Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better... " +++++
Only for your records: bigger means higher inductance that means higher distortion.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Stormen: Yes I only refer to oil and in my experience the sound is " oily ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Raul
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps. The Sonicaps clearly are NOT there and sound like a filter. I do like the Mundorf/Duelund more dynamic sound and do NOT consider that coloration.
I do agree that the Sonicaps are Nuetral by this I mean they do not favour the high or low freq. One could say that maybe the SIO has a upward tilt.
To Undertow
With the Mundorf size thing. Mundorf states that they are using basically 4x as much windings to get the same result of uf. To me I kept hearing from what I was reading Mundorf is boutique (kind of cap) meaning that it was wayyyy overpriced for what it was. I am just stating that Mundorf IS wayyyyyy more cap than standard and SHOULD cost more money. To me I can hear night and day when the Mundorf goes in (over Sonicap) a lifting of congestion. I think (but do not have facts) that the 4x the windings is able to store and release more electricity. When the Sonicap goes flat the Mundorf is still going. I think the Mundorf is WELL worth the money. It is Steen Duelund (who is an expert) not me who says the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) So that Mundorf wound 4 caps into 1 SHOULD be better in my mind.
All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better. No plastic seems better as well. |
I e-mailed Duelund about the connection to Jensen and copy/pasted some of their info into my reply. Now it suddenly looks at if, they made the whole reply?
Sorry for any confusion. |
Duelund Coherent Audio
to me
show details 2:16 PM (19 hours ago)
Reply
Volleyguy
I think the reason is that most air cores are made in the same way, quickly wound and done. However, the Duelunds are made in the same vein as their caps with a wet oil dielectricum which they are impregnated with under high pressure for several days. Supposedly this reduces unwant resonances in the inductor, which is very beneficial to the sound quality.
As I've said, I never use anything else, but the price difference is of course large compared to the Alpha Core.
The Duelunds are only made by Jensen insofar, that Duelund has access to the Jensen machinery (They are located in the same building) , otherwise they are as night and day especially soundwise, I own both types. The english Audio Notes are no longer made by Jensen, but I believe Kondo Audio Note (Japan) continues to use Jensen. Furthermore, they are no longer paper in oil, but use a plastic material (mylar). I firmly believe in the paper approach, but again each to his own, and Audio Note UK probably had their reasons. |
Halcro
Yes, I use a Duelund 10.37 uF for example. I also value highly that you can get the exact value you need in one cap, inductor or resistor. |
Rauliruegas,
That may be so, but neither the Duelund VSFs in question or the Mundorfs are paper in oils, so I don't understand why that is brought up. |
Sorry guys late and off to bed.
I will answer comments tomorrow.
All I was saying is the Mundorf is much bigger has much more dynamics than Sonicap and is well worth the money difference. (for this kind of application in my opinion)
from Mundorf
"Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF MCap-Supreme capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology"!
I wish I heard that from former Klipsch owners. I am no cap expert but have owned these speakers for 30 years so I do know what they sound like and can say a Sonicap is a for sure downgrade from original. (if I would have read that from a 30 year owner who has nothing to sell)
When I started this (I was and still am no cap expert or claim to be) I was told by so much I read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true. Yes there are better caps out today. (Duelund for sure) I'll I am saying is if Sonicap is the best bang for the buck cap one might start to think about spending more than you think.
I hope one reads this in the future and says to themselves Ok $3500 (for last pair of Khorns same year on ebay selling price) that it might cost them more than they think to bring the speakers back to spec.
A quote from Steen Duelund
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Steen likes caps "without plastics". (can't argue there) Older type caps. (can't argue there) Bigger is better. (can't argue there)
I am just saying I think the man is/was on to something and something BIG! (no plastic may be the key!)
