Mundorf Supreme's are being ordered for testing and one of the guys from the site is going to send some Russian Teflon's.
We are going to see if a stable good cap like a Mundorf Supreme what the effect is when bypassed with Teflon.
I am going to put the Mundorf's back in to test on the SS.
I would NOT spend the money on Duelund with SS unless things change when the mid caps are replaced. All the fantastic improvements are NOT being realized with SS. Yes it sounds better than vintage but nothing like the Duelund's sound like with the tube amp.
On a side note my tubes on the Fisher x100d are the same Russian Electro Harmonix tubes that Stereophile said were "fantastic" in the Fisher 500c. (which is the same as mine without tuner) I sure can not argue with that statement. They just came with the tube amp.
I had to go out to the hardware store as the tube amp takes spades for connection and the SS takes banana's.
No way I can listed to this for long! |
Dgarretson
Could it be those hand made (wad of gum) capacitors? Clearly someone wound them up by hand! I did notice that everything (on caps) was +-10% which is sloppy by todays standards. If it was the output transformers over decades why then do so many people talk about loss of sound quality after caps or resistors changed? Do you know anything about the new Duelund resistors are they just the old design basically brought back again?
When one looks at a vintage tube amp with hand made capacitors point to point wiring and to be honest a heck of a lot of work it is easy to see why manufactures don't do that anymore unless of course you spend a lot today.
What would a tube amp cost today using Duelund level of parts quality for resistors and caps etc? I bet mindboggling! |
The capacitor that has been replaced runs from the output tubes. So I assume (no doubt) this is one that makes a great deal of difference to sound?
Another question have wondered. Some guys say tubes sound slow and lack bass defintiton. The SS gear does sound faster but unnaturally faster. Is the SS gear better at driving through the poor quality caps? The super natural Duelund highs on the vintage tube gear is not near so good on SS and not worth the $ if you have SS gear in my mind.
A Day in the Life on SS.
Ringo's drumming nowhere near as real sounding. On the vintage tube the song is about Ringo drumming and the orchestra back behind which is brought forward at the end of the song. The SS gear captures none of this. Also at one point on the tube gear John seems to float again this does not happen on the SS gear as the sound stage is flat from front to back also mechanical and lifeless.
I am ordering Mundorf Supreme for midrange today (even though likely to go to Duelund) I need to hear the difference. (even if have to lose money on them) |
Some theorize that the great sound of some vintages gears may owe to continuing break-in of output transformers over many decades. |
Need Help Please tube guys.
I installed the Linn SS amps back in. The vintagee amp clobbers the SS stuff. SS sounds mechanical! I am new to this tube gear and have heard modern tube gear and was not all that impressed. The vintage one blows me away!
So I took apart the vintage tube Fisher x100d (same as a 500c I think without the tuner)
When taking apart the vintage I found only ONE modern capacitor and nothing else changed.
Most capacitors look like a gumball. What is that? Paper in Oil?
I have heard even changing the resitors to modern stuff kills the sound of these vintage pieces.
I used a mirror to see what the modern cap is but can not tell.
Very excited to find the Fisher is realitively unmolested.
Is it the key no plastic? Why does the old stuff sound sooooo good? My very expensive new stuff sounds 2D flat and lifeless by comparison. |
Vintage caps and SS on the one speaker is the thing of nightmares!
Even the other speaker with the Duelund tweeter caps is not as good as with the tube but unsure if it is caused by SS or bad midrange cap?
The difference is even more distinct than with tube gear, much more distinct! |
Put SS back on to eval with it as well. |
My feeling exactly on the crossover parts. (fewer the better)
I am not taking on the Linn speakers. What is worse is they have a shelf life then. You either buy there crossover circuit board staying at spec or they are most like obsolete. (if they sell them) So the best you can hope for is factory spec no improvement or a ton of money on custom built out of high quality parts. Which is not cost effective.
