Natalie, I certainly don't want to be in the argument between the two of you, but a further clarification; my reply to Nrchy was the fact that he believes that CD cannot sound good, I disagree and when I say it was no comparison when I switched from the SCD-1 to the EMC1-UP, I was including SACD on the Sony. |
SONY's CD players (most of them) can sound bright. But there are not always bad things about SONY. Higher end SONY's transport actually last pretty long time in my experience. Therefore, I am confident in mod on a good SONY CD or DVD player. Because the transport is unlikely to die young!
Among my friends, I notice that SONY and PIONEER's high end DVD players usually have less problem of skipping marginal quality DVD or CD. This is a good sign for tracking and accurate reading of digital signals on disks. I have to agree that those mass production company invested enough to make sure these things work well.
Small company did lots of work on analog part, I think, that's why their output driver is usually better than mass production ones. There is not much room (money & technology) to develop a new digital processing format for a small company. DAC chips, everbody can buy better one when newer/better design come out, if you have $$.
For XA777ES, it is a quite warm sound player (unlike most of SONY). IMHO rega planar is not better this one (others can't comment, never compare them). Other good redbook players mentioned previously probably cost about the same as a high end SONY anyway. There is no excuse if they sound bad on their specialty: redbook. Eventually, small company will come out good SACD player if SACD do succeed. But you need big companies to drive DSP technology and market for their own profit and for serious audiophiles too.
Who else on this site once say "If you give up on SACD, then they will do MP3 for bigger market". Then later, you will hear some guys claim their MP3 player sounds better than mega $$ CD player. That would be a big mistake for audiophile.
From LP to CD, dynamic range is compressed, SACD pulled back to wider range to reach LP. If you go MP3, man!, we are going backward! |
Kayakfit... "redbook" cd refers to the standard cd that has been out for 20 years now. SACD (super audio compact disc) is Sony and Phillips attempt to hold on to the patent they have on digital recordings with cds that is expiring. DVD-A (digital versatile disc-audio) is Panasonic's (and the rest of the packs) attempt to knock them off the "hill" and take over the next digital format. In both cases, removing our ability to make copies of the discs is the overriding motive for the format change. Thats not to say the new formats are not better than redbook, but the question is which will win the format war and become the new standard. |
My point which NataLIE will never be able to understand is the sampling rate of redbook CD players is too low to reproduce music accurately. SACD by virtue of it's sampling rate is emanantly more capable of accurate musical reproduction. SACD still has improvements to make in the playback, but inspite of this it still is superior to the products NataLIE is talking about.
Lots of companies have spent millions of dollars trying to get redbook CD players to sound good but it is ultimately a waste of time. We would all be better off if more people got behind a medium more capable of giving us the sound quality that cheap LPs already provide. That being SACD.
NataLIE is not worth arguing with. He does not understand the technology or have the ears to listen anyway. He is against anything he does not understand, which is virtually everything taking place here. Follow his threads and see for yourself! |
And I will again disagree with you Nrchy about CD's being a "waste of time". |
I certainly can't argue intelligently with your unsubstantiated opinion. |
I am not looking to "argue" Nrchy. Why are my opinions unsubstantiated and yours not? I have been quite clear in my comments/opinions; I will state again, I have owned the Sony SCD-1 and it is a good player, but I find the EMC1-UP CD player that I am now using surpasses the performance of the SCD-1, SACD included. You stated that CD cannot sound good, I disagree, my point all along.
If you read my past comments, you will see that I do not argue to potential of SACD.
It would "appear" to me, that you feel your 777 playing SACD's will outperform any CD player, if this is a correct assumption of what you believe, I disagree. (Based on units I have owned.)
If you would like a reviewers opinion, read the following review and note that the player reviewed is not the latest upgraged version.
http://www.stereotimes.com/trans070302.shtm |
With all due respect Brian, since this review was released some 2-3 months ago, it seems to be the only saving grace for hard core redbookers. I've yet to see anyone site any other source for comparing redbook to any SACD player, much less the SCD-1. I do own an SCD-1, but have not compared it's sound to any of the elite redbook players. I have heard many of the 3000-4000(Cary, Rega, Arcam)players and can say that I feel it holds it's own against them playing cd's. Opinions vary and some don't like the Sony's presentation, but let's not forget this machine was built to showcase SACD. The players i've mentioned don't even come close to it's SACD performance in my opinion. The SCD-1 is nearly 4 years old and is still at the top of it's game, and all of a sudden 1 review states that redbook is better and it's taken as gospel by the redbook crowd. This is my first post and I'm not trolling. I just don't understand all this blind faith in 1 review, your opinion notwithstanding. Gary. |
Gary, I am not sure where you are coming from! I sometimes wonder if some read all things before posting. First of all, if you read the review, you will notice that the reviewers reference player is the SCD-1. Second, your allusions to the "redbook" crowd using this review as gospel is way off base. (I am ne poster, who are you including?) You will notice that I have several posts on this, endless, thread before I ever even mention this review, yet I have known of it the whole time. Gosh this is frustrating.