Tony Gee said how his caps made things sound so real and super natural. |
Dear Volleyguy: With all my respect to you and for what you already posted ( caps's size, a higher price cap is better, parallel/series caps, no breacking time to the caps, caps combinations, inductors, taking the Tempo people like a reference, etc, etc )it is clear to me that you are a " Rockie " about caps inductors and speaker voicing.
What is a surprise to me is that with all that non-know how about suddenly you are an expert and give advise about to other Agoner's in many ways ( example ): +++++ This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before .... " +++++
IMHO in all what you are posted the only coherent statement is:
**** The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison *******
You really don't know those " flaws " because for what you already posted you don't have any reference but other caps that maybe are the ones that has the " flaws ".
Undertow posted: +++++ As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat *******
he say is a bit flat and you that it is neutral, well IMHO both characteristics are highly desirous in any cap reagrdless of price ( the price means nothing about the quality performance in a cap. ).
From my experiences and the other people experiences the Mundorf are not a neutral-flat cap ( either the Duelund in lower level ) it adds colorations/distortions ( like the ones that you are hearing: dynamics, a false dynamics I have to say ).
Why don't like you the neutral-flat Sonicaps? well because show you the whole quality limitations in your system that for what you report about is not of a very high quality performance ( between other things the Scala's are not up to the task. ).
Why many people does not like a flat response in their audio systems? why they like the colored ( heavy colored/distorted ) system performance? because with a neutral-flat system only the good audio items designs can give them a pleasure and enjoying music, poor or mediocre designs ( everywhere in the audio chain ) show immediatly its " cooper " and IMHO that's what is happening to you.
The Sonicaps IMHO are a lot better of what you are reporting and more " honest " than the Mundorf or Duelunds.
This is what Atmasphere posted about caps of the same type like the MUN/DUEL that I agree about:
+++++ Paper and oil is nice, but in nearly all of them there is a slightly shelved high frequency character (mind you- not a rolloff) that causes them to have an overly delicate character. Nice for a lot of things but annoying if you play the complete range of music on your system. " +++++
+++++ Certainly they are more detailed than paper and oils with considerably more neutrality. Paper and Oil caps can develop electrical leakage over time that can damage other parts- +++++
both statements comes from someone that really knows what is talking about.
It is clear for me that your whole system ( through the Scalas ) are in trouble about quality performance and the Mundorf-Duelunds not only hide it but make heavier.
Of course, like I posted in my first post, that you like a colored/distorted performance nothing wrong with that but please don't give advise that a colored/distorted cap is a better choice than a neutral one.
IMHO any cap must be designed to add nothing and to be dead neutral as the materials permit it ( nothing is perfect ) and not to design caps with a precise signature performance ( colorations added ) like the Mundorfs-Duelunds that are frequency/performance manipulated on purpose.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
To put the theory to rest, I just looked up and converted BOTH the sonicap size of 2 20 uF caps or a Single Mundorf 10 uF cap which is 2 20 uF caps in one body and guess what, Identical SIZE TO THE 'T' !!!
Sonicap Gen 1 20 uF 1.41" x 2.02" multiply x 2 = 1.41" x 4.04" long
Mundorf 10 uF supreme cap 1.42" x 4.2" long
So if Sonicap was to construct an identical cap as the mundorf as they already make, this should debunk the size theory... Sonicap does not construct DUAL caps in series in one housing, mundorf does, but they are identical in size with this config... Again I will not argue sonicaps are good, I can care less, but it has nothing to do with size... And if it does, essentially you should get nearly equal dynamics using DUAL sonicaps than for making up a single value, which in fact I accidentally heard due to a tube amp manufacture I have first hand experience has done, and it was excellent and VERY close to the performance replacing them with a single better brand cap of the same physical size.. which happend to be a mundorf with exactly double the capacitors built inside one unit etc.. |
Actually I know for a fact a sonicap does not sound as good as either of the 2 other caps here, so thats not the point, However it would be interesting to see taking the 2 smaller caps of smaller value, be it Sonicap or whoever and "BAttery" them together for example 2 sonicap 1 uF caps to equal a total of 2 uF, and I can tell you this, I have actually heard it, and it was in tube amps, this was as dynamic as a single mundorf which would have 2 (4uF) caps inside doing essentially the same job as the "Batteried" sonicaps... However still the mundorfs use higher grade materials, in the end will sound more liquid, less dry etc... With probably a little more organic bass and dynamic contrasts...