As far as Klipsch using cheap parts in there new speakers have they done anything since PWK sold the company? |
I agree the less passive components the better, and also the less parts, the more expensive ones can take over the spot and have better effect. Your linns have some very large values, and too many components for sure, especially in 3 way speakers the midrange circuits get complex and costly for the most part. I would not take on a design like that unless your made of time, money, and space to really maximize your passive crossover upgrade. |
Realistic priced for the Khorns? Dirt cheap might be another word. For sure for the vintage ones.
I think B&W's top speaker is 70k. I think Linn's is around 50k but that comes with amplification built in and no crossovers.
The reason I was told by the Linn dealer on the importantance of the passive speaker crossover is the crossover is powered by the signal. So it does only make sense that it would be of extreme importantance and like you said shows up again and again.
I have heard the Klipsch guys say A or AA are the best networks. Are they the best because they are the simplest therefore have the least amount of components so suck up the least energy? |
I believe the guy you speak of is on this site, and on another thread saw the new pricing of 20 k vs. 15 k originally projected for the palladiums and said thats way to much now and I assume maybe went back to the more realistic priced speaker.. I could be wrong, might be a different guy I don't know. |
Klipsch used to be a high end company though Undertow. 30 years ago a set of Khorns was almost 4k. Klipch went down market since then.
Which is another question I have can a corporation advance audio? It seems like to me whenever a corporation takes over a audio company they ALWAYS lower costs. I think pride goes out the window. It seems in audio the pioneers are always guys like Steen who want better sound and don't care so much about money. They are obsessed about sound but not so much about money. Corporations by there nature want to cut costs.
Undertow I was looking at a set of Khorns from a guy who was buying the Palladium's and I see he is back looking for Khorns? |
Yes the crossover is excessively weak for a 20 k speaker was my point... Klipsch making anything in that range might be way out of their element in my opinion :-) |
Undertow a little confused?
The new Klipsch Palladium series if the crossover is so weak what about the rest of the components? What exactly do you mean WAY out of there element? |
I don't know about Linn speakers.. I honestly just put forward an example of a 1 k pairÂ… Yeah sure I could see the linns if they are that good with better parts being on par with something in the 10 k range, why not? ThatÂ’s all it takes, I mean speakers in my opinion from the range of somewhere in 1 or 2 k a pair up to 25,000 all have good drivers, anything in between is mostly effected with results from better cabinets and damping, and the crossover network or lack of network, so for sure the better a passive network, or NO passive network and running a full range driver, or Active crossover system as you are looking at should in fact be better. What amazes me about klipsch which I mentioned on another thread here is their new Palladium series.. For 20,000 dollars are WAY out of their element, and they use Bennic crossovers, I have seen the pictures of them, that speaker would destroy with a better network for sure, again it has to fit in the cabinet, and of course klipsch will only put in about 50 bucks a crossover not 500 because their profit is very high then. |
Thanks Undertow
You are right and I am not that hard core. Linn also does Aktiv and used Aktiv is likely cheaper and for sure more resaleable.
I have moved the CD player back in to the Linn system and can now understand why some were so excited about Sonicaps. They are better than Bennic in my mind. I hear Bennic (that linn uses) is about the same as Solen's which are 6.5 (according to Tony)
The Sonicaps are 8.5 so that would seem like a jump up it that is what you had before. Coincidently the Sonicaps are again much bigger than Bennic.
Undertow every time worth it? Good to know. I could fit the crossover in and the speakers were a lot more than $1k new about $4k+ but that would be the used value. Does it take them into $10 to $15k new value with a $1k in parts?
