Nrchy. Why are my opinions unsubstantiated and yours not? I have been quite clear in my comments/opinions; I will state again, I have owned the Sony SCD-1 and it is a good player, but I find the EMC1-UP CD player that I am now using surpasses the performance of the SCD-1, SACD included. You stated that CD cannot sound good, I disagree, my point all along.

If you read my past comments, you will see that I do not argue to potential of SACD.

It would "appear" to me, that you feel your 777 playing SACD's will outperform any CD player, if this is a correct assumption of what you believe, I disagree. (Based on units I have owned.)

If you would like a reviewers opinion, read the following review and note that the player reviewed is not the latest upgraged version.
http://www.stereotimes.com/trans070302.shtm

I certainly can't argue intelligently with your unsubstantiated opinion.

And I will again disagree with you Nrchy about CD's being a "waste of time".

My point which NataLIE will never be able to understand is the sampling rate of redbook CD players is too low to reproduce music accurately. SACD by virtue of it's sampling rate is emanantly more capable of accurate musical reproduction. SACD still has improvements to make in the playback, but inspite of this it still is superior to the products NataLIE is talking about.
Lots of companies have spent millions of dollars trying to get redbook CD players to sound good but it is ultimately a waste of time. We would all be better off if more people got behind a medium more capable of giving us the sound quality that cheap LPs already provide. That being SACD.
NataLIE is not worth arguing with. He does not understand the technology or have the ears to listen anyway. He is against anything he does not understand, which is virtually everything taking place here. Follow his threads and see for yourself!

Kayakfit... "redbook" cd refers to the standard cd that has been out for 20 years now. SACD (super audio compact disc) is Sony and Phillips attempt to hold on to the patent they have on digital recordings with cds that is expiring. DVD-A (digital versatile disc-audio) is Panasonic's (and the rest of the packs) attempt to knock them off the "hill" and take over the next digital format. In both cases, removing our ability to make copies of the discs is the overriding motive for the format change. Thats not to say the new formats are not better than redbook, but the question is which will win the format war and become the new standard.

SONY's CD players (most of them) can sound bright. But there are not always bad things about SONY. Higher end SONY's transport actually last pretty long time in my experience. Therefore, I am confident in mod on a good SONY CD or DVD player. Because the transport is unlikely to die young!

Among my friends, I notice that SONY and PIONEER's high end DVD players usually have less problem of skipping marginal quality DVD or CD. This is a good sign for tracking and accurate reading of digital signals on disks. I have to agree that those mass production company invested enough to make sure these things work well.

Small company did lots of work on analog part, I think, that's why their output driver is usually better than mass production ones. There is not much room (money & technology) to develop a new digital processing format for a small company. DAC chips, everbody can buy better one when newer/better design come out, if you have $$.

For XA777ES, it is a quite warm sound player (unlike most of SONY). IMHO rega planar is not better this one (others can't comment, never compare them). Other good redbook players mentioned previously probably cost about the same as a high end SONY anyway. There is no excuse if they sound bad on their specialty: redbook. Eventually, small company will come out good SACD player if SACD do succeed. But you need big companies to drive DSP technology and market for their own profit and for serious audiophiles too.

Who else on this site once say "If you give up on SACD, then they will do MP3 for bigger market". Then later, you will hear some guys claim their MP3 player sounds better than mega $$ CD player. That would be a big mistake for audiophile.

From LP to CD, dynamic range is compressed, SACD pulled back to wider range to reach LP. If you go MP3, man!, we are going backward!

Natalie, I certainly don't want to be in the argument between the two of you, but a further clarification; my reply to Nrchy was the fact that he believes that CD cannot sound good, I disagree and when I say it was no comparison when I switched from the SCD-1 to the EMC1-UP, I was including SACD on the Sony.

Brianmgrarcom
you hit it right on Nrchy thinks the SONY ES777 is a decent redbook player Its not Its got a Brutal Analog stage which requires a 1K plus mod to sound good.

If he where to listen to a real Cd Player
EMC-1
BAT-VK-5
Rega Jupiter and a Planet 2000
Musical Fidelity Nu vista or even an A3CD
Anything from Linn or NAIM

Then he might know what redbook is capable of.

I have missed 20 other player that smoke the ES777 as a REDBOOK player.

+ all the DAC's that are available.