So in order to make all things equal if you wish to compare PHYSICAL size parameters in this case, you would Need 2 SONICAPS which will be DOUBLE the size you are now talking about and it would be VERY close in physical size to the mundorf which has DUAL capacitors in ONE single housing.. They are totally different caps, and totally different sizes, but not because of what you think or see. |
Well now we are getting silly, I agree CAP PHYSICAL size HAS ZERO to do with performance.. Reason a Mundorf may be more dynamic is it is in fact 2 caps in one, and run to be like almost a cancelling type device... And they are in series inside the cap housing which might be what adds to the slight Harmonic excess, and the slightly "Higher" efficiency that many claim to hear that cap has, which in turn enhances the dynamics..
The Duelunds are a different animal and layed out completly in a different geometry and probably the characteristics is similar to the same effect the mundorfs have on the sound.
As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat, not a ton of detailed information nor are they 3d or spacial masters by any means, however they are of a more conventional design than either the mundorf or duelund, and they are simply of different materials as well.. NOTHING EXOTIC is used in the Sonicap, the others are totally off the standard path of capacitor materials with much higher degree of quality type tolerance and approach..
But I totally agree Physical SIZE wars has nothing to do with it and is totally ridiculous... Zero correlation to do with what is going on here.. There are smaller caps that can sound as good, and also as bad, difference is the bigger caps have higher voltage ratings because then the dielectric is thicker and will not melt, this could be worse for some designs who knows?
And Dulunds are only so large due to the geometry, They are not nearly as thick as a round cap however. |
Merganser
Not one cap has changed one bit in dynamics in break in. (that I can hear)
Can you tell me the right way then? Please do not say the lousy dynamics will somehow change at some magical hour of break in.
So are you saying that the MUCH bigger same type a cap Mundorf which has much better dynamics right out of the box is not because it is a much bigger cap?
Why is it only Sonicap that is sooooo flat? Are they special compared to others with break in. I am half way to 100 hours and after the first 5 hours I can not tell the difference. Even then the Sonicaps have not become more dynamic. |
Ok, I can't take it anymore. This thing about cap size and it's relation to the sound is complete garbage. Rauliruegas
explained the reason for the size differences, but like a lot of good advice offered to you here, such as burn in time, you choose to ignore it.
There is a right way and a wrong way to go about what you are trying to accomplish, so far you're going about it the wrong way. |
Trying to assess the Sonicaps in the midrange and they are massively undersized! Wayyyyyy below the level of the vintage. I am using this to figure out how much Duelund/Supreme to get. I can not believe how flat they make the sound. The difference is even bigger than the tweeter caps made. The vintage caps in the tweeters showed their age more than midrange. So now it is all negative with the Sonicaps. (except their is a slight less drone)
JohnK I am wondering on your Fisher rebuild did you use good caps? If they used cheap caps like this I can see why it did not sound good!!!
I will be putting in the order tonight. Here goes guessing. |
The size of the mid caps
Vintage is (can type rounded edges)
95mm long x 52mm wide x 32mm high
Total mm3 158,080 (somewhat less for rounded corners)
Sonicap
14mm radius x 50mm long so
30,772 cubic mm
Supreme (from website as I do not have the caps)
10uf (supreme caps)
18mm radius x 106mm long
107,840 cubic mm
3.3uf cap
15mm raius x 56mm long
39,564 cubic mm
For a total of 147,404mm3
So a Supreme is roughly 5x as big as a Sonicap and likely slightly bigger than the different style vintage cap. (rounded corners taken off)
So is it a wonder that Supreme's sound more dynamic??? I know some say you can not use that but both Mundorf Supreme's and Sonicaps are similiar style and you pay for what you get.