I am starting to demo Klipsch now on vinyl with the SS to hear if the difference is the same with SS or just tubes. |
Volleyguy
Yep.. A full on no holds barred crossover will cost more than the raw price of some speakers.. But everytime I have done it, was worth more than speakers costing 3 times more, just do the crossover and your 1000 dollar pair will be easily in competition with a 5000 dollar pair from my experience. Also one thing you did not mention, not only the parts cost and building is a pain to be professional about it, but they will not fit with these kinda parts in any speaker really, you then need to do external crossovers, redoing much wiring, and other issues to get the bi-wire or tri-wire setup to the outboard crossovers.. So this method is only for the hardcore, if you get involved be prepared! |
Mundorf electrolyics
2x around $30 each speaker
1x Mundorf Supreme 8uf $60 each speaker
3 inductors Alpha Core app $150 each speaker
Misc caps and extra parts easy $300
You could easy spend $1k on decent crossover. Plus paying someone to do it and not being able to recoup the cost of crossover as no one would pay you anything for it. (not being made by Linn)
I have been doing sound test on mostly around 5 CD's. Took the same source up to Linn speakers. (linn Karik) (same Cd's) It is hopeless on those speakers.
This has been a learning experience for me. I will be de-tuning the livingroom system to just a Linn Classik all in one stereo as I do not think the speakers justify anything more. That would be better balance. It will become my wife's stereo for background music. Or just getting rid of them. |
Oh forgot to mention the Jensen Oil Copper caps.. Reason is they are not worth mentioning... That should tell you enough, very fuzzy, very boring. I know they make the dulunds, but obviously a totally different design. |
Clarity cap MRÂ… Well itÂ’s the best cap made period, for the price none will come close.. A Vcap with 400 hours on it will probably sound 95% similar.. out of the box these bad boys are all there! Unreal soundstage, earth cracking huge, vast, tight and clear bassÂ… Vocals are full and dynamic without a hint of glare. Highs are silk, better than the oil caps in my opinion even, how did they do it? I have no clue, some caps are best in certain locations or frequency ranges, this is the best Full range wide open cap I have heard.. I was very worried that they would need some substantial burn in to clear up, or have lower glare and distortion, they don't need anything.. They are what I consider for the price of about 60 bucks a 1 uF cap, perfect. My previous caps in my tube amps and preamps before.. Yes they were all in the same equipment and changed out over the yearsÂ…Warning the MR clarity caps are HUGE and HEAVY
1- my equipment came with Auricaps "So so"
2- Cardas caps, very nice, a little rolled off, but as good as any teflon caps
3- Mundorf Silver oils, excellent with highs and mids, bass was a bit too soft
4- Sonicap platinums, might be slightly better than the cardas, definitely better bass than the mundorfs, also a really good bypass cap. Take forever to burn in however..
5- Dynamicap (TRT Wondercaps) A little too emphasized and zippy, but if you need to pep up some tubes these can help.. These were not bad on their own, and pretty good in speaker applications, but benifited very good from sonicap bypasses above.. I have used these in both electronics and speakers as with all the above caps.
6- Jantzen superior, best cost to sonic ratio also with best voltage handling to most of the above, for the price these kill the cardas type caps which are not cheap, and are similar but better, they don't take much to burn in, they are a tiny bit fuzzy compared to some of the teflons, but still very natural, distortion is bettered with a good teflon bypass cap making these a bit more "Solid" sounding.. They have the best bass out of the above caps as well as very extended highs.
7- Finally the Clarity CAp MRÂ… For the price, build quality, and incredible sonic response, these are not beat.. Zero need to mix with some other cap to try and re-balance something, absolutely the best out of the box caps as well.. And they play nice with others, ZERO compression in the sound, Best darkest background and just depth, no doubt this is a worldclass cap, I can believe these for the money will probably beat out the V-cap types without question and are available in way bigger values than the v-capsÂ… I would look no further than these if you want all of what these exotic caps claim like the Mundorf Gold Oils, and the v-caps, even the duelunds. These will work out the kinks in even the most critical applications I truly believe and thatÂ’s not just because I am now using them.