I am not saying SACD VS Redbook VS DVD A audio.
What I am stating is that SONY ES777 is not a good redbook player and that a decent redbook player does red book better than any Sony SACD.
Nrchy Bound For Sound does not take 1 cent of Adverising money in. They do not make a magazine that for every page of add revenue it gets you get 1 page of content.
There is no bias and many MFGS wont send gear to BFS because they will poo poo bad gear.

Point is SONY make horrible sounding REDBOOK players that need 1K + of mods to sound good as red book players.

There is so much need for this service that there are a half dozen if not more companies out there who make a living out of moding Sony Gear.

Thats the point not SACD sound VS CD VS DVD A.

Nrchy, I wouldn't say CD cannot sound good, you may just not have heard it on a great CD player. We all have our opinions here, but I would not hestitate to put the a good CD player against your SACD player; I have owned the Sony SCD-1 player, it is a good player, but I am now using the EMC1-UP and there is no comparison. I want it clear that I am not bashing SACD, just making an observation.

1) What?

2) I think DVD-A and SACD are fully capable of catching all of vinyl's skips, pops, scratches, hiss, and rumble.

3) zoooooowwwwwww

24 bit and higher sample rate can improve the sound than redbook CD format. Natalie, that guy in your review like the tube output stage, which has nothing to do CD or SACD. I think you are referring an improper review to justify SACD vs CD. If we put the same driver CKT and same quality DAC. 24 bit will of couse beat 18 bit! Try to hear the dynamic range of 24 bit vs. 18 bit on a symphony. If you can't hear the difference, think about your set-up if it is good enough to reflect this advantage from SACD.

If you like tube sound much like I do. Buy good tube gears or even put tube in you CD player. However, don't confuse with SACD vs. CD.

I own >800 redbook CD, still like to keep good CD player.
But will push for better technology if they can potentially be better.
Don't think your preference of one particular CD player over a SONY SACD player provide any evidence of redbook is better. Both my ears and my physics knowledge show me which one is better!

Maybe you don't like Ford make money from you.
But no reason to argue your horse runs faster than a car.

Why should anyone care what bound for sound say but not care what stereophile says??? NataLIE you denagrate the rags until someone agrees with you. That is hypocracy of the worst sort. Either they always suck, or they are always reliable. You can't pick and choose that way.
Kayakfit, SACD stands for Super Audio Compact Disc. It is an attempt on Sonys part to fix all the problems they started when they realeased those garbage CD players twenty years ago. DVD-A is another high resolution digital audio format that is not compatable with SACD. The sound is also much better than the garbage Redbook CDs foisted on us by innumerable companies just so they can be competetive in the market. CDs are incapable of great sound, SACD and DVD-A on the other hand are capable of good sound. That's not the same as saying they are there yet though. None of them match vinyl yet.

Hey, I've been elsewhere since vinyl left center stage: Could someone take a moment to clarify what digital formats exist, what the initials stand for, and whether any of these are home-recordable? Thank you.

I note with interest that Stereophile has rated the 777 as Class A in their October 'recommended components' issue FWIW

www.boundforsound.com
read the article thats on the net re the 777.

The Sony DVP-NS900V is a whole different creature than the other Sony players being discussed in this thread. For one thing, it is not an ES model. It is just a mass produced consumer product as compare to the ES model which is designed with attention to audiophile needs. Also, it is not a dedicated audio player. It is a DVD/CD/SACD player. The addition of all the video circuits/processors is a big negative for the overall audio performance. Therefore, I can see why Natalie may be unhappy with the player.

Nrchy If you think its a good redbook plyaer fine. Thats great. Most people feel its below standard on redboook. I agree with them. I have yet to hear any Sony Unit do Redbook as well as any other competitor in the same price range. Nothing Sony Makes beats Rega in the same price point.

I have never listened to a DVPNS900V. I don't even know what it is, but I own the SCD 777es and it sounded good in the store and sounded better at home. I don't care what Bound for Sound or any other rags says if it contradicts what I hear. I don't have a HT set-up and really don't care about DVD at this point, but in my understanding that's not what we are talking about here. Sony XA777es vs. Rega is easy. Buy the Sony because the format is better!