To me they sound similiar but much more dynamic. (the Supreme's)
To people who read this in the future if you go to small on your caps you get this feeling the cap sounds like a filter. |
Undertow
I would have considered Audio Note if I had some reviews on them from others. Both Tempo and Tony Gee just had not reviewed them. They may be great. (built by Jensen as well like Duelund I believe)
I had to stick to a few brands for financial reasons.
One thing I did notice that was not much talk about was dynamics. When I put the Sonicap in the midrange again I had thoughts of is this all worth it. They tend to sound not defective but not exciting. Only AFTER I had bought the caps did I read stuff like from Steen that the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) Now I know why even caps that don't sound bad (like the Sonicap) if they were only two or three times bigger they would be more dynamic. Of course that would end the Sonicap cheap price/performance ratio.
This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before. It is not something that stands out and yells at you (like a bright cap) or a cap that tilts the sound one way or another. You will notice that the music is just not as interesting. The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison.
JohnK I know you think crazy money on caps is not proper spending but I do know the fastest way to kill a speaker is with cheap caps. JohnK if 50% of the speaker on the dividing network is too much what do you think is the proper balance? Of course I understand if you could get the cap that sounded best for $1 that would be the way to go. But I do not believe you can and more expensive caps are often bigger and have more reserves.
JohnK I am curious where you think is the proper point of spending in this case? Which caps and what kind of $? |
I am actually suprised from all your trials here you have not considered the Audio note caps? Copper versions are a bit cheaper than the Duelunds even.. Maybe a stack of those on your mids would do the trick, getting right in between the mundorf/duelund combo on top... I am curious about these myself... I have seen in a few cases they say Audio note is the superior cap to all, including the V-caps and Duelunds in various applications. |
Oh okay, well yes 2 in parallel the way you speak would be better explained as a Bypass stack, or "Batteried" together.. Parallel in the circuit is a different thing, and normally this is how the cap is with the woofer which you don't have anyway, and again could be a cheap cap in most cases with basically no huge difference.. Anyway thatÂ’s where I got confused with the terminology.. I can agree that a stack making up 13uF is fine, and yes has some advantage over a single cap simply for voltage rating going up, and or better conduction using dual input and output 18 gauge leads etcÂ… however in your case I really doubt you could justify it being better necessarily one way or the other, I would still look into maybe seeing if mundorf or duelund could save you money and get a custom value 13 uF single if you really want to push this. |
Yes I mean two caps in parallel to total 13uf yes stacked together. |
I just talked to Chris on the phone and he thought the Duelund should be bigger and bypassed with a smaller amound Mundorf. They really recomend using two caps to stop the Sonic signature. He of course could not comment on the Duelund/Supreme in this case.
Undertow you are right though getting the midrange is even more important. I am still thinking 3uf Duelund and 10uf Mundorf.
I think I might put in the Sonicap while I guess which is the best combo for mids. I have a 13uf sonicap already here.
Now no vintage caps left in circuit. |
Wait a minuet, we might be confusing Parallel! You mean parallel as in the Circuit parallel, meaning one end of the Cap is on the positive tap of the amp and one on the negative tap of the amp? Or Parallel meaning using DOUBLE caps stacked parallel to equal the final value needed, if so then yes higher grade caps to bypass could be better, or 2 of equal quality in parallel for the earlier example a 6.8 and a 6.2 making a 13 uF stack yes is using 2 caps in parallel but that is not the same as Parallel in the circuit diagram.. |
Oh well simply stating the application itself being in parallel will have less effect on the sound, so in a way we are agreeing.. But that does not mean the quality of cap is as critical, because basically it should have less effect on the final sound is the point.. Series are worse and thats because you are forced to use them in a position totally effecting the output, and why you found the duelunds to be better as they are probably just better having the burden of that location. |
Undertow I will post Chris's response from partsconnextion.