I have not heard the caps in a speaker like all the others above, however I can say I doubt they will not perform to the highest in that application as I have them running full range single caps right now handling virtually the entire signal feeding all my other caps in the system which are 100% Jantzen superiors, I dumped all the others. I am going to back them with a Duelund VSF in a crossover, this will be a world class mix..
My opinion, best cheap but not too cheap caps are the Jantzen superiors for sure, no contest even with the caps 4 and 5 times the price in the ones I have experienced, the MR's are that final just put it on cruise control level however, they do nothing but perfect.. Who knows once they burn in, but this is the first ones I have heard that I don't even care!!! Much like how some believe the duelunds off the bat are just better from the instant satisfaction. And Zero regrets on the money spent vs. some of the above which get questionable. |
I took the Linn speakers apart and it is a crazy idea as the speakers crossovers are a circuit board. There is a 8uf Bennic and at least two other bigger caps 50mfd's and one unmarked cap. There is three inductors plus other parts I do not even know what they are. Much more complicated than the simple Klipsch "AA" so therefore more costly to redo. Linn claims just to skip the passive crossover and go aktiv is more cost effective. It seems to me Linn must not think one is going to stay passive for long as the 8uf Bennic is about $3 (if you order 10 or more which no doubt they are) Well built speakers and lots of insulation just not spending to much on the crossover parts.
The Linn Bennic 8uf cap is about the size of the 2uf Sonicap and is thought to be even a cheaper sounding cap. It is a tiny fraction of the size of the 2.2 Mundorf Supreme. I know some guys do not think cap size matters.
The 50mfd Bennic'a look to be worth a buck and half each. It would cost a fair $ to build out of Mundorf Supreme quality of parts though not being cost effective compared to used Aktiv and amps.
Scatch that idea. |
I have asked on the Linn thread about capacitors replacement. No response. Almost if it was a crazy idea. In Linn world Aktiv is taken as a given. I know it works well but what about just staying passive in the case of just being better without the massive expense?
Linn claims that the passive network can absorb 50% of the power! (at moderate/high volumes)
I think that can put to rest the importance of the crossover.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:VC4GJNTO8-8J:www.tonbildspinnerei.ch/pdfs/Aktiv_Explanation.pdf+taking+out+Linn%27s+passive+crossover&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3 |
Tearing apart the Linn speakers tomorrow. Looking at a less expensive redo there as well.
I have this theory that maybe a cheap Linn all in one player may sound better than much more expensive source and pre and amp with better crossover parts.
This goes right against what Linn has said for so long. I have really been questioning this (in my mind) overspending on source to run through crap crossover parts.
In my case a Linn Karik (with the Numerik) Kairn/Klout pushed 15k new. (with a Tuner) A Linn Classik was $1500. What if changing the speaker caps which Linn uses that are dirt cheap even retail to better crossover parts made the cheap Classik sound better than the much more expensive seperates? My wife would rather have just one piece of gear in the livingroom anyway in the second system.
It has been bugging me. I have taken Linn at there word and even if one did not get that brand I believed the formula of source first. Now I am really starting to wonder? A fully loaded new Lp12 is 15k plus! Then they run that through $2 capacitors! The Linn parts are much cheaper than Sonicaps. Not that price always means better but usually really cheap is just that. |
Russian caps are available in various lot sizes. FT-3 teflon, FT-1 teflon(compact 200V version), and K40Y9 PIO are all worth a look as coupling caps, and as filtering or bypass caps in PS. Space permitting they can be stacked in parallel to achieve larger values. |
I have been looking into doing the caps in the Linn speakers as well. Not sure I want to spend Duelund money again so soon but maybe Duelund Aluminum VSF for tweeter. I took the base off the Linn speaker on Saturday and they kind of seal the bottom screws. So I going to have to check with the Linn dealer on what to do? Do not want to hurt resell value. They are around 10 years old anyway or more. |
Been gone of couple of days.