Let me make my stance even clearer, I have owned the SCD-1, I had the 508.24 for 4 years before that, for the third time I will say, I think the SCD-1 is a good player, but it did not hold a candle to the EMC1-UP. If you choose not to believe me, that is your right. But for those that may be following this thread or reading later and may be questioning which way to go, I give you my experience for you to consider, please read all my posts though.
I have nothing against SACD itself!!! (If I haven't made that clear yet!) Please read my very first post, it is the second on the list, I gave pro's and con's for each as well as my thoughts.
If I was a "hardcore redbooker", as you state, I would of never purchased the SCD-1 in the first place, so spare me the accusations. Comments such as, "blind faith in one review", touch a nerve, remember, I have owned your player myself.
It seems some accuse people of doing the very thing they are doing. |
This was not directed at you Brian, I'm sorry my post came off that way. Yes I know the SCD-1 was used in the review, you would have to live under a rock to not know. My post was regarding the thread and many threads I see here and Audio Asylum(digital drive) and others who site the same thing. I do respect your opinion on this subject, being that you have lived with the players in question. But I honestly do feel that anyone who thinks CD(Redbook) has more to offer than SACD, is just deluding themselves. Just my opinion. Gary. |
Gary, thank you for the clarification. To further some clarification, I do not disagree that the new formats can outperform CD. I had two points/positions within this thread:
One, CD can sound good, even excellent, contrary to a comment made that it can't.
Two, the lack of availability of software for the new formats, CD may give you most enjoyment yet at this time, and further, there are some awesome CD players out right now that, IMO, will exceed the performance of a majority of the SACD "players", don't confuse my comments of players vs. formats.
From my experience, I do not view the review in question as inaccurate.
Thanks for the follow up, I do not think we are that far apart. |
Brian, I have a tendency to sound more dogmatic than I probably am. It was not my intention to argue as much as perhaps discuss the differences in opinion. IMO redbook CD is a flawed medium which as been fantastically tweaked to sound much better than it originally sounded.
I do beleive SACD is a much better format and I thought that was what we were discussing. The potential for SACD is much better than CD, and I would hate to see the format disappear before it matures to reveal what might be developed. I am not denying that Sony is probably playing games with consumers to protect their patents, but I still like to think it's about the music.
Regardless I still prefer the sound of LPs which IMO is better than CD or SACD. |
"IMO redbook CD is a flawed medium which as been fantastically tweaked to sound much better than it originally sounded."
Wow, I don't even know how to respond to that; at any rate, enjoy the music, I am! |
yes, redbook CD is flawed. there's a general rule of thumb in audio engineering that you can't expect to accurately reproduce any frequency above one third of your sampling rate. for redbook that would be 14.7 kHz. sounds like a flaw? try digitizing pure sine waves at 44.1 kHz and see what starts happening above 15 kHz. it starts to look like crap, not like a sine wave. |
Carefully read the post.
Are other CD Players significantly bette at CD Playback.
No where is SACD mentioned.
Point being you will find significantly better CD player at half the amount of the SONY which is a Horrible CD player.
At this point stick to a CD player.
DVD A may just win this battle in the end. You can play DVD A in any DVD player. Cant do that with SACD. |
Just got the Lindemann. Great sacd and cd playback. |
Natalie,I understand you hate Sony and have an opinion regarding their players, but don't spread false information. No you cannot play the DVDA track on anything other than a DVDA player. You can play any of the lower resolution tracks(Dolby,DTS,etc.), but you cannot play DVDA on anything other than a DVDA player; period. The same holds true for SACD. SACD's(non-hybrid), can only be played on SACD players but hybrids can be played on any SACD player, CD player and DVD player(compatable with Redbook). That puts hybrid SACD's in ten times(at least) the number of players DVDA would be compatable with. Gary. |
Yes the DVD A track will only play in a DVD A player the other will play on anything. How many Dual layer SACD are availabe. Last trip to Bestbuy and all they had was single layer.
And to make maters worse SONY Canada is not supporting Dual layer Format. That tell me a whole lot about how Sony is commited to the format.
One other thought. Why do we not get Sony A+ gear in North America. Why do we get what the Asian market wont put up with in terms of Sonics. |
Maybe because "we" whine too much about the technology not being perfected instead of letting Sony release it and see what needs to be improved from an end-users perspective! Why would they stick a lot more money into a format that is regularly denigrated by people who know little or nothing about it??? |
They want market penetration and poor little me can't afford Accuphase prices. They want the public to find out about SACD and that can only happen if it's affordable. Less than 1% of audiophiles can pay $16,500 for Accuphase hi end, which may or may not be better than an SCD-1(opinions vary). So we can get Sony A quality and pay one fifth of A+. Remember, Sony wants the 99% group desperately, so SACD can succeed. Sony is starting to release more and more hybrids and their production will be up to 25 million disc per year capacity soon. And last time I checked, the Dolby and DTS 5.1 tracks still won't play on my computer, home, or car CD player. I'm not from Canada so I would'nt venture to comment on that situation. But I hope they do go the hybrid way, because it's the only option for success of the format in my opinion. By the way I do own a Toshiba SD9200 and it's one heck of a player. I feel that DVDA betters Redbook by some margin, but does'nt compare to my SCD-1. Gary. |