Nrchy do you discount what the reviewrs found in Bound For Sound.
Gp to the site www.boundforsound.
The only Audio Mag Left worth reading.
The Player DVPNS900V was a fllor model with many weeks of break in. I also put in on 24/7 play for a week.
I wanted it to be good. Its for a HT set up in the basement and would also like to get decent redbook. I was shocked. Literally shocked at how bad it soinded doing regular VD's.
I had borrowed a friends Hitachi P250u DVD player for a while. I found it ok to listen to it did not get on my nerves.
Well the Sony is painful to listen to in RedBook and Watching DVD concert Video's.

After looking at many different threads on this unit. I guess if you want to go out and spend 1K to mod it go for it. For a 3 K unit it should do redbook better.

Don't put too much stock in what NataLIE says or misspells. He was never said a good word about anything but is convinced of his own golden ears. I have had many good (not great) CD players in the last fifteen years and the Sony sounds better than my Nakamichi, Philips, or California Audio Labs. I have compared my Sony SCD 777es to CD players that cost 3 to 4 times what the Sony did and it faired very well my comparison.
The only thing that NataLIE has ever said that I could stoop to agree with is that Sony keeps their better products for their own asian market.

My .02 cents, from over the past month or so. I have used the Meridian 508.24 for over 4 years, I purchased a Sony SCD-1 a month or so ago; this is built like a tank as has been stated in many places I have read. As far the player itself, I didn't really like using it, as to the performance, I found it quite close to the 508.24 on Redbook CD's in my system; I had loaned each player to a friend and he thought there was no comparison, the 508 easily. We have totally differnce speaker setups, tradition box vs. planers; this would be my guess why there was such a difference on his system vs. mine.

I only aquired two SACD's, neither of which I had on CD, but they didn't set any new standard for me in audio playback, it could be I didn't have two good examples. (Dave Brubeck and SRV) My friend has the same Brubeck disk and we did feel the SACD version sounded better when each were played on the SCD-1.

I recently purchased the Electrocompaniet EMC1-UP, this has set a new standard in audio playback for me! I am amazed when listening to my music through this player and that with all the CD's I already own and are readily available.

I do not doubt the potential of the new formats, but with the introduction of some of the latest CD players, they have raised the level of Redbook up a whole new level.

If I had the three players in front of me and had to rate in order of my choise, it would be as is listed below , and my choices would be without hesitation.

1. EMC1-UP
2. 508.24
3. SCD-1

YMMV

your responses are always neat because they start off with dramatic but FALSE assumptions. actually I am not a blind follower of Sony. I don't really even like the concept of Sony. I was really suprised that they even have competing products. Everything is crap to me unless proven otherwise by my own ears. I don't like Sony televisions, they are overpriced and inferior. I have never owned anything Sony except a cassette walkman and DAT walkman.

Let's see, if the model number, which you refuse to give, doesn't matter, that means that its only the brand name that matters. So, if its Sony, it sucks? And there is no gain in sound quality wether you spend $200 or $5000? You know that is wrong. If you told me the model number at this point, I wouldn't believe you anyway. And since you can't make a point without a model number, your whole argument is wasted and useless now. You gotta love Audiogon threads!!!!!

Natalie
What Sony player did you have? Did it have a couple of weeks of solid run time before you sat down to listen to it?
Tim
Not a blind follower of Sony.

bufus, sorry I hear what your saying. Your a blind follower of Sony. Shame buy sound not a name.
Why does Sony not send thier best gear to North AMerica?

From the Bound For Sound Report.
" It seems that my review of the Sony XA777ES SACD last month has ruffled some feathers. And so it should have.
Suprisingly, very few of the correspondence questioned my findings regarding the sound of the 777. Instead, what I have been told over and over again by readers and manufactures worlwide is that the analog section in the 777 is terrible and in serious ned of modification. Of course, two of those recomendatios where from people who modify the units as thier business. But the complaints of inferior build quality in the analog section came from other sectors as well,including Marc Yun of these august pages"

This taken from Issue 145 of Bound For Sound.

This says a whole lot.

The further down the Sony Food chain you come the worse it gets.

Bufus the Model # is not important. Its the point.

When I put the Sony DVD/SACD in my two main system, it was nothing short of brutal. You could not listen to it.
Considering I am using a 5 year old NAK Music bank Changer I did expect the Sony should be better. But to really get a feel for how bad the Sony is its worse than my Ten Year Old Marantz LV-510 LD player.