Dgarretson I may take you up on this. I could order a Mundorf Supreme 10uf for the midrange, to go with the 2.2 I have. I need to total 13uf (or close) I am waiting on Duelund. The Russian Teflon is interesting. Did you buy one of those boxes? |
Even in 1980 they were realizing possibly the biggest advancement in upgrades of this audio technology was not the exact topologies but the capacitors it seems.. I have heard myself bigger sound differences using the same component with different caps over buying other totally different audio in many cases.. Interesting article below, check out the date!
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm |
Dgarretson
Sorry I see what your saying.. I missed the whole russian 5 dollar thing.. yeah worth a shot |
It's very easy to play with russian teflon, as FT-3 is <$5. Low price does not reflect upon the quality of these products of the old Soviet military industrial economy. However they are large in size (.1uf/600V is 1" x 2"). Volleyguy, if you'd like to try some & report results I'll send you a pair. They do require ample break-in. |
I have bypassed mundorf silver / oils with .1 sonicap platinum's and yes it does add a little more clarity, Zip or speed, and more solid bass. If cheap enough its worth a shot, but then again I think just using one single better cap if possible might be the way to go, due to add up the cost of an exotic teflon and then the big body type of a mundorf and it might cost as much or in some cases more than just using a cap that will do it pretty close on its own, if its in a small size that is.. For example a 1 uF cap is not too large in value, and a better one vs. bypassing would prrobably be better, but if you got an application of like 2uF or 5 uF I can see the advantage in trying a nice .1 uF to bypass it especially in the cost differences. |
It could be interesting to try some small-value teflon caps bypassing the caps you've tried-- particularly the Mundorf SIO. Mil-spec surplus NOS Russian FT-3 teflon can be had in .1uf-.22uf values on the cheap from Eastern Euro sources on Ebay. I've had good luck with these in electronics, but never tried them in speakers. I wouldn't pay attention to the published reviews of the russian teflons, unless they make it clear than they tested the superior FT-3 version. |
Thanks Undertow
I wish Tempo eval'ed Clarity as well. As it is nice to have two opinions. I found the Supreme's much better than Sonicaps and Tony did not rate them much higher? All of our ears are slightly different. I found the dynamics alone worth the price for the Supreme's.
But Tony does not talk about that? (except in the congestion as how one cap is less or more congested) |
Thanks Undertow
Next week I will be ordering inductors as well.
The CAST by Duelund I can not say for sure if dimishing returns as I did not find the VSF's to be dimishing returns but large returns. I used to think I could never listen to digital unless I spent some crazy amount of money and even still did not know what it meant. I must say this is the first time I have enjoyed listening to digital. So for the price of caps I can enter the digital age and not have to listen to just vinyl.
I still have not heard the turntable on the Duelund's. I am waiting for the mid caps to be here to do that. So to me the caps are worth it. In some ways I am afraid to hook up the table, I love/hate when you get a new reference! I used to like my other speakers before the Duelund's. Now I cannot even listen to them, really that is kind of a bummer. |
Clarity cap prices here...
http://madisound.com/manufacturers/claritycap/mr.php |
I realize not really anybody can comment on duelund in electronics.. I have no need for the Cast design as I have a feeling its just gonna be another level of diminishing returns especially in a 10 dollar horn... But worth it if you really want the best without replacing a speaker.
As for low frequency, Yes the 12 gauge copper ribbons from alpha core goertz are 10 times better, the power, low frequency response, balance and efficiency all seem increase substantially in all of the klipsch speakers I have upgraded in the past, ONE thing is to make sure however you can get the EXACT replacement value is purchased to replace the original, not one off the shelf that is just close.. I believe Goertz is in connecticut still and you can call they will sell you a pair of the exact value inductors you need.