CAPs in parallel sound even better......they reduce the ESL and ESR of the
combo.
Sincerely,
Chris Johnson, President |
Not sure what that means parallel caps are better than in series? I think you mean parallel caps are not as critical and you can buy at much better prices than ones in series.. Series caps are very critical, parallel not really.. So you can save some cash just using one of decent sonic signature with the correct value on your mids if they are in parallel only..
I would still go ahead and run with the mundorf supremes since they are more than premium enough cap for your application, and you seem to be spending that kinda money anyway.. as for your tweeter your hearing the duelund because it is in direct path (series) of feeding that horn and does ultimatley in that application give you the signature of the sound. |
Did talk to partconnextion and they said parallel caps are better than series. Now just to pick (guess) at cost effective combo. |
I have e-mailed partsconnextion to find out about caps in parallel to see if that works?
Also on the Alpha core inductor. They are almost $70 which is not bad compared to $300 (I think) for Duelund. Mundorf does sell inductors but from another company. I never hear people talk about the brands as inductors making a difference just whether air core/iron core etc. |
I am just rebuilding to original specs and the "AA" network uses a 2.5mz inductor and 13uf (cap) on the midrange and 2 (2uf caps) on the tweeter. There is also one more small inductor as well. That's it there is no more parts than that.
(well the autoformer) |
Volleyguy,
Duelund will make up a capacitor to any value you require. Have to spoken to Frederik?
The value of spending big bucks on the Duelunds comes with having a minimum number of caps, inductors, resistors in the path of the signal.
I have my woofers wired directly to the speaker terminals (no caps or inductors), with 1 Duelund cap (40uF) before the Mid/Woofer and 1 Duelund cap (5.6uF) before the tweeter.
When you add further caps and/or inductors, the purity and value of the Duelunds are diminished. |
By the way see link below... This is the last outboard and full upgraded version of klipsch speakers I did for a friend of mine.. I have done K-horns, cornwalls, and reference series by outboard premium crossovers in the past, you will see that using all premium parts like this make your original crossovers look like matchbox cars! These were only 2 way klipsch by the way, so no midrange circuit which is even more complicated, costly, and sizeable.. You will see the horn board was separate of the woofer board, and then they were stacked on top of each other to save some space and built into an enclosure which still ended up about 8"X 10"X 6" and next to some pretty large TUbe amps sitting in one pic with them hooked up you can see the comparison, they get rather large.... Good luck, and those caps and inductors are the sizes you are using, same physical sizes...
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103108.aspx?PageIndex=1 |
First off if your woofer has no cap thats even better, secondly YES an inductor mainly on the woofer alone will make a great deal of difference, caps not so much... You will get better more solid response and you will swear your speaker goes up another 3 db from like 98 to 101 db if you put that inductor on the woofer.. I guess the mundorf inductor is fine, but was not aware they existed? The duelunds look killer, but man they gotta be a ridiculous amount of money, I would go alpha core the big ones... You don't have a mghz inductor by the way its 2.5 mH, which is Milli henry as the measurment... That is a pretty large and VERY heavy in weight inductor by the way.. On your woofers will open them up like niagra falls so your bass response will be pretty highly increased...
As for inductors on your mids and highs, yes new inductors like the 14 gauge alpha cores would be far superior to the iron core cheapy ones on them now from the 70's, however inductors are more or less going to be more accurate buying new ones, not necessarily night and day difference on the horns overall like the caps, its the reverse for woofers, it will be a night and day difference with better inductors on the woofers, but caps are less critical on the woofers as long as they are the accurate value for the most part, in your case even better you don't need them at all! As a matter of fact you might find your favorite overall upgrade to that speaker is the inductor on the woofer all together, your integration with the mid driver will be that much more lush and dynamic.