Sony told us 20 years ago perfect sound forever. They lied. They are doing it again. Dont be a sheep and blindly loyal to a company who thinks North Americans are Second class and sends us thier B stock Product. Even the ES line is not up to par with what they MFG for the Asian market.

Natalie, your idea that Sony puts a lousy analog section for redbook doesn't make sense with what I've heard with my own two ears. You see, I think the Rega Planet sounds great, especially for its price. Now, the Sony, which costs less than the Rega, sounds BETTER than the Rega on redbook playback. If you start from that point and then realize that the SACD playback sounds even better, there's really nothing to complain about for someone who wants to buy in this price range, $600. In my opinion, the SCD-C555ES deserves a class "A" rating for SACD and probably for redbook also, at least an A- or B+.

Natalie, in another post, I asked you which Sony you had purchased. You never did say???????

I agree with Tonyp54,get a good hi-end cd player ,it'll last for years,do justice to your redbooks and you'll never be in a state of constant "wanting or anxiety"about the next new Sacd release. With all the software available now you'll be focusing on enjoying the music you have and and can purchase NOW, and not in some proposed hybrid disc future!I was not impressed with the Phillips Sacd player vs, my ARC CD3 in an a/b demo. My cd3 was just as good if not better than the Phillips playing Sacd and cd's IMHO. For more info on Sacd and what it doesn't do right go to: http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm

SACD is a gamble at this point. Sony is the only major record label supporting the format and they won't even supply a large enough inventory of sacds to justify the purchase. I have heard cds through the Sony 777 and Marantz SA-1 and was not impressed. You can do much more justice to your cd collection with a good dedicated cd player. I'm also curious how folks honestly think sacd compares to well recorded cds like xrcd, chesky, audioquest, etc.

Natalie and others, may I suggest to you the Hi Rez forum of www.audioasylum.com. There are tons of this kind of discussion on Sony SACD players there.

Natalie
I don't know what your smoking. Take a trip over to Tweakaudio.com and do some reading. Call Rick and tell him Sony sucks. This guy is well respected in the bussines of modifing high,low,and medium grade players. You have not a clue what you are talking about. On his advice I bought a DVP9000ES and am waiting for his mod. to come out.
Tim

Czbbcl your wrong. My facyts come 1 from what i have jheard and 2 from reviews.
Go to www.boundforsound.com Read the reviews and what many people have to say.
Get over the blind loyalty to SONY it is grossly misplaced

I don't know if this means anything, but I sold my MSD Gold Link & Powerbase because my DVP-9000ES blew them away. In certain price ranges, Sony arguably makes the best sounding CD (and SACD) players on the market.

Go with your ears and what sounds best to you. Good luck.

I recently moved from a Denon HDCD for Redbook and a 9000es for SACD to a new XA777es. BIG...BIG...BIG...difference. At less than $2000, what a deal. This format is only going to get better. With the Rolling Stones reissues in SACD, the Beatles and Sinatra can't be far behind.

Natalie is simply incorrect in his/her assesment of the sony players. The redbook quality of the sony players (scd-1/scd777es/xa777es) is extremely good and the sacd is simply outstanding.

Bufus only besause of the lousy Analog section Sony Purposly builds into these units. They are messing with you. Not a fair and equall comparison.

I compared the Sony SCD-C555ES SACD changer (now discontinued but still selling for $600 new) to my Rega Planet. The Sony, on redbook CD playback, had a more transparent/open soundstage and had a more musical/rythmic presentation. The first five seconds of the first song of the first SACD I ever played on the Sony was an amazing revelation. SACD is a huge step forward in progress over redbook.

There really is no contest between the XA777ES and any Rega player. In fact, at new or used prices, the XA777ES is the best player available under +3K. IF you manage to find an Audio Aero, Mephisto II, or EMC-1 MkII at or around the 3K range go for it, otherwise any other player you buy will be matched by the XA777ES and/or beat severely.

Keep in mind, the XA777ES is NOT a "show boat" type player like the early SCD-1, 777ES units which tend to have a more flashy outward sonic signature. I believe Sony did this to (over) emphasize the differences between its SACD format and regular CD to the general public...

The XA777ES is more subtle, sensuous, relaxed and convincing. SACD is less dramatic sounding - CD is better sounding. Actually the XA77ES makes CD's sound very, very good and near to SACD quality.

The 9000ES is a joke by comparison.