However for the Horns I found that the Alpha core 14 gauge did not really mark a large improvement, you just don't need the energy for a parallel inductor in the horn circuit, I found a better sounding and easier to install inductor for the horn was a 14 gauge 800 watt Erse inductor, its an air core, not ribbon, which you can buy oversized and have a company wind it down for you to the correct value smaller, the ribbon inductors you can not wind down to a lower value, the erse also handles 150 watts more than the ALpha core, however of course 14 gauge and 800 watts is not even close to necessary for your 100 db horn, but I like overkill and good quality so I will only go down so far :-)
The erse inductors are about the same price as Alpha core of the equal gauge and value for your horn. But I still love the Ribbon 12 gauge copper on the woofers the best. |
Undertow where do you find Clarity cap prices?
Thanks |
I will update on the Silver in Oil. The last time I had it in I was not noticing the the upward tilt so much as it did seem as hours seem to be smoothing it out somewhat. I will try it again with Duelund and Supreme again.
I need to know this for myself as my other speakers sound lousy since the new caps went in. (so may do them as well)
In a seperate question I had thought of two systems but now think it crazy as the better one just reveals the faults of the poorer one and mostly just sits there. (srreaming for more money!) Anyone else find that? |
Undertow
I can not comment on Duelund in electronics. I have only being rebuilding the low voltage speaker crossovers.
I agree on the obsene prices. I can not wait till you give your impression of the Duelund for the high freq.
That is why I had originally ordered one Duelund for the mid range as to see the effects were as big as the high freq. (worth the $)
On the low freq did you find the Alpha core to be a big step up from the original inductor? I also would expect less difference in the lows as error is not a critical.
I am still waiting and looking forward to eval'ing Duelund CAST for tweeters after being so impressed with VSF.
|
Volley no offense but I believe both of those comments you cut are very just well "universal", they basically said well we decided to see if different shapes and materials were simply different shapes and materials not necessarily contributing to sound but contributing to the type of design necessary to use these materials they chose, I don't see that they were trying to discredit or say anything was wrong with other designs..I mean come on you don't see everybody including duelund trying to give a little extra fluff to their design marketing? I mean they virtually discredit the entire industry if you look at their point of view too!
IN FACT go look at the Clarity Cap DTAC its totally out of control ! It does not look like a cap at all, it looks like Duelunds inductors! So They are not trying to say the types of designs were not executed well by many, but simply that it could be executed obviously in a more traditional way as well vs. forcing a square peg into a round hole.. in a capacitor configuration. Don't think they discredit anyone, and they even state they worked closely with many of the cap manufactures on what they were trying to accomplish. There is definitely snake oil in some of the designs..
By the way I was not totally blown away by Clarity cap SA series, they were nice, and did nothing wrong, also HUGE, and believe it or not better built than even the mundorfs on many levels and much cheaper, but they were just nothing too exciting.. I would not have suggested the claritys if I did not see this was not even of their own family in design, I found the clarity caps however the best of cheaper caps minus the jantzens, and thats their lower lines, I expect pretty good things from the MR so I will not B.S. anybody about them, I have no gain from that, but they just make sense over spending 200 for V-cap or something that seems to probably be no better. here is the link to the DTAC. The DTAC was their previous top of the line till the MR came along as well.. Tell me Clarity cap is only trying to push conventional cylinder type designs now :-)
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/ |
Undertow
I did not mean anything bad against Clarity Cap. I see from Tony Gee they are rated very highly. I would have had them in my test if they were available from same supplier.
I just did not like a couple of Clarity's comment's. Like this one.
"The new MR range harnesses all of the knowledge gathered throughout the research programme and we believes offers the market a superior product based upon science and research rather than
snake oil".
I am not sure who they are trying to discredit the Teflon's or Duelund?
Another quote
"Specifically, we wanted to understand the
underlying technology of our capacitors, without looking at exotic materials and strange assemblies".
Again who are they trying to discredit?
I just did not like those comments but do look forward to what you think of them! I also am a little touchy when the industry seems to protect the current ways of doing things. I remember getting back into vinyl after being barraged when digital came in about no tics and pops like all would be great. I am also a little ticked at finding out how good vintage tubes sound after my dealer kind of told me tube people were also a little odd?