Again unless your building outboard crossovers which I highly suggest, you might have a problem fitting and mounting a 2 lb weight inductor inside... they are not that cheap either your gonna be about 60 to 70 bucks each for that value I believe in the Goertz alpha core copper ribbon 12 gauge. |
Undertow if I understand what you are saying the inductor made more difference than caps? to you? or is the vintage Klipsch inductor not that good?
I know it is iron core and some kind of wrapping. What is the quality of their inductor? |
Thanks Undertow
Yes I too think the midrange even more critical than tweeter. In the tweeter of course the caps are in series and the midrange would be in parallel.
I may go next to the inductor.
You find that to make that much difference? I was looking at an Alpha Core 12 guage you mentioned a Mundorf 12 guage or maybe a Duelund.
I am confused with the Supreme on the woofer? We have a 2.5mghz inductor and no cap on the woofer?
Are you saying a better inductor made the highs sound better and Alpha core was better than original? |
Volleyguy
You are looking for a tuff call on that one.. I have in klipsch horns used exactly a 6.8 and 6.2 stacked of the same brand and ended up with much better result than splitting them up with 2 different brands or using one of lets say 11 uF and 2 uF to get the same end value... If you are buying a duelund that large and costly, well yes you are going into a "Peace of mind" issue that can not be solved even if it does sound great.. Plus the midrange is going to be even more critical in my opinion over the tweeter.. however you have knocked down the edge of that speaker already with the mundorf/duelund combo.. I hate to say it, but money wise, and performance wise, I would not stick anything on your mid horn but a stack of the mundorf only, meaning a 6.2 and a 6.8 and you will probably hear no more than a 5% difference for way less money than a duelund combo... Leave it on the tweeter, but also you don't need either of these caps on your Woofer, it should be parallel and have much less effect, but if its cost effective and you can get a mundorf supreme as a direct size replacement on your woofer go for it, BUT you woofer will benefit 10 TIMES more with replacing just the inductor on it with a Alpha Core 12 gauge copper ribbon inductor.. The cap has way less effect in this case, but even a solen cap for 2 dollars can sound great with the big inductor feeding your woofer. |
I have went through all the combo's again and still come back to same pairing. Duelund/Supreme. I find it hard to understand how one Duelund makes things so great but the second does not improve things at all.
What Tempo has said to me rings so true is mixing caps. This NEVER dawned on me. I thought it only to be a cost thing.
The Duelund brings things to "life" and the Supreme makes it smooth full and musical.
Duelund/Duelund tilts the sound like SIO/Supreme.
The only thing I may change it the order.
Duelund/Supreme
maybe to
Supreme/SIO
Duelund/Duelund (unless break in calms things down) |
Thanks Undertow
Where I am having a tough time is dividing up the 13uf for the midrange neither Mundorf of Duelund makes a 13uf so it has to be divided. Duelund does make a 3uf and both make a 10uf. I feel Duelund is the sound I like but Supreme does very little to mess it up and is very inexpensive. This is a tough one. Thought about 3uf Duelund and 10uf Supreme but is that enough Duelund. Any other combo does not work out to 13 uf. Duelund does make both but again this is costly! I have thought about 6.8 Duelund and 6.0 Mundorf. I do not know how I can change this cheaply??? if wrong? |
Volleyguy
Actually I was again not defending them, just sharing an interesting tid bit I was given on sonicaps... Believe me, I don't use them in the end either so that was not really my point.. Plus to be honest, sonicaps don't mix well with other caps, use all sonicaps seems the only way to make them perform their best, also sonicap platinums are really good as like a small bypass cap, so they can mix. |
Undertow I am not saying Sonicap is bad at all! This is some stiff competition! Duelund is argueably the best on the planet and Mundorf Supreme is used in B&W top speaker (and the top audiophile cap for volume) and Mundorf Silver in Oil is on everyone's favourite list. Even the vintage are oil filled caps and are part of the reason we see oil caps coming back today! There are a lot of people who search out (and pay big bucks for vintage oil caps) and even Steen Duelund is a fan of some vintage caps. |
JohnK I do think Steen thinks a speaker should be designed as a whole as well. I do think by his writing's that he feels most speaker manufacture's are "under" spending on caps and over spending on finish so that it "looks" better. Steen is clearly on the audiophile side and likely could care less what the speaker looks like. (I also know most manufactures af course care about looks-sales)
Johnk my results of course are based on a fairly expensive speaker. The internals of a lascala and Khorn are of course the same and the Khorn from the era was 4k (in 1980 dollars) So I feel (and can hear) using a $7 cap (likely $2 in 1980 dollars) is crazy on the cheap side one a 4k speaker! Now I do agree maybe the second Duelund sounds better but it was not a shocking difference the first was, so maybe I am reaching the point of putting more in is dimishing return and money could be better spent elsewhere. But the first Duelund in the tweeter was a bigger jump than from my pre-amp that was 1.5k to 4k. (same company) I had to do that one 6 or 7x before I could hear exactly what the difference was. The Duelund was pick my jaw up from the floor in 15 seconds. (and one Duelund was only $130x 2 for each speaker)
JohnK I do agree with you just maybe at a different point as to what is crazy. Would Duelund's 4k caps each be worth it??? No way not to me! I could improve a lot of stuff a long ways before I would ever spend that kind of money. (even if I had it)
I think why Stormen and I feel the improvement in the crossover may be better than any other area is because it might be the weakest area. Let's say someone has a 5k source 5k pre-amp 5k amp then it all runs through a $7 cap! To me that is crazy as ALL the sound goes through those devices! They are then the weak link. The trick is finding where that balance point is? I found "shocking" improvements all the way to 1 Duelund/Supreme after that it was like the pre-amp. It would take me a few listens to tell if it is better and how much. |
Volleyguy
I am going to tell you this as I spoke once to the designer of sonicaps.. He literally states that the first 50 hours on a sonicap is okay, but at 50 hours is MUCH MUCH WORSE!!! Almost unlistenable in some applications. Then goes on to say they will be on the upswing again and probably start to get where they need be at 250 hours...
That being said I have had some with 300 plus on them, they are not a bad cap at all.. Not perfect but not bad, and yes were rather flat at times without really good dynamic contrasts... But I am not defending this, Just funny as about 2 years ago I was told this from the horses mouth so to speak..The designers exact statements were at 50 hours they turn for the worst unlike most caps. Why? How? Who knows... I can say the do get a bit sweeter and more separated over time.. Again we are talking about an average of 10 to 15 bucks a cap so don't expect the fullest mundorf experience..
I can say the sonicaps are better than any of this (Kimbercrap) or (Auricrap) caps that use to be about 3 bucks a capacitor and in the last 4 years gone up to 16 bucks a cap due to some popular manufacturers using them! They really suck, and maybe some applications are quite good, but I have not had that experience.