I do also want to hear more than just tweeter caps and can't wait till they are here. I do also realise Duelund is very expensive! |
Volley
Oh and sorry what I mean by the odd shape of the duelund above is installing it is a task in my case for this electronic device, and may not fit as professionally as I would like. The MR is super huge too but with the round shape can probably make it work with some standoff from the board or something. Also I highly suggest reading that MR white paper again, it will sink in more and somethings I missed on the first run thru, also watch the video a second time, and you might be swayed that for the price they should be right there if not better in some applications than the top mundorfs or duelunds. |
Volleyguy
The MR Clarity cap is not a mass produced cap like their others it is a brand new line, and from the Humble hifi site with the tests the one just below the new clarity MR is the DTAC which was tested and pretty much ranked the same as the mundorf.. The Clarity cap MR is more expensive, not quite as expensive as the Silver gold oil..
My concerns with Mundorf oil caps is mostly in long term electronic environments of heat, and nobody has really been able to see if newer oil caps will hold up over a very long term or not deteriorate at all.. Speakers I would not be as concerned about leakage or floating from the value as much.
Hence my choice in going this route, the Oil Gold got a 11.5 rating nearly as high as the duelund in the speaker tests..
However the DTAC from clarity cap which is said to not sound like any other clarity cap got a 10.5 and these MR's should be just that much better...
I can tell you this, the MR is quite a bit different approach for sure, I bet they will for about half to 1/3rd the price in electronic applications be equal or better than the duelunds. I used the SILVER oil Mundorfs in the electronics, Great hi's and mids, but bass was not as authoritative being in a Full range application like an electronic device putting out 5 hz to 50 khz for example..
Your Testing is very limited to simply a VERY limited frequency range in your speaker just feeding one DRIVER response at a time... That does not mean they are not great or superior in that single application as you have found they are that good, but for reliability, and for FULL signal unrestricted audio frequency handling, I believe this MR from clarity cap, and such types as VH caps, sonicap platinums, might just be slightly a cut above most of the mundorf and even possibly duelunds in this application for a few un-obvious to the passer by reasons.
I am planning to try your Duelunds in the copper foil VSF config on my own Klipsch horns.. I have full out Alpha core inductor and Jantzen superior caps in them now, The bass would benefit probably ZERO from using a duelund so leaving that alone I will change out my horn cap with the Duelund because I can believe they have that one more step of dimension and smoother noise floor, however I kind of refuse to use the Duelunds that you need to order special in 400 volt at double the price for an electronic application.. I am sure they would be fine, maybe a little magical, however due to the odd Shape, and the "Iffy" results in a full range electronic application, including the fact you will still have more caps changing the sound down the road in the speakers.. I will just believe the MR's will do a better job.
By the way the Jantzen superior caps for about 25% of the cost of mundorfs I believe a better value and sound overall, and are slightly smaller for installation.. you can see the praise on those as well at the humble hifi site, I just decided you can't put all your eggs in one basket of tone.. You are not the first to break ground on the duelunds sounding excellent in hi frequency transducer applications. So I believe you that they are special and worth a shot even at the obscene prices, which by the way I need to use duelund because they are the only ones that will custom make any value you need, any other cap I can't really get it. |
Very good Undertow.
I was interested in how some people like high resonating caps. Like my friend when he first heard the comparison he like the perceived "fullness" of the sound. Massive distortion is what it is. After awhile he got frustrated with it but intitial reaction was good.
The vintage cans are a tin can and the sound sounds like it comes from a can resonating.
My friend did leave saying he could not believe the difference and thought it bigger than ANY amp (tube) vs. SS analog vs. digital difference of anything he ever heard.
Undertow as I understand this though Clarity Cap wants to keep the mass produced caps but with less resonating?