Oh and again burning in any of these caps in speakers will never really approach the level they get with using them in powered electronics from what I have found. |
There are a few credible builders who have observed that when all things are equal(same cap type and capacitance value)a large/higher-voltage version sounded better than a small/low-voltage version. However, when comparing different types of caps, size would seem to be of little importance. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I did some measurements for some ..." +++++
the size is not the critical subject on quality performance and here you can't compare not only because its designs are totally different but ( for example ) the Mundorf are rated at 1200VDC against 200VDC on Sonicaps, if the Sonicaps were designed on 1200VDC its size will be bigger but like I say it is not important.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric. " +++++
Not exactly because the Tempo people speaks on Sonicaps on Electronics and the person on the link I posted rated on speaker croosover. Two very different applications with different " needs ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
I agree loudspeakers are the most important part of the system. As far as 50% cash for crossover 50% rest is just crazy. If I followed this 50% rule my loudspeakers would be the worse off for it. A crossover can not make a poor transducer into a great 1. Cabinet transducers and crossovers must all be designed to be a whole. Using crazy costly parts in crossovers is not the best way. Your getting the sound you want but your results are not of as of much use to others as you think. Steens wrong about loudspeaker design sure I use mostly 1st order gental slopes but I have use for stepper cut offs just depends on designs end goal no one way to build a loudspeaker. Sure its harder to design multiway loudspeakers but 3-4 -5 ways can be needed depending on design goals. I also disagree with the horn quote[With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding] I have designed constructed full range single driver loudspeakers also full range horn systems these loudspeakers are definatly relaxing to listen too. Well maybe the cap manufacters just dont want you to buy or DIY a loudspeaker without crossovers. |
Thanks Stormen I will check that out as well.
The last one I could only understand his writing the math I do not have a clue!
I did find interesting his 50% of the system speakers because he thinks they are the weak link and within the speaker 50% in the dividing network. So if one had a 10k system (which is not hard today at all!) a full $2500 should be in the speaker crossover!
To me that sounds like a lot of dough in the crossover. I bet most are nowhere near that. But like Steen says people like shining cabinets with fantastic finish on them. You don't see crossovers you only hear them.
I had a buddy just e-mail today who had his phono stage sent back to Germany to install Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil and you would think he had gone to heaven! He had Supreme's. So caps are huge.
JohnK and I are in complete agreement about not going overboard in one area of a system. What we are off a little on is how much you have to spend to do it. I only started out to be as good as (worn out) OEM or better and that Duelund/Supreme is the point where I am not missing the old caps in anyway. |
Volleyguy
"Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)"
He was quite an enigmatic character on the Danish diy scene.
You'll find some more info here:
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/files/duelund/duelund.html
www.steenduelund.dk
|
I forgot to put volume size of the vintage caps and Duelund
Vintage is
53mm length 32 width 50mm high (at least 40mm before rounding)
for a total volume of 84,800mm (somewhat less as cans are rounded)
They are between 64,000cubic mm and 84,800 cubic mm say 75,000. (app)
The Duelund's are
90mm long 45mm wide 9mm high
36,450 cubic mm. |
JohnK
I would have agreed on the tweeters until the Duelund's went in.
Bob Crites says he has tested thousands of caps this age and all were out of spec. I have not tested mine but did hear them go bad a couple of years ago.
I am not focusing on one aspect just trying to bring it back to at least OEM. According to Steen Duleund 50% of the cost of the speaker should be in the dividing network. Well Khorns cost almost $4k in 1980. So in theory $2k of the retail should be in the crossover network. (1980 dollars)
I can assure you John that fronting even a vintage Klipsch tweeter with 2 $7 caps is crazy! Fronting the speakers with two $30 is much better and a $30 Mundorf and a $140 Duelund is a even bigger jump.
I am treating the system as a system that is why I made sure the new caps had to be at least as good as old ones. I am not trying to create a weak link with cheap caps. |
Dear Raul
I am not buying any more Sonicaps. I do just listen to one speaker so adjusting the volume is not a problem.
I am at about 40-45 hours on the Sonicaps and my opinion is now much lower on them. I find that in Audio you notice the going down even much more than the going up.
I just put them back in to make sure I was not being to critical.
I do want to sell the Sonicaps would you like them? Half of the ones I have are brand new.
I will likely not hit the hours on the Sonicap needed to be fully broke in. They are wayyyyy out of the league of the other caps. (and the originals) |
Dear Volleyguy: Now that you are trying and give it time to the Sonicaps it will be good that you listen to the Sonicaps at a little higher volume ( due to its lower distortion ) maybe 2-3db higher than the Mundorf/Duelund and see what you hear.
Due to its low price it would be not a bad idea to buy the Sonicaps for the midrange too.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