Undertow I can say that the vintage cap resonates like crazy and should with it's tin can shape but I sure do not hear resonate distortion on the Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil. I hear a plastized sound. This should get interesting. Is this a industry fighting back of changing the style of caps and saying we need same caps with less resonance? |
The first White papered Cap, first real tested cap against like 300 others.. The first it seems with real results on how or why sound changes from cap to cap, and its not electrical... Highly suggest reading the first link, and then Watching the second link which is a video of this.. Very cool stuff, I am currently installing these into a tube preamp.
http://madisound.com/pdf/claritycap/MRWhitePaper.pdf
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 |
Stormen ever tried the aluminum VSF's?
I think my vintage foils are aluminum. |
Thanks Stormen.
Just did not want people to think I am nuts, that the vintage and Duelund do sound similiar.
I was always confused by the vintage Klipsch magic. I thought it was horns. Then put in the Sonicaps and the speakers sounded "cheap". I was initially surprised by this.
I was also surprised that plastic caps plastized the sound. (not sure why I was surprised)
I am now likely to be on a mission after this is done to replace wire that is plastic coated. For sure in the speaker as it needs it anyway.
I had always wondered since getting the vintage amp and being very surprised by it, as to the "improvements" we have had in 40+ years. (Stereophile was "ga ga" over the sound) I have also noticed a lot of vintage amps that come up for sale after they have been "upgraded". Some will say I do not like the tone anymore. Is it the plastic caps? |
Volleyguy,
You should see the comment I made about the passive / active solutions in the context that many active filters in car stereo are DSP based, something I don't consider ideal.
I've heard both passive and active systems featuring Duelund components, both types have sounded great to me.
Regarding your statement about the vintage part of the Duelund design I agree completely. One would do well to remember, that the shift from metalfilm caps in paper and oil or wax to what we have today in the metallized designs, did not happen because of the quality in sound reproduction, but because they are smaller and cheaper to manufacture. As I see it, the Duelund caps are in effect good well proven tech taken bang into the 21st century. |
Interesting note.
Ask the youngest daughter (the one who asks to go and sit in a stereo store for 2 hours no complaints listening to music) freaked the salesman out he just kept looking at her like what is she doing? I asked what she though of upstairs speakers she made a crinkly face (like static) and said the (Klipsch she meant) sound much better.
So I asked her for left and right speaker she had a puzzled look like what's the difference?
So that's when I started listening to both speakers same time. No timing issues. She is right in a way they do sound the same. The Duelund's are a wayyyy lower noise version of the same thing. But shouldn't they be as they are both the same style? Neither has plastic. The vintage are wild but "real" and the Duelund's are civilized much more detailed and yet still "real".
But the common thread is both sound "real" instruments on neither sound like plastic. Is this what Steen was really doing modernizing an old idea? He was a fan of vintage caps. |
Interesting note.
When I installed the Sonicaps (mids and tweeter) I could not listen to both speakers at the same time. They sounded like to speakers out of phase one going in while one going out. With the Duelund I have done most "voiceing" on one speaker but it is not hard to listen to both. Anyone care to speculate why? the speed? is the same on the two natural caps?
I can listen to the Duelund and vintage speakers together and they sound very good together. why? Yes the Duelund is better in every way but they are cut from the same cloth.
My goal was to keep the original sound and found the Duelund to be the closest.
Is this Steen's talk about speakers being in phase?
Is it plastic?
Is it the cap speed?
One thing it is real. Vintage foil in oil matches closely Duelund Virtual Stack Foil.
I can try with the Mundorf's to see if it was just the Sonicaps or Poly caps in general but it is unmistakable.
In past post you will see me comment on the two different systems. |
If you want a pic of the massive oris rig email. Used 2 watt 45 SET on horn array on bass horns used a 18 watt set. On loudspeaker like I mostly use SET are the most musical and real sounding. I try most every thing end up back in the SET and horn camp. |
